View Full Version : P30/hk45
Reading LAV's thread that is a sticky above says that there were a few things that HK germany didn't get quite right in final production of the hk45&P30's, that Dave Bowie can fix.
After sending him an email I got back a response I completely didn't expert. He basically said the P30 sucks and the trigger is a crappy design that he can't really do much improvement on. I thought he might have been having a grumpy day and dismissed it but then another HK owner received a similar email.
While i completely understand the issues people have with stock HK triggers. Do you really think the trigger is that terrible? There are a few companies that do really good trigger jobs on the hk45/P30's.
(This isn't a discussion of striker vs. Hammer.) :)
F-Trooper05
03-01-12, 11:57
HK triggers suck, and there's really not much to debate. Other than Grey Guns, I'm not aware of any reputable place that can do much for them (and even then you're looking at the cost of a used Glock). The trade off is you're getting probably the most bomber gun on the market. Some people see that as a fair trade. Others don't.
triggers are a personal preference
I bet Bowie prefers 1911s
hotrodder636
03-01-12, 12:43
I must be odd, because I have H&Ks, a Glock, and 1911s and though each has a different trigger, I don't think any of them "suck". Maybe I am just numb or ignorant as to what a "great" trigger feels like?:confused:
DanjojoUSMC
03-01-12, 12:46
There has to be a con for each brand, have to try them for your self and try to separate actual, experimental knowledge from other people's opinions to see which ones are exaggerated, taken lightly, or personal issues. Same time eyes open to what is getting hoisted up to glory and what is getting kicked around based on popularity/monetary reasons.
Some people will say reliability first and foremost only a little bit before or after saying they use/recommend Glock, M&P, etc. instead of HK because of the awful triggers. :ph34r:
Triggers are very subjective. The trigger I hate you might love
I bet Bowie prefers 1911s
based on what?
Some of the really early Bowie is alright (like "Space Oddity"), but not a huge fan of later albums. Had no idea that he cared about H&K triggers?
:haha:
Robb Jensen
03-01-12, 13:23
A few weeks ago I shot a P30 with a GrayGuns trigger job it was fantastic. I'd love to see how smooth and light he could get a LEM Ver4.
Despite loving HK pistols, and having shot ten of thousands of rounds thru the P30/HK45, their triggers do suck. While there might be the outlier who shoots the LEM better, give a standardized test to 100 shooters, and 95 of them will shoot a Glock or M&P better. The HK is accurate, reliable, and well made, and certainly a great firearm for someone that values its attributes.
Legion_Prime
03-01-12, 13:38
Some of the really early Bowie is alright (like "Space Oddity"), but not a huge fan of later albums. Had no idea that he cared about H&K triggers?
:haha:
That was the first thing I thought when I saw the thread title. :lol:
give a standardized test to 100 shooters, and 95 of them will shoot a Glock or M&P better.
Agree with the overall gist of your post.
One comment though: What kind of standardized test are you thinking of? Reason I bring that up is, the M&P 9 "accuracy issue." If accuracy would be any part of such a standard test, I would venture to guess that (even though I'm an M&P guy), the P30's would win at least in that part of the test.
G34Shooter
03-01-12, 13:44
Scott Folk of Apex Tactical Specialties (Ex-Grayguns smith) also can do trigger work to H&K's.
Reading LAV's thread that is a sticky above says that there were a few things that HK germany didn't get quite right in final production of the hk45&P30's, that Dave Bowie can fix.
After sending him an email I got back a response I completely didn't expert. He basically said the P30 sucks and the trigger is a crappy design that he can't really do much improvement on. I thought he might have been having a grumpy day and dismissed it but then another HK owner received a similar email.
While i completely understand the issues people have with stock HK triggers. Do you really think the trigger is that terrible? There are a few companies that do really good trigger jobs on the hk45/P30's.
(This isn't a discussion of striker vs. Hammer.) :)
They are not terrible, but they can be improved on. DA/SA is not easy to shoot anyway, and HK rendition can use some clean-up.
HK45 LEM out of box is a very nice trigger, as long as you're OK with LEM in general. P30 LEM has a long reset and that can be something they should be able to do right at HK, but they don't.
I can't and won't comment on David's opinion. As far as "nothing can be done", well, I have a Bruce Gray P30 LEM on me right now that has very smooth travel, nice break and reset half of what it was out of the box.
An entirely separate discussion is how much all of these niceties actually improve performance over stock. Doing some comparisons, I have found some unusual things...
In all due respect, I think folks tend to allocate more blame to triggers than to themselves. Objectively, LEM is not an easy trigger system to master, and I'll be the first to admit it. However, I don't understand people's desire to make a Glock trigger out of LEM. Would it be nice, yes, is it possible, no, either take it and learn it or leave it.
And, as far as HK's DA/SA trigger poo-pooing goes, I am yet to hear somebody say they can bang targets away at will with Sig's DA/SA but can't with HK's...
triggers are a personal preference
I bet Bowie prefers 1911s
This. I have an HkP30 that was sent off to Gray for a trigger job.
Granted I was a little pissed buying a P30 and then turning around and dropping a couple hundred more on a trigger job, shipping, etc. But now it is a perfect pistol and I am happy.... just a little lighter in the wallet.
:lol:
I don't think even the most avid and rabid Hk fanboys brag about the trigger.
It is just kind of a given. No secret there.
I must be odd, because I have H&Ks, a Glock, and 1911s and though each has a different trigger, I don't think any of them "suck". Maybe I am just numb or ignorant as to what a "great" trigger feels like?:confused:
Just go out and shoot your 1911 - that will remind you!
john
(PS - Sorry, had to say it:)
Just go out and shoot your 1911 - that will remind you!
john
(PS - Sorry, had to say it:)
..That is if you can find a 1911 that is both reliable and accurate for under $3,000.
Sorry, had to say it. :)
Yeah when you think 3-4 H&K P30's = 1 Nighthawk... :eek:
Radioflyer
03-01-12, 15:44
I'm curious exactly what greyguns does to the trigger. How does it feel? Shorter reset?
This. I have an HkP30 that was sent off to Gray for a trigger job.
Granted I was a little pissed buying a P30 and then turning around and dropping a couple hundred more on a trigger job, shipping, etc. But now it is a perfect pistol and I am happy.... just a little lighter in the wallet.
:lol:
Well I guess the comments about the HK trigger confirm what I always thought about them, and about the leading combat pistols on the market: you have to upgrade most of these pistols regardless, to get them to optimal performance. If it's not the trigger, it's something else, the barrel, the grips, the sights, whatever.
Given that, I guess I'll just stick with my M&P 9's until the Apex (or S&W?) fixes for the barrel and/or locking block become available.
I have a H&K P30 LEM v1 trigger.
My impressions: the take-up could be smoothed out. The reset is a bit too long. The actual break is only about 5lbs though and has a much cleaner break than my brand new Gen 4 Glock 19 (which has a ton of creep). It doesn't feel as nice as my broken in Gen 3 Glock, but my impression is that things should smooth out nicely over time.
This is not news. It has already been proven that all pistols do in fact suck. So quit complaining.
I'm curious exactly what greyguns does to the trigger. How does it feel? Shorter reset?
I had a P30 with the "Reduced reset" trigger by Greygun's and i was underwhelmed. The reset was much shorter, but still had take up before the break at reset. And the reset was weak and indistinct. I much prefer a stock Glock trigger, so i sold the P30. After hearing so much praise for Greygun's trigger work, i was surprised that it wasn't better. Greygun's is the best you can do with an HK trigger i suppose.
I had a P30 with the "Reduced reset" trigger by Greygun's and i was underwhelmed. The reset was much shorter, but still had take up before the break at reset. And the reset was weak and indistinct. I much prefer a stock Glock trigger, so i sold the P30. After hearing so much praise for Greygun's trigger work, i was surprised that it wasn't better. Greygun's is the best you can do with an HK trigger i suppose.
In their reduced reset package, they don't specify the strength of reset. Since almost everybody asks for lower trigger pull, they modify/replace springs and one of those easily modifiable is a trigger return spring. Going to V1 variant of LEM involves replacing that spring, and V1 has the lightest trigger pull. With that, one can't eat the cake and have it - the pull will go down but reset will become weaker.
1911 has a longest history of customization. In 1911 world it is generally expected that a discerning customer who shells out good money knows what he wants. If he doesn't, then perhaps upfront discussion with gunsmith is warranted. I don't see why it should be any different with HK. When I sent mine to Bruce, I specifically indicated I wanted short and positive reset and TRS was not to be touched, and that's exactly what I got back.
In their reduced reset package, they don't specify the strength of reset. Since almost everybody asks for lower trigger pull, they modify/replace springs and one of those easily modifiable is a trigger return spring. Going to V1 variant of LEM involves replacing that spring, and V1 has the lightest trigger pull. With that, one can't eat the cake and have it - the pull will go down but reset will become weaker.
1911 has a longest history of customization. In 1911 world it is generally expected that a discerning customer who shells out good money knows what he wants. If he doesn't, then perhaps upfront discussion with gunsmith is warranted. I don't see why it should be any different with HK. When I sent mine to Bruce, I specifically indicated I wanted short and positive reset and TRS was not to be touched, and that's exactly what I got back.
I bought the P30 from a member of HKPro. Bruce Grey has mentioned that the travel before the break at reset, can not be eliminated without compromising reliability.
I have a new V3, I changed the FPB spring with the lighter one and a lighter wolf hammer spring. I have thousands of rounds through it now without any malfunctions but still my biggest complain is the long reset. That and the creep are really my only complaints.
I still shoot it better than all of my other da/sa pistols and it's still the only brand pistol that I haven't had to send back to the manufacturer. That says something to me.
I bought the P30 from a member of HKPro. Bruce Grey has mentioned that the travel before the break at reset, can not be eliminated without compromising reliability.
Yes, pretravel is not modifiable. I asked about it too. It is though not much different from a DA pull, although it is much lighter and should be manageable. Your reset concern, though, should've been fixable with a stronger trigger return spring.
I have a new V3, I changed the FPB spring with the lighter one and a lighter wolf hammer spring. I have thousands of rounds through it now without any malfunctions but still my biggest complain is the long reset. That and the creep are really my only complaints.
I still shoot it better than all of my other da/sa pistols and it's still the only brand pistol that I haven't had to send back to the manufacturer. That says something to me.
Do you have an access to a da/sa sig with srt?
buckshot1220
03-01-12, 18:02
I wouldn't say the triggers suck, needs improvement sums it up though. Both of my HKs have the LEM trigger, and although the reset is a bit long, it is more than acceptable for carry/duty use.
That being said, the grip and controls of the post-USP pistols fit my hands better than most pistols on the market today, and have proven to be amazingly reliable in my experiences. That is why I continue to buy them. I still think a Gen. 3 Glock 9mm is an excellent choice for most, and offers a better factory trigger, however they do not fit my small hands and once I account for a grip redux I could just buy an HK that fits me and doesn't need to be sent right out for mods.
Lastly, there are very few guns on the market that don't have a number of companies providing parts and modifications to make it "better." Faulting an HK for not having a fantastic factory trigger when a large part of your business involves reducing the grip frame of a competitor's gun so it will fit in someone's hand appropriately seems contradictory and biased to me.
Do you have an access to a da/sa sig with srt?
Yes, P226 TacOps in 9mm. It's already been back to Sig twice. The first problem was with a bent trigger bar, the second & third problems were mag related.
The first time they replaced the mags with the cheap Made in the USA mags. The second time they replaced 6 of my mags with the Mec-gar versions.
My TacOps was my absolute favorite pistol of all time even having the issues I had. When I got my P30L, I shot it better, it carried easier and it was lighter so it won out as my daily carry/training pistol. (Even with the worst trigger I have ever felt) I carried the TacOps everyday for almost a year.
I'll own more Sigs eventually but I really want to hear better things about their QC first.
After sending him an email I got back a response I completely didn't expert. He basically said the P30 sucks and the trigger is a crappy design that he can't really do much improvement on. I thought he might have been having a grumpy day and dismissed it but then another HK owner received a similar email.
That other owner was me. I was taken back by his response BUT appreciate the honesty!
This. I have an HkP30 that was sent off to Gray for a trigger job.
Granted I was a little pissed buying a P30 and then turning around and dropping a couple hundred more on a trigger job, shipping, etc. But now it is a perfect pistol and I am happy.... just a little lighter in the wallet.
:lol:
Dammit! The more I read this the lighter my wallet will get. Both because of Gray Guns' prices and bc that long without the HK will probably result in my buying another. :)
This is not news. It has already been proven that all pistols do in fact suck. So quit complaining.
Can you rephrase? Your post makes absolutely no sense.
Reading LAV's thread that is a sticky above says that there were a few things that HK germany didn't get quite right in final production of the hk45&P30's, that Dave Bowie can fix.
After sending him an email I got back a response I completely didn't expert. He basically said the P30 sucks and the trigger is a crappy design that he can't really do much improvement on. I thought he might have been having a grumpy day and dismissed it but then another HK owner received a similar email.
While i completely understand the issues people have with stock HK triggers. Do you really think the trigger is that terrible? There are a few companies that do really good trigger jobs on the hk45/P30's.
(This isn't a discussion of striker vs. Hammer.) :)
He was being straight with you, I've talked at length with him about the P30 in particular, in fact he will go even further then that, he has told me that the two most revered men in HKville(whom he knows well)in truth aren't very fond of them at all, but hey, they are "paid" to be, so they affect fondness!
Bowie believes that HK pistols are extremely overrated, and he has told me that the P30 specifically, is a POS. ;)
So what pistol does he think is worthy of his favor?
So what pistol does he think is worthy of his favor?
Glock!
DanjojoUSMC
03-01-12, 22:13
which is ridiculous, of course
G34Shooter
03-01-12, 22:35
Btw guys it's Grayguns not Greyguns lol
Btw guys it's Grayguns not Greyguns lol
I kept wanting to make a Grey's Anatomy joke but figured my humor would have been lost in translation. :suicide:
Rattlehead
03-01-12, 23:03
I'm curious exactly what greyguns does to the trigger. How does it feel? Shorter reset?
Bruce has various modifications that can be done to them, give them a call and tell them what you're interested in and they'll help you out.
Btw guys it's Grayguns not Greyguns lol
That's right, it's GRAYGUNS!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7141/6810867849_ee74396fd1_z.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rattle_head/sets/72157629139602001/
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-01-12, 23:07
That's fine. David Bowie has pretty much sucked since the early 80s. "Dancing in the Streets" was a bridge too far.
He was being straight with you, I've talked at length with him about the P30 in particular, in fact he will go even further then that, he has told me that the two most revered men in HKville(whom he knows well)in truth aren't very fond of them at all, but hey, they are "paid" to be, so they affect fondness!
Bowie believes that HK pistols are extremely overrated, and he has told me that the P30 specifically, is a POS. ;)
Mr. Vickers I now how much you think of the HK 45 and HK 45C. I also know you are a fan of the Glock 19. But do you think the HK P30 9mm in it's light LEM variant is as good or better than the trusty G19?
Thanks
Yes I do - problem is you can almost buy 2 G19's for the price of one P30
For the money spent it is very difficult to beat a G17 or G19
Be safe
LAV
LAV on HK payroll too?
Alaskapopo
03-02-12, 00:35
Reading LAV's thread that is a sticky above says that there were a few things that HK germany didn't get quite right in final production of the hk45&P30's, that Dave Bowie can fix.
After sending him an email I got back a response I completely didn't expert. He basically said the P30 sucks and the trigger is a crappy design that he can't really do much improvement on. I thought he might have been having a grumpy day and dismissed it but then another HK owner received a similar email.
While i completely understand the issues people have with stock HK triggers. Do you really think the trigger is that terrible? There are a few companies that do really good trigger jobs on the hk45/P30's.
(This isn't a discussion of striker vs. Hammer.) :)
Yes HK triggers suck.
Pat
Alaskapopo
03-02-12, 00:37
Triggers are very subjective. The trigger I hate you might love
Not really. A good trigger is not heavy, not stacky or stagey, smooth with a short stroke and short reset. A heavy poor trigger makes good shooting harder.
Pat
Glock!
yeah, lol
It's the truth, he believes that the Glock-19 and the S&W M&P are both superior to their HK counterparts. I've known this for a long time, his opinions on HK pistols that is.
That's fine. David Bowie has pretty much sucked since the early 80s. "Dancing in the Streets" was a bridge too far.
:laugh:
I'm curious exactly what greyguns does to the trigger. How does it feel? Shorter reset?
The reset on my DA/SA was an absolute failure from factory. Sadly my P30 felt like ... a toy?
After it has a quick reset and the trigger feels a little more crisp though nothing like you are going to get with an Ed Brown Custom or anything. But the trigger does break pretty well and the reset is good to go.
I would highly recommend. Just wish Hk would get it right especially for such an expensive little pistol!
Alaskapopo
03-02-12, 01:46
It's the truth, he believes that the Glock-19 and the S&W M&P are both superior to their HK counterparts. I've known this for a long time, his opinions on HK pistols that is.
I agree with him. I prefer Glock to HK and I have owned both and kept my Glocks. HK makes good pistols but certain things are lacking such as a high bore axis and a shitty trigger. I have also shot M&P's and prefer then to HK. I am not a HK hater and I do plan on buying a HK45 to have it in my collection. I just hate their triggers and the high bore axis. If I get the HK I will get the cocked and locked variant only and see who does trigger work on them.
Pat
That's fine. David Bowie has pretty much sucked since the early 80s. "Dancing in the Streets" was a bridge too far.
:laugh:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/bowie-jareth-1.jpg
gtmtnbiker98
03-02-12, 08:21
Everybody has their opinion and are rightly entitled to said opinion. Working on an HK trigger exceeds most gunsmith's ability and/or patience. That is why Bruce Gray is the only one that comes highly recommended for HK trigger work.
I don't get what all the whining is about. I recently switched from a G17 w/3.5lb connector and a very well worn and polished trigger parts, and I prefer the LEM trigger in my P30. The lighter FPB spring, standard v3 mainspring and heavy TRS gives me a pull weight right in the ideal range for a carry pistol with a clean, rolling break and a reset that is long, but super forceful and fast.
It doesn't affect my performance on timed drills vs the g17 (which I have about 10x the range time with) and I have started to turn in some personal bests. The sights are easy to track, the gun returns to the same position after recoil, the trigger is easy to manipulate at speed, and the controls are the best out there IMO. Add in the rep for reliability and the best priced mags of any HK and I don't see what "sucks" about the P30.
Gary1911A1
03-02-12, 09:42
I have a HK45 Dave did a Vickers Package and a Trigger Job on. While the DA is better it's not as good as some of my out of the box Sigs or Third Generation S&Ws'. Dave told me he couldn't improve it much. I do have a P2000 I put a lighter mainspring in which feels much better without any misfires.
I think the trigger on my HK45 and my USP's is just fine. Mind you I meant that with as little enthusiasm as possible. The trigger on my Nighthawk is freaking sweet, but I'm also very very accustomed to my HKs.
The guns work when I press the trigger, that's more important to me.
I think that part of the issue is people spending less time with DA/SA due to the emergence of reliable striker-fired pistols with lighter and often smoother triggers. I know that some of me skills at mastering the DA trigger pull his eroded since I began carrying a G19 a few years ago. When I go back to a DA/SA trigger such as before a deployment, I find that I have to spend more and more time practicing my technique to re-master that DA pull as I spend more time away from the platform.
As for HK specifically, I think that they have an average factory trigger when compared to other DA/SA pistols. Other pistols such as Beretta and Sig may be a little easier to improve the trigger pull by switching the hammer spring. I do think that the P30 is going to take a hit in sales as the Walther PPQ becomes more popular. It has ergos comparable to the P30 with a crisp factory trigger and excellent reset.
:laugh:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/bowie-jareth-1.jpg
That made me piss myself a little I laughed so hard.
Bowie is picking on Todd Green's favorite pistol. :eek:
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-02-12, 20:41
I remember when the Glock came out everybody hated the trigger. They said it was mushy and sproingy, etc. amazing how what is common becomes what is good.
While I know I could shoot better with a striker, I feel safer carrying a DA/SA. So I choose that learning curve.
I'm not a gamer or a trainer so the benefits of a Striker pistol are lost on me.
I have dozens of pistols to which include several striker fired pistols like the new PPQ and an M&P.357sig. They just aren't safe enough for me. ...correction, I'm not safe enough with them and if for some strange reason a time comes where not all the safety rules can happen either through coincidence or negligence, I want the added safety of a long DA pull.
I'm willing to put in the trigger time to be efficient with them. YMMV One has to realize my intended purpose with a pistol will NEVER be to make a sniper kill at distance. Any civilian that thinks that is either fooling themselves or just plain silly.
but like I said, this thread isn't about Hammer vs. Striker.
Alaskapopo
03-02-12, 23:06
While I know I could shoot better with a striker, I feel safer carrying a DA/SA. So I choose that learning curve.
I'm not a gamer or a trainer so the benefits of a Striker pistol are lost on me.
I have dozens of pistols to which include several striker fired pistols like the new PPQ and an M&P.357sig. They just aren't safe enough for me. ...correction, I'm not safe enough with them and if for some strange reason a time comes where not all the safety rules can happen either through coincidence or negligence, I want the added safety of a long DA pull.
I'm willing to put in the trigger time to be efficient with them. YMMV One has to realize my intended purpose with a pistol will NEVER be to make a sniper kill at distance. Any civilian that thinks that is either fooling themselves or just plain silly.
but like I said, this thread isn't about Hammer vs. Striker.
With respect safety is not a function of the trigger action of your firearm but rather of your training and ability to use it. If you keep your finger off the trigger the gun will not fire. If you break this rule you will have a ND sooner or later even with a 20 pound double action only pistol. That is the reality. Not sure what you are talking about when you say a sniper shot. However don't fool yourself into thinking that if you are ever involved in a gun fight it will meet the average of less than 7 yards with less than 3 rounds fired yada yada. The reality is there is no such thing as an average gun fight. I know a trooper who was fired on by a rifled armed suspect at 35 yards. He returned fire and hit the suspect 6 out of 8 times with his issued Smith and Wesson 4006 pistol. 35 yards is a hell of a lot more than 7 yards. There is no average situation and you should train to deal with the worst not the best. Training should always be set up to be harder than real life when it comes to the shooting skill. You don't want to find yourself in a situation you have never trained for.
pat
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-03-12, 00:03
With respect safety is not a function of the trigger action of your firearm but rather of your training and ability to use it. If you keep your finger off the trigger the gun will not fire.
This is most, but not all, of the story. The lighter the trigger, the less take-up, etc the more susceptible the gun is to negligent discharge. A DAO Beretta is a safer gun than a Glock. A Glock with a NY2 trigg is safer than a Glock with a 3.5 connector. But i agree, all of them are unsafe in the hands of morons.
davebee456
03-03-12, 00:36
toggles on jackets, those stupid things that hang off the side of rain jackets are just as bad as a finger, With Glocks I try to be extra careful of my clothing getting caught in the trigger, even a long shirt can get in there wrong
Alaskapopo
03-03-12, 02:21
This is most, but not all, of the story. The lighter the trigger, the less take-up, etc the more susceptible the gun is to negligent discharge. A DAO Beretta is a safer gun than a Glock. A Glock with a NY2 trigg is safer than a Glock with a 3.5 connector. But i agree, all of them are unsafe in the hands of morons.
With respect no it is not safer. The gun is not safer with a heavier pull. More ND's were logged with LEO's using DA revolvers than their have been with semi autos. Its 100% a training issue. Dr. Enoka work shows this to be true. If your finger is on the trigger and you are startled or lose your balance etc you will have more than enough hand strength out of reflex to pull the trigger even on a da gun. If your finger is not on the trigger and you have a 2 ounce olympic hair trigger the gun will still not fire.
Pat
Alaskapopo
03-03-12, 02:22
toggles on jackets, those stupid things that hang off the side of rain jackets are just as bad as a finger, With Glocks I try to be extra careful of my clothing getting caught in the trigger, even a long shirt can get in there wrong
Again a training issue. 1. Don't reholster in a rush. 2. sweep said clothing out of the way.
Pat
Yeah when you think 3-4 H&K P30's = 1 Nighthawk... :eek:
And that's just how many P30s you'll want after sampling one, too! :)
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-03-12, 08:41
Alaskapopo,
So It is your position that a police department that issues 200 officers guns with 2oz hair triggers will have equal, or possibly fewer negligent discharges than an agency issuing an equal number of similar pistols with a 12 pound double action Triggers?
I don't know how M4c likes to respect threads straying to far off topic but I never wanted this to be about Hammer vs. Striker. ..probably inevitable I guess.
The thing is, Hammer guns have been getting the job done for a long time and I don't feel under gunned or under trained. It's what many prefer.
Another question for the group. What do you guys think about the idea that an HK trigger system is more reliable than all the rest? Truth or lore?
Nephrology
03-03-12, 10:16
Another question for the group. What do you guys think about the idea that an HK trigger system is more reliable than all the rest? Truth or lore?
I have literally no idea why this would be the case. Triggers are very rarely involved in pistol malfunctions unless there is a factory defect. 9/10 malfunctions will be in the feedway.
Alaskapopo,
So It is your position that a police department that issues 200 officers guns with 2oz hair triggers will have equal, or possibly fewer negligent discharges than an agency issuing an equal number of similar pistols with a 12 pound double action Triggers?
The 2 oz trigger example is a bit extreme but I understand Pat's point about trigger discipline. I agree with him that a Glock with a NY trigger is not inherently safer than a Glock with a factory "-" trigger, which is really closer to 4.5 pounds than the original claim of 3.5. The take up and reset features of the Glocks makes them all very safe to me.
Another question for the group. What do you guys think about the idea that an HK trigger system is more reliable than all the rest? Truth or lore?
Depends on what's meant by "reliable". There is a belief that hammer-fired guns hit primers stronger. I can attest to it on anecdotal level as my Glock 19 couldn't handle a particular batch of hard primers while P30 had no issues with them. So, perhaps, they do offer an additional margin here, just like they offer an additional margin of safety during handling.
HK benefits:
1. Consistently reliable
2. Superior / ergonomic grip
Before I add more benefits, I'd mention one borderline negative. HK muzzle flips higher. It makes sight tracking harder, but for those who can track them well the speed of follow-up shots is not affected.
Now, additional pros:
3. Grip is not only ergonomic, but adaptable to a wide variety of shooters, with 27 possible grip combinations for P30.
4. Truly ambidextrous.
5. Consistently more intrinsically accurate than Glocks.
6. Ability to keep hammer down with thumb provides additional margin of safety during handling.
P.S. You edited your post and added more stuff as I typed mine.
Before I add more benefits, I'd mention one borderline negative. HK muzzle flips higher. It makes sight tracking harder, but for those who can track them well the speed of follow-up shots is not affected.
Now, additional pros:
3. Grip is not only ergonomic, but adaptable to a wide variety of shooters, with 27 possible grip combinations for P30.
4. Truly ambidextrous.
5. Consistently more intrinsically accurate than Glocks.
6. Ability to keep hammer down with thumb provides additional margin of safety during handling.
P.S. You edited your post and added more stuff as I typed mine.
Lets talk about muzzle flip for a moment. I own two HK's, a P30L (Currently with Doug from ATEi (http://ateiguns.com/)) and a P2000 SK. The SK flips the same amount as my G26/SR9c and the P30L is about the same as my M&P or my old SR9. (I think the SR9 is an under rated pistol but that's something for another time.)
I have never shot any of the USP (or any other HK) so I can't speak to those.
The P series just gets it right to me in every way except the terrible reset. (At least my two)
I am very meticulous on my shooting grip because I know I suck at shooting and I have to concentrate on something while shooting.
Can anyone conclusively say or show that the glock has a lower bore axis? ..I'm assuming that bore axis is what causes MF to be felt more in one pistols than another of the same size. Feel free to correct me. Obviously, I am not any sort of expert on pistols or marksmanship.
Alaskapopo,
So It is your position that a police department that issues 200 officers guns with 2oz hair triggers will have equal, or possibly fewer negligent discharges than an agency issuing an equal number of similar pistols with a 12 pound double action Triggers?
Greg, I'd appreciate your thoughts on my line of thinking for this issue. I've always thought of ND's occurring in two types of categories.
The first is a failure to clear the chamber before intentionally pulling the trigger. The prototypical case being the genius DEA agent of YouTube fame who put one in his thigh in front of a classroom full of kids. This seems to be by far the most common ND in the military as inexperienced soldiers retract the slide/charging handle without removing the magazine at a clearing station. This results in a ND when the soldier squeezes the trigger with the muzzle in the clearing barrel. Heavier triggers do not reduce the instance of this ND since pulling the trigger is a voluntary action.
The second type of ND occurs when a finger (or other object such as clothing) strayes into the trigger guard. A classic example was the unfortunate man who shot and killed himself recently while Mexican carrying a Glock. In this instance a heavier trigger is more helpful in reducing the incidence of ND because pulling the trigger is not a voluntary action. I'd argue that SERPA holsters contribute to this category of ND. If training factors are held constant, the incidence of ND is inversely proportional trigger weight to a point of exponential deminishing returns somewhere around 15 lbs. Excluding childhood firearms incidents, this category of ND is proportionally more injurious because the muzzle is often pointed in an unsafe direction or deployed in the line of duty.
When it comes to HK pistols and Glocks, I'd expect them to have a similar number of the first type of ND's. However, the relative incidence of ND's for the second type would be Glock > LEM>DA.
When I shoot my P30 and my MP back to back, it is clearly visible that MP flips less. I've had another P30 user confirm this. I've not timed MP.
I haven't shot my G19 for a while now, but I think it subjectively felt as less flip too. I've timed P30 and Glock extensively, and there is no difference in splits for me on low prob targets. On high probability targets I may get maybe 0.03-0.04 sec faster with Glock, but it is neither signifcant for me nor it is large enough to be explained by gun only and not by variance in my performance.
What I do see more often with P30 is overrunning my sights on high prob targets and pressing the shot earlier than sights returning into a hit zone. I get a bit more high misses with P30, which is a function of sight tracking.
Any discussion about bore height andd its effect on follow-up shots is meaningless without objective data of timed splits and % hits.
Alaskapopo
03-04-12, 00:55
Alaskapopo,
So It is your position that a police department that issues 200 officers guns with 2oz hair triggers will have equal, or possibly fewer negligent discharges than an agency issuing an equal number of similar pistols with a 12 pound double action Triggers?
Its my position that if you fail to train your folks bad things will happen. The most dangerious guys I knew were old timers trained on revolvers because they ran around with their finger on the trigger and it was hard to beat this habit out of them. New York had Glock install 12 pound triggers on their guns to cut back on ND's but they still have them. Its a training issue not an equipment one. The defining element is the shooter not the gun in safety.
Pat
Alaskapopo
03-04-12, 00:57
The 2 oz trigger example is a bit extreme but I understand Pat's point about trigger discipline. I agree with him that a Glock with a NY trigger is not inherently safer than a Glock with a factory "-" trigger, which is really closer to 4.5 pounds than the original claim of 3.5. The take up and reset features of the Glocks makes them all very safe to me.
The 2 oz trigger was to make a point that its the shooter not the gun that has the biggest influence over safety or lack of.
Pat
I am in the small minority then, because I don't think HK triggers are crappy at all, and overall nothing shoots for me like a P30.
I am in the small minority then, because I don't think HK triggers are crappy at all, and overall nothing shoots for me like a P30.
I am in the small minority then, because I don't think HK triggers are crappy at all, and overall nothing shoots for me like a P30.
Ditto. Reading all this cracks me up. The only thing I'd for sure change is the trigger guard channel.
OP, I don't know who David Bowie is or why I should care what he likes or dislikes.
I'm perfectly capable of forming my own opinions based on my own experience. Perhaps when you get a bit more experience you'll be able to do the same.
FWIW, my DA/SA P30 with light TRS, light FPBS and 12lb Wolff main spring is smoother than the factory set-up, and breaks at 4.0 lbs in SA and 8.7 lbs in DA. Its a noticable improvement over the factory V3 that broke at 10.0 lbs in DA and 5.0 lbs in SA. Many variants can be improved/personalized without dropping big bucks on a trigger job. You can train right through the other issues.
With the Glock Gen4 reliability issues and the M&P "early unlock" accuracy problem the P30 trigger looks pretty good in comparison.
At least the P30 functions and shoots groups instead of patterns.
:suicide2:
who cares what david bowie thinks of the p-30? he is an aging rock star.....
having had 2x p30s and a p2000sk, i can attest that their triggers ,from my expereince, suck!
and yes, i prefer the gen4 glocks to any of my now sold pistols, including the hks, ppqs,m&ps.....
and btw, the hks were not completely trouble- free either.....
I surfed this entire thread hoping to see a response from Bowie himself, he is a member here.
For whatever it's worth I've got quite a few Hk pistols and Glock pistols. The standard DA on the HK's is, without argument, a long heavy nightmare. Single action has always been OK for me. But The light LEM system is where I finally found the perfect home with the gun. Yes it does still have a longer initial uptake but I've learned to live with it without incident.
I have one friend that has a P30 back from Grayguns. It is very nice.
I've read so much about bore axis over the years at some point I forgot how much it doesn't seem to matter to me in use. In fact I forgot about the comparison at all when running the HK's.
However, that said, I do "like" the lower sitting balance of the Glock more. It's just not so much an actual issue in use that I've found.
We all know that ones weapon preference and in this case pistols seems to be like ones religion, everybody (SME'S included) has their current preference and nobody likes to hear anything negative about it. IMHO, if your pistol or weapon is reliable, durable and you can hit with it, I would not worry about what name is on the side of it or about what (anyone) says about it. Just about any trigger system can be mastered, its just that some can be mastered with a lot less effort. Just like Ford vs Chevy, their is no one perfect pistol or brand for everybody, and never will be, they all have pro and cons, which are (your) personal preferences.
.....and btw, the hks were not completely trouble- free either.....
You just be speaking for yourself as the pages in 'semi-auto' (albeit a small sampling) point to quite the contrary. And my personal experience aligns with that representation.
I may be a bit jaded though as I had to fiddle with my G19 to get it to be functional. And even then caught casings to the face.
ETA: we all banter based on preference and perception. And maybe some learning occurs. That said, the genesis of these debates are based on us being blessed consumers in this great country; with seemingly limitless choices in caliber, capacity, price point, etc. :D
You just be speaking for yourself as the pages in 'semi-auto' (albeit a small sampling) point to quite the contrary. And my personal experience aligns with that representation.
I may be a bit jaded though as I had to fiddle with my G19 to get it to be functional. And even then caught casings to the face.
ETA: we all banter based on preference and perception. And maybe some learning occurs. That said, the genesis of these debates are based on us being blessed consumers in this great country; with seemingly limitless choices in caliber, capacity, price point, etc. :D
..but damn you if you don't agree with what I think.
:shout::suicide2:
Rolex_John
03-04-12, 12:58
So what pistol does he think is worthy of his favor?
Late last year I spoke to David on this topic. He and every other instructor at TDI I spoke to on this topic said about the only two pistols worth owning are Glocks and S&W M&P's.
Rolex_John
03-04-12, 13:06
While I know I could shoot better with a striker, I feel safer carrying a DA/SA. So I choose that learning curve.
I'm not a gamer or a trainer so the benefits of a Striker pistol are lost on me.
I have dozens of pistols to which include several striker fired pistols like the new PPQ and an M&P.357sig. They just aren't safe enough for me. ...correction, I'm not safe enough with them and if for some strange reason a time comes where not all the safety rules can happen either through coincidence or negligence, I want the added safety of a long DA pull.
I'm willing to put in the trigger time to be efficient with them. YMMV One has to realize my intended purpose with a pistol will NEVER be to make a sniper kill at distance. Any civilian that thinks that is either fooling themselves or just plain silly.
but like I said, this thread isn't about Hammer vs. Striker.
David addressed this issue too in our conversation. His feeling is there is no good reason to own a hammer fired weapon over a striker fired one, if for no other reason that someone who knows what they are doing can stick their hand/thumb in between the hammer and the gun rendering a hammer fired gun useless.
While I think that's a pretty low-risk scenario, the logic is sound.
buckshot1220
03-04-12, 13:54
David addressed this issue too in our conversation. His feeling is there is no good reason to own a hammer fired weapon over a striker fired one, if for no other reason that someone who knows what they are doing can stick their hand/thumb in between the hammer and the gun rendering a hammer fired gun useless.
While I think that's a pretty low-risk scenario, the logic is sound.
Someone could very well stick their finger behind the trigger of a striker fired gun and render it useless as well. Low-risk scenario...this borders more on Hollywood scenario. If they have the ability to do either one of those two, they'd also have the ability to retract the slide ever so slightly and put the gun out of battery. Endless scenarios for all different weapons.
Reminds me of the Jackie Chan (I think) movie from the 90's where he removes the slide from his enemy's pistol just before he can get a shot off.
I understand it is possible, but I don't think this should even be a consideration when choosing a pistol.
ETA: A little Youtube action revealed it was Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4 (though I swear there is a similar scene with Jackie Chan in an alley doing the same thing). Link below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adnXzutxWcQ
I'll be back when I'm done epoxying my takedown lever in place so this can't happen.:jester:
Nothing is ever going to be 100% for it's entirety. Two weeks ago while running drills with a couple friends my HK45C experienced a stoppage. Double feed to be exact. And that was with 230 factory ball ammo.
Never happened before, hasn't happened since. And the full size brother to it I own has, so far, had zero failures.
Reminds me of the Jackie Chan (I think) movie from the 90's where he removes the slide from his enemy's pistol just before he can get a shot off.
Rush Hour.
buckshot1220
03-04-12, 14:21
Nothing is ever going to be 100% for it's entirety. Two weeks ago while running drills with a couple friends my HK45C experienced a stoppage. Double feed to be exact. And that was with 230 factory ball ammo.
Never happened before, hasn't happened since. And the full size brother to it I own has, so far, had zero failures.
Agreed. I've had two malfs with my HK45C. Both were from the same box (ironically the only box I've ever bought) of Remington UMC 230gr. Failures to eject, I'm thinking the ammo was a little too light. Everything else, including my reloads, have been superb.
DanjojoUSMC
03-04-12, 14:48
It would be logical that some one who knows what they are doing goes for a simple, aggressive disarm instead of thumb blocking the hammer. If a gun or knife is threatening you, your brain won't be considering what brand or mechanism.
Some very strange, conjectural reasoning.
Late last year I spoke to David on this topic. He and every other instructor at TDI I spoke to on this topic said about the only two pistols worth owning are Glocks and S&W M&P's.
Just goes to show because you can teach a class doesn't mean you really know anything. That just might be the most ridiculous assertion I've ever heard.
Late last year I spoke to David on this topic. He and every other instructor at TDI I spoke to on this topic said (about) the only two pistols worth owning are Glocks and S&W M&P's.
I wonder if he meant out of the box or after he gets done working on them? IMHO in this last year both brands have been somewhat hit or miss in their quality control. Also here is a question asked to LAV in the "Ask the SME" section of this forum regarding the P30 and the G19.
P30 vs. G19
Mr. Vickers I now how much you think of the HK 45 and HK 45C. I also know you are a fan of the Glock 19. But do you think the HK P30 9mm in it's light LEM variant (is as good or better) than the trusty G19?
Thanks
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message
And his answer:
(Yes I do) - problem is you can almost buy 2 G19's for the price of one P30
For the money spent it is very difficult to beat a G17 or G19
Be safe
LAV
Someone could very well stick their finger behind the trigger of a striker fired gun and render it useless as well. Low-risk scenario...this borders more on Hollywood scenario. If they have the ability to do either one of those two, they'd also have the ability to retract the slide ever so slightly and put the gun out of battery. Endless scenarios for all different weapons.
Reminds me of the Jackie Chan (I think) movie from the 90's where he removes the slide from his enemy's pistol just before he can get a shot off.
I understand it is possible, but I don't think this should even be a consideration when choosing a pistol.
ETA: A little Youtube action revealed it was Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4 (though I swear there is a similar scene with Jackie Chan in an alley doing the same thing). Link below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adnXzutxWcQ
I'll be back when I'm done epoxying my takedown lever in place so this can't happen.:jester:
Ok, I call shenanigans on the Hollywood disarmament techniques. You could pull the slide off an original Beretta 92, but that was fixed in the late 1980's. The issue of someone 'pinning' the hammer to the frame and preventing the firing of a pistol is about as likely as being struck by lightening.
Now back on topic, I EDC an HK45c. The only issue I have with the HK is the trigger itself is it's a bit too flexible. Even in single action I can feel the flex in trigger before the gun fires. If someone would make an after market part that eliminates this issue I'd be a happy camper.
F-Trooper05
03-04-12, 16:29
Just goes to show because you can teach a class doesn't mean you really know anything. That just might be the most ridiculous assertion I've ever heard.
I like HK's too, but you might want to do a little research on the guy before you claim he doesn't know anything.
I recently got out of a DA/SA P30, primarily because the trigger was absolute shit. Strangely enough, the USP I shoot has a pretty nice trigger
gtmtnbiker98
03-04-12, 16:41
Late last year I spoke to David on this topic. He and every other instructor at TDI I spoke to on this topic said about the only two pistols worth owning are Glocks and S&W M&P's.
And when one of them wins a National Championship in either IDPA or USPSA then I will perhaps lend credibility to their opinion. Until then, I tend to make my own decisions on sidearms.
As much as those P30 triggers suck, I enjoy running circles around those who run the superior Glocks and M&Ps. Sorry folks, it isn't the gun, it's the idiot driving the gun that dictates performance.
buckshot1220
03-04-12, 16:43
Ok, I call shenanigans on the Hollywood disarmament techniques. You could pull the slide off an original Beretta 92, but that was fixed in the late 1980's. The issue of someone 'pinning' the hammer to the frame and preventing the firing of a pistol is about as likely as being struck by lightening.
Now back on topic, I EDC an HK45c. The only issue I have with the HK is the trigger itself is it's a bit too flexible. Even in single action I can feel the flex in trigger before the gun fires. If someone would make an after market part that eliminates this issue I'd be a happy camper.
I think you missed my sarcasm, I was basically saying all of those are BS reasons NOT to buy said pistol etc. and have little to no chance of happening in a real gun fight.
Agreed on the trigger. The FlexyMcFlexerstein trigger only worsens the issues most people complain about. A solid steel or aluminum trigger would get rid of the sponginess and faux creep.
Agree the H&K P30 trigger feels plasticy - even moreso than the Glock 19 (older broken in Gen 3 trigger). That said, I've been dry firing the P30 LEM V1 trigger a lot and think it is much better out of the box than the mushie rollie creepie trigger my Gen 4 Glock 19 & 26 came with.
I think the Bowie "hammer block" statement just shows that even very intelligent and otherwise capable people can hold on to silly notions or occasionally say something a bit stupid. I'm sure we've all done that and later realized "wow, why did I think that"
varoadking
03-04-12, 18:33
I recently got out of a DA/SA P30, primarily because the trigger was absolute shit.
Stick around...it won't be long before some jackass comes around and guarantees that it was just you... :sarcastic:
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-04-12, 19:04
It was just you!
Just goes to show because you can teach a class doesn't mean you really know anything. That just might be the most ridiculous assertion I've ever heard.
"Uhh" I think your opinion is far far less likely to sway other's opinions, then Mr Bowie's there sport. You might do yourself a favor and know who it is that you're talking about before getting yourself all wrapped up in emotion and just wading in! :stop:
Stick around...it won't be long before some jackass comes around and guarantees that it was just you... :sarcastic:
Well... I mean the SA wasn't too heavy...... After the 4 feet of take up!
"Uhh" I think your opinion is far far less likely to sway other's opinions, then Mr Bowie's there sport. You might do yourself a favor and know who it is that you're talking about before getting yourself all wrapped up in emotion and just wading in! :stop:
Great for him, I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion here "sport". I'm certainly entitled to state my opinion on the subject as well.
I'm also just as likely not to make such an ignorant statement about pistols being the only pistols worth owning, assuming the quote was accurate.
Bowie also claimed it was impossible to install a RDS on a P30 slide.
Mark Housel proved it can be done.
Maybe Mr. Bowie doesn't know as much about the P30 as he thought he did?
gtmtnbiker98
03-04-12, 20:16
Bowie also claimed it was impossible to install a RDS on a P30 slide.
Mark Housel proved it can be done.
Maybe Mr. Bowie doesn't know as much about the P30 as he thought he did?
Think you are on to something.
Bowie also claimed it was impossible to install a RDS on a P30 slide.
Mark Housel proved it can be done.
Maybe Mr. Bowie doesn't know as much about the P30 as he thought he did?
I think that David simply didn't want to get into something that would be more of a "science experiment" than a profitable addition to his business.
Nothing wrong with that.
Sgt Gold,
That is not trigger flex you are feeling it is sear creep. Order the LEM hammer strut spring and it will no longer be an issue... You pull weight will only feel marginally heavier but the break will feel crisp and clean. Of course if you really want to be impressed order the LEM kit, and convert it keeping the DA/SA trigger return spring (TRS) and firing pin block spring (FPB) but using the LEM hammer strut spring.
Sgt Gold,
That is not trigger flex you are feeling it is sear creep. Order the LEM hammer strut spring and it will no longer be an issue... You pull weight will only feel marginally heavier but the break will feel crisp and clean. Of course if you really want to be impressed order the LEM kit, and convert it keeping the DA/SA trigger return spring (TRS) and firing pin block spring (FPB) but using the LEM hammer strut spring.
Buuutt..... Since they charge out the ass why can't they just do it right? That's way too much work on a pistol that was already 800 bucks
They can do it right... it's called the LEM version. :lol:
Order it from H&K as a LEM and it costs you $0 extra bones.
Great for him, I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion here "sport". I'm certainly entitled to state my opinion on the subject as well.
I'm also just as likely not to make such an ignorant statement about pistols being the only pistols worth owning, assuming the quote was accurate.
Calling a man of Mr Bowie's stature "ignorant" is going to get you looked at, in all the wrong ways...
Nephrology
03-05-12, 06:20
Oh look, another thread where people are embroiled in an emotional tug of war over a gun because of something that someone in a position of authority said.
Maybe I've just been on the internet too long but I don't give a damn what the person next to me (or in this case 600 miles away) is shooting. I hope they like their gun and that it performs well for them. So long as nobody on M4c takes up punch-mugging for a hobby, I am pretty sure we are all on the same team here guys.
What a waste of time.
Let me ask this then, Is a shooter at a disadvantage with a P30L in carrying it daily and taking classes at MDFI, Tigerswan, etc?
This back and forth of the hammer vs. striker is tarded. I want to hear opinions of gun and durability of system.
Bowie doesn't like it, fine, it's a non issue now. ..although, I don't think LAV should be suggesting people send their guns to him if he (Bowie) hates it so much. I guess that's more of a personal thought though and doesn't have much bearing on anyone.
I chose the P30L over all of my other pistols because it is more accurate (for me) and it remindes me of an M&P but with a DA/SA trigger, which I prefer. YMMV
All guns have a bad trigger out of the box. ..except maybe my PPQ but I think that's a personal thing. Truth be told, stock, I'd rather own an SR9 than an M&P. The only reason I own an M&P is because of Dougs trigger at ATEi.
I have literally no idea why this would be the case. Triggers are very rarely involved in pistol malfunctions unless there is a factory defect. 9/10 malfunctions will be in the feedway.
I have yet to see modern HK pistol go full auto due to trigger malfunction or worn out parts. Glock, 1911s, CZs - see them all the time. I've also seen HK pistols with trigger in operating condition with broken springs, missing parts or wrongly installed parts (latter 2 owner or gunsmith fault).
Are HK triggers bad? Yes, they feel bad, but pistol goes bang (just one bang!) everytime I pull it.
P30 cons:
3. Very complex "overbuilt" system
4. High bore axis
Were is con in being overbuilt?
As to high bore axis myth. I'm not lighting fast shooter looking for 0.08s splits, I'm not very strong as well, but here is me shooting P30L (more "flippy" than P30) with 140+ power factor ammo (Geco 124gr) and LEM (V0 + heavy return spring). Filmed in 60fps, do not look or fell very flippy for me.
http://youtu.be/tDXNwRUwC2I
Were is con in being overbuilt?
I put overbuilt in quotes, because it is not clear that an H&K is infact more reliable than a "classic" Gen 2 / 3 Glock.
Todd Green's test shows over 80k rounds, but so do other Glock torture tests.
The negative is that it is much more difficult to maintain, detail strip, and act as your own armorer with an H&K than a Glock. The Glock can literally be taken apart with a ball point pen, and parts are cheap and numerous.
So I wonder if our special op guys are using Glocks, M&P'S or ? as their sidearms ?
As to high bore axis myth. I'm not lighting fast shooter looking for 0.08s splits, I'm not very strong as well, but here is me shooting P30L (more "flippy" than P30) with 140+ power factor ammo (Geco 124gr) and LEM (V0 + heavy return spring). Filmed in 60fps, do not look or fell very flippy for me.
http://youtu.be/tDXNwRUwC2I
Off topic, but man does it feel awkward for me to watch something being done left handed.
I recently detail stripped a P30 to replace a sear spring that partially broke at 16K rounds. It required a single punch and just a few minutes of my time to break it down. It was easy. While I was in there I also found a bent hammer strut. The pistol was 100% functional, and the only clue to the sear spring issue was a floppy control lever I noticed while cleaning it. The hammer strut was in stock at HKparts, but the sear spring (and three spares) took about two weeks to locate.
Sgt Gold,
That is not trigger flex you are feeling it is sear creep. Order the LEM hammer strut spring and it will no longer be an issue... You pull weight will only feel marginally heavier but the break will feel crisp and clean. Of course if you really want to be impressed order the LEM kit, and convert it keeping the DA/SA trigger return spring (TRS) and firing pin block spring (FPB) but using the LEM hammer strut spring.
I did some dry firing with an LEM equipped HK45c. I think the system is interesting but I prefer to have the option of using single action when I want to.
As to the sear creep, I do feel a small bit of creep when breaking a shot SA. Starting with the trigger and hammer all the way forward, taking all the slack out of the linkage, there is 1\16" of flex to the tip of the trigger before the hammer starts to move rearward. The flex is greatest at the tip of the trigger, and almost non existent at the top. None the less it's there, and there is no reason for it other than HK didn't design the trigger correctly.
I recently detail stripped a P30 to replace a sear spring that partially broke at 16K rounds. It required a single punch and just a few minutes of my time to break it down. It was easy. While I was in there I also found a bent hammer strut. The pistol was 100% functional, and the only clue to the sear spring issue was a floppy control lever I noticed while cleaning it. The hammer strut was in stock at HKparts, but the sear spring (and three spares) took about two weeks to locate.
you could have shipped it to HK as well.
Their customer service is excellent
you could have shipped it to HK as well.
Their customer service is excellent
At a cost to of over $100 in shipping charges alone. Technically, I'd voided my warranty by shooting reloads and installing different springs on my own. Instead of playing cat and mouse over shipping charges and warranty issues with the good folks at HK CS, I kept posession of a fully functional pistol while waiting for $25 in parts and spares to arrive for an easy fix. I might have shipped it off for this and the prior mods if I were concerned with voiding the warranty, though.
Seems the P30 trigger gets too bad a rap. Yes the P30s stock trigger leaves a lot to be desired. If you're standing at the LGS counter comparing resets 'to feel', something like a Glock will definitely feel better. If you reset using muscle memory during follow through, I don't think you'd notice a damn bit of difference. I haven't.
The DA trigger on my V3 was heavy and a little stagey. A $6.74 light firing pin block spring fixed that and took about 1.5-2# out of the pull. And this is how I'll leave it, and learn to be proficient with it like it is.
Old FPBS left, new on right
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/78c456fb.jpg
I like what Greg pointed out earlier, folks hated Glock triggers at first (some still do). But now we have a plethora of springs and connectors available to tailor the Glock trigger previously known as shitty, mushy, etc. In time, more goodies may be available for guns like the P30. And maybe perception will improve.
So I wonder if our special op guys are using Glocks, M&P'S or ? as their sidearms ?
Sounds like Glocks pretty heavily. ;) Not that this should influence our choices necessarily.
Sounds like Glocks pretty heavily. ;) Not that this should influence our choices necessarily.
It shouldn't influence your decision. However, you will find Glocks (CAG) and HK (Dev Group) being used.
I have yet to see modern HK pistol go full auto due to trigger malfunction or worn out parts. Glock, 1911s, CZs - see them all the time.
Are HK triggers bad? Yes, they feel bad, but pistol goes bang (just one bang!) everytime I pull it.
Were is con in being overbuilt?
Ahh "full auto all the time" is nothing but pure hyperbole. Yes the trigger's are a bit yucky, though in my opinion it's not a deal breaker per se. As to "overbuilt" I think you're confusing the term with roubustness! In the case of HK, overbuilt relates to the ergonomic impact(negative)of all the extraneous controls. For instance, the slide release levers on the HKP30 are at least a half inch longer then necessary, so much so that they routinely interfere with various shooters manipulating the mechanism, indeed on the right side of the frame these levers result in a bulge right at the top of the trigger guard, where many place their trigger finger! The decocker button positioned at the exact rear of the slide is virtually inaccessible to most left handed shooters without first having to modify their grip on the firearm(their thumb being effectively obstructed by the hammer).
In the case of the S variants, which are a particular mess ergonomically speaking, the P30's pear shaped frame, where it's mated to the ambi safety levers, is awkward because they are at the fattest portion of the frame(peak of the pear so to speak)which can cause problems, and interfere with operation. All in all, these pistols are quite cluttered up with needless, or oversized controls.
I've talked with Mr Bowie on more then one occasion, triggers were never on the top of our list of criticisms of the HKP30 pistols...
My understanding is that HK is intending to redesign this pistol to some extent, they(HK)are well aware of it's ergonomic shortfalls, and are not shy in addressing them with their customer's who have only to ask...
Ahh "full auto all the time" is nothing but pure hyperbole.
You are right, I must be more specific. Maybe not every but probably every second or third big IPSC match I attend I see Glock or 1911/2011 go burst. Sometime CZ. I was fixing some of those 1911s or 2011s - worn trigger parts led to burst.
In the case of HK, overbuilt relates to the ergonomic impact(negative)of all the extraneous controls. For instance, the slide release levers on the HKP30 are at least a half inch longer then necessary, so much so that they routinely interfere with various shooters manipulating the mechanism, indeed on the right side of the frame these levers result in a bulge right at the top of the trigger guard, where many place their trigger finger!
Slide release levers issue is real. HK seem to design their pistols to gripping techniques that are standard for German Police or Army. And this is not "high thumb" grip. For me, using this kind of grip it took some time to adapt to those long levers on P30. I must agree that levers on HK45 or P2000/SK are much better, especially slim ones.
The decocker button positioned at the exact rear of the slide is virtually inaccessible to most left handed shooters without first having to modify their grip on the firearm(their thumb being effectively obstructed by the hammer).
Sorry?? I always tough that this rear de-cocker button is best thing since sliced bread. And I had it back in 2003 in my GPM P2000. And I'm lefty. Maybe I have some strange thumbs or something...
In the case of the S variants, which are a particular mess ergonomically speaking, the P30's pear shaped frame, where it's mated to the ambi safety levers, is awkward because they are at the fattest portion of the frame(peak of the pear so to speak)which can cause problems, and interfere with operation. All in all, these pistols are quite cluttered up with needless, or oversized controls.
Again same issue as with slide lock levers. Those safeties are not made with high thumb, thumb over safety grip. And I admit that those are problematic to use with such grip. That is why I prefer P30 over P30S and why I prefer my HK45C with LEM, than with safety (on wrong side of gun for me anyway).
Those two ergonomic issues, that you brought are valid points for certain type of grip technique. They can be overcome with additional training or changing grip a bit, without loosing its advantages. But they for sure are there. That is why, when someone ask me what gun should he buy, I advice to first to take it in hand, "feel it", then shoot it. Actually when I was shopping for gun some 10 years ago I was trying to decide between CZ P-01 and Walther P99AS. But I made mistake of taking P2000 in my hand. After like 5 minutes I knew what I wanted.
My understanding is that HK is intending to redesign this pistol to some extent, they(HK)are well aware of it's ergonomic shortfalls, and are not shy in addressing them with their customer's who have only to ask...
This is right. Exactly what they did for HK P30L when it was first designed for Norway Police. Slide release levers got shortened and left as flat ones, to prevent interference with shooters grip. Norway Police requires sling shot technique to close slide after slide lock reload, so cutting levers was not a problem (those are still usable on Norway pistols, just not as easy).
As you can see, I can mostly agree (with exception for rear decocker button) with your opinion. But I think it is not because those pistols are "overbuilt", they are just built for different grip techniques, that are still prevalent over the world. It really takes time to for industry to catch up with new in training and technique. Look how many manufacturers (including Glock) still make recess for strong hand thumb down on grip side (on triggerguard level). This recess is good only for traditional one handed or thumb-over-thumb grips. Not to mention newest IMI Barak, that has safety lever in this place!
HK is not worst in this area, especially for company that went almost straight (with P2000 station) from blocky USP/USPc to something like P30 or HK45C or HK45 :D
Larry Vickers
03-06-12, 08:02
Just need to clarify that the Vickers mods on the HK45 and HK P30 involve an internal overtravel stop, removing the 'groove' molded into the bottom inside of the trigger guard, and rounding the edges on the mag catch - it does not involve 'improving' the trigger pull
My advice is if you want a great trigger on a pistol buy a good 1911 - if you shoot anything else man up and use the trigger as it comes; I have said it before and I will say it again- practice and learn proper trigger control to where you can run anything effectively without the need for a highly tuned trigger- in short you can't buy proficiency
Cheers
LAV
from the man himself
thank you
For instance, the slide release levers on the HKP30 are at least a half inch longer then necessary, so much so that they routinely interfere with various shooters manipulating the mechanism, indeed on the right side of the frame these levers result in a bulge right at the top of the trigger guard, where many place their trigger finger!
Again, yes it's a small issue but you're making it into a bigger deal than it is. I had issue with interfering with the slide stop...for 50 rounds, I adapted my grip to alleviate the issue. The same exact think happened to me when I put my Vickers extended slide stop on my G19. I had to make a simple adjustment and I was good to go.
My advice is if you want a great trigger on a pistol buy a good 1911 - if you shoot anything else man up and use the trigger as it comes; I have said it before and I will say it again- practice and learn proper trigger control to where you can run anything effectively without the need for a highly tuned trigger- in short you can't buy proficiency
Cheers
LAV
All that needs to be said! Thanks for weighing in Larry.
Just need to clarify that the Vickers mods on the HK45 and HK P30 involve an internal overtravel stop, removing the 'groove' molded into the bottom inside of the trigger guard, and rounding the edges on the mag catch - it does not involve 'improving' the trigger pull
My advice is if you want a great trigger on a pistol buy a good 1911 - if you shoot anything else man up and use the trigger as it comes; I have said it before and I will say it again- practice and learn proper trigger control to where you can run anything effectively without the need for a highly tuned trigger- in short you can't buy proficiency
Cheers
LAV
I appreciate your input but does that mean you don't advocate trigger work on the P30 & HK45?
It's fine to learn to work with what you're given but isn't part of being a savvy end user tuning your vehicle to meet your needs? ..or is the P30 & HK45 not a good candidate for trigger work because of what Bowie says, "is an old and crappy design"?
Thanks,
W.
You are right, I must be more specific. Maybe not every but probably every second or third big IPSC match I attend I see Glock or 1911/2011 go burst. Sometime CZ. I was fixing some of those 1911s or 2011s - worn trigger parts led to burst.
You can't blame the guns for that. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that any issues you see with Glocks, 1911s or CZs going full auto at a pistol match is because kitchen table gun smiths are going ape with the dremel or dropping in goofy competition after market parts. Comparing a stock HK to an over tuned race gun for reliability and durability is a little disingenuous.
I have fired 10s of thousands of rounds through Glocks, and have been around people who have fired 100s of thousands of rounds through them and have never had a problem with a Glock going full auto.
You crack a gun open and mess around with it's guts bad things are going to happen.
It shouldn't influence your decision. However, you will find Glocks (CAG) and HK (Dev Group) being used.
The SIG P226R and P239 are also issued at DG.
The SIG P226R and P239 are also issued at DG.
And Glock use is much more widespread that just CAG.
Since being around Glocks in great quantities since 1989 I have seen one single gun go full auto. If I recall correctly it had a break on one of the back frame rails. It was shipped to Glock and repaired/returned.
Bulldog7972
03-06-12, 15:06
..That is if you can find a 1911 that is both reliable and accurate for under $3,000.
Sorry, had to say it. :)
Sure you can. I did. A Smith and Wesson 1911
Did anybody think to PM David, he is a member here, or possibly email him with a link to this thread so he can express his opinion?
Did anybody think to PM David, he is a member here, or possibly email him with a link to this thread so he can express his opinion?
Not a bad idea, but does it really matter? Even if he doesn't like HK, it's not that big of a deal. It seems like some are hurt or taken aback by the fact that he doesn't, but I don't understand why. Everyone has their preferences. If it works for you, it does. If it doesn't, get something that does. Doesn't matter whether or not Mr Bowie or LAV like them, they're not shooting them. And, of course, an SME's opinion carries weight because of his/her experience; but in the end, you're the guy shooting it and depending on it. If it works for you, than it's just their opinions and you don't have the same experience with that piece of gear. That's ok. Btw, not you personally, plural/general you.
Not a bad idea, but does it really matter?
Nah, not for me. I just thought it would be the most logical thing to do, rather than arguing about his opinion, since he is a member of this forum.
Ahh "full auto all the time" is nothing but pure hyperbole. Yes the trigger's are a bit yucky, though in my opinion it's not a deal breaker per se. As to "overbuilt" I think you're confusing the term with roubustness! In the case of HK, overbuilt relates to the ergonomic impact(negative)of all the extraneous controls. For instance, the slide release levers on the HKP30 are at least a half inch longer then necessary, so much so that they routinely interfere with various shooters manipulating the mechanism, indeed on the right side of the frame these levers result in a bulge right at the top of the trigger guard, where many place their trigger finger! The decocker button positioned at the exact rear of the slide is virtually inaccessible to most left handed shooters without first having to modify their grip on the firearm(their thumb being effectively obstructed by the hammer).
In the case of the S variants, which are a particular mess ergonomically speaking, the P30's pear shaped frame, where it's mated to the ambi safety levers, is awkward because they are at the fattest portion of the frame(peak of the pear so to speak)which can cause problems, and interfere with operation. All in all, these pistols are quite cluttered up with needless, or oversized controls.
I've talked with Mr Bowie on more then one occasion, triggers were never on the top of our list of criticisms of the HKP30 pistols...
I find the last part really ironic, given that David made his name by transforming stock Glocks - that nearly epitomize idiosyncratic ergos - into barely recognizable guns. The number of permanent changes offered by him and others is staggering - finger groove removal especially on compact models, trigger undercut, hump removal and grip reduction, magwells, texturing. Finger grooves, index finger irritation by trigger guard and slide bite seem to be most common offenders. Then add a number of non-permanent mods to make that thing work ergonomically - stock mag catch barely usable hence the popularity of Larry's version, also Larry's slide stop, now popular Gripforce adapter...
Compare this to P30:
1. Take emery or file to trigger guard groove 2. Shorten slide release levers, yourself or for a nominal fee 3. Done.
Speaking of slide release levers: load one round in a mag at the time, holster, draw on timer with right hand only, repeat 10 times with each pistol, report back how many slide no-locks are going to happen with each.
P30 decocker lever is in absolutely ingenious location. You want to talk lack of access for a lefty, look at Sig. You want to talk stupid slide-mounted location that leads to decocking during reloads, look at Beretta. P30, access to both hands as a lefty here confirmed, and no accidental decocking during manipulations. Best on the market.
All in all, with exception of two ergonomic shortcomings corrected at a fraction of a cost and time needed to correct Glock's ergos, P30 is one of the most ergonomic pistols on the market, regardless of what David thinks.
My advice is if you want a great trigger on a pistol buy a good 1911 - if you shoot anything else man up and use the trigger as it comes; I have said it before and I will say it again- practice and learn proper trigger control to where you can run anything effectively without the need for a highly tuned trigger- in short you can't buy proficiency
I rest my case.
Glad to know there are at least two of us who feel this way. No two triggers are the same, adjust to the tool and practice. Anything else is just tinkering for the sake of tinkering or worse, blaming the tool for your lack of practice / ability.
I rest my case.
Glad to know there are at least two of us who feel this way. No two triggers are the same, adjust to the tool and practice. Anything else is just tinkering for the sake of tinkering or worse, blaming the tool for your lack of practice / ability.
How about that other tier 1 instructor who extensively tested a P30 LEM variant with a trigger so tweaked that its now named after him?
How about that other tier 1 instructor who extensively tested a P30 LEM variant with a trigger so tweaked that its now named after him?
What about him? He hasn't posted in this thread that I know of and I suspect he's pretty proficient with most any pistol in its stock trigger configuration. Time to man up Kool Aid :)
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-06-12, 20:38
This thread has made me want to pick up a Hk45c
This thread has made me want to pick up a Hk45c
I guess I really know how to pick a topic. :p
This thread has made me want to pick up a Hk45c
Ha. Me too.
P30 decocker lever is in absolutely ingenious location. You want to talk lack of access for a lefty, look at Sig. You want to talk stupid slide-mounted location that leads to decocking during reloads, look at Beretta. P30, access to both hands as a lefty here confirmed, and no accidental decocking during manipulations. Best on the market
Your criticisms of the Beretta and Sig are quite valid, both are are known issues. However the statement that the rear mounted decocker of the HKP30 is "ingenious" is a bit of a stretch. Lefty shooters thumbs "must" move around the cocked hammer to engage the decocker button. A significant percentage are going to have to make an adjustment in their grip to accomadate the positioning of the decocker. Introducing an obstacle to the functioning of this control is to my mind, far removed from ingenious.
I should point out that I own three of these firearms, including the aforementioned "S" variant V3. With the ambi safety, this pistol is a an ergonomic disaster. The P30's high bore axis, mated to all of the above issues, but especially the ambi safety, forces the shooter's hand into the lowest possible grip position on the frame. This results in a greatly increased perception of recoil. This was the prime reason I contacted Mr Bowie in the first place! Consider, the Glock, or M&P actually have less grip area to work with then does the P30, which is a bigger pistol in the frame. Yet because of the clutter, and postioning of these controls, the tactile perception is one of being "cramped or squeazed" into postion.
When I transition to a Glock after shooting the P30S, it's amazingly roomy and accomadating in comparison. I must point out that to my opinion, when the ambi safety is absent on the P30 frame, it substantially alters the equation. The shooter's hand is then able to rise higher into the pocket of the grip frame, it becomes much more roomy, and comfortable to manipulate the mechanism....
This is why when asked about buying the "S" variant(and I am)I always urge folks to head to a range and rent one for an afternoon before committing an expensive mistake...
Lefty shooters thumbs "must" move around the cocked hammer to engage the decocker button. A significant percentage are going to have to make an adjustment in their grip to accomadate the positioning of the decocker. Introducing an obstacle to the functioning of this control is to my mind, far removed from ingenious.
How about best on the market? Short of making the same design ambidextrous, what else is better? We already agreed on Sig and Beretta, what other options do we have? HKs own ambi safety/decocker lever a'la HK 45 has been criticized for accidental decocking during recoil if one ran it thumb over the safety. Sure, P30 is not going to be as easy for lefties, but it is doable, I've done it. To me, this small disadvantage - which is not insurmountable by any stretch - is heavily outweighed by advantages this system has over any other decocking system by virtue being free of their, much more serious, shortcomings.
This is why when asked about buying the "S" variant(and I am)I always urge folks to head to a range and rent one for an afternoon before committing an expensive mistake...
Problem is they are hard to find for a rent. I handled a couple, and came to conclusion that running it with a thumb over the safety would require slightly different thumb position than, say, with 1911 or M&P. But, so there is no rental P30s here, I can't test it.
Consider, the Glock, or M&P actually have less grip area to work with then does the P30, which is a bigger pistol in the frame.
How's this measured? I don't have my Glock 19 with me (btw, worked over by David into a gun that has no semblance to the original so the ergos became to my liking, at a cost about 8 times more what it took to take care of P30 ergo issue), but, as far I remember, even grip-reduced G19 feels bigger and support hand has more room to fill. I don't have anything remotely close to feeling squeezed or cluttered with P30, to me it is the most natural grip out there.
You can't blame the guns for that. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that any issues you see with Glocks, 1911s or CZs going full auto at a pistol match is because kitchen table gun smiths are going ape with the dremel or dropping in goofy competition after market parts. Comparing a stock HK to an over tuned race gun for reliability and durability is a little disingenuous.
Actually IPSC Production Division rules ban any form of trigger job, use of aftermarket parts, even polishing of a stock parts. It is very different in this area comparing to USPSA Production rules. This considers Glocks (mostly) and CZ - both at high round counts. As to 1911 or 2011 I mean pistols from makers such as STI, Infiniti, ParaOrd or Taurus that were not home tuned and developed f/a firing as trigger parts were worn over some 5-10K rounds.
Hack trigger jobs by home grown gunsmith on Glocks usually make them go f/a after next 50 or 100 rounds, I do not count that. However this shows how susceptible to this behaviour it's trigger design is.
What about him? He hasn't posted in this thread that I know of and I suspect he's pretty proficient with most any pistol in its stock trigger configuration. Time to man up Kool Aid :)
He is suspiciously absent from this forum in general...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but were not the trigger systems on the M&P and Glock test guns also heavily massaged? Much respect to LAV, and not trying to start a "my dad can beat up your dad argument" as LAV wins by a landslide IMO, but there are differing opinions on trigger mods throughout the ranks.
I've owned just about every brand mentioned here and have really never had issues with the triggers on any. They are what they are. I like a stock Glock trigger and also love the HK LEM (I run a DA mainspring). I find running a double action revolver every once in awhile will improve your shooting no matter what system you like. Truthfully, I shoot a revolver as well if not better than any other pistol out there. IMHO everyone should train a couple months a year with a good DA revolver, I really believe it helps iron out bad trigger habits.
IMHO everyone should train a couple months a year with a good DA revolver, I really believe it helps iron out bad trigger habits.
Excellent point. With all of the whinning about triggers in this thread it makes you wonder how people ever shot with a revolver for so many years. Spoiled rotten I tell ya!
I find the last part really ironic, given that David made his name by transforming stock Glocks - that nearly epitomize idiosyncratic ergos - into barely recognizable guns. The number of permanent changes offered by him and others is staggering - finger groove removal especially on compact models, trigger undercut, hump removal and grip reduction, magwells, texturing. Finger grooves, index finger irritation by trigger guard and slide bite seem to be most common offenders. Then add a number of non-permanent mods to make that thing work ergonomically - stock mag catch barely usable hence the popularity of Larry's version, also Larry's slide stop, now popular Gripforce adapter...
Compare this to P30:
1. Take emery or file to trigger guard groove 2. Shorten slide release levers, yourself or for a nominal fee 3. Done.
Speaking of slide release levers: load one round in a mag at the time, holster, draw on timer with right hand only, repeat 10 times with each pistol, report back how many slide no-locks are going to happen with each.
P30 decocker lever is in absolutely ingenious location. You want to talk lack of access for a lefty, look at Sig. You want to talk stupid slide-mounted location that leads to decocking during reloads, look at Beretta. P30, access to both hands as a lefty here confirmed, and no accidental decocking during manipulations. Best on the market.
All in all, with exception of two ergonomic shortcomings corrected at a fraction of a cost and time needed to correct Glock's ergos, P30 is one of the most ergonomic pistols on the market, regardless of what David thinks.
That's hilarious. I had no idea my Glocks were such an ergonomic mess. I should throw them away.
I think all the harping on Glock ergos is a little exaggerated. Sure people offer lots of mods to the Glock pistols, but that doesn't mean they are somehow ergonomically unfit for human use. The vast, vast majority of Glock users leave them stock. Those that do fiddle with them would fiddle with just about any gun.
My G17 has several 'mods' I did on my own. Took a nail file to some of the mold seams: total time 20 minutes; $0 invested. Replaced the slide stop and mag release with extended versions: 20 minutes; $20. Sights were replaced of course, but I'd do that to a P30 as well. So, I put about $20 and 40 minutes into correcting all of the 'horrible' ergos on my G17. Fact is, I'd probably do the same to a P30.
Hey, you guys that have P30s are right, they are great guns, no doubt. I think they are well built, accurate, and reliable. I'd like to have one some day.
But please stop with the over the top hyperbole to try and justify your choices. Wild claims of Glocks going full auto all the time, or massive investments in modifications to correct non-existent ergonomic issues aren't necessary.
Nephrology
03-07-12, 10:08
I have yet to see modern HK pistol go full auto due to trigger malfunction or worn out parts. Glock, 1911s, CZs - see them all the time. I've also seen HK pistols with trigger in operating condition with broken springs, missing parts or wrongly installed parts (latter 2 owner or gunsmith fault).
Great, awesome, I bet you and your super awesome sidearm will never break ever for any reason and evaporate bad guys at the mere mention of its name while other inferior pistols crumble into dust after the first magazine. good for you. I hope this somehow makes you sleep better at night.
Are we seriously still arguing about this? Do we really have nothing better to do than throw out specious arguments about why pistol X is better than pistol Y? All of the guns mentioned so far have been issued to a number of elite units, have survived well documented and publicized 'torture tests,' and will likely serve us all as well as one can expect a handgun to.
If you have problems with your gun (and if you shoot enough, or buy enough, you will eventually have a problem with your gun) then you'll fix it. and that will be that.
pretty much every argument I have seen thrown out in this thread has been some egomaniacal self-rationalized justification for why their gun is the Excalibur, the Hammer of Thor, the Durandal that will smite their mythical Moorish horde, and every other gun is basically a super soaker. It's pathetic. If you really need to inveigh that heavily against OTHER guns to make you feel good about the money you spent on the pistol on your hip you should really look into therapy, or maybe a muscle car, or a gym membership so you can find less public ways to compensate for your own feelings of personal inadequacy.
I wish I could lock my own thread, lol. This was never supposed to be about Striker vs. Hammer. I don't care, both are good, I just wanted to know what the thoughts are of the mechanics of the H&K triggers being modified.
So far I haven't seen anyone suggest that H&K's are a liability other than the H v. S debate. Thanks for everyone's input and even LAV for chiming in.
I guess the point is to any gun owner is don't be afraid to mod your guns so long as you know what you're doing. :happy:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f33/wolvee123/ResizedImage951331088196310_2-1.jpg (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=100883)
That's hilarious. I had no idea my Glocks were such an ergonomic mess. I should throw them away.
Don't do that! You'd have to change your user name :eek::D
Are we seriously still arguing about this? Do we really have nothing better to do than throw out specious arguments about why pistol X is better than pistol Y? All of the guns mentioned so far have been issued to a number of elite units, have survived well documented and publicized 'torture tests,' and will likely serve us all as well as one can expect a handgun to.
Apparently you are :haha: there was some calm discussion going on, no need for you to kick down the door and spit your hot fire.
So far I haven't seen anyone suggest that H&K's are a liability other than the H v. S debate. Thanks for everyone's input and even LAV for chiming in.
I appreciate (some) of the info we've gotten on the topic. The pros have varying opinions and I enjoy listening, with respect, to all of them. End of the day, I'm happy with what I have...and I'll continue to wear my shit-eating-grin as I shoot the piss out of my P30. And my Glock.
Hunter Rose
03-07-12, 13:42
This thread is amusing, because it tries to define the best pistol in absolute terms. In my mind, I keep seeing two Neanderthal's conversing:
"Me say HK better, therefore Glock sucks." Grunt, grunt. "No, me say Glock better, therefore HK sucks." (Fight to the death with rocks and sticks ensues.)
Its all just personal preference. Not everybody is the same so people have different preferences in what makes a good firearm. These differing preferences don't stop just because you're a Gunsmith or SME. Just look in the "Ask the SME" section here on the boards. You have one highly respected combat experienced veteran turned instructor who recommends Aimpoints. In the same section you have another highly respected combat experienced veteran turned instructor who recommends Eotechs.
In the end, Glocks are great; Hk's are great. Neither is a Hi-Point. All that matters at is that whatever well built pistol you choose you can make the bullets go where you want them to.
This thread is amusing, because it tries to define the best pistol in absolute terms. In my mind, I keep seeing two Neanderthal's conversing:
"Me say HK better, therefore Glock sucks." Grunt, grunt. "No, me say Glock better, therefore HK sucks." (Fight to the death with rocks and sticks ensues.)
Its all just personal preference. Not everybody is the same so people have different preferences in what makes a good firearm. These differing preferences don't stop just because you're a Gunsmith or SME. Just look in the "Ask the SME" section here on the boards. You have one highly respected combat experienced veteran turned instructor who recommends Aimpoints. In the same section you have another highly respected combat experienced veteran turned instructor who recommends Eotechs.
In the end, Glocks are great; Hk's are great. Neither is a Hi-Point. All that matters at is that whatever well built pistol you choose you can make the bullets go where you want them to.
I envisioned Spock and Kirk fighting to the death in front of T'pol. :dance3:walk like a nerd.
Pon Farr only comes every seven years. This battle of gun x vs guy y comes every day somewhere.
Hunter Rose
03-07-12, 16:02
I envisioned Spock and Kirk fighting to the death in front of T'pol. :dance3:walk like a nerd.
NEERRRRRDS! Thankfully, beyond Spock and Kirk I have no idea what your post or the one below it means.
That's hilarious. I had no idea my Glocks were such an ergonomic mess. I should throw them away.
I think all the harping on Glock ergos is a little exaggerated. Sure people offer lots of mods to the Glock pistols, but that doesn't mean they are somehow ergonomically unfit for human use. The vast, vast majority of Glock users leave them stock. Those that do fiddle with them would fiddle with just about any gun.
My G17 has several 'mods' I did on my own. Took a nail file to some of the mold seams: total time 20 minutes; $0 invested. Replaced the slide stop and mag release with extended versions: 20 minutes; $20. Sights were replaced of course, but I'd do that to a P30 as well. So, I put about $20 and 40 minutes into correcting all of the 'horrible' ergos on my G17. Fact is, I'd probably do the same to a P30.
Hey, you guys that have P30s are right, they are great guns, no doubt. I think they are well built, accurate, and reliable. I'd like to have one some day.
But please stop with the over the top hyperbole to try and justify your choices. Wild claims of Glocks going full auto all the time, or massive investments in modifications to correct non-existent ergonomic issues aren't necessary.
I think if anybody is using hyperbole, it is you: I never said unfit for human use, horrible ergos, or suggested to throw them away. Whether vast majority of Glock users keep them stock or not doesn't change a fact that no other wildly popular gun has had so many ergo mods offered and requested. When I had mine done by Bowie in 2009, the wait time was 8 months. I think that tells the story about demand on that kind of work, combined with longish waits on Boresight's and other reputable shops.
The number of aftermarket Glock enhancements is huge. You're right in that availability of those thingies doesn't equate necessity. However, there would be no availability if no demand existed; somebody must be finding those Viclers stops, grip plugs and Gripforce adapters helpful.
Finally, my post didn't intend to criticize Glock ergos as all ergos are an individual choice and this thread is really about HKs. As I said, I reflected on the irony that David finds HKs ergonomically inferior contrary to a popular opinion (minus Denali) and endorses Glocks, all while making his name on extensive ergonomic modifications of Glocks.
This thread is amusing, because it tries to define the best pistol in absolute terms. In my mind, I keep seeing two Neanderthal's conversing:
"Me say HK better, therefore Glock sucks." Grunt, grunt. "No, me say Glock better, therefore HK sucks." (Fight to the death with rocks and sticks ensues.)
Its all just personal preference. Not everybody is the same so people have different preferences in what makes a good firearm. These differing preferences don't stop just because you're a Gunsmith or SME. Just look in the "Ask the SME" section here on the boards. You have one highly respected combat experienced veteran turned instructor who recommends Aimpoints. In the same section you have another highly respected combat experienced veteran turned instructor who recommends Eotechs.
In the end, Glocks are great; Hk's are great. Neither is a Hi-Point. All that matters at is that whatever well built pistol you choose you can make the bullets go where you want them to.
Good post, but it's been said a few times now to no avail. What can you do.
And this thread still makes me want an HK45, but I think I want the compact version now as it's also still somewhat concealable. Kind of like the Glock 19. Cuts the center line nicely.
Whether vast majority of Glock users keep them stock or not doesn't change a fact that no other wildly popular gun has had so many ergo mods offered and requested. When I had mine done by Bowie in 2009, the wait time was 8 months. I think that tells the story about demand on that kind of work, combined with longish waits on Boresight's and other reputable shops.
There are literally millions and millions of Glocks out there. Even if 5% of the total Glocks out there were sent in for any kind of mod it would completely swamp all of the plastic 'smiths. How many P30's are out there? I bet Glock shipped more 19s last month than the P30 has sold in it's entire production cycle. Of the hundreds and hundreds of Glocks I've seen out there, I have seen less than 5 that have been modified professionally. Most have been modded by the end user (like mine). The plastic smiths aren't busy because Glock ergos need to be 'corrected' more than other guns, it's because there are way, way more of them.
Besides, the last time I looked all of the major smiths, with the apparent exception of Bowie, work on other plastic guns too. Those mods wouldn't be needed if there weren't problems, right?
Gun guys like to mod their guns, period. They are always looking for that tiny edge, real or perceived, that a minor change to their gun will get them. You think Glock mods are extensive, have you heard of the 1911?
That said, I think the grip on the P30 is great. I like the texturing on it better than a Glock. But if I had a P30, I'd still fiddle with it.
Because I'm a gun guy and that's what we do.
How about that other tier 1 instructor who extensively tested a P30 LEM variant with a trigger so tweaked that its now named after him?
He swapped a couple of springs. I did it to my gun, it took about 5 or 10 minutes. I guess my glock with 3.5lb connector and ny1 spring as ridiculously tweaked as well.
Your criticisms of the Beretta and Sig are quite valid, both are are known issues. However the statement that the rear mounted decocker of the HKP30 is "ingenious" is a bit of a stretch. Lefty shooters thumbs "must" move around the cocked hammer to engage the decocker button. A significant percentage are going to have to make an adjustment in their grip to accomadate the positioning of the decocker. Introducing an obstacle to the functioning of this control is to my mind, far removed from ingenious.
I should point out that I own three of these firearms, including the aforementioned "S" variant V3. With the ambi safety, this pistol is a an ergonomic disaster. The P30's high bore axis, mated to all of the above issues, but especially the ambi safety, forces the shooter's hand into the lowest possible grip position on the frame. This results in a greatly increased perception of recoil. This was the prime reason I contacted Mr Bowie in the first place! Consider, the Glock, or M&P actually have less grip area to work with then does the P30, which is a bigger pistol in the frame. Yet because of the clutter, and postioning of these controls, the tactile perception is one of being "cramped or squeazed" into postion.
When I transition to a Glock after shooting the P30S, it's amazingly roomy and accomadating in comparison. I must point out that to my opinion, when the ambi safety is absent on the P30 frame, it substantially alters the equation. The shooter's hand is then able to rise higher into the pocket of the grip frame, it becomes much more roomy, and comfortable to manipulate the mechanism....
This is why when asked about buying the "S" variant(and I am)I always urge folks to head to a range and rent one for an afternoon before committing an expensive mistake...
I had no issues getting a high thumbs grip when I owned a P30S.
I don't get the high bore axis complaints. My splits are within a hundredth or two of what they were with my g17, and I find it easier to track the front sight with the p30. At 5'11" 155, I'm not some giant gorilla who muscles the gun so much the muzzle doesn't move, I just don't find the slightly increased muzzle flip has ANY EFFECT ON MY PERFORMANCE AT ALL. That's what really matters.
crazymoose
03-08-12, 14:55
How about best on the market? Short of making the same design ambidextrous, what else is better?
The P99.
I assume there is a difference in designing and executing decockers for striker-fired vs hammer-fired pistol. I continue to believe that P30 has the best available execution of decocker in hammer-fired camp.
Maverick07
03-09-12, 21:15
Not to hijack this thread... but I need to ask the HK pros a question about my HK45C trigger that is tangentially related to the topic. I purchased today a used HK45C... has some holster wear but nothing excessive... price was great. I noticed in the shop the trigger reset after dry firing felt a bit "dead" right before it engaged, but assumed it just needed a cleaning to rid the prior owners VD from it.
Just my effing luck... now the pistol is clean and appropriately lubed but the trigger fails to reset consistently after I engage it on either DA or SA. It sticks and will reset if I manually push it, shake it some or mash on trigger to free it up. Am I safe in assuming the issue is simply a worn trigger rebound spring and not some indicator of something more serious?
Maverick07
03-09-12, 21:16
Not to hijack this thread... but I need to ask the HK pros a question about my HK45C trigger that is tangentially related to the topic. I purchased today a used HK45C... has a fair amount of holster wear but nothing excessive and the price was right on. I noticed at the shop the trigger reset after dry firing felt a bit "dead" right before it engaged, but assumed it just needed a cleaning to rid the prior owners VD from it.
Just my effing luck... now the pistol is clean and appropriately lubed but the trigger fails to reset consistently after I engage it on either DA or SA. It sticks and will reset if I manually push it, shake it some or mash on trigger to free it up. Am I safe in assuming the issue is simply a worn trigger rebound spring and not some indicator of something more serious?
What is that I smell?
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