View Full Version : Moving away from 1911s
I am preparing to move away from 1911s for my EDC. The cost of maintenance and the expense of 45 acp is moving me into a 9mm for carry.
I have ruled out Sigs and HK for QC and cost issues. My top three contenders are the Glock 19, PPQ, and MP9c. The PPQ felt really good, but will require me to be very conscious of my thumb placement until I get more time behind it. It was relatively snappy for 9mm. The G19 felt a bit awkward due to the grip angle, but it was very controllable, with a decent trigger. The MP9c had decent ergos, and a passable trigger.
My concern with the PPQ is that it is relatively new with not alot of heavy testing yet. The G19s I can find are almost exclusively gen 4s with a few recent production gen 3's. For whatever reason the 12 round capacity of the 9c really bothers me when compared the 15rd capacity of the other two. In the end I would probably like to go with the g19 for its track record and capacity(for its size), but can they be made reliable with the aftermarket parts from Apex, or a fix from Glock?
Whatever way I go, I will continue to carry my 1911 until my new platform is proven to be reliable. Do I need to just sack up and pick one?
Thanks for your comments.
What sort of maintenance cost are you experiencing with 1911's. Mine just consume oil.. Ammo cost is a factor, but not really excessive I think.. I'm curious.. Ron
Beat Trash
03-03-12, 14:10
Do I need to just sack up and pick one?
Short answer, YES.
You can reach the point where it's like asking on line which fashion model you should go home with, the blond, the brunette, or the red head. (Red Head).
I have not shot the PPQ, but if with your hand, it'd require changing your grip, then there's your answer.
I carried a Glock 19 gen3 off-duty for about 11 years. I've carried a M&P9c for almost a year now. I don't really worry about 12 rds vs. 15. I carry one spare magazine with either gun.
If you go with the Glock 19, I'd look for either an older one, or the newest one I could find. Shoot the piss out of it and see if there is an issue with it before looking for fixes.
If you go with the M&P9c, I'd shoot it a bit. If you don't like the trigger, then call Apex.
Either way, I'd pick the one you shoot the best.
What sort of maintenance cost are you experiencing with 1911's. Mine just consume oil.. Ammo cost is a factor, but not really excessive I think.. I'm curious.. Ron
I broke the right side ambi-safety on my Kimber about 4k rounds ago and replaced it with an EGW at the same time I replaced the slide stop and FPS. My extractor is wearing and rounding some corners so I will need to pick up a new backup for my backup. That's only a couple hundred dollars. Ammo, that is my biggest expense. I don't reload and 100~250 rds per week add up, even at walmart prices. Wife wants kids, i'm looking to cut some cost etc etc...
I recently have done the same thing. I moved from my previous 1911 for a Springfield XD .40. I made that change not because I am lazy but I found it easier and more efficent for me to breakdown clean and assembled. Just my preference I guess. Like most cases I put myself in that unlikely 1% percent chance of anything happening and I thought the 1911 would me more of hassel for me.
I recently have done the same thing. I moved from my previous 1911 for a Springfield XD .40. I made that change not because I am lazy but I found it easier and more efficent for me to breakdown clean and assembled. Just my preference I guess. Like most cases I put myself in that unlikely 1% percent chance of anything happening and I thought the 1911 would me more of hassel for me.
OK.. The 1911 is easier for me.. Years of repetition I guess.. n
I broke the right side ambi-safety on my Kimber about 4k rounds ago and replaced it with an EGW at the same time I replaced the slide stop and FPS. My extractor is wearing and rounding some corners so I will need to pick up a new backup for my backup. That's only a couple hundred dollars. Ammo, that is my biggest expense. I don't reload and 100~250 rds per week add up, even at walmart prices. Wife wants kids, i'm looking to cut some cost etc etc...
I can understand that.. I've had parts breakage on my 1911's but it's been very minimal. I shoot 100 rounds per week as well and $35 a week does add up. 9mm is a-bit cheaper.. Ron
Street Dog
03-03-12, 15:07
We can debate whether the switch will save you money in the long run or not, but of the 3 choices you mention, the Glock 19 is the most proven, widely used, and easiest to support (maintainance, parts availabilty, and ease of repair if needed) of the three.
Any of the three will serve you well, just make an informed decision and run with it.
Glock 19 is incredibly simple to detail strip and maintain. You will be ecstatic about the difference between it and a 1911.
With the recent Gen 4 and Gen 3 quality issues though, I'd be leaning a bit more towards the M&P9
We can debate whether the switch will save you money in the long run True, I may just shoot more 9mm but it allows me to maintain proficiency at nearly half the cost if I have to cut back
Any of the three will serve you well, just make an informed decision and run with it.
I carried a G19 for a bit when I was in. I've been out since 07 and shooting 1911s exclusively but the transition back shouldn't be too difficult if I can find one that is reliable. I need to take one more trip to the range with my buddy's M&P and then hike it up and place an order.
abn45bravo
03-03-12, 16:14
I would say G19. My gen4 has been problem free so far (about 700rds).
Just telling you what I'd do here, it's a tough situation because I think actually ALL of the leading platforms have some issues right now in 9mm.
- IF your 1911 is stone cold reliable (or can easily be made so), and
- IF you have a lot of training and muscle memory built up on the 1911, and
- IF you are an effective shooter with it,
...then I would be inclined to hang onto the 1911 for now. What you have is cheaper than getting a new pistol, unless what you have is broken or ineffective.
If you're determined to get a new pistol regardless, I personally wouldn't get a Gen 4 Glock in 9mm. Some guys are having no problems, but too many are. If you want bomb proof reliability with the fewest known manufacturing issues at present, I'd have to say the HK P30, but that's not on your list, and is quite expensive compared to the others.
If it's not an option to stick with your 1911, REALLY, then of those you listed I'd probably go with the M&P9c. It's a nice, compact carry (I have one), and they are incredibly reliable. The 12+1 capacity is more than enough with the excellent modern HP ammo. There are some accuracy issues with the M&P 9mm's, I'm not yet convinced that they affect the compact models, but some think they do. My compact is accurate enough and there are lots of other reasons to like it.
Just telling you what I'd do here, it's a tough situation because I think actually ALL of the leading platforms have some issues right now in 9mm.
This is why I'm looking for advice
If it's not an option to stick with your 1911, REALLY, then of those you listed I'd probably go with the M&P9c. It's a nice, compact carry (I have one), and they are incredibly reliable. The 12+1 capacity is more than enough with the excellent modern HP ammo. There are some accuracy issues with the M&P 9mm's, I'm not yet convinced that they affect the compact models, but some think they do. My compact is accurate enough and there are lots of other reasons to like it.
I will be holding onto the 1911 until I have a reliable replacement.
Nephrology
03-03-12, 16:42
Really, any one of those 3 will do you fine. They all have potential shortcomings.
There are more functional Gen4 G19s and Late Gen3 G19s out there than there are broken ones. Yes, Glock ****ed up. But odds are on your side even if you get a gen4. The Glock gets my vote for that reason.
The other thing I like about the Glock is that they come in 3 sizes versus M&P's 2... I think the range of sizes allows you to strap up with a pistol that best fits the weather
I will be holding onto the 1911 until I have a reliable replacement.
Have you thought about buying a 1911 in 9mm for training and continue to carry the .45? Or getting an M&P 9mm with thumb safety for range work? Hilton Yam uses one and seems to like it. Either way, it gives you a less expensive alternative for training and allows you to keep carrying the 1911 if you wish.
Striker, not really. I don't feel that I put enough rounds downrange to swap calibers like that and not lose effectiveness. I also like to keep it simple, one caliber, one platform etc.
HalliganJoel
03-03-12, 17:52
Glock 19 is my pick. My mother carries a 9c. While I am impressed with the pistol I'm less than impressed with the trigger and the trigger reset.
It's hard to go wrong with a Glock. Especially the 19. A case could be made for it being THE Glock.
packinaglock
03-03-12, 18:00
Really, any one of those 3 will do you fine. They all have potential shortcomings.
There are more functional Gen4 G19s and Late Gen3 G19s out there than there are broken ones. Yes, Glock ****ed up. But odds are on your side even if you get a gen4. The Glock get smy vote for that reason.
True, my gen 4 g19 has run 100% through I believe around 700 rounds. The ejection is a little eratic with cheep ammo. M&P are sweet too, I have no experience with the PPQ's though.
The other thing I like about the Glock is that they come in 3 sizes versus M&P's 2... I think the range of sizes allows you to strap up with a pistol that best fits the weather
Neph, not following you on this one.
M&P9 has THREE sizes: compact, full-size, long (or Pro) model.
Nephrology
03-03-12, 18:40
Neph, not following you on this one.
M&P9 has THREE sizes: compact, full-size, long (or Pro) model.
The grip length on the Pro and the full size are the same, so for concealed carry they are effectively identical.
A closer comparison would be a G17 vs a G34. the M&P family has no "g19" sized pistol - their m&Pc is slightly larger than the G26, and the M&P9 FS slightly larger than the G19.
and even then, that would mean that Glock has 6 sizes of 9mm :)
Not all Gen 4's are bad, I've yet to have a problem with the one I got over a year ago. It is a bit funky ergonomically, but if you absolutely can't get around it, there are ways to make it work better for your hand with some undercutting of the trigger guard and what-not.
Your concern for the PPQ reliability should be offset by all of the positive comments in threads on here and the Walther forums. It is basically a proven design, a P99 with an updated trigger group. I just broke 1k round mark with mine and the only issue was one FTF caused by me when I loaded the magazine the 1st time I used it. I could only fit 14 rounds in the magazine, some how the 3rd round from the top wasn't seated correctly. That round caused the jam. Other than that the PPQ has been flawless, and is more accurate than I can shoot.
As for Sig's quality the last one I bought new was 2 years ago, a P239 sas. That pistol has never had a hiccup in thousands of rounds and exhibits typical Sig accuracy.. But it is also $375 more than a PPQ.
I am preparing to move away from 1911s for my EDC. The cost of maintenance and the expense of 45 acp is moving me into a 9mm for carry.
I have ruled out Sigs and HK for QC and cost issues. My top three contenders are the Glock 19, PPQ, and MP9c. The PPQ felt really good, but will require me to be very conscious of my thumb placement until I get more time behind it. It was relatively snappy for 9mm. The G19 felt a bit awkward due to the grip angle, but it was very controllable, with a decent trigger. The MP9c had decent ergos, and a passable trigger.
My concern with the PPQ is that it is relatively new with not alot of heavy testing yet. The G19s I can find are almost exclusively gen 4s with a few recent production gen 3's. For whatever reason the 12 round capacity of the 9c really bothers me when compared the 15rd capacity of the other two. In the end I would probably like to go with the g19 for its track record and capacity(for its size), but can they be made reliable with the aftermarket parts from Apex, or a fix from Glock?
Whatever way I go, I will continue to carry my 1911 until my new platform is proven to be reliable. Do I need to just sack up and pick one?
Thanks for your comments.
What QC issues are their with HK?
You carried a gun with only 7 to 8rds and you don't think the 12rds in the M&P compact is enough?
Current production GEN 3 and GEN 4 G19's are probably one the least reliable guns you have mentioned. If you want a reliable G19, look for one made in 2010 (or older).
C4
The grip length on the Pro and the full size are the same, so for concealed carry they are effectively identical.
OK, so you weren't talking about the 3 different M&P sizes (compact/FS/Long), you were just talking about the different grip/frame heights of the gun, for concealability purposes. I didn't gather that from your earlier post.
Here's my perspective:
* If you want to carry a REALLY tiny pistol (for max concealability purposes), you prob want a single stack and in that case, I'd go for a Kahr or a Walther PPS. These would both be easier to conceal than a G26 or an MP9c, because they have a thinner profile.
* If you want something kind of mid-size in a 9mm, I think the G19 and the MP9c are great candidates. I still prefer the MP9c because for me, it carries better and I shoot it better. In fact this is still my carry pistol. I would try both of these stock, since they're on your list, and see how well you do with both.
Overall I think S&W has about hit it right with the three sizes and configurations available in the 9mm models. If you want something even smaller, I'd look to a single stack 9.
I too just recently decided to move away from the 1911 as my EDC. I got tired of the weight and the bulk; not that I did not fully trust my 1911 carry guns. I picked up an older almost new M&P9c (2006) and I tell you what, I'm sold. In the past week since I've got it I've put 700 rounds through it as well as a training class and it handled and performed very well. The trigger is not too bad in stock form when you really get to shooting it but I do have an Apex duty kit waiting to be installed. 12 round capacity is also nice and the 9c will be substantially smaller then the Glock 19 or PPQ which will help when trying to carry it. The 9mm cartridge is also a joy; a bit easier to stay on target then 45 acp even when shot from an all steel gun and way cheaper as well. I'm glad I made the switch and I'm glad I choose the M&P.
What QC issues are their with HK?
You carried a gun with only 7 to 8rds and you don't think the 12rds in the M&P compact is enough?
Current production GEN 3 and GEN 4 G19's are probably one the least reliable guns you have mentioned. If you want a reliable G19, look for one made in 2010 (or older).
C4
QC with sig, cost with HK.
I could have stuck with the 1911 in 9mm and only given up 2 rounds to the 9c if I really wanted and brush the dust off my Kuhnhausen. I really wish M&P had a mid size for the 9mm.
Cliff notes of the OP.
Can't find older gen 3 19. Is there a reliable fix for the newer gen3/gen4?
PPQ feels good but has the HK style slide release/snappy recoil.
MP9C has great ergos, I'm 10minutes from ATEi, mag capacity is holding me back.
Thanks for all the input so far
MP9C has great ergos, I'm 10minutes from ATEi, mag capacity is holding me back.
I'm with Grant on this one, I don't understand how mag capacity is a problem with the M&P9c when you are moving from a platform that only had a 7-8 round capacity? 12+1 sounds pretty substantial for a ccw piece especially when its only 3 less then the Glock or PPQ. Carrying an additional magazine is always a viable option.
A spare magazine is a given. In a separate thread you mentioned the models with the TS were your favorite Grant, can you expound on that? I've only shot the 9c and FS without.
I recently transitioned to the PPQ for my EDC. Been 100% for 2,000 rounds, and never throws brass in my face. All my upgraded Gen4 Glocks do that occasionally. For the "Snappiness" comments, i think the PPQ is just getting a bad rap from initial impressions from some shooters who only put one or two mags through it and then post their opinions. It is an extremely light weight gun, and has a little more muzzle flip than a glock (probably grip angle mixed with less aggressive stippling). However, now that i have shot a lot of rounds through the PPQ, i honestly dont fell it is any harsher to shoot than a G19. I cant tell any difference side by side. But i am more familiare with the PPQ now and grip it better than i did my first time out with it. To me the PPQ is hands down a more fun gun to shoot. That trigger lets you do some target bullseye practice if you want. The guns accuracy is amazing.
I like my G19 as well, just have to concentrate more for the same performance as I can get out of the PPQ.
Hogsgunwild
03-04-12, 20:53
My 1911 gunsmith has probably gone into foreclosure since I went over to / back to plastic guns. Seriously, I am amazed that I have not needed a gunsmith for anything for the last six or eight months.
Bought a sight tool for the M&Ps and installed the Apex parts myself.
My other plastic love is my four H&Ks which need no tweaking other than possibly a couple of front night sights.
I have some very reliable 1911s but have just had no desire to carry them lately. The lighter carry weight, higher capacity and other attributes of the modern plastic guns have trumped my 1911 fetish.
My M&P 9 compact has been a dream to carry and I have as much or more confidence with this gun as any. 12+1 plus two extra 17 rounders really rocks.
A 1911 in various brands and forms was my primary pistol from the late '70s until 3-4 years ago.
25+ years of muscle memory does not just change overnight.
What may seem to be a minor differences between pistols in grip and controls (especially triggers!), are not readily apparent at a gun store counter. These differences takes some time and work to get to an acceptable competency.
There are still days when I look back and count up the time, ammo, accessories, and weapons I bought and then traded for not working for me, and wonder if I had just bought a Wilson Combat it might have been a bargain. Because, I still shoot a 1911 better than anything else.
Good luck.
My 1911 gunsmith has probably gone into foreclosure since I went over to / back to plastic guns. Seriously, I am amazed that I have not needed a gunsmith for anything for the last six or eight months.
Bought a sight tool for the M&Ps and installed the Apex parts myself.
My other plastic love is my four H&Ks which need no tweaking other than possibly a couple of front night sights.
I have some very reliable 1911s but have just had no desire to carry them lately. The lighter carry weight, higher capacity and other attributes of the modern plastic guns have trumped my 1911 fetish.
My M&P 9 compact has been a dream to carry and I have as much or more confidence with this gun as any. 12+1 plus two extra 17 rounders really rocks.
Similar experience for me. Actually still prefer shooting my two remaining 1911 customs to almost anything else, but I NEVER carry them (for the same reasons you list), they are strictly for range/target shooting or could be used for HD if needed.
maddawg5777
03-05-12, 12:13
Lots of good ideas and info, ill throw this out there. Buy a reloading press, its cheaper than a platform/holster/ammo change, then 9mm/45 prices wouldn't be different. Also with a lot of the problems with the new 9mm wonder guns id wait it out a bit and see if the factory will fix any of these issues. Just my .02 and worth only about half of that.
Hogsgunwild
03-05-12, 13:23
That is another thing I like about 9MM. I never bother to save the brass.
I doubt that I will ever reload for 9MM as it is so cheap but that could change. I have a ton of .45ACP brass and still pick it up quite often at the range but have not really had the time to use my Dillon reloader for several years.
maddawg5777
03-05-12, 13:41
Only reason i have 9mm and 5.56 brass is range clean up, But if i still owned a 45 and reloading press would be my #1 priority.
StrikerFired
03-05-12, 14:02
I carry the M&P 9c with the ATEi trigger upgrades. I have at least 800rounds through it with no problems. I like the M&P platforms a little better then Glock because they fit my hand better. If the Glock fits you better then go for it.
jbourneidentity
03-05-12, 14:08
I went through this very same transition, and I switched to the Glock 19 9mm. I have not regretted the transition one bit.
I'm a career LEO and I now teach full-time at a police academy. We have 100 students put over 100,000 rounds downrange annually. Mind you, I'm not a 1911 basher and I do not wish to change the topic, but I do believe in what the empirical data shows me. My experience has been that when we have 1911s in our basic academy classes, they break down more than other models...by far. In a class two years ago, we had four 1911 pistols from reputable makers. All four malfunctioned to the point that they had to be removed from service and the four students successfully finished the training with Glock 22s.
Hilton Yam at 10-8 Performance recently taught a 1911 training course in Washington State. There were 19 students with 19 1911 pistols. All 19 pistols failed and needed maintenance. That is simply not acceptable, particularly if you're not an armorer, which many people are not.
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/
So, I made the switch to the Glock 19 for the following reasons:
*New 9mm self-defense ammo is superb.
*More economical to shoot.
*Incredibly reliable and simple design.
I think you have made a good decision.
I am preparing to move away from 1911s for my EDC.
The G19 felt a bit awkward due to the grip angle, but it was very controllable, with a decent trigger.
I made this move about a year ago. Some focused work on my draw stroke solved the grip angle issue. For me, size is the main Glock grip issue. I had a grip reduction done on what became my EDC G19. I recently tested it against an unmodified Glock on the timer, and it was faster on reloads, splits, etc. YMMV.
The Glock trigger is another story. I grew up on match-tuned guns and the Glock trigger drove me nuts. It’s so long/heavy that waiting for a surprise break as you would with a 1911 actually makes groups bigger. I found that the same smooth but vigorous press that you’d use with a DA revolver (or a staple gun) works better.
The best way to smooth out a Glock trigger is to shoot it. 5-6,000 rounds should do the trick. To lighten it, the OEM 3.5# or (-) or “minus” connector seems to give the lightest pull with OEM parts. It moves the break point forward and the reset gets a little mushy, but you can test dozens of OEM parts mixes for under $50.
Speaking of parts, you can learn to swap them by watching YouTube. The only tools you need are a 16d nail and a roll of electrician’s tape.
Glock accuracy has a lot to do with ammo. Most defense-grade hollowpoints shoot very well, but practice ammo is all over the map. Load A may shoot 3.5” at 25 yards in Pistol B, then barely hold 6” at 25 yards in Pistol C. Also, POIs change when you change ammo and not just in elevation. For that reason, a sight press is money well spent—it makes rezeroing faster and easier.
Finally, to really lower ammo costs, buy at least 1k rounds at a time or get some buddies together and buy 10k. I’ve gotten factory ammo (not reloads) for under $10/box by ordering large amounts in advance.
Do I need to just sack up and pick one?
Yes.
Okie John
Once again thanks for the input. Just pulled the trigger on a 9c. It appears the newer 19s are still somewhat of a crapshoot and I already got lucky with my 1911.
High Altitude
03-05-12, 22:59
You'll enjoy the 9c. I like mine, but I still keep coming back to my glocks.
I have a new gen4 19, only a few weeks old, 750 rounds of various kinds of ammo and no malfunctions. Runs great.
honestly in the long run, p30s are not that much. I would look hard at one with a LEM trigger.
That said, I prefer the grip angle of glock, once you get it down, its hard to go back to a regular grip. Id suggest a g19, Even gen 4, get a lone wolf extractor and the good springs and you should be set.
Straight Shooter
03-07-12, 13:12
In 2005 I switched from 1911's to Glocks after over 2 and a half decades of shooting, carrying and competing with them.
I spent 3 weeks CONSTANTLY dry firing, drawing, and practice reloading, then I started shooting the shit out of them.
Ive never been sorry for the switch, nor looked back.
I do not have first hand knowledge or experiance with the newer Glocks. I do know mine are 100% reliable and trustworthy.
If you switch from one to another, commit yourself to relearning your new choice, train and practice hard with it, and youll be GTG.
A Glock 19 gen 3 seems to be the most proven.
I know G19's are popular but if you carry a 1911 already I would say switch from a full size to another full size. Go with a G17.
crusader377
03-09-12, 10:03
Like the OP, I used to shoot the M1911 and BHP all of the time. Although I still shoot both pistols, I largely transitioned to the M&P 9 and could not be happier. IMO the M&P combines the great ergonomics of the M1911 with all of the maintenence, reliability, and cost advantages of a modern polymer pistol.
I bought the 9c from a M4C member and took it to the range today. Put ~250 rounds of UMC 115g downrange and 50 federal champion 115g. Accuracy was good, POA/POI out to 50ft. With slow fire I was able to keep hits on a 3inch dot at 50'. Didn't take it out further but the weapon won't be the limfac. Pretravel will take some getting used to, probably just take it to ATEI and have some magic worked on it. So far, very pleased.
Does anyone use any sort of magazine extensions or the 17 round + grip extension for their spare magazine when CCing?
On thing that moved me away from 1911 for carry was the weight and capacity. It is great for everything, but even with aluminum frame, it was too heavy compared to something else that can have almost double the capacity.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-11-12, 17:28
Go back!
I started out on wonder nines and other modern guns but have actually moved to the 1911 over the past 20 years. I carry a colt Cco with Heinie sights but otherwise stock. It is very light, thin and has an excellent trigger. I find that I shoot my 1911s better at all ranges, but especially at longer ranges.
Different strokes!
Hahaha, if the wife wants to go back to work after having kids I just might! Honestly there are more important things to me than carrying the hottest, best pointing, most high-maintenance weapon, that costs an arm and a leg to feed. I'd much rather put that money into our Roths/pay down the mortgage/etc and 9mm allows me to maintain my proficiency at a reduced cost... I just don't look and feel as cool...
I seem to shoot better with 1911s too. I'll probably carry that until I'm either better with my Glock, or I just get tired of it.
Oddly, when I pick up my 1911 after any lengthy period of time I proceed to outshoot my polymer 9mm pistols.
So "Thor's Hammers" lie dormant but I don't think they go...
The HK45 made me think about it but the harder I run drills the larger the gap btwn them.
I've not reached the level where none of that matters yet as I've witnessed guys shoot everything about the same.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Does anyone use any sort of magazine extensions or the 17 round + grip extension for their spare magazine when CCing?
I take it you're talking about a sleeve...?
http://shop.customcarryconcepts.com/product.sc?categoryId=2&productId=2
Yes. They seem gimmicky. I plan on using the 17rd mag as my spare.
Update:
My 124+p Speer GD's came in so I took them to the range with some 115g commercial reloads. Pictures should be self explanatory. The 20/25yd shots with the GD's were with very slow controlled fire, just to see how good I could be with the shorter sight radius.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv33/earny_2009/IMG_2729.jpg
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv33/earny_2009/IMG_2731.jpg
There is alot of pretravel in the trigger with very little to no noticeable reset so my rapid fire really shows how bad my trigger control is. I sped things up with the 115g reloads and brought it into 20yds:
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv33/earny_2009/IMG_2733.jpg
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv33/earny_2009/IMG_2732.jpg
The 25yd grouping with the GD's is probably the peak of my abilities and I'm happy with how things went today.
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