View Full Version : Pistol at 200 yds
polydeuces
03-04-12, 12:26
During a current class one of the instructors demonstrated the concept of perfect trigger control (reset/prep) and effective
range of the pistol.
Although this is a pistol class - this concept apples to both handgun and rifle.
Shooter - OpSpec training, Jerry Jones - instructor.
Class - Handgun Fundamentals
Distance - 200 yds
Glock 17, standard barrel, trigger.
Winchester "white box" 115 gr fmj
polydeuces
03-04-12, 12:35
Here is a hi-res file.
There are several lessons one can learn from this.
Main one - to me - with proper training conventional "wisdom" quite often turns out to be wrong.
wow that makes ya think...
that hickok45 guy can ding steels at around 200 yards with his glocks as well.
glocks really are a lot more accurate than people give them credit for.
I know it can be done. I can't do it but I've seen at least two members of this forum (most of you could probably guess at least one) consistantly hit steal at 175 yards with a G17 shooting strong hand only!
That's probably where I realized that it's not the gun, it's the shooter.
Excellent work there sir.
(assuming the 3 circled holes are the hits at that distance) I only have one question, and I may be missing the obvious here but..... how on earth do you know that those were the 3 shots that hit at that distance?
I mean if you were driving home the point of trigger control & using that distance, why wouldn't you use a clean target? Or, are all 36 hits from that range?
Failure2Stop
03-04-12, 16:42
(assuming the 3 circled holes are the hits at that distance) I only have one question, and I may be missing the obvious here but..... how on earth do you know that those were the 3 shots that hit at that distance?
I mean if you were driving home the point of trigger control & using that distance, why wouldn't you use a clean target? Or, are all 36 hits from that range?
I'm not going to say anything about the method, but I will say this:
I know Gene, he is an honorable and honest man, and if he was willing to sign his name as a witness, then I fully believe that he believes it to be true.
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@stangman I assumed those were shot first. The three shots. Then the target was probably moved closer for the remainder of shooting?
It is now clear that I flat out suck. Fml.
This thread makes me feel like a chump. But I also now find myself being overcome with an extreme desire and motivation to go practice my dry firing......... See y'all later! :D
A friend down in Oklahoma runs the firearms program for the state academy. He routinely shoots targets out to he 200 with his Glock 33 to make his point that "pistol shooting is simple, you just line up the sights and control the trigger".
He sent me a video awhile back where he pulled this stunt, standing off-hand, and got a first round hit on steel, even in a heavy cross wind.
Of course, simple does not always mean easy.
To get new guys over the idea that 25 yards is "far" we do a walk back drill using steel targets. Almost everybody can get hits out to the 125 or 150 with a G17.
Impressive, particularly with Winchester White box!
Nice.
So your saying the 7 yard mag dump of getting most of the bullets on the four foot target isn't really the mechanical accuracy of the gun?! Darn.;)
polydeuces
03-05-12, 08:07
(assuming the 3 circled holes are the hits at that distance) I only have one question, and I may be missing the obvious here but..... how on earth do you know that those were the 3 shots that hit at that distance?
I mean if you were driving home the point of trigger control & using that distance, why wouldn't you use a clean target? Or, are all 36 hits from that range?
The circled holes are the mentioned 9mm rounds. Shot from supported position - prone on dirt.
All others - but one - are .308 shot rapid fire from 200 yds. from a SCAR heavy.
Regarding the obvious - you are correct in missing it:
There's round count.
Then:
Most of those experienced shooting 308 and 9mm are able to distinguish them from each other from marks left on cardboard.
Hence the higher res image.
However, I will gladly submit a 16-bit 120Mb tiff image file (native res) for peer review verifying the witnessed claim. (see bottom right)
FWIW - we had other targets w only 9 mm rounds - from distances
7-200 yds, but picked this one because of obvious (to us...) visual difference between calibers.
Can you pick the 5.56 round?
Now I am VERY tempted to try a 5" match grade barrel on 3-400 yards. Stay tuned. ;)
Not 200, but I have shot steel at 100yds. with an HK USP Tac .45 with WWB during a TigerSwan class. There were students with G17's making hits as well.
Not 200, but I have shot steel at 100yds. with an HK USP Tac .45 with WWB during a TigerSwan class. There were students with G17's making hits as well.
That reminds me, at ITTS Pistol II I hit steel at 115 yards first shot with my Sig P220ST. It's possible.
I also believe those hits can be made from a static position, on a falt range, with nothing more stressing than a crow calling in the distance. I've seen it, and I've hit steel 1/3 IPSC targets at 150yds myself.
There are also videos of some dude shooting big dot sights under his legs and backwards and making pistol hits to 150yds or whatever.
The being said, it seems the prevailing wisdom is that if a shooter is engaging you with effective fire from 200yds, and all you have is a pistol, it would be wise to disengage, if possible, and move farther back.
Commonly, many instructors have said you are generally going to be hitting two things at 100yds++ with a pistol, under combat stress, 1) Jack. and 2) Shit. I'll take them at their word.
mallowpufft
03-05-12, 10:48
And here I felt good about getting hits on a 5" square target at 75 yards with my buddies G19. Time to go the range again. :p
Microalign
03-05-12, 10:55
I also believe those hits can be made from a static position, on a falt range, with nothing more stressing than a crow calling in the distance. I've seen it, and I've hit steel 1/3 IPSC targets at 150yds myself.
There are also videos of some dude shooting big dot sights under his legs and backwards and making pistol hits to 150yds or whatever.
The being said, it seems the prevailing wisdom is that if a shooter is engaging you with effective fire from 200yds, and all you have is a pistol, it would be wise to disengage, if possible, and move farther back.
Commonly, many instructors have said you are generally going to be hitting two things at 100yds++ with a pistol, under combat stress, 1) Jack. and 2) Shit. I'll take them at their word.
Hit the nail on the head. Engaging dynamic threats at 200rds with a MP5 is hard enough let alone with a pistol. Amazing feats of shooting can be performed on static ranges, which are highly improbably when you turn it into a combat situation.
It is good training to shoot at longer ranges though for getting better trigger control and maintaining constant sight picture.
Years ago I would have found it hard to believe someone could make pistol hits at 200 yards like that. Then about 6 months ago, I shot at a buddy's range and, just for fun, we decided to try and hit a 20" steel circle at 180 yards. I thought there was no way in hell we would hit it, but I ended up hitting it 5 out of 12 shots with my P229 .40 from a standing position. I was pretty shocked :laugh:
Wow, that is amazing, I'm barely accurate at 10 yards with my Glock. I need to get out and practice more.
How in the world do you sight that though? How high above the target would you have to be sighting with fixed open sites of a Glock to get the bullet on target?
DanjojoUSMC
03-05-12, 11:37
it's about a 4 foot drop in trajectory
RogerinTPA
03-05-12, 11:45
100 yards was my max shooting distance during a Vtac 1.5 Pistol course using the M&P9. I hit steel every 3-4 shots, but it was an eye opener and real confidence builder. After that drill, 50 and in was pretty easy from various shooting positions. I try to shoot to the 25 and 50 yard line every range outing, but mostly 25 and in. If I had to make a 150-200 yard shot, I'd break out the carbine.
Commonly, many instructors have said you are generally going to be hitting two things at 100yds++ with a pistol, under combat stress, 1) Jack. and 2) Shit. I'll take them at their word.
While I'd concur with this assessment, I think somebody who has a solid enough command of the fundamentals to make hits at these distances is more likely to make necessary hits at say, 50m, under more stress, or at least enough to disengage. Within the expectation of a handgun as a reactionary weapon, that's still more than adequate.
While I'd concur with this assessment, I think somebody who has a solid enough command of the fundamentals to make hits at these distances is more likely to make necessary hits at say, 50m, under more stress, or at least enough to disengage. Within the expectation of a handgun as a reactionary weapon, that's still more than adequate.
I'm not sure I understand, as you moved the distance in to 50m, whereas I am speaking of dealing with pistols at distances > 100yds++.
Maybe I've missed a presumption somewhere, or am lunch time comatose.
polydeuces
03-05-12, 14:01
Exactly.
That is the point I am trying to make: command of fundamentals.
Mad trigger skills.
While I can not claim to possess them it is very apparent this is crucial to running pistol as well as carbine, or for that matter anything with a trigger.
Having super smooth triggers and all kinds of fancy tweaks done to it may enhance one's sense of accomplishment, I am experiencing it merely masks flaws and does little to help gaining that skill.
Running both Geissele and stock AR triggers, it is dawning to me there is so much more to be learned from running stock.
Once I get the "reset and prepping the trigger" discipline down, perhaps I can revert back to the crispy Geissele and thus getting most out of it.
Obviously I am speaking for myself here.
During a current class one of the instructors demonstrated the concept of perfect trigger control (reset/prep) and effective
range of the pistol.
Although this is a pistol class - this concept apples to both handgun and rifle.
Shooter - OpSpec training, Jerry Jones - instructor.
Class - Handgun Fundamentals
Distance - 200 yds
Glock 17, standard barrel, trigger.
Winchester "white box" 115 gr fmj
You guys ever see the vid of Bob Munden hitting a head sized balloon at 300 yards with a 1911? Munden is a freak. Also hit a balloon at 200 yards with a snub revolver. He's not human. :cool:
1:30 of this vid on the snub shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8HzCnymSugQ
Failure2Stop
03-05-12, 14:13
A lot of it is knowing where YOUR pistol hits at those distances and having a consistent point at which to aim.
Of course, refined trigger control and sight alignment is paramount for consistent success.
Getting the hits at 100yds. was from standing without the target shooting back. It simply let me know that it is possible; maybe not probable, if downrange. Still, it gave me a new perspective.
A lot of it is knowing where YOUR pistol hits at those distances and having a consistent point at which to aim.
Very good point. I was at the range with a friend once and he was consistently hitting a small piece of scrap steel in the berm 100+ yards away with a 3-4" 1911. I was shocked! He asked me if I wanted to try it, and I said sure, and missed with every single round from the magazine. Then he told me where to hold and I hit at about a 50% rate over two mags.
But, I don't think the point of this example has anything to do with shooting at 200 yards either. The Opspec guys appear to be all about their version of trigger control and how it relates to precision and so my guess is this was an attempt at selling their secret sauce, or more correctly, in demonstrating it.
"If you buy my workout tapes, you can be just as big and strong as me!"
polydeuces
03-05-12, 18:48
I believe given the wind-scenario, and fact that shooter had been on this range for no more than 2 days - right side, instructing mostly - one can safely rule out any kind of range-familiarity factor - actually makes it even more impressive.
Familiarity with equipment and having that mad trigger skill on the other hand is obvious, and that being a really good thing - something to strive for - should they be faulted for spreading that gospel?
should they be faulted for spreading that gospel?
Everyone has a right to market themselves. I would question the use of the word "gospel".
Heavy Metal
03-05-12, 19:09
I also believe those hits can be made from a static position, on a falt range, with nothing more stressing than a crow calling in the distance. I've seen it, and I've hit steel 1/3 IPSC targets at 150yds myself.
There are also videos of some dude shooting big dot sights under his legs and backwards and making pistol hits to 150yds or whatever.
The being said, it seems the prevailing wisdom is that if a shooter is engaging you with effective fire from 200yds, and all you have is a pistol, it would be wise to disengage, if possible, and move farther back.
Commonly, many instructors have said you are generally going to be hitting two things at 100yds++ with a pistol, under combat stress, 1) Jack. and 2) Shit. I'll take them at their word.
Bruce Campbell informed me Jack has done left town.
I agree, I would never deliberately engage a hostile target at that range when retreat was an option unless I was a part of an much bigger and well-armed group or I was in a position of such strategic advantage that I could shoot then rapidly and safely disengage or attempting to retreat would force me into a more dangerous position like out into a large open area where I would be at an even greater disadvantage.
polydeuces
03-05-12, 19:24
Everyone has a right to market themselves. I would question the use of the word "gospel".
DVD? Book? Cable TV show? ;)
For reference, I wasn't trying to call anyone out with what I said earlier. It was a genuine question addressing the cluttered target. I absolutely believe/know it can be done.
http://i515.photobucket.com/albums/t354/stangman2v/45group.jpg
I pulled this out of my *** one day at the range & will likely never do this again, being as though I consider it luck & not skill. I know if I hadn't had a witness to it, no one would have believed me. Plain Jane Kimber Stainless II - 3 shots - 3 hits - 108 yds, supported wrist from a bench.
The extreme stressing of the basic fundamentals is a key component of long range handgun shooting but it can also be accomplished with a one hole drill at close distance. However I think the true benefit of long distance pistol training is the defeating of the mental block aspect which shooters tend to have just because the distance is so far away. Also a shooter who is highly accomplished at longer ranges will look at short, or CQB range engagements almost as child's play. I incorporate a long range shooting block of instruction in my advanced courses and translate that type of training into what I consider to be practical critical use applications and it is incredible what some guys are capable of achieving. While it may be highly unlikely of it happening but if a pistol is all that they had, I sure as heck wouldn't want many of these guys engaging me with their pistols at 100+ yards in a combat situation.
I am a big proponent of long distance training, shrunken hit zone training (stressing extreme precision) and doing this both static and while shooting on the move. Again if you can get highly proficient at longer distances, say on smaller targets then up close and personal on human torso sized targets (upper center mass) seems stupidly simple.
[QUOTE=WillBrink;1250001]You guys ever see the vid of Bob Munden hitting a head sized balloon at 300 yards with a 1911? Munden is a freak. Also hit a balloon at 200 yards with a snub revolver. He's not human. :cool:
1:30 of this vid on the snub shot:
Damn I dont care who you are, thats impressive. If I remember right Tom Knapp did a similar feat on a history channel program. Ive tried at 100 with my g23 on a 8 inch gong and I was about 1- 4. Guess this means alot more practice.
You guys ever see the vid of Bob Munden hitting a head sized balloon at 300 yards with a 1911? Munden is a freak. Also hit a balloon at 200 yards with a snub revolver. He's not human. :cool:
1:30 of this vid on the snub shot:
Damn I dont care who you are, thats impressive. If I remember right Tom Knapp did a similar feat on a history channel program. Ive tried at 100 with my g23 on a 8 inch gong and I was about 1- 4. Guess this means alot more practice.
Maybe, but comparing yourself to Munden is like comparing yourself to Jorden and saying you need to work on your basketball. He's from some other planet I think.
polydeuces
03-06-12, 08:18
Rob - more like, 5 shots, 3 hits.
Considering wind-conditions it was sort of miraculous those 3 actually hit.
Totally agree w your statement (pre-edit).
Gene.
I haven't shot a handgun at 200 yards, but I used to shoot a PPC revolver double action, standing without support, at a Zerox copy of a $100.00 bill at 100 yards. It was a side match at the old National Shooter's League finals. Six rounds, most hits on the paper (8 1/2x11) with the hundred dollar bill serving as the x-ring. Best I ever did was four hits on the bill and two on the paper. Not good enough to win that year.
Yup, trigger control is a necessity. I learned that when I was shooting the precision sports. Then came IPSC and I learned trigger control is still a necessity, but it is a totally different type of trigger control, depending on the distance. There are times when trigger prep and only going to reset take a back seat to straight in and straight out with a passion.
About 4 years ago I took a one day Long Distance Pistol class from Randy Cain of Cumberland Tactics.
Randy expected to get hunters with scoped guns. Instead everyone on the line was shooting a 5 inch 1911 or a Glock in 9mm.
2nd to last exercise of the day was prone at 200 yards shooting at a USPSA sized steel target.
Running a Colt with CCI Blazer first shot was low, Randy told me to aim 4 inches above the target and then I managed to ding it with 6 of the next 7 rounds.
Of course this was after a full day of focused accurate shooting with coaching.
I signed up for this class as a day waster while waiting for another class and it turned into one of the most fun and challenging days I’ve spent on a range.
Well you guys got me to go out and try it for myself. I set the target at 200 yards and started blasting away using a general aiming point out in the grass and sage brush beyond the target. My aiming point (more like area) was a little below the brush on the right out in the brown grass with the gray dirt in the middle. The target was on a gentle slope and I ended up aiming over 100 yards beyond the target. I had 5 hits out of 15 shots. Of course many of those 15 shots were walking the shots in. I ran the ballistics on the load though the simplified JBM calculator figuring a 25 yard zero and came up with 86 inches of drop at 200 yards.
http://www.rtconnect.net/~rankeny/200.jpg
I am sure that some folks will call bs on what I'm about to say but it happened, I was there, and no, I don't have proof.
I watched Scotty N (bw instructor at the time) hit a 12x12 steel mover on the kd range strong hand only with a stock glock 17 with the exception of a - connector.
We were practicing carbine at 200 with the movers and at the end of that session, Scotty took aim at the mover and students started to joke around at what he was attempting. After he made his hit (first shot), one of he students said something like, "i bet you couldn't do that again," to which Scotty responded "I don't have to."
It was te most badass long range pistol shot I have ever witnessed.
If you ever get the chance find a copy of " fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting " by Ed McGivern.
This book was written back in the 30's and part of the book is dedicated to long range revolver shooting.
They documented shooting at 600 yards with a S&W 357 8 3/8 " barrel and hitting a man sized target over 50% of the time on a regular basis .
Lots of good reading in this book if you can find a copy.
Ha good deal!
We did that once in a Redback One class. Jason Falla took us over to the rifle range and had us do a fundamentals check by shooting steel at the 50, 75, and 100. Pretty cool.
When I first started qualifying as a young officer we started our course by firing from the 50 yard line for score...
When I first started qualifying as a young officer we started our course by firing from the 50 yard line for score...
Yup. And it seemed much closer then.... :)
When they gave us all the ammo we could shoot, we often played around to see what we could do with 4" & 6" revolvers at rifle distances. When that became boring, we started trying with our 2" guns. I'd say how far we were making regular hits, but it would sound like bullshit, even to me, and I was there....
I seem to remember a magazine article from the late 70's or early 80's, where they put tiny handguns in a ransom rest, and checked for accuracy at 100 yards. Even little .25 and .22 pocket pistols were capable of smaller than pie plate size groups at that range.
Kinda a necropost but dang 200 is impressive! Today at the range with my glock 23 i was semi-consistently hitting a steel 8 inch gong at 100 yards in a kneeling position and was feeling pretty good about myself, but it looks like im going to have to keep practicing and try for 200. i did smack the steel once with my 454 casull @ 100 and there is quite a noise difference when the larger round smacks it vs the glock.
Hogsgunwild
07-24-12, 21:17
Rio Salado range in Mesa used to (probably still does) have a chest sized (maybe 3' by 2'? maybe bigger?) gong at 300 yards.
With the .454 Casull 7.5" Freedom Arms revolver that I used to own, it was fairly easy to hit it at least 50% of the time.
With a 6" Model 610 (10MM) or 6.5" 629 (.44 Mag), you could jack the rear sight all the way up and put the top of the front sight on the top of the gong and you could get hits one or two times per cylinder.
With a 5" 610 and a 5" 629 you had to start using some Kentucky windage to get a hit or two per cylinder.
My Delta Gold Cup used to make it out there about the same way as the 5" revolvers.
My Glock 23: A good shot for me was to see the round hit within about 15 or 20 feet of the gong. Often times you could not see any dirt fly which meant that I was way off in the desert somewhere.
I was admiring a DPS officer's .40 S&W Sig 226 (I think it was the 226, I never owned a Sig and it has been about ten years or so)
and he was nice enough to offer to let me shoot it. I had just finished shooting my 5" 629 and G23 at the gong (both with hot loads). I had never shot a Sig before and I decided I didn't want to trash his fresh paper target so I told him I would just plink at the 300 yard gong.
It was a red box of 180gr bullets that I think were Federals but don't recall for sure. They were hot enough to reach out nicely. It sounds like BS but I swear that nine rounds landed within about two feet of the gong and the three that didn't knock any dirt up seemed to be good shots as far as what my follow through looked like to me meaning that I will never know if they could have actually been hits.
A hit on the gong with anything less than a .44 Magnum while others are shooting around you is nearly impossible to hear.
That sounds outlandish but when you think about the two guns that I had been shooting right before the Sig, a hot .44 and a very light G23 with hot loads, my trigger control was prepped and the relatively heavy for caliber Sig was just a complete, smooth, luxury to shoot, making the shots easier to place well.
And to think i was proud of hitting 100 yards...
2-3 years ago I tried shooting at a 250 yard silhouette metal target with a Yugo Tokarev. 4 rounds hit, the rest were close.
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