View Full Version : Bushido Tactical?
Anyone know anything about these guys?
http://www.bushidotactical.com/
Very little. They posted a topic in the training forum at AR15.com (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=1&t=225797) asking for people who wanted to host them. I looked at their web site and saw no names listed. I mentioned that I would not pursue hosting an organization without knowing exactly who was involved. The response was that they won't divulge names except to students in the class. That's a little too late for me. My time and work getting these things arranged is too valuable to waste that way. As a student, I feel the same way. There is no way in hell I'd register and pay money for a class with someone about whom I know next to nothing.
They seem to be either new or relatively inexperienced dealing with private citizens, so that may be the issue. I'm an outsider to the military and civilian police world, so perhaps that kind of "secrecy" is acceptable there. To me, it tells me it's not worth my time, trouble, or money worrying over when I have so many options that are known quantities.
Cost-wise they do a 2-day carbine for $295. Obviously, you get what you pay for, but that's not too bad.
Just knowing what I learned from there website.. I might be inclined to take a chance on them for that price..
I'm no genius. but if you look at the Photos page and watch the video.. You can kind of gather a sense of who and what they are... I have a pretty good BS meter and looking at the guns and gear.. I don't see anything that is not what it should be for a course like that. Guns and gear all look top notch.
The fact that there using the Brownell range and running LEO classes is another clue that they may be alright.
The title of the video actually has the three Instructors names in the beginning title.
The definitely look like they are geared more to the Mil/LEO community in there teaching style based on getting the snipers to run.
again.. just my perceptions gathered from surfing there web site.
For $295.. you may learn a technique or two.... If your looking hard enough..
cal them or email them and ask a few more questions..
Searching for the person listed on the "contact us" page shows that the name turns up a resume that includes time in the South African military and LE, as well as a sting at the Surefire Academy.
I'm not doing the organizing for the class, so I may take a chance on it since it should be relatively local.
I agree with you Harv re: the pics.
I'm the one hosting the class in Miami. I talked to the guy a little and was told they don't like to publish the instructors information since several of them are involved in undercover work. I can understand that.
Also, The resume is a little old but a little more googling and there are some other references to who he has trained with and for appear. My research gives me enough to feel that a small and private class with these guys might be fun and worth my time, especially for the cost.
I did get the elitist vibe of their site, kind of seems like they reluctantly train civilians. Also, in conversation, I asked if he would be willing to do some night/low light classes since it seems to be his specialty and he told me that they only offer such classes to law enforcement. That statement almost made me walk and not waste my time with them but the guy does seem like a nice guy and maybe he would change his mind when he seems the type of students I will be providing.
They are going to have to change that attitude if they plan on succeeding in civilian training.
Jay Cunningham
12-27-07, 20:37
Please let us know how the class works out.
Please let us know how the class works out.
Will do! If Rob makes it to the class I'm sure he will write one of those detailed, thorough reviews of his, and we all know "honest" Rob can be. :D
Jay Cunningham
12-27-07, 21:53
Thanks very much for the insight, Dano5326. It will help people make a decision on what they are willing to risk their money on.
Be advised: a bunch of the Surefire/Stratego crowd, I've previously seen, had minimal to no combat experience & their tactics were paintball/simunition driven. aka, sure to get you whacked in the dirt circuit.
I'm curious ... is the purpose of your warning to suggest that someone without actual combat experience has nothing to offer, or that the consumer should just be aware of their perpsective and act accrodingly as an educated consumer?
I was kind of wondering the same thing, since I personally think that actual combat experience gets WAY overplayed in some training circles.
Either way -- the outcome will be the same ...
If I drop $300 and learn something and get some good trigger time in at the same time I will feel like I got my $$$ worth. They "may" not be the best, or the most experienced, but they hopefully have more of both then I do.
miamitj ... you make a good point, and I'm also interested in hearing how it turns out.
My thing is, there are so many other options that are known quantities that I'm not motivated to "investigate" someone or some organization just to see if I want to consider hosting them.
I do like the 2-day format, though. I understand the advantages of 3 and 5 day classes, but for me, 2-day classes work better. For one thing, it's a lot easier for most people to attend on Saturday and Sunday than it is for them to get a day off from work for a third day. Selfishly, I also prefer 2-day classes because it's closer to my physical limits, especially when it's hot outside.
As an aside, a great way to pick an instructor to host is to attend something like the RangeMaster winter tactical conference in Memphis. There are always a lot of very informative seminars to attend, but in addition to learning there, you can "sample" various instructors and use that experience to help you decide whose classes are right for you and/or which instructors you'd like to host for their classes.
My thing is, there are so many other options that are known quantities that I'm not motivated to "investigate" someone or some organization just to see if I want to consider hosting them.
I feel the same way -- Way to many HIGH DRAG operators out there. Unfortunately the only way as a community we are going to find out where these guys stand is if someone takes the plunge.
Hell, I was trying to host a Pat Rogers class in March and no one wants to spend the $$$ on Pat. This is where the idea to host Bushido has come from.
Submariner
12-28-07, 07:29
Hell, I was trying to host a Pat Rogers class in March and no one wants to spend the $$$ on Pat.
There is frugal and then there is stupid cheap.
This is the latter.
Derek_Connor
12-28-07, 09:52
I have asked him on TOS to see if he would be willing to do a precision rifle class geared towards the mix of RECCE/SPR/.308 bolt guns for an intermediate range of 650...
It wasnt on his site, then the next day he added it.
Id like to know more also......if I can gain enough interest in NE florida for a precision rifle class for 650 yards max....we could get something going...
Rhino
I'm curious ... is the purpose of your warning to suggest that someone without actual combat experience has nothing to offer, or that the consumer should just be aware of their perpsective and act accrodingly as an educated consumer?
I don't think he's saying that at all..I don't think anyone would disagree that there are plenty of instructors that have not fired a shot in anger,who can still impart some knowledge that can be useful. You just need to know what your getting..
miamitj
Hell, I was trying to host a Pat Rogers class in March and no one wants to spend the $$$ on Pat. This is where the idea to host Bushido has come from.
That is just goofy.. on so many levels.. "I want to receive training on how to fight with a carbine.. but I don't want to spend a lot of money... flawed logic by your club members..
I read a blurp that I think is a key tenet to remember.. especially for all the guys who get wrapped around the axle when they think the Training is to "Military" for them and are looking for more of a "kindler and gentler" civilian flavored training experience.
Original quote from Frogman
I can't help but feel that there is some concerted effort to inform the average Joe that he needs "civilian oriented training". That seems ridiculus. QAR is making very good points. Once the decision making process to use lethal force has been made it's all about the ability to end the violence with precise application of your own violence.
Now I'm not saying you need to be able to Fast rope out of a Black-Hawk within a team setting in-order to get the best training experience...And my own training experience is heavily flavored with a Mil background...but when it comes to training.. I want the best I can get.. not the cheapest. and Mindset is mindset... any dummy with an AR can learn to put all the bullets in a fist size target at 5M.s.
Just some food for thought..
Sidewinder6
12-28-07, 11:31
[QUOTE=Dano5326;108865]
- The best *technical shooters are civilian guys who do it 24/7... However, I had a guy who was a world ranked champ completely unable to function in the 360 threat orb, and mass of bodies moving about in actual conflict. Standby for the timer & he'll make you look retarded......
I will continue to take technical instruction from a variety of kick ass shooters, guys that can get rds on target stupid fast, which has little to do with combat.
QUOTE]
Your entire perspective is well put.
I believe I know of whom you speak. :cool:
There is frugal and then there is stupid cheap.
This of course pre-supposes that the only (or primary) reason someone chooses to not spend money on a specific vendor of services is the cost. That may not be the case, as some prefer to patronize other vendors for valid and completely different reasons.
I think most of the guys that told me they could not take the class at this time because of $$$ were not saying so as much because of the cost as much as the timing. It IS right after X-Mas and when you add the costs of the class/ammo it nears a grand. I know if it was not because I would of been the host I would not be able to afford it at this time. The $300 class is more attractive to many because of the timing. At least here in Miami the economy is beating up many, including myself. Its also very attractive because I'm limiting it to 10 students that I have personally trained with on various instructors at various times.
- The best *technical shooters are civilian guys who do it 24/7... However, I had a guy who was a world ranked champ completely unable to function in the 360 threat orb, and mass of bodies moving about in actual conflict. Standby for the timer & he'll make you look retarded......
From Blazing Saddles: How twue! I asked a a buddy once who does scary things for a living if he'd ever shot IDPA or IPSC and he replied that he tried it once but was embarrassed by his score it was so poor. He went on to say that he would have been the only one to absolutely prevail in the scenarios presented if the targets were shooting back. As noted above, there's a world of difference between shooting and fighting.
There is something to learn from all, even if what you learn is something you have never seen and once seen, you know it should NOT be done. I have trained with internationally rank competitive shooters (several live in my area, like TGO). I have been there when elements of Delta and other SOF types hired him to give range instruction.
My LEO tactical unit has been visited numerous times by 10th group elements prior to deployment to "bone up" on urban CQB work with us. Our shoothouse has numerous cameras in it and I have hours of Delta working guys through it too.
Some will ask, why would SOF units come to PDs for CQB work? As their mission changes so do their ROEs. I am not stating that SWAT is better than SOF units in a run and gun battle, but the situations are entirely different. In LE there are no acceptable losses and no shot fired is the most successful raid/mission. Speed, surprise, shock etc is key to success.
In my world, tactics avert the likely of having to fire which is the goal. We have run drills that some SOF types could keep up with nor qualify on. But their world is different. Now Delta were "machines" in regards to accuracy but not super fast.
I hear much about non military and non LE folks talking all these schools. That is fine with me but one needs to think about what his needs are. If it is entertainment, then fine. But Joe citizen will not be out with 5 friends, attacked by a hoard of armed bad guys and need to fire and manuver through a town of hostiles also willing to get into fight.
In the early years of anti terrorism units in the military, they got a lot of their tactics and skills from SWAT for working in environments where everyone was not a threat and was not to be killed.
Some us LEOs went through a USMC CQB course during the JTF6 days. I learned some good things, but much of what they taught and expected of us was unacceptable in our world. Both in terms of casualties to our team and citizens as well as the checks and balances of the Constitution and the legal liability issues we face.
I guess what I am saying is that you should take all you can get but spend time afterward sorting it out and recreating a "package" that will work for you in your world.
I was kind of wondering the same thing, since I personally think that actual combat experience gets WAY overplayed in some training circles.
My question would be how do we know what works if not based upon experience? I'm not saying that every instructor out there needs to have shot someone between the eyes to be a valid and competent instructor. However, it does have to start from somewhere, and the application of valid tactics almost certainly requires experience from somewhere.
John_Wayne777
12-29-07, 00:07
I'm curious ... is the purpose of your warning to suggest that someone without actual combat experience has nothing to offer, or that the consumer should just be aware of their perpsective and act accrodingly as an educated consumer?
I believe it is an educated consumer thing....
For instance: Jerry Barnhardt can teach you a LOT about running a handgun in the most efficient way possible.
That doesn't mean that one would be well served by addressing real world threats the same way he would take down a stage at an IPSC match.
That's not a knock on Barnhardt, but an attempt at illustrating the point. Barnhardt will tell you the exact same thing. He can make you better at running a handgun even if you are a genuine snake-eating super warrior. He's not going to get out of his lane, however, and tell you that you need to square up in the door of a room that is possibly full of hostiles like he does when he is running through an IPSC stage.
As I heard Larry Vickers say on more than one occasion (as well as other good instructors): "There's a lot of stuff that seems great on a square range but doesn't work in the real world."
The guys who have spent time in the real world are good at pointing those things out.
Jay Cunningham
12-29-07, 00:13
As I heard Larry Vickers say on more than one occasion
My time and money are precious resources to me - hence, LAV gets some of it.
:cool:
John_Wayne777
12-29-07, 00:17
My time and money are precious resources to me - hence, LAV gets some of it.
:cool:
Same here.
There are a lot of known good instructors out there who teach stuff that is practical and real world tested....And they're not going to get you killed teaching any of it.
I'm inclined to spend my training money with those instructors. I don't want to disparage up and coming instructors who are good, but there are so many hucksters and idiots out there that I'd rather not chance it.
This topic is ranging well off the subject of whether or not anyone knows anything about Bushido Tactical, however....
While I understand that everyone is all hot to be trained by the "been there done that" crowd, it does seem that the training world is populated by instructors from both extremes that have no business wearing the red hat. Lately there seems to be a huge influx of guys that think that just because they have combat experience that they're qualified to instruct, and there's a contingent of folks that will run out to take classes from these guys for no reason other than that.
I look at instructors like Randy Cain and Bill Jeans, and I bet that there are quite a few that would not take their classes simply because they don't have "combat experience". Those people really would be missing out on some of the best instruction available, which is fine really because it means more space in their classes for me.
On the subject at hand...
If Miamitj gets Bushido to come down to our area I will likely go ahead and take the class. There's really no added expense to me other than the $300 since it would be local and over a weekend, and I'm not impressionable enough to take everything the guy says as gospel. If absolutely nothing else it will be two days and 1k rounds of sight picture, take up the slack, get a surprise break, ease to reset, realign the sights....
Its also very attractive because I'm limiting it to 10 students that I have personally trained with on various instructors at various times.
That's what I did my first time as a host. It was private, by invitation only. In 2008, I'll be repeating that, but also adding at least one open enrollment class.
Private classes eliminate some of the logistical issues, as well as allowing you some measure of control over the attitude and aptitude of the students.
On the subject at hand...
If Miamitj gets Bushido to come down to our area I will likely go ahead and take the class. There's really no added expense to me other than the $300 since it would be local and over a weekend, and I'm not impressionable enough to take everything the guy says as gospel. If absolutely nothing else it will be two days and 1k rounds of sight picture, take up the slack, get a surprise break, ease to reset, realign the sights....
Good attitude. I'm looking forward to your respective reports as educated consumers. I have some idea of your perspective, so what you have to say about the class will tell me quite a bit.
NCPatrolAR
12-29-07, 16:48
I look at instructors like Randy Cain and Bill Jeans, and I bet that there are quite a few that would not take their classes simply because they don't have "combat experience".
I do believe Bill was Vietnam wasnt he? Also, Randy has been in several officer-involved shootings in the past unless I'm mistaken.
On the subject on Bill; he is one of the best instructors I've had the oppertunity to train with. (Hijack over)
I do believe Bill was Vietnam wasnt he? Also, Randy has been in several officer-involved shootings in the past unless I'm mistaken.
On the subject on Bill; he is one of the best instructors I've had the oppertunity to train with. (Hijack over)
What I mean is that they don't publicize it if they were. I've taken a class from Bill, and at least 3 or 4 from Randy (with another coming up in two weeks), and I don't recall either one ever telling a personal war story, and neither one of them has any mention of "combat experience" posted on their website bios.
Submariner
12-29-07, 17:57
This of course pre-supposes that the only (or primary) reason someone chooses to not spend money on a specific vendor of services is the cost. That may not be the case, as some prefer to patronize other vendors for valid and completely different reasons.
Do you disagree that the context was unwillingness to spend money?
Hell, I was trying to host a Pat Rogers class in March and no one wants to spend the $$$ on Pat. This is where the idea to host Bushido has come from.
Wow, this thread is a blast from the past. I took some classes for Wade two years ago. I would say that Wade is a solid instructor. There was nothing that was presented in his classes that I did not encounter in any of the other classes that I have had, including the one by Pat Rogers.
I will admit that I am not an expert by any means but I didn't encounter anything that seemed undo.
Wow, this thread is a blast from the past. I took some classes for Wade two years ago. I would say that Wade is a solid instructor. There was nothing that was presented in his classes that I did not encounter in any of the other classes that I have had, including the one by Pat Rogers.
I will admit that I am not an expert by any means but I didn't encounter anything that seemed undo.
Well, that's the thing. When we don't know who they are, it's tough to know what you've just told us. The fact that you have a first name puts you ahead of the curve.
I guess I would have to look at it in different ways (depending on what I was after). If I want to be a faster shooter, then I would seek out someone that specializes in that. If I want to know what works best in a combat environment (this could be gear/weapon selection, shooting techniques, etc) I will go to someone that has been there and done that.
To me personally, I could care less about speed, as accuracy is final. Having gone through many of the top shooting schools and or instructors. I have found few (if any) that match Vickers & Hackathorn's background, ability to instruct and shoot. I am sure that there are some out there, but have not located them yet.
The issue I have is when I start to look at other instructors, I have to compare their background to this one: http://www.vickerstactical.com/about.htm If it doesn't stack up against it, then I feel that I am not going to get as much out of it (YMMV).
C4
PatriotArms
01-01-08, 01:12
Wade Rorich is the instructors name. He is from South Africa, he came to the US around 2000 to work for Surefire. His resume and a few other details about him can be found with a short Google search as mention earlier. I'm currently working on an open enrollment for his Defensive Carbine course that I'm hosting in Northeast Florida. If anyone has any specific questions for him, he is easily reached at the number or email address posted on his website.
I hear so much about LAV and PR but has anyone here gone to a CSAT course with Paul Howe? Obviously a been there done that guy, how are his courses?
I hear so much about LAV and PR but has anyone here gone to a CSAT course with Paul Howe? Obviously a been there done that guy, how are his courses?
I found some reviews here:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=117317
Here is his sight for those that had never heard of him :
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/
I hear so much about LAV and PR but has anyone here gone to a CSAT course with Paul Howe? Obviously a been there done that guy, how are his courses?
I took his Advance Hostage Rescue class a few months ago and it was excellent.
Awesome instructor, not sure what else to add :D
Let me know if there is something specific you want to know...
One of the other students had taken two other courses with him before and planned on taking more in the future.
I'll be training with him again if I can get my schedule worked out.
I have opened the class I was hosting to the public. Here is my post on it:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=116097#post116097
I signed up for the March 1-2 St Augustine carbine class.
Wade has been very helpful even pre-class. He is happy to take the time to make your experience great.
Absolutely incredible class. I will be writing a detailed review this week, but I just wanted to make a couple quick comments.
Please, don't hesitate to sign up for this class. You will NOT be disappointed.
1)If you're a badass that knows everything, you will be humbled!
2)If you're an advanced shooter, will polish up on the basics and certainly learn some new tricks.
3)If you're a beginner, you will gain a knowledge base that will aid in your future advancement. You will gain the confidence necessary to want to learn more. This confidence will be based on knowing that you can utilize your rifle proficiently.
My uncle who attended the class this weekend said the class changed his thinking completely. He actually commented to me that he would never be the same.
Lastly: $300 is a joke compared to what you bring home from this class! This is like someone selling a new Colt 6920 online for $300. I will be attending the Pistol class in May, as well as whatever else I can fit into my schedule this year.
Full review will be coming soon.
Glad to hear it 'tac. Can you give us an idea of your training background (i.e. what other courses you've taken) so that we can have a basis for your take on th class?
You're already making me wish I was signed up for the class down here.
Glad to hear it 'tac. Can you give us an idea of your training background (i.e. what other courses you've taken) so that we can have a basis for your take on th class?
You're already making me wish I was signed up for the class down here.
rob_s: First off, thanks to reading your posts here and on other forums, I am a Colt man now. My Stags and Bushys are gone and Colts fill my cabinet. Thanks man! :D
My background is not too impressive. I'm no badass, but I'm not a keyboard commando fatbody either. I have a few classes under my belt, and I know my way around firearms. I know good instruction and love to learn from people passionate about what they do.
I have taken the Defensive Pistol and the Tactical Night Shooting courses at AWT in California by Walt Marshal. http://www.awt-co.com/
Most of my personal training is from a man in California. I don't want to name him here.
His qualifications:
20yr Bay Area LEO
FBI agent
US Marshal
SF Bay Area Police Academy firearms instructor
SWAT instructor in SF Bay Area
Armorer for local PD
Here are a few people's comments from this weekend.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=10&t=300262&page=1
I hope you didn't take offense at my comment, I was just curious/hoping you had taken classes with some of the more well-known instructors like Pat Rogers or Larry Vickers so that you could give a frame of reference to some of the rest of us that have trained with those guys.
Sounds like there's one guy in your link that couldn't complete day two because he was too worn our from day one?
I hope you didn't take offense at my comment, I was just curious/hoping you had taken classes with some of the more well-known instructors like Pat Rogers or Larry Vickers so that you could give a frame of reference to some of the rest of us that have trained with those guys.
Sounds like there's one guy in your link that couldn't complete day two because he was too worn our from day one?
No offense was taken at all. My response was in good heart. :D I've read quite a few of your posts and they all seem to be very helpful to the forum community.
Me thinks he didn't drink enough water for high activity in the Florida sun. There was plenty of water/Gatoraid on hand and we were all encouraged to stay hydrated. Most folks don't realize how much fluid is needed! I downed over a gallon of water the first day, and about 2/3 gallon the second.
You should attend the pistol class in May. It's only $295 so it can't hurt to check it out. I'd love to meet some (semi)local m4carbine members in person as well. I can tell you that Wade Rorich is a true professional that is passionate about teaching good technique.
Unfortunately my training schedule is pretty well full up due to some family obligations. I'm attending an SDI handgun in Lakeland at the end of this month, and an Awerbuck carbine in May at the same facility. I wanted to take both the Bushido and SDI carbine classes down here at Henry's this month but I have too much on my plate.
Looking forward to your full review.
Unfortunately my training schedule is pretty well full up due to some family obligations. I'm attending an SDI handgun in Lakeland at the end of this month, and an Awerbuck carbine in May at the same facility. I wanted to take both the Bushido and SDI carbine classes down here at Henry's this month but I have too much on my plate.
Looking forward to your full review.
Here's another attendee's full review in the meantime. ;) Mine probably won't approach his writing ability. ha
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=19&t=226028&page=1
Full review number two from this weekend.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=10&t=300624
PatriotArms
03-05-08, 20:40
Don't fret... We'll have Bushido Tactical back to NE FLorida real soon.
We've already got the Defensive Pistol course lined up that SuperTac and many others will be attending in May.
There has been request for a second showing of the Defensive Carbine course that we're working on dates for right now.
Stay tuned for more to come...
I was cruising HK forums and found a random +1 from a local Marine.
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74061
haha I'm starting to sound like an advertiser, but I'm just really excited about these classes!:D
Don't fret... We'll have Bushido Tactical back to NE FLorida real soon.
We've already got the Defensive Pistol course lined up that SuperTac and many others will be attending in May.
There has been request for a second showing of the Defensive Carbine course that we're working on dates for right now.
Stay tuned for more to come...
I may fly up to take your class if I cant find a range in Miami to host them.
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