View Full Version : S&W M&P 15 VTAC II
Alright guys,
I performed a search, with the orange button, and it seems only a minor review, or discussion, was held about the new S&W M&P 15 VTAC II.
Looking at the specs and watching a couple videos of Kyle Lamb with the rifle, it seems S&W, along with VTAC, have changed some things up compared to their previous VTAC rifle. The new features and specs, copied from S&W, are pasted below.
Mid-Length System (The new "cat's meow?")
- Results in lower recoil and better accuracy providing higher 2nd shot hit probability
16″ Barrel (Looks to maybe be a lightweight profile?)
- 1 in 8″ twist (Increased durability and fast enough to stabalize heavy ammunition)
- 4150 CMV Steel (Definitely an upgrade from their previous 4140 steel.)
- 5R Rifling (Something new to non-custom ARs with an established past of accuracy. Helps with durability and maintenance of the barrel as well.)
- Melonite® Finish (Excellent durability and hardness.)
Chromed-Lined Bolt Carrier and Gas Key
VTAC®/Troy™ 13″ Extreme TRX Hand Guard (Nice set of rails.)
- Two 2″ Adjustable Picatinny-Style Rails
- Improved shooting ergonomics
- Reduced heat transfer and quicker target acquisition with this free-floating rail
- Extremely light weight and rigid allowing quicker target-to-target transitions
Patent-Pending, Smith & Wesson Enhanced Flash Hider (Not sure about this? Maybe it's good. Dunno.)
- Reduces flash signature significantly
- Directs gases and sound forward and away from the shooters
- Eliminates secondary flash/streak
Geissele® Super V Trigger (Sweet! Nice feature to come standard.)
- Quick reset
- Light trigger
- No set screws to come loose when cleaning or firing
Now, some of the stuff doesn't matter to the rifle, but is nice to have.
S&W has made some upgrades. They are now using 4150 CMV barrel steel, as compared to their older 4140, that has a 1:8 5R rifling finished in Melonite. Now that is interesting. I would like to know whom's blanks they were using, but it is nice to see they upgraded to 4150CMV. It's also excellent to note they are using 5R rifling, which is used in modern sniper rifle systems. 5R rifling generally reduces stress and deformation on the bullet itself, inherently making it more accurate in flight. Then we have Melonite. Now, I am no expert, but it seems a 4150 CMV barrel, finished in Melonite, orgied with a 1:8 twist and 5R rifling, would lend itself to be extremely rugged, accurate, and easy to maintain. Now, if we could just get some inside info and find out if they do little mil-spec things like MPI their bolts and barrels, HP their barrels, shot peen, and the such, since their info appears to be "proprietary."
Another note, since S&W now machines their own uppers and lowers in house, with their extensive machining past and history, could the quality, and mating, of the two halves be superb as well? I don't currently own a S&W M&P 15 because I was always led to believe they were inferior weapons. However, with their recent upgrades, are they now competing with the mid, to "top shelf", companies?
At the price point, You get a nice, and light, $180 rail system, a superior, over stock, $240 Geissele trigger, a VLTOR collapsible stock, and a few other lil nice gadgets, to include a superb VTAC 2 point sling.
Final thoughts, it seems S&W and VTAC are trying to appeal, at a good pricepoint of $1600 complete, to enter into the market with an extremely lightweight, 6.28 lbs, extremely durable, accurate, and top shelf weapon system.
Please do not scorn me, this is just a simple observation from the spec sheet on paper. I am in the market for an AR for Police Patrol, among other things, and just happen to come across this. I was actually avoiding S&W because of my thoughts I previously had for their AR lineup. I was watching a VTAC video and saw a video of Kyle Lamb talking about it. Kind of got me wondering. Should this be a rifle I should be considering heavily at this price point?
Please open this thread up for discussion about this particular AR, the new upgrades, and your thoughts about it, along with S&W as a "top shelf" contender as a "go to" and training rifle. Thanks guys.
More information about 5R rifling can be found at http://www.tcarms.com/technology/5r_rifling.php
Failure2Stop
03-01-12, 21:21
Dude, that reads like a brochure/fanboy centric ramble.
(ETA, oops, it's from S&Ws website, sorry, missed that)
Yeah, it's a decent gun, and if you like it, get it; but at the end of the day, it's a decent, light gun, just like many others.
IMO, $1950 MSRP seems a little high for what you're getting.
SpookyPistolero
03-01-12, 21:25
The street price will still likely be above a 6720 with an aimpoint pro and decent light. Or same rifle with a vtac rail and AP pro.
Dude, that reads like a brochure/fanboy centric ramble.
(ETA, oops, it's from S&Ws website, sorry, missed that)
Yeah, it's a decent gun, and if you like it, get it; but at the end of the day, it's a decent, light gun, just like many others.
IMO, $1950 MSRP seems a little high for what you're getting.
Failure2Stop,
Thanks for your input. Yea, haha, it does seem like that, but was just reading and pointing facts from their previous stuff... was just posting it seems like a nice weapon and seems they are making some improvements. Still don't like the fact they won't publicly state their QC/QA procedures and what tests are performed on their weapon systems. It would make it easier on us to make an informed decision.
Thanks again.
Failure2Stop
03-01-12, 21:29
Yeah, I'm not in a position to say it's bad, just that I don't think I'd shell out the cake for it.
Other options with stuff I like better for similar $$.
The street price will still likely be above a 6720 with an aimpoint pro and decent light. Or same rifle with a vtac rail and AP pro.
Spooky,
Thanks for your input. Yea, I was thinking about that too... I can get a new model LE6920 for $985, add an Aimpoint PRO for $400, a 7" VTAC TRX Extreme Rail, for comparison reason, for $155, and a BattleComp 2.0 for $165. Comes out to roughly, about $1650, what the VTAC II runs on the street... Really only thing missing is the trigger, but i have an optic figured in. Just looked, some more Colt LE6920 just went available for $985... To pull the trigger or not. Hrmmm...
Yeah, I'm not in a position to say it's bad, just that I don't think I'd shell out the cake for it.
Other options with stuff I like better for similar $$.
Failure2Stop,
Not that I am questioning you, but I am sincerely asking what would you that you would like better, if you don't mind me asking? I am just learning here. Thanks.
Can't speak much more on M&P15's but it does indeed seem they're upping their game. Setup sounds good... I wonder about the price. Maybe go add up what it would cost to buy it in two or more parts to see what gets shaved. That trigger does tack on a couple.
So...
BCM BFH 16" Mid Length (LIGHT WEIGHT) Upper Receiver Group w/ VTAC TRX 11" Handguard about $730 (I know, I put 11" but 13 isn't much more I believe.)
Note: BFH (Hammer forged barrels) are +$100 so this 100 is optional.
BCM Blemished Lower w/ basic M4 furnishings About $270
Most Geissele triggers run about $250 or a bit less
Then the bolt groups are typically $130
All that comes to ~about $1,380, maybe about 50 more if your lower isn't blemished and perhaps another bit if you have a more expensive stock and grip kit.
Then you probably get some BUIS which run about 100 for a magpul set, and a bit over 200 for iron. So goes...
about $1,480~$1,580 + optic of choice.
Just a general sum up.. + tax probably.
Can't speak much more on M&P15's but it does indeed seem they're upping their game. Setup sounds good... I wonder about the price. Maybe go add up what it would cost to buy it in two or more parts to see what gets shaved. That trigger does tack on a couple.
So...
BCM BFH 16" Mid Length (LIGHT WEIGHT) Upper Receiver Group w/ VTAC TRX 11" Handguard about $730 (I know, I put 11" but 13 isn't much more I believe.)
Note: BFH (Hammer forged barrels) are +$100 so this 100 is optional.
BCM Blemished Lower w/ basic M4 furnishings About $270
Most Geissele triggers run about $250 or a bit less
Then the bolt groups are typically $130
All that comes to ~about $1,380, maybe about 50 more if your lower isn't blemished and perhaps another bit if you have a more expensive stock and grip kit.
Then you probably get some BUIS which run about 100 for a magpul set, and a bit over 200 for iron. So goes...
about $1,480~$1,580 + optic of choice.
Just a general sum up.. + tax probably.
Casull,
Yea that sounds about right. So what we've figured out is we can build, with a quality we know, to come out about even with the new VTAC II. Either with the Colt Carbine System or a BCM, or equivalent, Carbine or Mid Length System.
However, there is also a peace of mind knowing what tests have been done on the weapons, inspections, and little, but important, features are known.
Failure2Stop
03-01-12, 22:25
Failure2Stop,
Not that I am questioning you, but I am sincerely asking what would you that you would like better, if you don't mind me asking? I am just learning here. Thanks.
Not a problem in the slightest.
Big question: what do you want to do with it?
What features do you give more weight than others?
I ask because my wants are not necessarily yours.
But:
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=16rh-556&cat=123&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=
Just something to think about.
Not a problem in the slightest.
Big question: what do you want to do with it?
What features do you give more weight than others?
I ask because my wants are not necessarily yours.
But:
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=16rh-556&cat=123&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=
Just something to think about.
Whew wee that's purty.
What do I want to do with it? I'm a LEO and want to use it for patrol at work, professional training courses, and for anything else I want.. Something probably rather lightweight, accurate, and quality.
What features do I give more weight to? Well finish really isn't all that important to me. When I worked in the trades, journeymen were always able to tell the newbies by his tools... If they were bright, shiny, and clean, that mean't he hadn't done much work or he's scared to do work... :secret: Hehe... I like a dirty (worn) weapon on the outside, but the inside, the heart of the weapon cleaned, lubricated, and tuned for warfare. I want a quality/accurate barrel, quality bcg, combat quality trigger, and the small details of workmanship (pride) quality matter greatly to me... Such as taper FSB pins, finish under FSB, proper twist on barrel, shot peened and MPI bolt/barrel, proper stress (HP) tests completed, you know the little stuff... Another analogy for you.. In the trades, you could tell a professional by the small things he done, not necessarily because he had to, but because he had pride in his work. i.e... making sure all the screw heads are facing the same direction, making sure all your pipe was bent and aligned properly, you know taking the extra step to make sure it was done with quality... To me, that means a lot. I saw "the list" by Rob_S. Which is awesome by the way.
So there you have it. Two shot questions answered. You know I probably could have kept going, but you get the idea...
Failure2Stop
03-01-12, 23:08
https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7-lw.html
Throws a whole lotta gun into a nice package.
Really though, I've just switched back to a 6920 with a Centurion FSB cut rail and it gets a whole lotta work done even out to extended range.
I am a big fan of the 6720 as well.
If testing and proven fitness are the top of your requirements I recommend Colt, DD, and LMT complete weapons or complete uppers, and I have been happy with the performance of my BCMs as well.
If you want to step up the precision requirement, Noveske barrels as well as the SS BCM barrels seem to do it without overly sacrificing robustness or heavier firing schedules.
Really though, if you have a 2 MOA combination, you will be able to reach out to the ragged edge of 5.56 effectiveness.
I'd much rather new people pick up the VTAC-II over some of the gems they buy instead. I have no doubt I can keep building my own weapons that are nearly identical for less, but it's a pretty decent starting rifle for somebody at a loss for decent components who refuses to see a 6920/6720 as a viable option.
I'd much rather new people pick up the VTAC-II over some of the gems they buy instead. I have no doubt I can keep building my own weapons that are nearly identical for less, but it's a pretty decent starting rifle for somebody at a loss for decent components who refuses to see a 6920/6720 as a viable option.
Llama,
Thanks for chiming in! I very much agree with your statement.
What do I want to do with it? I'm a LEO and want to use it for patrol at work, professional training courses, and for anything else I want...
Since your LEO you can probably knock about $600 off that MSRP, and get one around $13xx from an LEO dealer. Now at about $1400 how does it compare to the competition? Probably pretty damn well.
Having said that I'm probably buying a BCM middy, because I want a specific rail at a specific length. It'll most likely cost me more than the VTac 2 to have the trigger, BUIS, and extra bonuses in the long run.
Isn't this basically the same thing as a S&W Sport just with added accessories and the trigger? No S&W AR is worth buying over the real top shelf brands such as BCM and Colt, especially when they are priced similar. You'd likely pay more for the S&W in most cases just because they are another brand that prey on people who have no firearms knowledge.
IMO, S&W has upped their game but I'd still categorize them with someone like Spikes Tactical. There is just no logic behind purchasing a S&W that's not even true mil-spec for the same or more than say, a Noveske. :no:
Why are we even having this discussion? S&W isn't part of the cool club! :big_boss:
Isn't this basically the same thing as a S&W Sport just with added accessories and the trigger? No S&W AR is worth buying over the real top shelf brands such as BCM and Colt, especially when they are priced similar. You'd likely pay more for the S&W in most cases just because they are another brand that prey on people who have no firearms knowledge.
IMO, S&W has upped their game but I'd still categorize them with someone like Spikes Tactical. There is just no logic behind purchasing a S&W that's not even true mil-spec for the same or more than say, a Noveske. :no:
Why are we even having this discussion? S&W isn't part of the cool club! :big_boss:
DJMorris,
Thanks for stopping by. True, but reality is "most" people do not make informed decisions when buying weapon systems and go with what they know. They know S&W is an American company with a long, established, lineage in the handguns and revolvers industry. I believe the same people believe that truth carries over with their rifle. To be fair, they will probably not see the benefits others, "the cool club", would have. Their arguments will be, I've never had a problem, it shoots accurate, does what I want it to, and it has a lifetime warranty.
However, I can say I at least like the way they're headed... Seems like they're starting to utilize the mil-spec fans components and procedures. Hell, they may be good to go as far as we know. Some may be surprised if S&W released information about the tests and inspections their AR systems go through. S&W shares very little with those, us, that seem to care. I however, will stick with those I know, especially if they're in the same price point and of said quality.
Failure2Stop
03-02-12, 08:28
Wa22ioR-
I might be misreading your intent here.
Are you considering purchasing this carbine or is this just a conversation about it?
No problem either way.
DJMorris,
Thanks for stopping by. True, but reality is "most" people do not make informed decisions when buying weapon systems and go with what they know. They know S&W is an American company with a long, established, lineage in the handguns and revolvers industry. I believe the same people believe that truth carries over with their rifle. To be fair, they will probably not see the benefits others, "the cool club", would have. Their arguments will be, I've never had a problem, it shoots accurate, does what I want it to, and it has a lifetime warranty.
However, I can say I at least like the way they're headed... Seems like they're starting to utilize the mil-spec fans components and procedures. Hell, they may be good to go as far as we know. Some may be surprised if S&W released information about the tests and inspections their AR systems go through. S&W shares very little with those, us, that seem to care. I however, will stick with those I know, especially if they're in the same price point and of said quality.
I'm glad you can have a real discussion about the rifles without making claims like "My S&W xxx will outshoot your Colt any day because I made a bad investment that I need to feel good about!!!". :sarcastic: (I see this all too often)
Seriously though is there a reason that S&W uses the 1/8 over 1/7 twist ratio? I'm doubting that they know something HK, BCM, Colt, LMT, etc doesn't know.
I think my main concern in purchasing anything other than the S&W Sport (it's at least priced right) is that their QC may not be up to par. I know there is alot of M&P fans around these parts but I have seen way too many issues first hand with all of S&W semiauto handguns including the M&P. Typically if a company is pumping out low end products (the newer SD line and Sigma's come to mind), their "high end" products are not going to be drastically better in the real world, at least in my experiences.
If you put revolvers aside, Smith & Wesson has never really made that great of a handgun at all up until the M&P, which has still had more problems than a math book... people have just given 'em a pass it seems.
Let's be realistic: Smith & Wesson has made their name from LEO using the Model 10 and "Bubba" who thinks Ruger and S&W are the best firearm manufacturers because it says "Made in the USA" (should be a red flag in the handgun world)
I don't mean to go too far off topic with handguns, etc but my overall feelings are that S&W makes some high quality civilian level firearms but for the price of their supposed higher end duty guns you can usually buy one from a strictly top shelf manufacturer who have very strict QC guidelines to follow.
(despite this I have been considering picking up an M&P as it seems they have worked out some of the growing pains and for $450'ish it's priced right)
Wa22ioR-
I might be misreading your intent here.
Are you considering purchasing this carbine or is this just a conversation about it?
No problem either way.
Failure2Stop
Yea no problem, the answer is both. I think like all of the specs and upgrades the weapon system has along with the S&W known CS. However, I just can't get past the idea they may be hiding the whole "little things" that are important to me and speak on the quality and craftsmanship of their work... I care about properly MPI and HP tested barrels. I care about MPI and SHot Peened bolts. I care about using tapered pins in the FSB with finish under the FSB or gas block. I care about properly staked end plates and carrier gas keys. It's the little things I care about that S&W won't talk about and considers it "proprietary." To be honest, if I could get some facts from them or from someone that has the new VTAC II that could post pictures of the items I care about, I would probably buy one because it has all the stuff I already want in a package at a reasonable price point of just less that $1600. S&W has upped their game machining their own 7075 T6 receviers, and using 4150 CMV 5R rifling barrels with 1:8 twist.
Being a reputable company, I don't see them them cutting corners and hiding it under the "proprietary" label, but I just don't take a lot of chances, especially with a weapon system that I will come to depend on and trust with my life.
Thanks for your question, hope this clarifies it a little.
Failure2Stop
03-02-12, 10:37
Seriously though is there a reason that S&W uses the 1/8 over 1/7 twist ratio? I'm doubting that they know something HK, BCM, Colt, LMT, etc doesn't know.
1/8 is a pretty popular twist rate with precision barrels, including BCM.
It stabilizes anything that can fit in the magazine more efficiently than 1/7 apparently.
I am impressed with the changes to the vtac rifle & it seems like a good optic ready carbine with many of the upgrades already in place. I was a bit shocked at the MSRP though. Seems like $2G is the new pricepoint for "premium" rifles these days.
I'm glad you can have a real discussion about the rifles without making claims like "My S&W xxx will outshoot your Colt any day because I made a bad investment that I need to feel good about!!!". :sarcastic: (I see this all too often)
Seriously though is there a reason that S&W uses the 1/8 over 1/7 twist ratio? I'm doubting that they know something HK, BCM, Colt, LMT, etc doesn't know.
I think my main concern in purchasing anything other than the S&W Sport (it's at least priced right) is that their QC may not be up to par. I know there is alot of M&P fans around these parts but I have seen way too many issues first hand with all of S&W semiauto handguns including the M&P. Typically if a company is pumping out low end products (the newer SD line and Sigma's come to mind), their "high end" products are not going to be drastically better in the real world, at least in my experiences.
If you put revolvers aside, Smith & Wesson has never really made that great of a handgun at all up until the M&P, which has still had more problems than a math book... people have just given 'em a pass it seems.
Let's be realistic: Smith & Wesson has made their name from LEO using the Model 10 and "Bubba" who thinks Ruger and S&W are the best firearm manufacturers because it says "Made in the USA" (should be a red flag in the handgun world)
I don't mean to go too far off topic with handguns, etc but my overall feelings are that S&W makes some high quality civilian level firearms but for the price of their supposed higher end duty guns you can usually buy one from a strictly top shelf manufacturer who have very strict QC guidelines to follow.
(despite this I have been considering picking up an M&P as it seems they have worked out some of the growing pains and for $450'ish it's priced right)
DJMorris,
Yea thanks for the compliment. I am rather new here, other than lurking, but I just like to have honest discussion to help people make informative decisions about purchasing, or building, a weapon system that their life, or their comrades' life, may depend on.
I believe barrels designed to be "combat effective", in a sense meaning adaptability to broad range of ammunition and able to be place accurate fires, like BCM Recce barrels, and others tend to utilize the 1:8 twist. 1:8 twist is still easily fast enough to stabilize the heavier grain bullets, but all also is slower, not to over-stabilize the lighter grain bullets, causing them to yaw, and possibly keyhole. Generally speaking, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the slower the twist rate, the greater the durability and barrel life. I think you don't see more 1:8 twist rates because they're simply not common or popular, it's almost like a wildcat cartridge in a way... Nice, but not necessarily needed. Most, typically your lower grade, or cheaper, barrels tend to utilize the 1:9 twist for people that want to press the lighter grain, shoter, bullets. Typically used for plinking and such because they're cheaper... Some high end 1:7 "mil spec" barrels tend to "over stabilize" lighter grain bullets and cause degrading accuracy or even key-holing. I had a nice LMT Barrel a while back that MUCH preferred the heavier grain bullets. My groups would open, noticeably, when pressing lighter grain ammunition. It was still "minute of man" accurate to about 250-300 yards or so, before accuracy was heavily degraded or I was noticing keyholes in my targets.
About the handguns, not to digress, yea I had heard their quality a few years back was questionable, but from what I have been hearing, their M&P series is rock-solid now. Starting to break a market in the LEO world that has been dominated, and still is, by Glock. However, I wouldn't hesitate to pick-up a nice M&P Pistol, with an APEX kit installed, and drive it. Just seems like overall, S&W is, maybe trying, to improve their standards and quality.
Hope I didn't speak out my arse too much and help answer your questions. If I did so, please correct me. I don't mind constructive reinforcement. It's how we learn. Thanks again.
Hope this helps some...
I am impressed with the changes to the vtac rifle & it seems like a good optic ready carbine with many of the upgrades already in place. I was a bit shocked at the MSRP though. Seems like $2G is the new pricepoint for "premium" rifles these days.
MTDawg,
Yea, but it isn't overly awful if you think and add up all of the upgrades you would do to make a rifle like that... The handguards are roughly $180, the Geissele trigger is $240, Troy BUIS is $120, VLTOR IMOD is $100?, VTAC accessories and sling another $100? So not overly bad when they, the rifle, can be had for $1600 or so..
1/8 is a pretty popular twist rate with precision barrels, including BCM.
It stabilizes anything that can fit in the magazine more efficiently than 1/7 apparently.
Beat me to it.
I understand that 1/8 is commonly used in SS precision barrels, etc but does it really offer any advantages over a 1/7 twist ratio for a duty/battle rifle or is S&W just trying to find a sweet middle ground to please both sides? If 1/8 were truly the better ratio for a standard duty rifle then I'd imagine top shelf AR companies would have already picked up on it for their standard.
p.s. I'm not trying to say either way - I'm just here to learn and discuss. :)
I understand that 1/8 is commonly used in SS precision barrels, etc but does it really offer any advantages over a 1/7 twist ratio for a duty/battle rifle or is S&W just trying to find a sweet middle ground to please both sides? If 1/8 were truly the better ratio for a standard duty rifle then I'd imagine top shelf AR companies would have already picked up on it for their standard.
p.s. I'm not trying to say either way - I'm just here to learn and discuss. :)
DJMorris,
Yea np, I believe it probably has something to do with the popularity of the others and probably cost. Parts, equipment, and the tooling needed for the 1:8 twist i would imagine is costly and if there isn't a big market for it currently, could equal bad returns for the company.. I think as it become more known and popular, we will see more companies utilizing it.. There are already a couple that do like PWS and few others...
I understand that 1/8 is commonly used in SS precision barrels, etc but does it really offer any advantages over a 1/7 twist ratio for a duty/battle rifle or is S&W just trying to find a sweet middle ground to please both sides? If 1/8 were truly the better ratio for a standard duty rifle then I'd imagine top shelf AR companies would have already picked up on it for their standard.
p.s. I'm not trying to say either way - I'm just here to learn and discuss. :)
Also,
It does offer some advantage as an all around combat twist rate. As i stated earlier, it's the middle ground that is still easily fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets and slow enough to not over stabilize the lighter ones... In "combat purposes" it would mean, you could pick-up and any random ammunition found, collected, or looted and it would effectively fire and hit minute of man regardless of the weight.
Also,
It does offer some advantage as an all around combat twist rate. As i stated earlier, it's the middle ground that is still easily fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets and slow enough to not over stabilize the lighter ones... In "combat purposes" it would mean, you could pick-up and any random ammunition found, collected, or looted and it would effectively fire and hit minute of man regardless of the weight.
I was under the impression that this was basically the advantage of a 1/7 twist ratio.. I'd imagine manufacturers would have considered the 1/8 twist before jumping to 1/7, especially if it's 'better'. So, with that being said, you're implying that S&W is ahead of Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske, and KAC in terms of barrel technology? 1/7 is the new 1/9? :o
I was under the impression that this was basically the advantage of a 1/7 twist ratio.. I'd imagine manufacturers would have considered the 1/8 twist before jumping to 1/7, especially if it's 'better'. So, with that being said, you're implying that S&W is ahead of Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske, and KAC in terms of barrel technology? 1/7 is the new 1/9? :o
Lol! Now lets not get that started. Nope that is not what I am saying. I believe 1:7 is the mil spec. Just like anything else, the mil spec can be improved upon. I just believe it's not commonly known yet, or as popular, as 1:7 twist. I believe 1:8 generally is has little more durability too... Kinda why you see it used a lot in stainless steel barrel that are little less durable than chrome lined. So in hopes it kind of offsets that issue.
I was under the impression that this was basically the advantage of a 1/7 twist ratio.. I'd imagine manufacturers would have considered the 1/8 twist before jumping to 1/7, especially if it's 'better'. So, with that being said, you're implying that S&W is ahead of Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske, and KAC in terms of barrel technology? 1/7 is the new 1/9? :o
I don't think it's a matter of S&W being ahead of the others, but more that they aren't building to Mil Spec which requires a 1/7 twist rate for the M4 doesn't it?
Failure2Stop
03-02-12, 12:25
Frankly, we're off in the weeds on this.
I don't think it's a matter of S&W being ahead of the others, but more that they aren't building to Mil Spec which requires a 1/7 twist rate for the M4 doesn't it?
If I could go back in time I would make the 1/9 barrels go away and make everything 1/8. It would reduce the internet minutiae obsessing to barely audible background noise.
Frankly, we're off in the weeds on this.
If I could go back in time I would make the 1/9 barrels go away and make everything 1/8. It would reduce the internet minutiae obsessing to barely audible background noise.
But if you did that what would Bushmaster sell?
:sarcastic:
Frankly, we're off in the weeds on this.
If I could go back in time I would make the 1/9 barrels go away and make everything 1/8. It would reduce the internet minutiae obsessing to barely audible background noise.
Nice! Haha... Indeed we have digressed. Anyone else have some input and thoughts on the new VTAC II by S&W M&P?
MTDawg,
Yea, but it isn't overly awful if you think and add up all of the upgrades you would do to make a rifle like that... The handguards are roughly $180, the Geissele trigger is $240, Troy BUIS is $120, VLTOR IMOD is $100?, VTAC accessories and sling another $100? So not overly bad when they, the rifle, can be had for $1600 or so..
Admittedly, I haven't done the math. Assuming a good street price it could be a decent deal as the rifle is a very nice combination of components. The barrel in particular is very interesting to me. I followed the same logic when acquiring my SR15 a few years ago.
Admittedly, I haven't done the math. Assuming a good street price it could be a decent deal as the rifle is a very nice combination of components. The barrel in particular is very interesting to me. I followed the same logic when acquiring my SR15 a few years ago.
Yea, a friend of mine, whom is in the loop with connections to people, lots of people, stated he was told the barrels are made by Obermeyer Barrels for S&W... Obermeyer has extensive knowledge with 5R rifling barrels... Now don't go and assault me, I am just telling what I was told. Would be really nice though.
i have extensive use with the 5r barrels just not in 5.56 works fine but it isnt any better that any thing else that is done with care imho if the company takes pride in assembly
weight you can get a ddm4v7lw ( got mine for 1149) that weighs 5.78 pounds and is hundreds less and way better cs in my experience
at 100 meters i shoot 0.63 5 round group out of a ga precision 7.62 gladius 18in barrel muzzle break blah blah blah but this is a bolt gun yet i have a rem 700 5r military overrun rifle and i cant get it under 1.32 inch 5 round group so the rifling means nothing but i can see in my groups the difference between a 900 dollar rifle and a 4300 dollar rifle
for the cost of this new vtac rifle you can get a basic noveske and a t1 if you want a accurate m4
The Knuckle
03-03-12, 03:39
I can say this for a fact- S&W is not doing type 3 hard coat anodizing.
I have seen a colt and S&W upper and lower get media blasted. The S&W just blew off like blowing dust off a shelf. The colt took WAY more time.
Not sure if this is still the case since they now apparently do their upper/lowers in house.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=16rh-556&cat=123&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=
Just something to think about.
https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7-lw.html
I am a big fan of the 6720 as well.
1/8 is a pretty popular twist rate with precision barrels, including BCM.
It stabilizes anything that can fit in the magazine more efficiently than 1/7 apparently.
Beat me to it.
Warrior, based on this post it's obvious you have more than a basic understanding of rifles and the AR platform.
So with several more proven viable options, why would you be considering the S&W?
Bringing attention to the new offering (which is an improvement) I get..
1/7 and 1/8 are gtg :big_boss: I wanna try out a 1/8 18" some time. Probably won't tell the difference with my skillz.
Warrior, based on this post it's obvious you have more than a basic understanding of rifles and the AR platform.
So with several more proven viable options, why would you be considering the S&W?
Bringing attention to the new offering (which is an improvement) I get..
Rocket,
Thanks for the input. Well, to be honest and to answer your question, it's a little of both. I like to bring attention, or discuss is better term, new release ARs. I am in the market for a new, or very well maintained used, patrol rifle for work. The new VTAC-II has the upgrades I was wanting for the most part and it's already completed and ready to go. However, my department only allows certain brands to be used at work. Since joining the department, they have expanded the list just past the ABCD & RRA brands. They now authorize Noveske, KAC, LWRC, BCM, DD, LMT, S&W, and still authorize Colt plus the others. I know with any of the Colt, KAC, BCM, LMT, and DD lines, any of them will serve me well.. I am just trying to pick through the ones I want more than some of the others. All the people who have given their thoughts and opinions have been very helpful... Hope this clarifies some things... I am more than likely going to grab a Colt LE6920, or SOCOM version, with the "M4 Carbine" rollmark. Don't want all of the restricted mumbo jumbo either... Or, I will just build me a nice BCM mid length, with BFH, and call it a day. Have never owned DD nor LWRC, and never the privilege to own a KAC or Noveske... However, the Noveske 14.5" Light Carbine Basic or 16" Light Recce Basic are very tempting to just use as my base, get an Aimpoint PRO and save $ for all the other upgrades I want in the future.. Have never really heard anything negative about Noveske, KAC, DD, or BCM. My Colt, in combat, served exceptionally well and was definitely accurate enough to get the job done.. Just stuck is all... ;-) Trying to find which manufacturer to go with for the basic build is where I am stuck currently.
1/7 and 1/8 are gtg :big_boss: I wanna try out a 1/8 18" some time. Probably won't tell the difference with my skillz.
I think the vast majority here are in the same boat. The weapon systems are more accurate than we will ever be with it.
threeheadeddog
03-03-12, 09:06
I have a 1/8 rifle and havnt had issues with it even using 75gr hornady(meaning no keyholes or seeming loss in accuracy but I was more doing function check and not really looking for accuracy). I really think that in most cases the 1/8 would be great.
Having said that does anyone think that maby out of a 16" barrel it may be pushing it to go 1/8 if using 70gr TSX? It seems I saw some pics from a0cake with a BCM 18" using the heavy TSX but I may be wrong.
Just to clarify I was asking a question not asserting any experience with the TSX.
Failure2Stop
03-03-12, 10:57
As this thread develops so does my opinion.
It really comes down to price-point and performance.
The gun comes with a lot of stuff that, while I am sure they are able to purchase for far less than the consumer, would be additional cost to the end-user if that's what they wanted.
I'm going to estimate that the total value of the non-standard and additional items would run about $350 over a standard parts layout.
So that $1950 drops to about $1600 MSRP as a base carbine.
Still a little high, but still MSRP and with a decent HG and seemingly decent barrel. Knock about $200 off for an estimated street value and it's not too bad ($1750/$1400), especially if they can drop it down to about $1600.
It isn't how I would choose to lay out a carbine, but what it does have is decent, and there are certainly worse ways to go.
What about a Larue Tactical Predatar? I heard it is top quality, extremely accurate and starts at $1500.
LT carries the sling, mounts, and muzzle devices to make the PredatAR very similar, but with that you're paying for a more expensive upper receiver/handguard setup that requires more machining, a slightly more expensive SS barrel, a billet lower, and the slightly pricier MagPul hardware. Still a good choice, but it depends which application you have in mind.
There is a LOT right with the VTAC package, they just need to figure out the price point that makes it competitive since very similar offerings from DD, BCM, Noveske, Centurion and LT are all below the initial listed MSRP and use identical or better parts, but drop the price down to where it's competitive and comes with a sling, light, light mount, Aimpoint PRO or Micro for under $2000 and it starts to look extremely solid.
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