View Full Version : Building with Lunch Money.
PA PATRIOT
03-02-12, 10:40
After years of reading different threads here on M4Carbine on what makes one manufactures AR build better then others it usually requires a substantial investment which places it outside the ability of the under employed enter level novice to afford.
Also one must also factor in funds for ammunition and some form of entry level training to have the ability to deploy the AR safely utilizing basic tactics.
So with the above said I had several members at my local club ask what what would be the Cheapest possible entry level build which would be deemed acceptable for the non-LEO to use for basic home self defense and lower level training courses?
The hope is that the suggestions are based on practical bare bones recommendations that guys making minimum wage can eventually afford and not degrade into a brand war.
IMO PSA is hard to beat without worrying about brand reputation.
There are so many more people here infinitely more qualified to speak to this than I am, but after looking for several months at different build costs, I am sure you could actually build a rifle for less than you could buy a complete unit, but I think you would have to really shop for deals and try to buy as many pieces from the same vendor as possible to save on shipping. You can buy a quality rifle like a Colt 6920 in the mid to high $900's range (Grant from G&R Tactical has great prices on them).
If you go to the PSA (Palmetto State Armory) website, it looks like you can get a complete rifle kit shipped for about $700 with no upgrades. you can buy the individual pieces from the kit for just slightly less shipped $695. That would be a basic, decent quality (from what I have read here) rifle that should serve your purposes and your budget. So, for approximately $275 less than what you could get the Colt, you can build a rifle from parts. Of course, this does not include a sling or any stock, fore end, grip, sight, etc. upgrades.
I hope you are able to find something in your budget that works well for you. Good luck in finding what you need.
After years of reading different threads here on M4Carbine on what makes one manufactures AR build better then others it usually requires a substantial investment which places it outside the ability of the under employed enter level novice to afford.
Also one must also factor in funds for ammunition and some form of entry level training to have the ability to deploy the AR safely utilizing basic tactics.
So with the above said I had several members at my local club ask what what would be the Cheapest possible entry level build which would be deemed acceptable for the non-LEO to use for basic home self defense and lower level training courses?
The hope is that the suggestions are based on practical bare bones recommendations that guys making minimum wage can eventually afford and not degrade into a brand war.
This kit (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits/16-m4-cmv-standard-rifle-kit.html) + PSA lower (or other readily available lower) + rear sight = one cheap carbine that ticks all the right boxes.
They're out of stock now, but I think they last time they had them they were around the 450 range + the 100 for the lower and +/- 25 for a Matech off ebay and you're in for $575 give or take.
That is extremely cheap considering to have an operational BCM upper, you're down 400 for the upper + 140 for the BCG + 20 for CH + 30 for hand guards + +/- 25 for the Matech and you still don't have the lower.
To clarify, I'm not recommending PSA over BCM, just answering the question.
Bare in mind, a lot of recent negative reports have come about about PSA. But it seems to me that they have just been some growing pains. Time will tell, but they have always done right by me. Worst case scenario you either fix a problem yourself or upgrade the parts.
If you need to get out with as little money as possible and still have a decent entry level AR look here.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=811036
He is showing the carbine out of stock however. Drop him a line or give him a call. He could give you an estimate of when he'll have more in stock.
This topic has come up here before, and I've considered several takes on various articles that explore the subject. I did write an article for Combat Tactics on the AR Hierarchy of Needs but I've wanted to do something more specific.
I don't see a distinction between LEO and non-LEO civilian use.
I think one way to approach this is to look at the Explanation of Features, or simply the list of features from the Chart, and establish which ones are most critical. For example, I'd place having a high-quality BCG over having a "milspec" barrel, provided the chamber in the barrel was a true 5.56 or I could get someone to ream it for me.
But with Colts hovering in the $900-$1k range right now, I'm not sure how much someone thinks they're going to shave off of that and still have an acceptable level of reliability and longevity. Fact is, some things just cost money. I can buy a Ferrari for $15k, but it ain't no kind of Ferrari anyone is going to want. I used to say "the best sub-$800 AR is an AK" but with the exponential increase in AK prices coupled with the garbage I've seen lately at prices that are shameful I'm not sure that advice still applies.
PalmettoPrecision
03-02-12, 11:04
My humble opinion, is to try to find a deal on a top tier manufactured rifle. Top tier companies sell extremely well built rifles without all the extras included (rails, aftermarket stocks, etc.) I agree with the above, PSA is very hard to beat for the price, you get more than what you pay for with them. The grand opening of their new store was about three weeks ago, right down the road from me... they were selling stripped lowers for 44.95.
Keep in mind the good manufacturers, and keep an eye on Gunbroker.
Phila,
Are we talking full up build from components accumulated over time, or just the least expensive acceptable system for home defense?
If we are discussing just the best, or most cost effective, setup, my choice would be the 6920, no optics, irons only, Viking tactics light mount, Surefire G2, and 5-6 Brownells mags. Rough cost about $1100 (in my area).
This would allow room for growth long term but would, in my opinion only, be a very acceptable entry level setup.
Just my .02 cents.
I think a good way to go about this would find a high quality AR from a reputable manufacturer that is slightly used.
A couple hundred rounds to a BCM, DD, or Colt isn't gonna hurt it - but it will drop the sticker price.
But with Colts hovering in the $900-$1k range right now, I'm not sure how much someone thinks they're going to shave off of that and still have an acceptable level of reliability and longevity.
how much of that cost is due to the union? I'm not trying to start a union vs non-union argument, but I think most people would agree that all things held constant, the non-union product will probably be cheaper.
I own PSA and Colt. My PSA hasn't given me any issues, but if the SHTF and I can only take one, well the PSA is staying home.
how much of that cost is due to the union? I'm not trying to start a union vs non-union argument, but I think most people would agree that all things held constant, the non-union product will probably be cheaper.
I have no idea.
Here's the thing though, unions or no, I don't know of anyone doing it as well and following every detail. So maybe it *should* be less expensive, but others are offering "almost as good" and "nearly as good" for the same price, so...
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I agree with what Rob_S said about not seeing a distinction between LE and citizen as far a SD/HD.
I assure you, in a SD situation, I want my AR to probably be better than LE because I don't have backup (or a partner), I don't have a vest, and I may not have a secondary sidearm at the time.
With that said, I think a person can build a good rifle cheaper than a <$1000 Colt but I don't think he can build a "better" gun for cheaper.
But maybe it's just me...
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mkmckinley
03-02-12, 11:27
I wouldn't advise anyone to build their own AR for any sort of defensive use unless they have a lot of experience. There's just too many ways for someone to mess it up if they don't know what right looks like.
I have no idea.
Here's the thing though, unions or no, I don't know of anyone doing it as well and following every detail. So maybe it *should* be less expensive, but others are offering "almost as good" and "nearly as good" for the same price, so...
.
I agree with what Rob_S said about not seeing a distinction between LE and citizen as far a SD/HD.
I assure you, in a SD situation, I want my AR to probably be better than LE because I don't have backup (or a partner), I don't have a vest, and I may not have a secondary sidearm at the time.
With that said, I think a person can build a good rifle cheaper than a <$1000 Colt but I don't think he can build a "better" gun for cheaper.
But maybe it's just me...
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I wouldn't advise anyone to build their own AR for any sort of defensive use unless they have a lot of experience. There's just too many ways for someone to mess it up if they don't know what right looks like.
i can agree with all of these statements
Lots of difference between $600 and $1,000. 40% to be exact.
I'd rather see the man with a entry level AR than nothing because he could never afford anything else.
Maybe he needs to tell us what is budget is.
The advantage of a build for many is that they can buy parts/assemblies/ etc... in small increments that will not hurt their wallet as much.
For example- You can purchase as BCM 16" upper for 489.00.
Then you wait a month or two and purchase a BCG with charging handle- approx. 190.00
The following month you can purchase a lower parts kit and other small items- buffer and spring- approx. 120.00
Wait one month and then purchase your stripped lower and receiver extension- approx. 120.00.
Wait another month and then you purchase the stock and final misc. parts.
Or you simply purchase a BCM upper with handguards, BCG and charging handle.- 704.00
Wait a couple of months (2-3) and then get a finished lower (i.e. LMT complete for 330.00)
Or you simply wait 6-7 months after saving and then buy a complete weapon. One thing that can be done to help offset costs is selling unwanted/unneeded stuff around the house on Ebay, Backpage, etc....
DeltaSierra
03-02-12, 12:07
As far as I can tell, the best "budget" rifle is a Colt or BCM, as I can't understand the desire to "save" money on a tool that you may be trusting your life to...
Don't over look the BCM blem lowers. They save a good big of money and are a top tier piece of gear.
Keeping in mind the OP's parameters of a guy making close to min wage, possibly with a family to take care of etc...the $400 difference between a colt and a PSA is quite significant.
I can easily see the arguments for both a PSA or Colt equivalent tier rifles. To me, an AR is somewhat of a luxury item for most people, and a good handgun and a shotgun can be had for less than the price of a good AR and imo both should be had before an AR, making the AR not "necessary" for home defense.
Then I think it is up to the individual to be responsible to his family to decide what he can afford. Can you save for a year and have $600, or $1000?
To someone who CAN afford the Colt, DD, BCM, etc and just wants to pinch pennies, then my opinion is go with as high of quality as you can afford. If the $600 rifle is all you can honestly afford, I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all.
How about throwing S&W into the mix if you aren't comfortable buying from a relative unknown such as PSA? Atleast you're buying from a well known manufacturer who will fix anything defective, and you can upgrade what needs to be done things later on. From what I've read, their sport rifle seems to be of acceptable quality provided a few minor changes are made.
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In 2010, a guy at work wanted an AR but couldn't swing the $1000 in one lick. I suggested he put one on lay-a-way at Cabelas. The "best" I found at Cabelas has, IMO, is the S&W. He put $300 on an M&P 15 MOE that was on sale for $900. S&W had $100 Rebate, so he got the gun for $800 in 3-months.
Last year he saved some more money, sold the S&W, and went for a Noveske. For what he sold the S&W for, he only needed $700 more. A "leap frog" approach works good too.
Another friend bought a used low end S&W MP15 to practice with. He had a Glock he had picked up at a Pawn Shop. At a Gun Show he traded the S&W and the Glock for a brand new really fine DD.
I have a good wife, but some guys are watched closer. It is more palatable for some women for their man to buy a GOOD used handgun every now and then. If that is the case, accumulate these handguns and then trade at few for an upper tier gun. The trick is buying cheap and in fantastic condition.
IG's idea of selling unused or lower tier stuff is always a good approach that I have used countless times. I think if a guy really, really wants an upper tier gun, he can do it...if he has enough imagination.
But maybe it's just me...
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Or you simply wait 6-7 months after saving and then buy a complete weapon. One thing that can be done to help offset costs is selling unwanted/unneeded stuff around the house on Ebay, Backpage, etc....
+1 This is the most logical thing to do. I am saving right know and I am unemployed. Granted its 50 to 100 a month. In the long run I will have a firearm I can depend on that will function when I most need it too.
I plan on getting a 6720 from G&R Tactical once I have the money saved up for it. Going cheap isn't an option when my life and the lives of loved ones might depend on it. I learned that from M4carbine.
I am by no means an AR guru but this site has taught me alot that I didn't know and I am still learning. I understand that being on a budget can be a problem for those who are not making alot of money like me.
I have given up TV, cigarettes, eating out and a few other things just to get the things in life I want. There are alot of free things to do in this world instead of sitting in front of a tv and getting lazy. I live in a rich historical area and never realized it till I got rid of cable.
So my advice and its only worth a grain of salt. Is save your money buy a good AR that you can depend on to save your life. Otherwise your might as well just send me your money so I can spend it on something more useful like my 6720.:sarcastic:
If you need something badly then sacrifice something to get it. We all have our pet perks. Something we believe we can't do without. Three years ago when I made a decision to get a quality AR, I couldn't afford it all at once. I gave up a smoking and went from bottle wine to wine in a box. Saved over $1500 that first year and got myself a 6920 as a reward of sorts for a job well done. Each year I have saved even more money since the price of vices have gone up! This past year I was able get going on a lightweight BCM assembly. Put the upper receiver group and BCG as the top priority since they seem to be the ones that go out of stock most often.Cost: $553 shipped. A few months later came the lower receiver group (Blem) w/ M4 buttstock for $304 Shipped. A couple of months after that, MOE handguard, Gunfighter CH, Troy fixed rear sight. Cost: $130 shipped. Total: $987.00 Somethings are worth waiting for. Make a plan and stick with it. It usually pays off.
PA PATRIOT
03-02-12, 18:36
The information requested is not for myself as I own a few quality AR's but for several individuals who have families and make minimum wage at best due to the current lack of employment in the area.
These rifles will be built as parts are acquired over time by a very competent Colt Defense L/E armorer but price plays a very critical role to these future owners as they are barely able to save over the drain of everyday bills.
Bare bones mid-level quality is acceptable and brand loyalty is non existent so recommendations for mixed brand parts builds is acceptable.
As far as I can tell, the best "budget" rifle is a Colt or BCM, as I can't understand the desire to "save" money on a tool that you may be trusting your life to...
+1 Best advice I've read so far.
The information requested is not for myself as I own a few quality AR's but for several individuals who have families and make minimum wage at best due to the current lack of employment in the area.
These rifles will be built as parts are acquired over time by a very competent Colt Defense L/E armorer but price plays a very critical role to these future owners as they are barely able to save over the drain of everyday bills.
Bare bones mid-level quality is acceptable and brand loyalty is non existent so recommendations for mixed brand parts builds is acceptable.
If these guys are making minimum wages and have bills to account for and other financial responsibilities, maybe their best bet for home self defense is a well made pump shotgun, 500 rounds, and a day or two of good instructions. When they have improved their financial lot, then branch out to AR's or pistols or both. Sometimes a man has to be realistic of what he can afford for quality.
If these guys are making minimum wages and have bills to account for and other financial responsibilities, maybe their best bet for home self defense is a well made pump shotgun, 500 rounds, and a day or two of good instructions. When they have improved their financial lot, then branch out to AR's or pistols or both. Sometimes a man has to be realistic of what he can afford for quality.
This falls in line with my point, which is that certain things just cost money.
Cost savings is about the last reason left to suggest the shotgun for HD, but it's a GREAT one. I would also ask if these people already have a handgun, concealed carry permit, and adequate training. That should be the first priority of anyone with a defensive use in mind.
+1 This is the most logical thing to do. I am saving right know and I am unemployed. Granted its 50 to 100 a month. In the long run I will have a firearm I can depend on that will function when I most need it too.
I plan on getting a 6720 from G&R Tactical once I have the money saved up for it. Going cheap isn't an option when my life and the lives of loved ones might depend on it. I learned that from M4carbine.
This is what I was going to recommend. Save until you can buy what you need/want. You just can't beat the Colt at just under a grand. If you can't afford it, you can't have it. That's the mentality we should have. I'm not willing to sacrifice quality just to save a couple bucks, especially when saving for a couple months could have me where I need to be.
Very good point. People don't realize that you need to be able to feed the weapon and take care of it.
This falls in line with my point, which is that certain things just cost money.
Cost savings is about the last reason left to suggest the shotgun for HD, but it's a GREAT one. I would also ask if these people already have a handgun, concealed carry permit, and adequate training. That should be the first priority of anyone with a defensive use in mind.
I have been building an AR going on 3 years now. I scour backpage, equipment exchanges and the like. After all this time, I'm now down to only the sights. You dont need to be in a hurry. This build has not impacted my house/families financial needs at all. This wasen't an appempt for the cheapest, but a really good quality firearm that I could peice together over time. It can be done, be patient.
Heres my opinion for a cheap gun that will run. The most important parts of an AR are the barrel and the BCG. These two parts do the business, everything else is just there to make them run. Obviously you can't go cheap on the other stuff, but you don't need a noveske lower to have a gun that runs.
So here's what you do. You get the upper from PSA that comes with the cold hammer forged barrel. The CHF barrels that PSA are using are made by FN (the "machine gun steel" ones with "double thick chrome lining") and they are the same ones Daniel Defense and everybody else is using. If it works for DD, it works for everybody. Next, you get a BCG from BCM. I'm not saying that PSA doesn't make good BCG's, I just don't know if they do or not. Everything else on the rifle should be fine from PSA. With a barrel from FN and a bolt from BCM, you really can't go wrong. Add a rear sight, ma-tech if you want to start cheap, and you're good to go.
PA PATRIOT
03-04-12, 11:11
This falls in line with my point, which is that certain things just cost money.
Cost savings is about the last reason left to suggest the shotgun for HD, but it's a GREAT one. I would also ask if these people already have a handgun, concealed carry permit, and adequate training. That should be the first priority of anyone with a defensive use in mind.
All but one has a CCP, all have Used (Refurbished by Glock) Glock 17's or 19's 9mm pistols, three have Remington 870 12ga Express shotguns with 18.5 in barrels and the other two have Mossberg 12ga pumps.
They all shoot tactical pistol matches at the club in the non member open class which is a pay as you go event. They also shoot skeet and trap on non member open range days.
They buy cheap skeet reloads at the club for the shotguns and shoot $8.99 a box Wolf 9mm.
They all wish to be able to shoot three gun matches and hence the need for the AR's and to have a better balanced home defense option.
These are some decent guys who live on a shoe string and struggle to afford the luxury of shooting sports. We have all been there at some point in are lives so trying to offer options they can afford reminds me of myself back in the early days trying to afford just the basics.
I can't help but wonder if this is the best path for them. I'm not their mommy, but while I'd love to race top fuel and go yachting, these things just are not within my financial reach. Even if I could afford the dragster, I couldn't afford to feed it the fuel and replace broken parts. If someone gave me a yacht I couldn't afford the dock space. Hell, there are regular street cars I'd love to have and could afford to buy but couldn't afford the gas for them.
I would not, in good faith, recommend to anyone an AR for any kind of (perceived?) defensive need that cost <$900. I would tell them to get something else, or use what they have.
If their only purpose is 3-gun I would buy the cheaper of the Oly/DPMS and go shoot 3-gun.
The PSA kits are probably impossible to beat purely from a monetary standpoint. They definitely aren't crap compared to other stuff at a similar price point. (The usual suspects)
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