View Full Version : How Much Does Mag Capacity Influence Your Pistol Choice?
With modern ammo largely leveling the playing field, 9mm handguns obviously offer a lot of round capacity. However, say if you had access to a lot of .45 acp would you mind the reduced mag capacity?
More is always better but statistically very few rounds are fired in the average gun fight.
How much does this factor in to your decision on the size and caliber of your choice of carry and HD pistol? Or is, say, concealabilty more important to you?
I carry a XD45 (13+1) but really am considering going to a XDm9 3.8 (19+1) like my wife's. I'm comfortable with both as far as function and capacity but really like the idea of 19rd mags because I normally don't carry a second mag around.
I'd rather have and not need than to need and not have as the saying goes.
Guns-up.50
03-03-12, 10:05
With modern ammo largely leveling the playing field, 9mm handguns obviously offer a lot of round capacity. However, say if you had access to a lot of .45 acp would you mind the reduced mag capacity?
More is always better but statistically very few rounds are fired in the average gun fight.
How much does this factor in to your decision on the size and caliber of your choice of carry and HD pistol?
This almost feels like a 9mm vs the .45acp? Assuming not I would sill prefer my g19 wich isnt much more than some hi cap .45s. Lighter in same package. I would still want a higher round count multiple attackers, rare case a longer fight ect.
Rounds on target with hydrostatic shock is what counts and I can shoot a 9mm faster than I can 10mm or .45acp so I carry 9mm. That said, I used to want the most amount of rounds as possible like 17+1 with my SR9 or 20+1 with my Sig Tac Ops.
The thing is though the more I paid attention to the pros, the more I realized my want for higher capacities were rooted from a few things; The first was my lack of knowledge that you reload when you have time, not when you're empty. Second was that I lack the skills to do a proper fast tactical or administrative reload. Lastly, I think I had some amount "Tacticool" enthusiasm for more rounds.
I now carry a 15+1 pistol, two spare mags and a back up.
This almost feels like a 9mm vs the .45acp?
Not if you read the first sentence of my post.
Nephrology
03-03-12, 10:11
Rounds on target with hydrostatic shock is what counts
Hydrostatic shock isn't a real thing.
I carry a 9mm because 9mm is cheap practice ammo.
I do enjoy the increased capacity. In a "midsized (G19 ish)" or larger handgun I want a minimum of 12 rounds. 9mm gives me that pretty easily. .40 could too, but I do not enjoy shooting it and see no reason to pay the increased ammo cost.
If I were to live or move to a state with a 10rd magazine capacity limit I would swap over to a .45 for my midsized carry.
I do not feel undergunned with a Glock 26 on the days in which my wardrobe is more constrained, such as most summer days. given the choice, however, I would pick the glock 19 over it.
The_War_Wagon
03-03-12, 10:17
Chip McCormick's decision to make a 10 round 1911 mag, made me transition permanently to the 1911.
In 2003.
Again, I don't want this to be a caliber debate. This question was also geared toward pistol size; how much mag capacity are you willing to sacrifice for concealabilty? What are all the factors that you conside? important.
I asked this partially because I am looking for a new carry pistol and would would not hesitate to go with 9mm or 40sw. However, I have a few .45 cal pistols already and reload for it. For me it's just as cheap to practice with as 9mm. Then again I could also start reloading for 9 or 40.
I carry a 1911, so the mag capacity must not have to much effect on me. Shot placement is what matters. You can miss with 7 rds or you can miss with 19rds. You just need to practie. I do however carry an extra mag.
Nephrology
03-03-12, 10:56
Again, I don't want this to be a caliber debate. This question was also geared toward pistol size; how much mag capacity are you willing to sacrifice for concealabilty? What are all the factors that you conside? important.
I asked this partially because I am looking for a new carry pistol and would would not hesitate to go with 9mm or 40sw. However, I have a few .45 cal pistols already and reload for it. For me it's just as cheap to practice with as 9mm. Then again I could also start reloading for 9 or 40.
In weather hot enough to be t-shirt only I carry a G26 because it is all that my body habitus can conceal most of the time. 10+1 rds of 9mm leaves me feeling OK. I usually carry a g19 mag in my front pocket for reload.
I will be honest I have never really strongly considered carrying anything besides a 9mm. It is the ammunition I can afford to shoot most often and feel I shoot the best, so I stick with it. I do not feel that I would be better armed with 10+1 rds of .45 vs 10+1 rounds of 9mm... just my.02 cents.
Beat Trash
03-03-12, 10:59
Again, I don't want this to be a caliber debate. This question was also geared toward pistol size; how much mag capacity are you willing to sacrifice for concealabilty? What are all the factors that you conside? important.
For a general carry gun, 10 round magazine capacity is about as low as I want to go.
I like the size of the Glock 19 down to about the Glock 26 as a carry gun. For almost the last year, I've been carrying my S&W M&P9c off-duty. But I'm about to start carrying my Glock 19 again, when on my own time.
With any of these guns, I'm looking at magazine capacity between 10-15 rds. I always try to carry one spare magazine.
I'm more than willing to go below 10 rds for what I'd consider a special purpose gun. by this I'm referring to a BUG or a deep concealment/pocket gun. Guns like the Walther PPS or the Kahr PM9, or J-Frame.
I will be the first to agree that shot placement is the important component. But even with that in mind, some people just need more than one shot to get them to stop doing whatever it was you shot them for doing.
The trend I've seen over the last few years in my region is for multiple suspects. Usually two to three. This concept was the basis of a topic started a while ago by Dr. Gary Roberts in which he referred the Glock 19 as the new J-frame.
So to answer the original question, "How much does mag capacity influence your pistol choice?", to me, quite a bit.
DanjojoUSMC
03-03-12, 11:10
You could say statistically you are not going to be in a gunfight, but since you are, then statistics don't mean much that day. Pulling the trigger is a lot better than reloading. Count on people not shooting well and performing a reload even worse.
Again, I don't want this to be a caliber debate. This question was also geared toward pistol size; how much mag capacity are you willing to sacrifice for concealabilty? What are all the factors that you conside? important.
I asked this partially because I am looking for a new carry pistol and would would not hesitate to go with 9mm or 40sw. However, I have a few .45 cal pistols already and reload for it. For me it's just as cheap to practice with as 9mm. Then again I could also start reloading for 9 or 40.
You say you don't want it to be a caliber debate, but it can't help but becoming one when you're comparing them. A 10-15 round 9mm pistol is not the same size as a 10-13 round .45.
If one completely discounts the caliber, then why wouldn't you opt for more rounds in a smaller gun?
Failure2Stop
03-03-12, 11:18
Around 15 is a decent number for me.
I also like to carry a spare magazine.
Weird shit happens in gunfights, and it's a good idea to have that spare magazine in case you have a mag related stoppage, you accidentally dump the magazine, break the floor plate while smashing the gun into the threat's face, or just plain have to shoot a lot more rounds than "average" (and exactly what the hell is an "average" gunfight anyway?).
Statistically, I won't ever bounce my car off the guard-rail on a twisty mountain road, but I do appreciate it being there, just in case.
You say you don't want it to be a caliber debate, but it can't help but becoming one when you're comparing them. A 10-15 round 9mm pistol is not the same size as a 10-13 round .45.
If one completely discounts the caliber, then why wouldn't you opt for more rounds in a smaller gun?
There are more considerations on caliber choice than ballistics. I expressed those considerations.
I'm lazy, I dont like to reload, so a high cap nine is good to have :) !
I carry a G17, feel pretty comfortable with it. I was carrying a G19 but the 17 carries as easily for me at least during the winter. I just got my permit in November so when summer gets here I'll either adjust and wear short sleeved button ups or I'll get a j frame revolver. I suppose we'll see.
I live right near school and there are occasional robbing sprees in the area so when I'm walking the dog it's nice to have 35 rounds on hand. The last time they robbed two guys and both were in the hospital for over a week. They didn't fight them, the guys just decided to have some fun.....animals.
Around 15 is a decent number for me.
I also like to carry a spare magazine.
Weird shit happens in gunfights, and it's a good idea to have that spare magazine in case you have a mag related stoppage, you accidentally dump the magazine, break the floor plate while smashing the gun into the threat's face, or just plain have to shoot a lot more rounds than "average" (and exactly what the hell is an "average" gunfight anyway?).
These are issues I hypothesized may be more likely than shooting a bunch of rounds.
Averages based on statistics reported of course. The Patriots scored and average of 33.7 points per game this year. Doesnt mean they are going to do that every game but it's something to consider if your betting on them
There are more considerations on caliber choice than ballistics. I expressed those considerations.
You said:
With modern ammo largely leveling the playing field, 9mm handguns obviously offer a lot of round capacity. However, say if you had access to a lot of .45 acp would you mind the reduced mag capacity?
So you were only referring to the economics?
Then no, I don't think you should choose a larger size, lower capacity gun for carry, based only on having access to a lot of ammo, if you discount the caliber as far as terminal ballistics.
Microalign
03-03-12, 11:44
12-15rds seems to be the happy range for me based on typical shooting techniques of today.
Six Feet Under
03-03-12, 11:49
It plays a part, but it's not the deciding factor. I'd rather have a gun I can shoot well that holds 8+1 and carry two spare mags than have one that I can't shoot worth a crap that holds 15+1 and a spare mag for that.
Good thing I shoot my G19 best, so I don't have to worry about that problem. :)
RogerinTPA
03-03-12, 12:16
Rounds on target with hydrostatic shock is what counts
You make baby Jesus cry and show your ass when you post stupid shit like that...
To the OP...A 10 round mag is about as low as I'd wanna go, with a spare mag or two.
RagweedZulu
03-03-12, 12:31
I don't worry so much about on-board capacity. I always carry a spare no matter what type of pistol.
If I'm taking along the G22, a spare 15 round mag goes on the off side. If I'm taking the 1911, at least one spare Mag is on my person.
The only time capacity becomes a drawback is the 5-shot J frame. The slow reloads preclude me from carrying it in all but the most deep concealment roles.
CloakandDagger
03-03-12, 12:32
I think reliability and durability is first and foremost. Then I want to be able to shoot the gun well, and I need a gun that carries nicely too. After that I think 12-15 rounds is a good number.
As you'll probably notice this narrows down the field to mid sized pistols like the Glock 19.
I carry a HK P30 V3 if that says anything.
Street Dog
03-03-12, 12:37
Ammunition is like money, you can never have to much. That being said, my first priority in a defensive pistol is reliability, and do I shoot the pistol well. Next is caliber and magazine capacity. I am secure enough in my manhood to carry a 9mm, but find myself always going back to a 1911 in 45acp, and do not have a problem with "only" eight round mags.
With modern ammo largely leveling the playing field, 9mm handguns obviously offer a lot of round capacity. However, say if you had access to a lot of .45 acp would you mind the reduced mag capacity?
More is always better but statistically very few rounds are fired in the average gun fight.
How much does this factor in to your decision on the size and caliber of your choice of carry and HD pistol? Or is, say, concealabilty more important to you?
It's low priority on my list, for my needs, compared to other factors. If all other recs are met, more ammo is a + to be sure, but I carried a 1911 with 7+1, plus one 8rnd mag, for a few decades before going to the M&P 9mm.
Rounds on target with hydrostatic shock
Ugh.... that term and concept debunked a long time ago in regards to duty loads and has not existed in the lexicon of people informed on terminal ballistics for a long time. Might want to update your knowledge base there. Doc Roberts posts in the terminal ballistics forums a great place to start. :cool:
For duty and HD, not at all. Glock 21SF with grip reduction and Arredondo +4 baseplates. That gives me 18 in the gun and another 34 on the belt or nightstand drawer.
For concealed carry, I've done a lot of experimentation up to this point. While I can carry the 21SF concealed, I prefer not to. Currently I carry a S&W 1911PD rail gun with 9 in the gun and two spare Wilson 47D's. It seems to conceal better for me than my G-19. The 19's blockiness seems to be the culprit.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1153.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1156.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1160.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1162.jpg
None at all. If I like a pistol enough to carry it or train with it then whatever the magazine capacity is fine with me. After all, reloads are my favorite thing to practice.
Capacity is one of several factors that influence my choice of pistol, but not the most important one.
I used to carry 1911's. There were several factors causing me to switch, including carry weight, ease of maintenance, reliability (you can maintain a reliable 1911 but it takes more expense and work, both upfront and ongoing), and yes, capacity.
packinaglock
03-03-12, 18:56
Enough that I very seldom ever carry my PM9 that is so comfortable to carry. While I will carry my G26 or G27, more often than not it's my G19 or G23.
Ballistic Agency
03-03-12, 19:57
Chip McCormick's decision to make a 10 round 1911 mag, made me transition permanently to the 1911.
In 2003.
Not a great mag. There's not a 10 rd 45 1911 mag that's duty worthy. See Hilton's writings on this topic if you must carry this mag.
With modern ammo largely leveling the playing field, 9mm handguns obviously offer a lot of round capacity. However, say if you had access to a lot of .45 acp would you mind the reduced mag capacity?
More is always better but statistically very few rounds are fired in the average gun fight.
How much does this factor in to your decision on the size and caliber of your choice of carry and HD pistol? Or is, say, concealabilty more important to you?
The way I see it, when the missions drives the gear then you must step back and analyze what is best for the mission.
If it is conceal carry then conceal-ability is important as well as being able to quickly react and get in the fight, being able to get hits, and having an effective round. If all rounds are effective, the pistols of said caliber can be concealed, brought to the fight quickly, are accurate, then more rounds will win. If a given gun has one of the other needs at a level that is so bad like the gun jams every 5 rounds where a slightly lower capacity gun runs 100% reliable then it is better at getting rounds on target despite having fewer of them.
For home defense I think it is much easier because you don't have other needs that will contradict and fight maximizing magazine capacity. Don't exactly have to worry about grip size or protruding magazines all that much.
Again, I don't want this to be a caliber debate. This question was also geared toward pistol size; how much mag capacity are you willing to sacrifice for concealabilty? What are all the factors that you conside? important.
I asked this partially because I am looking for a new carry pistol and would would not hesitate to go with 9mm or 40sw. However, I have a few .45 cal pistols already and reload for it. For me it's just as cheap to practice with as 9mm. Then again I could also start reloading for 9 or 40.
If the reloading only makes the 45 equal to 9mm store bought and all other needs of the mission are met then you might as well go with capacity if that is the only thing remaining. If you can save more money getting into 9MM reloads over the long haul then it is a bonus. In a hypothetical situation of free .45 and still paying for 9MM then it is harder because then you have to decide between all the free practice you can do/becoming more proficient and not needing more capacity or going with more capacity as a crutch to not being as proficient as possible due to monetary constraints, that of course is an unlikely situation and always has the other possibility of carry a 9MM like the main practice .45 although it wouldn't be perfect.
Perhaps actually think of different guns that are in the general direction of what you need and meet all the bare minimal requirements then see where each one of them is better or worse then each other and decide which categories are more important then pick one gun out that way.
For duty and HD, not at all. Glock 21SF with grip reduction and Arredondo +4 baseplates. That gives me 18 in the gun and another 34 on the belt.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1153.jpg
Every time I see one of these duty belts two things pop into my mind. First, that is a ton of weight to be carrying around and having to move in and out of a patrol vehicle all day. Two, y'all must know something the everyday, Ma & Pa type folks don't know if that is your standard load-out. I hope you can keep your head on a swivel and keep safe.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-03-12, 21:36
Not much. I usually carry a 5 shot 38 spl. I have a bunch of .45s and 9mms and shoot them all quite a bit. But most of the time ease of carry and concealment is far more important than other considerations. If I was a soldier (who for some reason got to pick his own weapons) I would probably carry something like an HK45 since I would want the most reliable gun I could find that shot the biggest bullets I could find. So I guess 5 rounds is my minimum for civvy carry and 10 rounds for ninja carry.
Maverick07
03-03-12, 22:16
I carry concealed for duty so the size of my weapon is an issue. I carry a Glock 19 Gen 4 for duty purposes. Great gun... no issues.
However, if Glock were to ever unf**k themselves and fix the Glock 30 so it had a 19 style compact grip, instead that abortion it has now, I would drop my 19 like it gave me herpes... provided it was as reliable as my 19. I prefer .45 over 9mm. It is also a matter my confidence and belief in the .45 cartridge. I have nothing against 9mm.
I did recently pick up a used HK45C and will ring it out to see if that is a platform that works for me in .45. It is one of the few Glock 19 sized platforms out there and I acknowledge I would be basically reducing my capacity by half. So after all that the answer after all for this kid is capacity is a not driving factor in platform consideration between the .45 and 9mm.
Guns-up.50
03-03-12, 22:37
Not if you read the first sentence of my post.
aaha I did read the post thats why I snuck that almost in there;)
R3V3LATIONS
03-03-12, 22:56
Magazine capacity is one of the driving forces for my concealed carry pistol. I realize that handgun bullets suck at stopping people, no matter what caliber or ammunition type, and subscribe to the philosophy that the more bullets i have immediately available to 1: put down range and on target = increased potential to cut down on reloads (assuming no magazine failures) the better, which leads me to point 2: the conditional ability, given point one occurs, to fight back to a better weapon or position of advantage/call & wait for backup (if on duty) or bug out (if off duty) Either way, if I have to get in a gunfight with a pistol, its a bad day, and I hope I never end up there.
So for me, I'm best served by my old, tried-abused-and trusted generation three glock 17. I carry that SOB everywhere all the time just fine and I'm about 5'11 160lbs. I personally would not want to go smaller than a compact pistol for CCW...its a comfort issue, but YMMV
Speaking personally, magazine capacity has definitely influenced my choices. With a nod to Maverick07: my G30SF (45 ACP 10+1) was in my hands subjectively my most accurate pistol, but I'm moving towards an all 9mm Glock fleet now, and the G30SF was just recently put up on consignment. The physical dimensions are quite close to those of the G19, with the critical exception of the stick-of-butter-sized slide on the G30, but the higher magazine capacity and 'controllability' of the 9mm cartridge, combined with the performance of modern defensive ammo, has carried the day for me.
=====
Here's another, albeit geographically limited, consideration for your research question: those behind the lines in NY and MA who are restricted by law to 10 round magazines, or NJ (restricted to 15 rounds, and a 'ban' on HP ammunition), face a slightly different calculus that can and does affect their choices.
In NY and MA, pre-ban standard capacity G17, G19, G21, G22 and G23 magazines are a possibility, as the guns existed and were broadly available pre-ban, and thus the pre-ban magazines can be found (and are exempt from the respective AWBs). I'm willing to bet that this adds to the attractiveness of these Glock models in NY and MA(1). By contrast, >10 round capacity magazines for post-ban era guns (e.g., H&K P30, M&P9, FNP45), would all be post-ban, and thus unlawful for civilian possession in NY or MA. If you are behind the lines and purchase one of these post-ban era handguns, you will be limited to 10 round magazines, making these guns less attractive/popular. This restriction also affects the choices of persons who travel into MA as non-residents (i.e., persons who live over the border but travel into MA with an MA non-resident license). Those pre-ban Glock magazines are getting longer in the tooth now, but (like beachfront real estate) they ain't makin' any more of them....
In NJ, based on anecdotal experience the G19 is the 9mm Glock of choice, as the G17 can only be had with 10 round magazines (absent a grip chop). That said, the NJ 'ban' on HP ammunition probably pushes some in the direction of larger calibers, such as 45 ACP, so this may push back against the attractiveness of the 11-15 round 9mm and .40 pistols. (There is functionally no civilian CCW in NJ, however, so this is strictly a home defense matter anyway.)
(1) MA FFLs are not able to transfer post-1998 Glocks (and many other pistols) to civilians in MA, so they're not available for retail sale, and are therefore much harder to come by, so I'd bet that this 'you can get lawful standard capacity magazines' effect is small or even slight in MA.
/sorry for the footnote in a forum post - I need to step back from the keyboard now
i carried a p7 with 8+1 and a reload for awhile. I was comfortable with that.
i love carrying my g19, because as far as civilian shootouts go, it's the infinite ammo cheat code. the odds of me having to burn 15 rounds in a justifiable shooting are near zero. I still always carry a reload with that gun though. it's too easy not to.
I carry my j-frame quite a bit. it holds 5. I'm not in love with this fact. 5 rounds is plenty for one attacker up close. with more than one it would basically require you to pop off 4 fast and run like hell. I carry one speed strip with this gun.
I've been considering a walther PPS. it doesn't hold much more ammo than a j-frame, but it seems like it would be much easier to shoot accurately under stress. (love the trigger, good sights, regarded as very accurate) Also reloading an automatic is far easier.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=10637&d=1325457052
8+1 .45 in this Micro.....and alot of practice.
I have often pondered this question. I have decided that run what works, I switch between my Glock 19 and a spare G17 mag, and my 1911's and carry 3 Wilson 47D mags. (always have, don't ask why) round count is the same, with the exception of reloads.
Might the decision lie within what your environment is? If your in a more rural area, where game animals are larger, and your chances are better of running into an ankmal attack rather than an armed attacker, bigger would be better.
As stated before in those thread, the mission would decide the gear.
I have often pondered this question. I have decided that run what works, I switch between my Glock 19 and a spare G17 mag, and my 1911's and carry 3 Wilson 47D mags. (always have, don't ask why) round count is the same, with the exception of reloads.
Might the decision lie within what your environment is? If your in a more rural area, where game animals are larger, and your chances are better of running into an animal attack rather than an armed attacker, bigger would be better.
As stated before in those thread, the mission would decide the gear.
It doesn't. I'm not a cop nor am I expecting to be storming any buildings etc. For my personal protection I'm perfectly fine with my P7M8. There are others in different situations, who may think differently. I think it all boils down to what situation you are in personally.
Beat Trash
03-04-12, 09:35
i carried a p7 with 8+1 and a reload for awhile. I was comfortable with that.
i love carrying my g19, because as far as civilian shootouts go, it's the infinite ammo cheat code. the odds of me having to burn 15 rounds in a justifiable shooting are near zero. I still always carry a reload with that gun though. it's too easy not to.
I carry my j-frame quite a bit. it holds 5. I'm not in love with this fact. 5 rounds is plenty for one attacker up close. with more than one it would basically require you to pop off 4 fast and run like hell. I carry one speed strip with this gun.
I've been considering a walther PPS. it doesn't hold much more ammo than a j-frame, but it seems like it would be much easier to shoot accurately under stress. (love the trigger, good sights, regarded as very accurate) Also reloading an automatic is far easier.
Like your P7, I carried a S&W 3913 (8+1) for a few years, a long time ago. I was comfortable with the capacity, at that time.
I totally agree with your comments on the Glock 19.
You've hit upon why the J-Frame, while an excellent BUG, has some draw backs. In my city, it's more common than not to hear broadcasts for robbery suspects, plural. Usually two to three.
The Walther PPS is a great gun, I've had one since last summer. But it is anywhere from 6+1 to 8+1. When both guns are fully loaded with 147 gr ammunition, the PPS (6+1) is only 1.69 oz lighter. With the 8+1, the PPS is only 0.28oz lighter, but the height is much more than the Glock 26.
We all live and work in different environments, with different threat levels. One must assess their needs first. I only suggest you don't automatically assume that if you ever are forced into a life threatening encounter, that it will be just one suspect, who will be 3"-5" away. If I could predict the perimeters of a critical incident before it occurred, I'd stay home that day!
Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.
For me, capacity is one of the factors I consider. This is why my older gen3 Glock 19 isn't going anywhere.
Tango Charlie145
03-04-12, 10:43
I believe and make a practice that capacity can make a difference. Like many others here, the Glock 19 is what I consider a perfect compromise between size and capacity. Along with being able to accept G17 mags, the capacity issue is not a concern. And, like the poster above in reference to "suspects", I believe in the "factor of 3" and attempt to train for that type of engagement. An extra magazine is ALWAYS reccomended mainly for malfunctions as well as a reload. Nothing is more disconcerting when you are at a stage of fire that requires a set amount of rounds and for some reason one of the rounds does not go bang. That is unforgiving in a real gunfight if you do not have another magazine. I was always taught to shoot from full magazines, no matter how many rounds the stage of fire required. Train like you fight.
Hope this helps.
Strength and Honor!
Lost River
03-04-12, 12:48
While I am comfortable carrying one of my 1911s, and qual'ed on one for off duty carry, I more often than not carry my G19. Simply for the fact that in the recent past # of years I had been overseas working and using an issued G19 as a work gun.
In that time, when I would come home on break I would carry a personal G19, since that is what I had been training so much with. It simply made sense, since I had so much trigger time with it. I found the G19 was an easy gun to shoot well and its size was ideal for concealed carry (for me).
Since then I have continued to use the G19 as an off duty gun and not carry my 1911s as much. The G19, with an extra G17mag really does seem to be about as ideal of a cc/plainclothes rig as I have found.
Like your P7, I carried a S&W 3913 (8+1) for a few years, a long time ago. I was comfortable with the capacity, at that time.
I totally agree with your comments on the Glock 19.
You've hit upon why the J-Frame, while an excellent BUG, has some draw backs. In my city, it's more common than not to hear broadcasts for robbery suspects, plural. Usually two to three.
The Walther PPS is a great gun, I've had one since last summer. But it is anywhere from 6+1 to 8+1. When both guns are fully loaded with 147 gr ammunition, the PPS (6+1) is only 1.69 oz lighter. With the 8+1, the PPS is only 0.28oz lighter, but the height is much more than the Glock 26.
We all live and work in different environments, with different threat levels. One must assess their needs first. I only suggest you don't automatically assume that if you ever are forced into a life threatening encounter, that it will be just one suspect, who will be 3"-5" away. If I could predict the perimeters of a critical incident before it occurred, I'd stay home that day!
Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.
For me, capacity is one of the factors I consider. This is why my older gen3 Glock 19 isn't going anywhere.
yeah the j-frame has serious drawbacks, but it lets me avoid bringing a leatherman to a gunfight. I've got a thread over in revolvers about my journey to j-frame proficiency.... It's all I've been shooting at the range lately.
I basically bought it because i found myself going unarmed too often.
Every time I see one of these duty belts two things pop into my mind. First, that is a ton of weight to be carrying around and having to move in and out of a patrol vehicle all day. Two, y'all must know something the everyday, Ma & Pa type folks don't know if that is your standard load-out. I hope you can keep your head on a swivel and keep safe.
You have no idea how bad I wish our agency would switch to nylon. I have a nylon rig from my previous agency that weighs half as much. I carried a G-34 there and was happy with it, but TCSO mandates the G-21 .45. As for the load out, I know what I don't know, that's why I carry as much as I can reasonable carry. :)
More is always better but statistically very few rounds are fired in the average gun fight.
Statistically, most people will never use their gun in self defense either but I still carry.
I carry a G19. Round count was definitely considered in the process of choosing the 19. I will only carry 9mm's as far as I am concerned though.
Sine I own more Colt 1911s than any other platform, I would say it doesn't. :p
TacMedic556
03-04-12, 20:38
If you dropped me into a riot or Mogadishu type environment containing a seething mass of individuals that wanted my scalp, the magazine capacity and how many magazines I could carry (# of rounds total for fight) would make a difference.
I carry an M&P9... with the clothes I wear it doesn't conceal easily but I carry it for its capacity. I'm trying to save money right now for a PPS but that won't happen for quite a while. However, the extra capacity of the FS M&P over the PPS is very nice if needed... as many people have said. You never know when you may need the extra ammo and a slow, fumbled reload may cost you if you aren't proficient.
Here's another, albeit geographically limited, consideration for your research question: those behind the lines in NY and MA who are restricted by law to 10 round magazines, or NJ (restricted to 15 rounds, and a 'ban' on HP ammunition), face a slightly different calculus that can and does affect their choices.
In NY and MA, pre-ban standard capacity G17, G19, G21, G22 and G23 magazines are a possibility, as the guns existed and were broadly available pre-ban, and thus the pre-ban magazines can be found (and are exempt from the respective AWBs). I'm willing to bet that this adds to the attractiveness of these Glock models in NY and MA(1). By contrast, >10 round capacity magazines for post-ban era guns (e.g., H&K P30, M&P9, FNP45), would all be post-ban, and thus unlawful for civilian possession in NY or MA. If you are behind the lines and purchase one of these post-ban era handguns, you will be limited to 10 round magazines, making these guns less attractive/popular. This restriction also affects the choices of persons who travel into MA as non-residents (i.e., persons who live over the border but travel into MA with an MA non-resident license). Those pre-ban Glock magazines are getting longer in the tooth now, but (like beachfront real estate) they ain't makin' any more of them....
In NJ, based on anecdotal experience the G19 is the 9mm Glock of choice, as the G17 can only be had with 10 round magazines (absent a grip chop). That said, the NJ 'ban' on HP ammunition probably pushes some in the direction of larger calibers, such as 45 ACP, so this may push back against the attractiveness of the 11-15 round 9mm and .40 pistols. (There is functionally no civilian CCW in NJ, however, so this is strictly a home defense matter anyway.)
(1) MA FFLs are not able to transfer post-1998 Glocks (and many other pistols) to civilians in MA, so they're not available for retail sale, and are therefore much harder to come by, so I'd bet that this 'you can get lawful standard capacity magazines' effect is small or even slight in MA.
/sorry for the footnote in a forum post - I need to step back from the keyboard now
While I agree w/ much of what you say, I do need to clarify that HP is not illegal in NJ. How you use it, may be considered illegal, but it is not illegal to own HP. I've spoken to the NJ State Police on this issue a few times for clarification. The law is thus....
You can legally own HP
You can legally shoot HP at the range
You can legally use HP in a defensive situation. However, if the shoot is considered non-legal, then they will throw using HP at you on top of whatever other charges they hit you with.
Having said all that, I currently have my HD pistols loaded w/ Fed EFMJ in 9mm & .40.
For the OP, we can't carry in NJ, but I do believe capacity trumps caliber.
I like more rounds when possible I usually go with a G19 or 17 and a spare 17 mag. I like the larger grip surface when doing reloads but thats me.
I'll carry a J-frame as a primary in a low threat situation. While obviously 5 rounds is not the best I do carry a speed loader. However, its easy to conceal and always goes "bang" which makes it an easy choice for throwing on a gun quick...better than nothing as they say. I've carried 1911's for years as well so 7+1 or 8+1 was never an issue for me. Recently I've moved to a M&P9c which negates all of the above. Easy to conceal and 12+1 capacity. Still usually carry the j-frame as a BUG.
This.
It plays a part, but it's not the deciding factor. I'd rather have a gun I can shoot well that holds 8+1 and carry two spare mags than have one that I can't shoot worth a crap that holds 15+1...
And that.
...the mission would decide the gear.
As a mild mannered middle aged fat guy who carries concealed for my own protection (the mission), I don't feel under gunned with something like an 8+1 commander sized gun. Yeah, a G23 or G19 are good bets too, with less weight and more ammo as a bonus, but I shoot a 1911 pretty well and I am stuck in a rut.
How many folks who feel the need for high cap mags plan on or need to stand and engage? I'm thinking a viable solution would be to protect life and exit stage left, mui rapido! In that scenario, I don't envision mag capacity as being a #1 priority.
Is this flawed thinking?
As for the load out, I know what I don't know, that's why I carry as much as I can reasonable carry. :)
I love that comment. One of the best things I've ever tried to learn and practice is I don't know it all.
Bulldog7972
03-06-12, 15:24
For duty and HD, not at all. Glock 21SF with grip reduction and Arredondo +4 baseplates. That gives me 18 in the gun and another 34 on the belt or nightstand drawer.
For concealed carry, I've done a lot of experimentation up to this point. While I can carry the 21SF concealed, I prefer not to. Currently I carry a S&W 1911PD rail gun with 9 in the gun and two spare Wilson 47D's. It seems to conceal better for me than my G-19. The 19's blockiness seems to be the culprit.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1153.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1156.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1160.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/DSC_1162.jpg
Is that a Nulls IWB holster?
How many folks who feel the need for high cap mags plan on or need to stand and engage? I'm thinking a viable solution would be to protect life and exit stage left, mui rapido! In that scenario, I don't envision mag capacity as being a #1 priority.
Is this flawed thinking?
Yes and no. Technically speaking in most situations you can probably just pop a few rounds off and split. However why hedge on that bet when you can easily prepare for more such as when one's assailants just will not let up, have you corned (imagine being in public place with one exit and two men walk in, one stays posted at the door, the other walks towards you and pulls out <insert here>), and many other situations.
Unless there is a reason beyond "well, you won't likely need X" then why go with Y? Consequently going with 8 rounds vs 15 might be better if one is significantly better with the 8 round gun, however in such a situation there is usually issues with someones skill where the 8 round gun is a crutch where they could practice and be much better off with a 15 round gun.
If you dropped me into a riot or Mogadishu type environment containing a seething mass of individuals that wanted my scalp, the magazine capacity and how many magazines I could carry (# of rounds total for fight) would make a difference.
And while I'm generally not a TEOTWAWKI type, the way the world (see Greece as an example) AND our country are changing - this isn't as far out from reality as I once thought! Part of the reason behind my switch from 1911 to G17. There is no such thing as having too much ammo.
john
CaptainDooley
03-06-12, 17:57
My mom didn't switch off of .45 until she moved to a new house. Her neighbor was a cop and would bring her two boxes of lawman every week or so - so she always had free practice ammo. She's currently shopping for a small 9mm because it's cheaper to shoot now that she's paying.
And that's about the only reason I could see staying with a lower capacity gun (free ammo) if you can shoot both guns equally well. I switched away from a 1911 about a year after I started carrying because I was tired of the weight of the 1911. The M&P I was eyeballing was much lighter and held twice as many rounds, which seemed like a no brainer to me. On top of that I shoot about twice as much as I used to since the practice ammo is nearly half the cost, which has made me a much, much better shooter with my 9mm...
Everything Ive read shows that most gunfights(not shoot and bad guy runs, but actual gun fights) go to slidelock. being able to put 2x more holes in a target before slidelock means target will stop doing what it was doing in about half the time. I dont care how fast you reload, its not fast enough, and may be slow enough to be the last thing you attempt. 1 more hole of 9mm negates any diameter difference of .45".
North Dakota Shooter
03-07-12, 13:47
8 to 15, but I'm a 1911 guy so I'm used to not having very large mags.
SilverTongueDevil
03-07-12, 14:07
I am just a CC civilian and I carry a revolver usually or my mustang pending weather both are just in case weapons nothing more nothing less plain simple reliable and decently accurate. I know there limitations and understand them no need to rehash anything its all been said.
To each there own.
Army Chief
03-07-12, 15:31
If I'm ever in a situation where two full mags of 1911 fodder won't (a) allow me to put an end to the thread, (b) hold the threat at bay until help arrives, or (c) allow me to fight my way to more ammunition and/or a longarm, then I probably had no business going there without dedicated air support in the first place. ;)
AC
LoneWolfRonin
03-13-12, 08:17
I dont mind the 10+1 of a G30, especially with 13 round G21 spare mags. That said i shoot a g19 better rapidly so this is a better fit for carry. Modern ammo does indeed level the playing field but untold numbers have passed from ball ammo. Shot placement is king and i carry what i shoot best.
Ammo capacity has never entered into my thought process for choosing a carry weapon. I feel no less capable whether I am carrying a G21 (13+1), a G30 (10+1) or a 1911 (8+1). Actually it doesn't bother me in the slightest to download my mags by one round for reliability purposes.
I surmise that because there are pistols available with large capacities there will always be people who feel that the must have the maximum.
Full disclosure: I am thinking about getting a G17 just so I have a 9mm. Currently I don't own anything in 9mm.
Ammo capacity is a minor concern
Does not effect my choice any. If I am purchasing a pistol I am going to buy from a good manufacture and one with a good rep that I am comfortable with and like. If I am in the need for more capacity I will carry a hicap one plus 1 or 2 extra mags. If I am in need for a compact concealable pistol and can't carry extra mags, that's why there is training and practice.
Please refer to my comments here: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1062710.
For most CCW use, I'd prefer a 9 mm with about a 15 rd capacity (G19, M&P9, HK P30).
If in a state with a 10 rd mag limit, then I'd lean toward a .45 ACP--M&P45, HK45c, custom 1911 or perhaps a smaller pistol w/native 10 rd mag capacity like an M&P40c, G26, or G19 cut for G26 mags.
I'm usually carrying a spare mag with me anyways or at least have access to 2 spare mags so capacity isn't really an issue for me. I'm carrying a M&P 45 Mid and feel just fine doing so. If 20-30 rounds isn't enough ammo for my environment then I'm seriously out of place and shouldn't be where I am.
Mag capacity has always been a concern. Though I have a Beretta 92F, 15+1 capacity 9mm, I prefer the .45ACP. My carry is usually a Glock G30SF with a 10 round capacity and a spare mag. At the house I keep a G21SF with a 13 round capacity and a couple of spare mags.
The extra capacity is what got me started with Glocks. I used to carry a compact 1911.
capacity is a factor, but not primary. Ideally, I'd like to have at least 10+1 rounds in the gun unless I'm unable to effectively conceal my primary compact. In which case, less rounds on tap would be acceptable.
QuickStrike
03-19-12, 16:34
But this IS a caliber debate. You simply can't squeeze anywhere close to the number of rounds in a .45 in a given mag size compared to a 9mm.
People complain about 1911's holding only 7+1. The HK45Compact with a concealable mag holds... 8+1. lol
Sure you can pack 10 rounders for the mag changes, but how many mag changes do you expect in a self defense shoot?
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