View Full Version : Never-field pre-ban Bushmaster complete rifle: dilemma
lolopasstrail
03-04-12, 09:50
Back in the dark days of 94 I phoned every shop in Northern Ohio shopping for an AR15 type rifle. All sold out. Finally, I found one left, at one store and on a whim I drove out. The owner didn't want to sell it. He figured he would never be able to get a similar item again. After a lot of back-and-forth, we struck a deal, me paying well over twice the then-current price for the last ever such item in stock.
My justification was that I would put it up for my infant son, since he would unlikely be able to get one when he was older. I charged it to my credit card, and needless to say once I confessed the transaction to my wife, and the amount, I was in big trouble.
Fast forward to today. The complete Bushmaster xm15-f2s, serial number L04xxxx .223/5.56 is still sitting in its original box, stored in a cool, dry place. The condition is exactly the same as when I bought it. This is a 16 in, collapsible stock, "CAR15" type rifle with handle. I bought it new, am the original owner, and it has never ever been fired... the privilege of first firing was to be my son's.
He's finally interested in it, and I will gladly turn it over, but here is my dilemma, guys. Pre-ban doesn't have the allure in my state, but I understand in some states a complete rifle might be desirable. My son doesn't care. I don't know the value of this rifle, but if valuable to some states can justify it, we'd consider selling it, simply buy a new rifle (probably for less than what I paid for this in 94), and using the difference toward his tuition.
Thoughts/suggestions?
SpankMonkey
03-04-12, 09:59
First welcome to M4C.
Second. Sell it on Gunbroker as a unfired preban rifle. You should be able to recoup most of your cost. Then purchase a new rifle from one of the quality dealers from the forum for your son. There have been lots of improvements since 1994.
To give you an idea what it is worth in communist states I'm selling a PWA pre-ban lower with nothing but the trigger assembly on gunbroker and it is up to $680 with 3 days left.
PA PATRIOT
03-04-12, 10:11
You purchased the Bushy as a gift to your son and while he may not care about the rifles history you on the other hand have gone Thur extreme measures to make sure this gift would be available when you son was of age to receive it.
It will mean more to him history wise as he gets older and realizes your sacrifices, I would hold on to it if even for sentimental reasons.
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-04-12, 10:23
To ask these prices based on I can have it and you cant realy makes me upset. I have bought a lot of pre ban lowers for guys here in NY but I have never paid over 350 for a complete lower.
It makes me think of how upset everyone else got when prices went up before the last election. And then you turn around and do it to someone else thats not right. I can see a max or 200$ over the actual cost of the weapon but not 680$ for a part you can buy for 55$ thats wrong.
I know free market and guys will pay but dont you feel bad maybe Im just jaded because I live in NY. Were we cant have it unless its pre 94. Unless your a cop and then you can brake the law cause no one will punish you.
Quiet-Matt
03-04-12, 10:25
You bought it when looking for a AR15 type rifle, and paid crazy money for it. It doesn't sound like too much thought went into it other than "wow, I found one". Sell it to someone in acommunist state and use the winnings to buy something better. Do your research on this site, ues the orange search button, read the stickys, and ask questions. You will find that you have much better options now than you did back in 94. You can still give your son his AR, just give him a good one.
No idea of the market for a pre-ban AR, but I'm pretty sure an unfired 20-year-old Bushmaster is worth more due to its pre-ban nature than it is currently as a reliable shooter. Your son won't know or care, and for all you know, the new rifle of higher quality that you buy now to replace it may end up being a "pre-ban AR" at some point in the future.
Despite the common wisdom around here about the quality of Bushmasters, the fact remains that it's a big seller around the country and the majority of AR buyers aren't going to know or care about the reputation it has on M4C.
Prior to the ban in 1994, Bushmaster was one of the "big three" or the "ABC's or AR's". Colt and Armalite were the other two. Like others have mentioned, I'd sell the bushy for as much as you can get for it (Free market rocks!!). Maybe this time you and your son can look together and make it more of a project than a gift.
To ask these prices based on I can have it and you cant realy makes me upset. I have bought a lot of pre ban lowers for guys here in NY but I have never paid over 350 for a complete lower.
It makes me think of how upset everyone else got when prices went up before the last election. And then you turn around and do it to someone else thats not right. I can see a max or 200$ over the actual cost of the weapon but not 680$ for a part you can buy for 55$ thats wrong.
I know free market and guys will pay but dont you feel bad maybe Im just jaded because I live in NY. Were we cant have it unless its pre 94. Unless your a cop and then you can brake the law cause no one will punish you.
You can vote and become politically active to change your state or move; until then people that live in states like yours will enter into bidding wars over nice pre-ban items. I don't feel bad for you, once I retire I will never live in a state that restricts my 2nd Amendment rights.
To ask these prices based on I can have it and you cant realy makes me upset. I have bought a lot of pre ban lowers for guys here in NY but I have never paid over 350 for a complete lower.
It makes me think of how upset everyone else got when prices went up before the last election. And then you turn around and do it to someone else thats not right. I can see a max or 200$ over the actual cost of the weapon but not 680$ for a part you can buy for 55$ thats wrong.
I know free market and guys will pay but dont you feel bad maybe Im just jaded because I live in NY. Were we cant have it unless its pre 94. Unless your a cop and then you can brake the law cause no one will punish you.
I agree and disagree w/ your sentiment on this.
On the one hand, you do not want to be a carpet-bagging ass-hat and gouge folks living in ban-states, taking advantage of their situation....
...on the other hand, there are market forces that come into play. What's to prevent an individual in a ban-state from taking advantage of your good natured intentions? They give you the song and dance about being in a ban state and so forth. They guilt you into selling that item at a reasonable cost and then they turn right around sell it for a monster profit.
That is the dilemma.
You don't know what is happening. Therefore, my recommendation is that if you choose to sell, sell it at market price (or if you feel like being a good guy, somewhere between what it would go for in a non-ban state and what you could actually get for it).
For example, I had a certified pre-ban lower (complete and in good condition with a letter from Bushmaster) for sale to those in ban states. I could have gotten top dollar for it. Instead, I simply asked for a 2 for 1 deal: two complete lowers in exchange for my pre-ban. It was win-win. The buyer paid less than the going rate and I got two brand new lowers.
If the buyer get's 'buyer's remorse,' they will always be able to get their money back (and then some) because pre-ban lowers/rifles are like a pre-1986 machine guns. They are not making anymore of them, and in ban states, they will always command a premium price.
Canonshooter
03-04-12, 11:07
There is so much more here than just the rifle;
It's the story of a dad buying a brand new firearm - at a time when it was difficult to do so - and stashing it away until his son is old enough to enjoy it.
It's a piece of American history, a reminder of how government attempted (and continues to attempt) to deprive Americans of their constitutional rights.
Sure, the rifle itself may not be up to today's high level of quality or reliability, but you can always buy a "top tier" rifle if your son's interest grows.
I wouldn't dream of selling it.
Your rifle is worth about $1,200 in NY, CT, and Mass. That's the price I see complete pre ban rifle s going for unless you get into a bidding war. With the rest of the country not needing pre ban status on an AR-15 it's a very limited market.
It could also be "a story of a man who rushed to buy a rifle for his son, 20 years later sold it and was able to afford a much better quality one."
Turning copper to gold
As a resident of NY I think you should pass on the preban lower to someone who it really means something to. Your entitled to up the price but dont go for blood.
There is so much more here than just the rifle;
It's the story of a dad buying a brand new firearm - at a time when it was difficult to do so - and stashing it away until his son is old enough to enjoy it.
It's a piece of American history, a reminder of how government attempted (and continues to attempt) to deprive Americans of their constitutional rights.
Sure, the rifle itself may not be up to today's high level of quality or reliability, but you can always buy a "top tier" rifle if your son's interest grows.
I wouldn't dream of selling it.
Level of sentimentality and how it plays is going to vary. If it were a top quality firearm, like the old Belgian Brownings, or Colt 1911's etc etc, I could see how that might play a role. Some my buddy's most prized possessions are the Belgian Auto 5 and SA-22, and the full range collection of Winchester Model 12's he inherited from his father when he died. But this is a 20 year old Bushmaster. I just don't see it, but that's me. It's a question the OP will have to answer for himself, I guess.
lolopasstrail
03-04-12, 11:37
Guys, I'm the original poster, and you've given me a lot to ponder. I appreciate your feedback
When it comes to history I think it needs to be kept in perspective. This isn't a gun that grandpa would take out and show and tell his old stories about it (be it hunting, war, or what have you) that can no be replaced because no other gun, even perfectly identical in terms of make or model has said history. It would be an heirloom if the reason for the dire purchase came true and there is no way to replace it save at even more cost for another pre ban (this of course keeping in mind all states having a ban since 94, it would cost to get one even more than it is now) but it is replaceable and can "turn copper into gold" as another has said or be kept as a lower quality of "well my heart was in the right place, but lets not roll with the smarter decision". So its like option A: keep the BM and tell the story on how you bought it just in case but passed up the opportunity to sell it later for a better gun, profit, or both or option B: Sell it and have the new gun and tell how you bought a different gun, sold it, and bought this one with proceeds (and maybe even had ammo money left over so the first range trip was free?). You are still alive and in the story and so far it is going good, now if you decide to keep it and pass it on to him and he knows your decision to not sell and buy a different one then something tragic would happen to you and your gone then he sells it, then he needs whacked on the head with a newspaper. Not to mention you can also bring him in on the purchasing process and teach him a thing or two, have those moments together, make him feel more a part of the rifle and not some forethought, etc.
There is however a logical reason to keep. That being if he moves to a ban state down the road. Not much sense on selling it (likely at a small loss?) buying something better then having to sell it (small loss again most likely) then buying the first damn thing again for is likely to be more then the first time it was sold.
I think you should replace the barrel and bcg(with quality components)or sell the whole rifle and get a quality one.
Yeah how about these guys who chastise spikes tactical for price gouging before the election and some if them think it's perfectly alright to rape someone in a ban state for $400-$800, maybe $1000 on a preban lower.
Here in Ct. just the pre ban lowers have been listed for as much as $850 :eek: I'd sell the whole enchalada and get a really nice setup from one of the top tier companies. You and your son will always have the story to tell and a much better rifle to use. JMHO.
Look, this AR was bought to shoot it correct?? If you are not going to shoot it, sell it. It has NO collector value whatsoever, even if it is pre-ban. If you want to buy a higher quality piece, then sell the AR that you have and drive on. If you sell it for the right price, you can get your son a Colt 6920 from Grant at G and R Tactical and be confident in your purchase.
"Unless your a cop and then you can brake the law cause no one will punish you".
As a Cop and a fellow New Yorker, I take offense to that... because most of us don't break the law. I can also tell you when Cops get caught breaking the law in this County they get punished twice as hard(rightfully so)! Police Officers in possession of Assault Weapons in NY are not in violation of the law. They are exempt(PL 265.20).
As a cop you know its pointless to try to clarify anything on a firearm board. There is a group of people who don't want to hear anything, they just want to live in their own world with Red Dawn and Zombies. They are typically the guys who never raised their hand and took an oath.
To the OP, sorry your thread is now political. Sell it and do whatever you want. To most people its nothing more than an old AR15 that you paid too much for. I hope you are able to get at least as much as you paid.
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-04-12, 15:37
You can vote and become politically active to change your state or move; until then people that live in states like yours will enter into bidding wars over nice pre-ban items. I don't feel bad for you, once I retire I will never live in a state that restricts my 2nd Amendment rights.
Ha if that worked I would not have made my comments our politcs are decided by NYC
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-04-12, 15:38
I agree and disagree w/ your sentiment on this.
On the one hand, you do not want to be a carpet-bagging ass-hat and gouge folks living in ban-states, taking advantage of their situation....
...on the other hand, there are market forces that come into play. What's to prevent an individual in a ban-state from taking advantage of your good natured intentions? They give you the song and dance about being in a ban state and so forth. They guilt you into selling that item at a reasonable cost and then they turn right around sell it for a monster profit.
That is the dilemma.
You don't know what is happening. Therefore, my recommendation is that if you choose to sell, sell it at market price (or if you feel like being a good guy, somewhere between what it would go for in a non-ban state and what you could actually get for it).
For example, I had a certified pre-ban lower (complete and in good condition with a letter from Bushmaster) for sale to those in ban states. I could have gotten top dollar for it. Instead, I simply asked for a 2 for 1 deal: two complete lowers in exchange for my pre-ban. It was win-win. The buyer paid less than the going rate and I got two brand new lowers.
If the buyer get's 'buyer's remorse,' they will always be able to get their money back (and then some) because pre-ban lowers/rifles are like a pre-1986 machine guns. They are not making anymore of them, and in ban states, they will always command a premium price.
Thats a good point and one I had not considered
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-04-12, 15:46
deleted
Its caled a transaction. The seller wants the money more than the object. The buyer wants the object more than the money.
Thats why both people say, "Thankyou."
Just cause idiot political rules make force market value to be different for a person in NY than some one in TX is no reflection on either the seller of the buyer.
Frankly, there probablly is someone in NY that is happy to fork over the money for a pre-ban lower. If he's happy to buy it, and the seller is happy to sell it, what right do I have tell them otherwise.
buckshot1220
03-04-12, 16:04
I used to live in NY so my vote is to sell it to someone who can put it to good use. Then take the money and buy a quality, modern setup.
You can ask whatever you want for it and come down to the best offer, but your sweet spot for a relatively quick sale will be in the $1200 range for a non-Colt pre-ban.
Out of curiosity, what did you pay for it back in '94?
Bushmaster hasn't always been the trash it is now, but you can still do a whole lot better. Sell, and buy a BCM or another quality brand.
To the OP, sorry your thread is now political. . Don't be sorry get mad and fight it, this thread is political because politicians have limited our rights.
Ha if that worked I would not have made my comments our politcs are decided by NYC
I know, I'm sure it is almost impossible to fight the NYC voter block. Maybe NYC will succeed from the state some day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_New_York
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-04-12, 17:44
To the OP sorry about your thread my comment were not direct at you but at the guy selling his lower for 600 plus on gunbroker.
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-04-12, 17:46
delete...........
I know about LE exemption that was not realy what I ment. I know several LE officers who are in violation of NFA but everyone turns the other cheek because they are LE. Sorry you were offended but not everyone who serves does the right thing.
Under the same circumstances, I would put the rifle up for auction at a fair starting price and write the ad to play up on it's unfired, preban status complete with original box and original paperwork! (Yes, use italics & exclamation point.) Do not mention in the ad that it was for your son or try to explain that you're selling it for something better. Just let what the buyers want do the work for you.
I would then get my son a Colt. It will become part of the story. How dad loved his son so much, that he searched high and low for an AR and kept it carefully stored so that one day his son could enjoy an AR. But times have changed and dad had a chance to pass on a better legacy to his son and make AR ownership possible for someone stuck behind enemy lines.
The new rifle will be part of the bond between father and son. Just be sure the two of you go out & shoot that new rifle
Living in a ban state sucks and MA just seems to get worse. Anything pre-ban commands a premium here and people will pay for it in fear that it will be lost forever. If you decide to sell it search some local forum classifieds in ban states, call a few shops and list it for what it's worth as a pre-ban. Better yet auction it with a reserve and the highest bidder wins. If I had the extra money I would purchase a pre-ban lower again but for the moment I can deal with the mods I am forced to have. I had a pre-ban Colt lower over 10yrs ago but was not into AR's or really aware of it's value. A friend offered me $650 for it and to this day he will tell you it was the best investment he made. If someone wants it they will pay. Good luck on whatever you choose to do.
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