Honeycomb "Fluting" -Pics Added [Archive]

Orange-Fox

03-01-12, 20:13

I'm a Layman and compared to Strait fluting, Spiral, Diamond-Spiral, YHM Diamond and KAC Dimpling, Honeycomb seem to be the best in aesthetics and weight savings, what do the great minds here think about it, it's merits and demerits and are any other company contemplating offering it? because at the moment only Legion Firearms are making them and they don't make SBR barrels.
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7409/lfhoneyfde2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/692/lfhoneyfde2.jpg/)
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/7166/212012205051920pm.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/706/212012205051920pm.jpg/)
Pic used are from warsport-us.net with permission.

kartoffel

03-01-12, 21:00

machining a cold forged barrel? really?

Edit: since the pictures were added, I just want to say that barrel really does look cool. I'd consider dimpling or fluting a lathe-turned *stainless* barrel, but not a forged barrel. The whole freakin' POINT of forging is to put the metal in its final shape with beneficial residual stresses. Cutting on a forged barrel like that defeats the purpose.

TehLlama

03-01-12, 21:03

caelumatra

03-02-12, 01:26

If you want a functional rifle, get a CHF barrel in the profile that meets your needs (accuracy against weight mostly), and leave it alone. As attractive as this stuff is, the weight savings is usually minimal, especially for the cost.

Yep. I've got an 18" Noveske 308 I had dimpled and while the quality of work is outstanding the weight savings does not at all justify the cost. $250 for a little over half a pound saved.
Now granted I haven't taken it to any competitions where I lug it around so I may eat my words when that happens

rob_s

03-02-12, 04:38

I hadn't heard of this and since the OP didn't provide a link I went googling.
http://store.legionfirearms.com/product_p/barrel_18_hex.htm

I'm not sure I understand the benefit to this over traditional fluting. ADCO told me that fluting takes 10 oz. off their 16" WOA barrel.

usmcvet

03-02-12, 05:51

That honeycomb would be a Huge PITA to clean.

wahoo95

03-02-12, 05:58

The guys over at Warsport are selling these barrels. I have seen one in person and it was quite accurate. Cleaning shouldn't be an issue unless one chooses to use a difficult process. That said I'm not sure its benefits outweighs the cost when it priced in the same range as a Noveske barrel.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/WarUppers3.jpg

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mtdawg169

03-02-12, 11:07

ra2bach

03-02-12, 11:39

I'm a Layman and compared to Strait fluting, Spiral, Diamond-Spiral, YHM Diamond and KAC Dimpling, Honeycomb seem to be the best in aesthetics and weight savings, what do the great minds here think about it, it's merits and demerits and are any other company contemplating offering it? at the moment only Legion Firearms offer it and they don't make SBR barrels.

P.S. Anyone make a CHF barrel that's thick enough to be Honeycomb fluted? and I don't remember ever hearing of 3 grove polygonal rifling in an AR barrel?

personally I'm waiting for Nike swoops or NBA logos.

the resulting loss of accuracy due to harmonics and heating/cooling effects will be a bitch but it gonna look bitchin'...

wahoo95

03-02-12, 11:42

personally I'm waiting for Nike swoops or NBA logos.

the resulting loss of accuracy due to harmonics and heating/cooling effects will be a bitch but it gonna look bitchin'...

The Honeycomb supposedly increases barrel stiffness. Make sense considering the strength of the honeycomb in concept though I havent seen any testing to prove it.

devinsdad

03-02-12, 11:45

I'll admit, that "Honeycomb" fluting sure looks different compared to traditional straight flutes. I had Adco flute a heavy barrel to shave a bit of weight off and have something a little unique. The weight savings was barely noticeable and the handguard covers the flutes. Had I the chance to have a do over, I'd have just opted for a reprofile instead. Live and learn eh?

wahoo95

03-02-12, 12:11

Darkop

03-02-12, 14:16

Info I gathered from Warsport says that the 16" barrel weighs 1.1lb.

They also said that "The Hexagonal fluting provides superior harmonic balancing due the right angles in the Hex flutes, very low vibration. The hex flute also allows the end user to tune and balance the barrel by simply filling in flutes with a high-temp epoxy filler."

I've handled a stripped barrel and it appears to be high quality. The one I saw being shot was pretty accurate.

That's pretty light considering a Daniel Defense 14.5" LW is 1lb 6oz. It would be interesting to shoot 2 of the same barrels together. 1 with this hexagonal fluting and 1 without it, to see if there was any accuracy gain at all.

I have no idea how you would get mud out of those hex holes under the rail. Pressure washer I guess.

Until that day,
Darkop

usmcvet

03-02-12, 16:56

I was thinking even a light coating of rust would be a nightmare to scrub out.

wahoo95

03-02-12, 16:57

I was thinking even a light coating of rust would be a nightmare to scrub out.

"Shouldn't" rust since they're coated

Failure2Stop

03-02-12, 17:06

The Honeycomb supposedly increases barrel stiffness. Make sense considering the strength of the honeycomb in concept though I havent seen any testing to prove it.

Not addressing you personally, but rather the statement, as it is pretty commonly seen when discussing fluting.

One cannot make an item stronger by removing material.
The statements about strength are in comparison to a barrel of a diameter that would be equal in weight to the fluted barrel.

I have seen zero proof that any fluting design is stronger than the "normal" straight parallel flutes.

It looks cool, and really, that should be enough.

wahoo95

03-02-12, 17:10

Not addressing you personally, but rather the statement, as it is pretty commonly seen when discussing fluting.

One cannot make an item stronger by removing material.
The statements about strength are in comparison to a barrel of a diameter that would be equal in weight to the fluted barrel.

I have seen zero proof that any fluting design is stronger than the "normal" straight parallel flutes.

It looks cool, and really, that should be enough.

Would barrel stiffness or rigidity and barrel strength be the same or couldn't they be different? Just asking because I know some materials may be stiffer than others but not necessarily stronger.

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usmcvet

03-02-12, 17:11

I missed the coating. I had a Bushmaster with a fluted bbls. It never had much more than a light coating if rust occasionally on the bbl. I was sucked I to the increased surface area = quicker cooling of the bbls. They also claimed huge increases in strengh/rigidity..

pruitt0212

03-02-12, 17:20

I personally think it looks awesome! Dimpling does as well IMO. I plan to get my 12" LMT MRP barrel dimpled once I get it. I'm sure it will only save about 6oz or so, but I'm hoping it will help balance the gun out a little better.

Todd00000

03-02-12, 17:42

Not addressing you personally, but rather the statement, as it is pretty commonly seen when discussing fluting.

One cannot make an item stronger by removing material.
The statements about strength are in comparison to a barrel of a diameter that would be equal in weight to the fluted barrel.

I have seen zero proof that any fluting design is stronger than the "normal" straight parallel flutes.

It looks cool, and really, that should be enough.
I think strong is the wrong word, for a given area the bends and dimples, or flutes, in metal makes it more stiff; and as we know a stiff barrel is more consistent.

http://products.construction.com/swts_content_files/2346/E807148.jpg

usmcvet

03-02-12, 17:43

EzGoingKev

03-02-12, 17:44

I had Adco flute a heavy barrel to shave a bit of weight off and have something a little unique. The weight savings was barely noticeable and the handguard covers the flutes. Had I the chance to have a do over, I'd have just opted for a reprofile instead. Live and learn eh?
Randall Rausch advised me of this a little while ago when I was talking to him about weight savings.

Failure2Stop

03-02-12, 18:19

Would barrel stiffness or rigidity and barrel strength be the same or couldn't they be different? Just asking because I know some materials may be stiffer than others but not necessarily stronger.

Different fluting/material removal patterns might be stronger in relation to each other, but the non-fluted barrel will be stiffer/stronger/more rigid.

I think strong is the wrong word, for a given area the bends and dimples, or flutes, in metal makes it more stiff; and as we know a stiff barrel is more consistent.

http://products.construction.com/swts_content_files/2346/E807148.jpg

The bends and folds in the sheet you show have MORE material than a flat sheet that would cover the same square footage.

People constantly miss the point on fluting, of no fault of their own, but rather due to vague and misleading marketing statements about weight, strength, and cooling properties.

Think of an I-beam used in heavy construction.
A steel bar of the same dimensions would be stronger, but would be significantly heavier. Removing the least weight bearing parts allows the beam to retain a great deal of pressure before buckling, but it will not be stronger/stiffer/more rigid than the original bar.

Now let's bring this full circle, back to shooting.
What group of shooters are absolute fanatics about the highest levels of precision?
Benchresters.
They don't care about weight or aesthetics (at least not as much as performance).
At the end of the day, if it was a practical advantage, every serious competitor would be using one.
And, for what it's worth, they don't even agree on it, and world record holders are not all using them.
Read into that whatever you will, but from everything I have seen it would seem that the base quality of the barrel is more important than fluting, and far ahead of fluting appearance.

Failure2Stop

03-02-12, 18:32

Here's some stuff that google turned up, since I cease to be a useful resource as soon as I disagree with anyone's preconceptions:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/flute-not-flute-78240/
http://www.shilen.com/faq.html#question8
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3772543.msg35991942.html#msg35991942

wahoo95

03-02-12, 18:33

Different fluting/material removal patterns might be stronger in relation to each other, but the non-fluted barrel will be stiffer/stronger/more rigid.

The bends and folds in the sheet you show have MORE material than a flat sheet that would cover the same square footage.

People constantly miss the point on fluting, of no fault of their own, but rather due to vague and misleading marketing statements about weight, strength, and cooling properties.

Think of an I-beam used in heavy construction.
A steel bar of the same dimensions would be stronger, but would be significantly heavier. Removing the least weight bearing parts allows the beam to retain a great deal of pressure before buckling, but it will not be stronger/stiffer/more rigid than the original bar.

Now let's bring this full circle, back to shooting.
What group of shooters are absolute fanatics about the highest levels of precision?
Benchresters.
They don't care about weight or aesthetics (at least not as much as performance).
At the end of the day, if it was a practical advantage, every serious competitor would be using one.
And, for what it's worth, they don't even agree on it, and world record holders are not all using them.
Read into that whatever you will, but from everything I have seen it would seem that the base quality of the barrel is more important than fluting, and far ahead of fluting appearance.

Great points

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Todd00000

03-02-12, 18:59

Read into that whatever you will, but from everything I have seen it would seem that the base quality of the barrel is more important than fluting, and far ahead of fluting appearance.

Absolutely. I'm surprised this hasn't been lab tested.

Todd00000

03-02-12, 19:13

Here's some stuff that google turned up, since I cease to be a useful resource as soon as I disagree with anyone's preconceptions:

rl]

Not at all.

John_Burns

03-02-12, 19:39

The best a barrel can be after any type of fluting is as good as it was before the fluting.

If the fluting actually significantly increases surface area the barrel will cool somewhat faster than a barrel of the same weight without fluting. The rub with the cooling issue is that if the barrel wanders under heat then it really is not much of a precision barrel to begin with and fluting it will only increase machining induced stress.

When talking real precision barrels then the lapping process should be done after fluting.

One of the reasons winning benchrest shooters skip the fluting is because there are limits to barrel contours in light and heavy classes and a solid barrel of the max contour can make the weight limits. Stiff barrels do not win BR matches but HEAVY barrels do win.

Simply put light but stiff vibrates easier and faster. This is exactly the opposite of what we are trying to do in a precision rifle.

I build custom LR hunting rifles and we flute every barrel but it is mostly a cosmetic issue although a 1/8 inch with 12 flute on a 5.75 contour will cool a little faster in the summer when practicing than a comparable 4 Lb non fluted barrel. This will help somewhat in managing barrel life on a LR magnum rifle burning 70 grs of powder but the real gains are hard to quantify in a meaningful manner.

In the AR world I would view fluting as a strictly cosmetic issue and if the fluting is done after lap or the barrel simply is not ever lapped then you will give up a slight degree of precision to the fluting but it might be hard to find in a 16 inch AR with a collapsible buttstock.

I would assume the “honeycomb flute” is done with EDM.

NickelBoronMonkey

03-02-12, 19:55

Howdy everybody,

I'm happy to hear you guys so many questions about our barrels and the properties that the Hex Fluting creates. The long term study of vibrations has yielded facts that the firearms industry has failed to realize for years. Not that the industry naive or dumb just that different sciences fail to cross communicate enough to impact each other in any productive manner. Vibrations travel for longer distances in curves rather than on a angle. A prime example of this could be seen in hitting a steel drum vs hitting a steel box. A steel drum will resonate the vibration for as long as the shape can hold it. A steel box will only hold the vibration to the closest corner. The dissipation of an instance of vibratory motion; oscillation; quiver; tremor or whatever term you would like to use.

Our barrels are not Cold Hammer Forged (CHF). They are a 416R ordinance grade stainless steel, 3 groove polygonal, 5.56 NATO chambered, cryogenic treated, stress relieved barrel... There are about 2 dozen other procedures that go into the production and description of our barrels, however we need to hold on to our trade secrets.
It will shot sub MOA with cheap ammo XM193 or PMC 55 grain. We achieved a one hole group with 3 rounds of 5.56mm 77 grain OTM (Mk262 Mod 1) at a 100 yards. Anyone who has shot our barrels can attest to it's accuracy. Joey from WAR Sports was slightly off with it's weight but only by .7 pounds our medium contour 16" mid length gas system rifle barrel weighs in at 1.8 lbs.
Everyone of our barrels is Cerakoted to prevent any rusting or external oxidation.
Simple science fact: greater surface area equals greater heat dissipation given the same materials and relative mass.
Also strength and rigidity are not measured by how much material an object contains but by the ability for the object to retain it's original form.

We spent 3 years in R&D... it has been tested. Feel free to buy one and test it yourself.

The aesthetic qualities of our design are only a byproduct.

Some shooters that have used this barrel or will be using this barrel this year.

Steve Fisher
Kerry Davis
James Gilliland
Travis Haley
Brannon Lebouef
Gene Higdon
Some group dudes
and many more.

I have to go drink beer and make dinner... Everyone enjoy your weekend.

If you have question that I am able to answer feel free to email me at jamiewehmeyer@legionfirearms.com

rob_s

03-02-12, 20:02

I'd like to know the weight of the 16" and 18", not just how much weight is saved.

NickelBoronMonkey

03-02-12, 20:04

8 ounces from a 16"
9 from a 18"

Also, this design does not cause barrel walk.

John_Burns

03-02-12, 20:11

I'd like to know the weight of the 16" and 18", not just how much weight is saved.

Joey from WAR Sports was slightly off with it's weight but only by .7 pounds our medium contour 16" mid length gas system rifle barrel weighs in at 1.8 lbs.]

Also, this design does not cause barrel walk.

A properly stress relieved barrel will not walk no matter what external fluting is done.

Would you guarantee your “Honey Comb” barrel to outperform all barrels of the same weight in accuracy and consistency in point of impact under heat stress??

NickelBoronMonkey

03-02-12, 20:17

I guarantee SUB MOA for 10K rounds.

John_Burns

03-02-12, 20:34

I guarantee SUB MOA for 10K rounds.

Thanks for your response.

It seems that level of outstanding performance is available from other sources that don’t use a “honey comb” flute.

I am really not here trying to bust your balls but as I do build LR hunting rifles I am always interested in anything that might improve any aspect of LR precision.

I remain skeptical that the flute design offers any real world performance gain but it does look different.:D

Please contact me if in the future you have any real world data demonstrating your fluting to be superior to other type of fluting or even to not fluting based on barrel weight.

Thanks again.

Failure2Stop

03-02-12, 21:55

Not at all.

Apologies, meant to include a smiley to indicate the tongue in cheek nature of my reply, but it was a hasty response from the bar.

Failure2Stop

03-02-12, 22:03

I guarantee SUB MOA for 10K rounds.

At what distance, with what ammo, with how many round groups, with what time between shots, and for how many consecutive groups?

Or, simply, what are your testing parameters?

I'm not saying that you are lying or misleading, but the firearms industry is rife with pseudoscience and exaggerated claims of performance. For god's sake, we have 20 page diatribes on lubrication.
I have seen all sorts of claims from all sorts of people on all sorts of minutiae. I'm not going to ask you to divulge any of your trade secrets, but phenominal claims require phenominal data to support.

If you truly believe that your barrels are what you claim they are, send a few samples to the world record holders in precision benchrest. The performance should speak for itself.

I look forward to reading the reviews.

J.Boyette

03-02-12, 22:06

Thanks for your response.

It seems that level of outstanding performance is available from other sources that don’t use a “honey comb” flute.

I am really not here trying to bust your balls but as I do build LR hunting rifles I am always interested in anything that might improve any aspect of LR precision.

I remain skeptical that the flute design offers any real world performance gain but it does look different.:D

Please contact me if in the future you have any real world data demonstrating your fluting to be superior to other type of fluting or even to not fluting based on barrel weight.

Thanks again.

John,

You are correct in that you can find any barrel to out perform any other barrel with such statements.

Anyhow,

The main point being missed is the heat dispersion of the fluting. A person only flute's a barrel for three things.

1. reduce weight
2. Looks
3. disperse heat.

Only option 3 is correct in the use of shooting. The others are useless in the act. If you guys read what NickelBoronMonkey wrote:

greater surface area equals greater heat dissipation given the same materials and relative mass

Thats the whole point to this. So in a rapid fire situation or full auto this fluting design will cool faster then any other fluting pattern at this time, for a barrel of the same OD profile and OAL.

Heat is the # 1 killer of accuracy. But if you buy things based on looks, brand name only or CDI factor who cares right?

John

John_Burns

03-02-12, 22:36

The main point being missed is the heat dispersion of the fluting. A person only flute's a barrel for three things.

1. reduce weight
2. Looks
3. disperse heat.

Only option 3 is correct in the use of shooting. The others are useless in the act. If you guys read what NickelBoronMonkey wrote:

Thats the whole point to this. So in a rapid fire situation or full auto this fluting design will cool faster then any other fluting pattern at this time, for a barrel of the same OD profile and OAL.

Heat is the # 1 killer of accuracy. But if you buy things based on looks, brand name only or CDI factor who cares right?

John

Howdy everybody,

I'm happy to hear you guys so many questions about our barrels and the properties that the Hex Fluting creates. Vibrations travel for longer distances in curves rather than on a angle. A prime example of this could be seen in hitting a steel drum vs hitting a steel box. A steel drum will resonate the vibration for as long as the shape can hold it. A steel box will only hold the vibration to the closest corner. The dissipation of an instance of vibratory motion; oscillation; quiver; tremor or whatever term you would like to use.

It will shot sub MOA with cheap ammo XM193 or PMC 55 grain. We achieved a one hole group with 3 rounds of 5.56mm 77 grain OTM (Mk262 Mod 1) at a 100 yards.

We spent 3 years in R&D... it has been tested. Feel free to buy one and test it yourself.

The aesthetic qualities of our design are only a byproduct.

I would actually prefer such things to be true and I could obtain a licensing agreement to utilize said “honey comb” fluting into my products and gain an even better advantage over my competitors.

I am not holding my breath on the chance.

Nothing really wrong with having “honey comb” fluting on your AR and it just might be “The Beez Knees” as far as cool goes but if you are looking for a real gain in real world performance it seems to be somewhat lacking in real world data.

At what distance, with what ammo, with how many round groups, with what time between shots, and for how many consecutive groups?

Or, simply, what are your testing parameters?

These are exactly the types of things in which I am interested.

Mate

03-03-12, 01:19

Casull

03-03-12, 02:34

Seems to need stats and things from a lab for sure. When I first saw this kind of fluting I thought it was just for looks.

Sticks

03-03-12, 03:39

In concept it is interesting.

For the caliber of the barrel and the application, I don't see the advantages for the design other than the coolness (bling) factor.

Granted I don't know much about ballistic changes when heat is introduced to the barrel in the lengths discussed. At what temperature does the accuracy start to wander?

My PSL (7.62x54R) has a disturbingly thin barrel at 24.4", and rapid fire (heat build up) results in stringing shots vertically (about 1/8 MOA). After 10 shots at 1 every 3 seconds, then they start to string. After another 20 rounds it stabilizes to some extent and mine goes from a .75MOA to 1.5 rifle.

Who here has tracked what the industry standard 16" 5.56 barrels do under rapid fire in regards to accuracy?

Claims of a sub to 1 MOA barrel with bulk manufactured ammo are all well and good, and if true I would be all over it (how it compensates for inconsistencies in powder charge and bullet weight is beyond me). Even Federal National Match ammo has a .5 grain variance as their "within tolerances" (as of 5 years ago, and referencing there .308 ammo - I doubt that 5.56/.223 would be any different).

MistWolf

03-03-12, 04:19

Every barrel is a law unto itself. How much POI will shift from heat varies, even between barrels of identical dimensions and manufacturing method.

If you can deaden a barrel, that is, eliminate all barrel vibrations, it becomes very consistent even with "bulk" ammo. The barrel will also shoot more consistently with a wider variety of bullet weights & velocities. Of course POI will change as trajectory changes, but a "dead" barrel is much more forgiving and consistent. If the honey comb design deadens the barrel, there will be improved consistency

rob_s

03-03-12, 06:19

8 ounces from a 16"
9 from a 18"

this we already know

X - 8 oz. = Y
A - 9 oz. = B

I either need Y and B or X and A to find Y and B.

JoeBob

03-03-12, 09:41

+1 agreed

Every barrel is a law unto itself. How much POI will shift from heat varies, even between barrels of identical dimensions and manufacturing method.

If you can deaden a barrel, that is, eliminate all barrel vibrations, it becomes very consistent even with "bulk" ammo. The barrel will also shoot more consistently with a wider variety of bullet weights & velocities. Of course POI will change as trajectory changes, but a "dead" barrel is much more forgiving and consistent. If the honey comb design deadens the barrel, there will be improved consistency

John_Burns

03-03-12, 11:45

@ John Burns -
I'm not giving an out to the guys at Legion, but give them some time. This is all very new, and if it's what they say it is, then we'll find out. If not, then we'll find out equally as fast.

How many people bought an AFG without any real world data? It's not a barrel, and it's alot cheaper, but it's the same concept.
Thanks,
Mate

The guy said it had been in testing for 3 years. I was simply asking questions and trying to get information.

Based on my experience, no external work done to a barrel from contouring to fluting to carbon fiber wrapping will ever improve the accuracy of a given barrel from when it was an uncontoured blank. There is a reason there are limits on the maximum barrel contours in benchrest shooting.

If this has been tested for 3 years it would seem logical that the first tests would have been firing a group of barrels for accuracy prior the “honey combing” and then accuracy testing again after the “honey combing”.

Others have asked for real empirical data and so far none has been produced.

There really have been some pretty outlandish claims made that would be really easy to prove, if true, yet absolutely no data has been presented.

Does anyone really believe you could take a poor shooting barrel and then add special fluting to deaden the harmonics and have it turn into a tackdriver?

threeheadeddog

03-03-12, 19:33

Just a response on the stiffness aspect.

This is how is was explained to me and it makes sense.

Basically, if you have 2 parrallel planes attached at the ends they will resist bending because in order for them to bend the outter plane of the bend would have to be longer. This makes sens because the outter lane on track and field track is in fact longer than the inside lane.
Now a circular barrel has essentially continious parrallel planes around the barrel. By adding flutes or flats you increase the surface area and increase the rigidity.

The example I was given was cardboard. If you look at cardboard is is simply 2 planes seperated by crossbars. It does resist flexing quite well (in one direction). While its overall strength is not better its resistance to flex in the direction of the crossbars is significantly better than it would be if it were just cardstock of even a considerably heavier amount. The reason is every crossbar increases the surface area of the material(I believe 33%).

SMETNA

03-03-12, 19:38

militarymoron

03-03-12, 20:00

By adding flutes or flats you increase the surface area and increase the rigidity.

only if you're adding flutes or flats by adding material, not removing material.

also, the example you used for stiffness doesn't apply to the dimpled or honeycombed barrels - only to fluted ones. dimples and honeycombs break up the 'continuous parallel planes' along the axis. get a metal bar. put a single dimple or notch in it. bend the bar with the dimple along the axis. it's going to bend where you put that dimple. honeycomb is stiff only in the out of plane direction, not in-plane.

BAC

03-03-12, 20:17

My PSL (7.62x54R) has a disturbingly thin barrel at 24.4", and rapid fire (heat build up) results in stringing shots vertically (about 1/8 MOA). After 10 shots at 1 every 3 seconds, then they start to string. After another 20 rounds it stabilizes to some extent and mine goes from a .75MOA to 1.5 rifle.

You have a .75MOA PSL? :eek:

-B

threeheadeddog

03-03-12, 20:40

only if you're adding flutes or flats by adding material, not removing material.

also, the example you used for stiffness doesn't apply to the dimpled or honeycombed barrels - only to fluted ones. dimples and honeycombs break up the 'continuous parallel planes' along the axis. get a metal bar. put a single dimple or notch in it. bend the bar with the dimple along the axis. it's going to bend where you put that dimple. honeycomb is stiff only in the out of plane direction, not in-plane.

I completely understand that this doesnt apply to other than flats or flutes. I agree with you fully there. I do disagree that the flats or flutes only work when adding material. They only work when adding surface area, which is different.

militarymoron

03-03-12, 20:56

I do disagree that the flats or flutes only work when adding material. They only work when adding surface area, which is different.

flat or flutes can help heat dissipation with the increased surface area, yes. but they won't increase rigidity if they're machined into an existing barrel by removing material.

i don't have anything against fluting, dimpling or this hexagonal-shaped machining. i have a dimpled barrel myself because i like the look, and i wanted to make an existing barrel a bit lighter. it also does cool down faster, which i don't really care about. i personally like the look of the hexagonal cutouts, they look cool (to me).
but, i'm skeptical when there are claims of improved accuracy from such modifications. i've an open mind, and am always willing to listen as to why that would be. if something works, it works; or not.

kartoffel

03-03-12, 21:06

Howdy everybody,

Our barrels are not Cold Hammer Forged (CHF). They are a 416R ordinance grade stainless steel, 3 groove polygonal, 5.56 NATO chambered, cryogenic treated, stress relieved barrel... There are about 2 dozen other procedures that go into the production and description of our barrels, however we need to hold on to our trade secrets.

Niiice. Y'all are officially on my short list for mah next stainless barrel. ;)

KG_mauserman

03-04-12, 02:07

[QUOTE=NickelBoronMonkey;1247267]

It will shot sub MOA with cheap ammo XM193 or PMC 55 grain. We achieved a one hole group with 3 rounds of 5.56mm 77 grain OTM (Mk262 Mod 1) at a 100 yards.

I really want to see some hard data on these claims. 3 rounds of 77 grain into one hole is reasonable, However I'd be more interested in what this rifle can do with 10 round groups. If you can get XM 193 to shoot sub MOA with a 10 round group consistantly you are truely a magician. Personally I don't think the ammo is consistant enough to hold sub MOA in 10 round groups (which is kind of the standard when judging accuracy). I would love for you to provide some real data for these claims. I'm not calling you a lair. Its just that my extensive personal experience with XM193 is that its just not capable of being that accurate irregardless of what barrel it comes out of. Please prove me wrong. Even if it isn't true they do look cool.

MistWolf

03-04-12, 05:29

flat or flutes...won't increase rigidity if they're machined into an existing barrel by removing material...

This is correct. However, the fluted barrel will be stiffer than a simple round barrel of the same material, length and weight

MistWolf

03-04-12, 05:50

...Based on my experience, no external work done to a barrel from contouring to fluting to carbon fiber wrapping will ever improve the accuracy of a given barrel from when it was an uncontoured blank. There is a reason there are limits on the maximum barrel contours in benchrest shooting.

This is very true. A poor quality barrel is a poor quality barrel

Does anyone really believe you could take a poor shooting barrel and then add special fluting to deaden the harmonics and have it turn into a tackdriver?

Absolutely not. Making a barrel "dead" improves it's consistency.

If you take a barrel that groups well with a certain bullet weight & design at specific velocity, the barrel is accurate. But if the groups open up when changing the bullet weight and/or velocity, or the POI changes in a way that doesn't match the change in trajectory, the barrel has an inconsistency. "Deadening" the barrel has beeen shown to improve barrel consistency.

One fellow who is a member of benchrest.com has performed many experiments using barrel weights on 22 match rifles, not to tune the barrel to shoot a single load best, but to deaden barrel vibrations, completely if possible. In doing so, he has found these rifles shoot consistently better with a wider variety of ammo brands and the groups are round. This fellow uses match barrels and the rifles are shot in competition.

Of course, it's useless to "deaden" a barrel with a bad crown, worn muzzle, inconsistent bore or some other accuracy killing problem

Find ManBearPig!

03-04-12, 06:01

As others have said, I too want to see some testing data on this. How much abuse have you put the barrel through? What does you barrel offer me over standard AR barrel? What does your honeycomb fluting offer me over standard fluting? I'd like to hear what the manufacturer himself has to say on this. How big of a difference does it all really make in practice?

Also, I will admit, that is probably the most sexy dimple job I have seen to date. Sorry KAC, but that pattern is just so damn cool. If the barrel really does perform, please make one in 6.8 so I can make a really good looking hunting AR with it! :p

Darkop

03-04-12, 09:34

I like the idea of cooling the barrel quicker. I would like to have a
1. Dimpled Barrel
2. Traditionally fluted Barrel
3. Hex fluted barrel
4. Non fluted
All of the same material, preferably from the same stock and manufacture. Shoot a 20 shot string and then using an IR Thermometer measure (at the same location on the barrel) the barrel's temperature immediately after shooting and then every minute after that for 5 minutes. Do this with each barrel and record, to discern which type of fluting cools faster.

I wonder if there is a way to use this technology in the design of suppressors to cool them quicker?

Until that day,
Darkop

militarymoron

03-04-12, 09:50

This is correct. However, the fluted barrel will be stiffer than a simple round barrel of the same material, length and weight

that's understood. in general, fluting is done to reduce weight, and the fluted barrel is less stiff than one of the same contour.

MistWolf

03-04-12, 18:57

that's understood. in general, fluting is done to reduce weight, and the fluted barrel is less stiff than one of the same contour.

That's a given. As you point out, it's a mistake to think cutting flutes to a barrel will add stiffness to that barrel. it's also a mistake to compare the two because the reality is, assuming good quality, we end up choosing barrels based on their weight class and should be choosing the best performing barrel for the mission within the chosen weight class. A fluted barrel and a non-fluted barel of the same profile are in different weight classes.

What we need to realize is that a fluted barrel of the same weight is stiffer and has better heat dispersion than a standard barrel. Now the question of barrel choice is more focused and the answer clearer- Does the benefit of added stiffness and heat dispersion of the fluted barrel offset the added cost?

Now, whether I am building a precision rifle for accuracy, or a carbine that will need to handle high volume fire, which needs to be kept light because it will be used in the field, the advantages of a fluted barrel against a standard profile barrel of the same weight class can be objectively assessed