View Full Version : G19/Kahr combo vs. PPQ/PPS combo
I have a friend (yes, this really is for a friend....) who has been wanting to take ccw more seriously, is looking to take some classes and also do some competing.
So, he is going through the "pick a platform" proccess.
Anyhow, the crux of the issue for him; he wants to carry a single stack at work and during the summer. It's hot out here in AZ and he works in a non-permissive environment. In trying on various guns/holsters combinations (provided by friends, at gun stores, etc) he has determined that on work days, a smaller single stack is the what he is looking for.
He was leaning toward a G19, but does not like the width of the G26.
He has read enough on this forum and others that he wants a couple of pistols that will provide training commonality between class/competing and his ccw gun.
I recommended a G19/Kahr combination, and he liked the idea.
The other combo he is interested in is a PPQ/PPS...
Anyhow, to get him over his analysis peralysis hump, I told him I would post a poll on here.
So, if you were starting form scratch in terms of platform/s and wanted to have a single stack for ccw at work, a full-size or compact for carry on the weekends/ winter as well as for use during classes and eventually competition, which combo would you choose and why?
EDIT: If you put other.. let us know what you would suggest.
I have a friend (yes, this really is for a friend....) who has been wanting to take ccw more seriously, is looking to take some classes and also do some competing.
He's overthinking it. Have him buy a matched pair of any of those four (I vote PPS), plus 6-8 extra magazines, a good holster, and a shitload of ammo. Then send him to the range to bring forth order from chaos.
Okie John
Lucky Strike
03-05-12, 19:28
I vote other because I just bought a PPQ and Kahr CM9. Both showed up at my FFL on the same day. Went with the CM9 over the PPS cause it's smaller.
I actually have the G19/Kahr PM9 combo. I ended up carrying the PM9 almost exclusively.
I carried a Colt Officers Model .45 for nearly 30 years and then went to a PM45. I still use the PM45 but lately have been relying on the PM9 due to it being a little smaller and easier to conceal.
I really like Kahr's quality and they are quite accurate for such a small size handgun.
I'd vote g19 + pps.
Any trouble with the differences in mag release?
NinjaTactics
03-06-12, 01:05
I have the PPS/PPQ combo currently, so you can guess how I'd vote. I'm about as accurate with Glocks as the Walthers, but having the same platform for both guns on the Walthers is very nice. I really like the ambidextrous mag release location on the Walthers, and prefer it over the Glock release.
The Walther quality is top notch, and the only downside I can think of for them is that the magazines are more expensive, but in the grand scheme (like compared to cost of ammo we all run through these guns) that's pretty irrelevant in the long run.
Any trouble with the differences in mag release?
That would be a training issue. My real vote (and my ccw choice) would be g23(19) and g27(26). I'm one of the unlucky fools that has had bad luck with Kahr reliability and if I had to get a single stack would go pps over kahr.
Beat Trash
03-06-12, 09:36
I love the Glock 19. But mine is an older Gen3 that was made before Glock start having issues.
I own a reliable PM9. But reliability on these guns can be a crap shoot. The trigger is vastly different from the Glock and the gun is almost too small for my hands. Great pocket gun, but for IWB carry, I'd get something I can shoot more effectively.
I bought a PPS 9mm last summer. This thing is much more accurate and shootable than I would have ever expected. The trigger is similar enough to the Glock that it'd be a good pair.
The difference in mag releases is a non-issue for me. But the more time I spend with the Walther mag release, the more I like it, especially for a gun that is concealed or deeply concealed.
I've only dry fired a PPQ, but I was impressed with the stock trigger for a NIB gun.
For your friend, I'd get a PPS for his single stack gun. Get a 6 rd and a 7rd mag to adjust the size of the gun. (I own an 8 rd mag that came with the gun, not impressed personally.)
Then get either a Glock 19 or a PPQ, whichever one he likes better.
A Glock 17 / Glock 26 combo would make worlds of sense. but for me, i like and shoot the Walther PPQ better than anything, and have always been impressed with my PPS. I carry the PPQ all the time, and use the PPS for areas where I just have to fit the gun in somewhere because i can't CCW, such as a laptop bag pocket, etc...
they are both great and fun guns.
I think the idea is sound to try and keep as much similarity between the shooting gun and the carrying gun. If Kahr made a 10 round magazine I'd *almost* carry a PM9 and shoot with a T9 (http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-T9.asp).
The G26 can still be a bitch to carry especially for someone new to carrying and going IWB. You really don't gain a whole lot over the G19 if you're doing IWB (although I notice less discomfort sitting for long periods with the G29).
I have a Kahr CW9 and I had a Glock 19 for many years. That combination fulfilled my needs for a couple of years, but the difference in the triggers and the difference in the way they point (ergonomics) is something that may or may not leave a person shaking their head and half way frustrated.
I owned a PPS for a short time, but I got rid of it because of reliability issues and the subsequent loss of confidence. I have handled and dry fired a PPQ. The PPQ does have a very nice trigger with a short reset. A person could do a lot worse than the PPQ/PPS combination.
I am an old school 1911 guy and my present carry combo is a Dan Wesson V-Bob and a Springfield EMP in 9mm. Of course the problem with the 1911 route is finding a small (thin), reliable, lightweight, pistol that you can trust that won't break the bank.
If I had to choose between the combos given by the OP, it would be go with Walther. Of course that assumes the ergos are suitable.
I think the idea is sound to try and keep as much similarity between the shooting gun and the carrying gun. If Kahr made a 10 round magazine I'd *almost* carry a PM9 and shoot with a T9 (http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-T9.asp).
The G26 can still be a bitch to carry especially for someone new to carrying and going IWB. You really don't gain a whole lot over the G19 if you're doing IWB (although I notice less discomfort sitting for long periods with the G29).
I've noticed a g26/27 with the pinky extension is a great size for me. The back corner of the g19/23 tends to print easier the extended 26/27 and the extender gives a good grip.
I've been tempted to pick up another g23 and chop the grip down to 27 lengths and see how that does. But I picked up an M&P compact which has the barrel length of a g19 and grip length of a g26.
If commonality is what he wants the PPS/PPQ would be the best route due to the trigger and magazine release. He could also consider a PM9-MK9-CM9/TP9-T9 combo for the same reasons. As someone else said, he's making it more difficult than it needs to be. Pick what you like and what shoots best for you and train.
He could also consider a PM9-MK9-CM9/TP9-T9 combo for the same reasons.
He's thought about this exact set-up but seems to have two concerns; is it going to be a pain to run the smaller, single stack Kahrs at classes etc (with the PPS he has the PPQ for classes and outside of work carry) and two, he's read a lot about being able to learn to run the gun faster if it has a shorter reset, hence his interest in the Walther's. My wife carries a Pm9 and I have one of the old E9's. He likes both, but does recognize the Kahr has a long reset.
I won't disagree with you on the long reset of the Kahrs.
The smaller PM9 sized version may be a pain but the TP9/T9 provide a long enough grip that it shouldn't be a problem. The TP9 looks to have the same grip thickness as the CM9/PM9 which won't exactly fill the hand but the T9 with its wooden grip panels should feel much better.
Also, if the polymer sub-compacts are to unbearable to shoot or handle the MK9(metal frame version) does provide more comfort and less recoil but at the cost of more weight and a slick grip. The grip feels slick but it was never a problem for me while shooting. You can always put a rubber grip sleeve or some grip tape on it if you need.
Out of the 4 pistols I would go G19/PPS combo
I'd vote g19 + pps.
This is what I'm rocking these days.
The Kahr and Glock triggers are not at all comparable... I love the feel and size of Kahr pistols, don't get me wrong, but that trigger is a mile long.
-B
Nephrology
03-06-12, 19:41
Between the 2 options listed, I picked the PPQ/PPS. IF he has the money for them. they are better mated than a Glock and a Kahr.
The new Glocks have issues, and I do not care for the Kahr. I carry Glocks exclusively (19 + 26). If I was doing it over again right now, I'd probably pick the PPQ/PPS. That said I am quite happy with my G26 and G19 and will not be replacing them in the forseeable future.
You really don't gain a whole lot over the G19 if you're doing IWB (
I respectfully disagree. I used to say this until I got a G26 of my own.On MY frame, the G26 conceals much more comfortably under just a T-shirt, which I wear most days during the summer time. The G19 does not conceal well under just a T-shirt and I found myself not carrying as a result. A PPS or other single stack might be better, yes, but the G26 does the trick for me.
I'd suggest Glock 19 and Glock 26. the 19 mags work in both guns. Holsters for the 19 will fit the 26.
I am currently carrying a Glock 33/Kahr CM9 combo.
The CM9 goes in the pocket.
I am about to buy a gen4 Glock 32 (the gen3 32 will become the leave in the car gun) and go to a Glock 32/33 combo. I lent the CM9 to one of my dispatchers.
Personally I would go 17/26 or 17/PPS, don't like the way the 19 fits my hand. 17 is only about .5" larger in length and height and I find even being smaller I can carry it equally as well as a 19, but the grip is much for comfortable for me.
Trying to decide what to do at the moment myself, 26 or PPS, having spare parts, magazines, sight tool, etc is driving me towards the 26, but the thinness of the PPS keeps drawing me in.
chapperjoe
03-07-12, 11:55
I tried to pick one platform, but was left with a deep carry exception.
I have
an MP9 full size for the home,
a MP9 compact for 90% of all situations I leave the house,
and had to get a Kahr CM9 for suits, running, deep carry, etc.
MY wife favors revolvers, and better the gun she's comfortable with than any other, so she's keeping them.
best I can hope for is to sell off my unneededs (add in EE lol) and get her some clip loading j-frames.
I have a PPQ that I bought because I'd made the PPS my carry gun and the mag release was idiosyncratic enough I wanted to standardize, so that's my vote.
That said, I also have a G19. Everyone should have a G19.
The Kahr and Glock triggers are different enough that I personally wasn't willing to make that compromise. I tried the P9 for the role being discussed but didn't want to get used to the long reset. The PPS and Glock aren't identical but the PPS is a hell of a lot closer to being a single stack 9mm Glock than the Kahr is...in my opinion.
Lots of helpful responses guys. Thanks. He is about 90% decided on the PPQ / PPS combo. Although the fact that Glocks share mags is a tempting thing for him, he really wants a single stack.
Didn't read all if the opinions on here, but I concur with Glock 19/PPS combo. The mag releases are different, I've yet to bungle a reload for that reason. I carry the PPS more in NPEs then the Glock, and find myself shooting it more and more! I've got about 700 rounds through it, 2 double feeds (both ammo/torture test related). I trust the PPS about as much as I can my Glock 19s at this point. In an ankle holster, or appendix carry rig, I can wear anything and nobody knows I'm carrying a pistol. It's hard to beat it for a deep concealment pistol and foresee mine seeing more use as summer approaches! I even carry mine in a belly band while running and working out and it fits that as well. It's far more accurate then ANY other micro pistol I've shot and it runs like a Glock (minus mag changes).
Hello everyone I am new to this forum. I came here by Goggle when I posed the question does anyone CCW a G19 / Kahr CW9 combination? I usually Carry one or the other, but not both at the same time. I will think about two pistols rather than one and a spare magazine. Even with a belt holster I have to work to carry other necessary stuff in pockets. It is easy in the summer with cargo shorts.
So how do you guys carry two pistols, a phone, keys, a billfold and a knife? This is a very interesting form.
-- Richard
bluejackets92fs
11-03-13, 22:48
I voted other. My choice would be a G19 and a M&P Shield. Both are reliable. I have a tough time recommending Kahr products based on their ridiculous MFG suggested break in periods and reliability issues.
H&K P30 & P2000SK, because while they may hate you, but they make guns that are too good to ignore.
I carry G19's and PPQ's on and off duty, depends on what I feel like carrying that day. Have him shoot each one and decide from there on which one of those he prefers. Also he must take into account which version of the PPQ, the M1 paddle, or M2 button version he wants, I have both. The M1 would obviously work better with the PPS from a same controls standpoint.
For the PPS, I would say it or the Kahr hands down over the 26. The 26 is the same thickness as the 19, and there isn't much of an advantage over the 19. I always tell folks, if you can carry a 26, then you can carry a 19. The 19/26 combo is repetitive in my eyes.
Along with my PPQ or 19, I always have one of my LCPs, I have 4 of them. Remember always dress around what your carrying, don't carry what fits in to your wardrobe.
TXPO
The Kahr and Glock triggers are different enough
This...
I trust my Kahr P40 and shoot it well, but switching between DAO and PPQ has made me realize that in a stress situation trigger confusion could be an issue.
When most of my shooting was CCW practice with the P40 I had no issue. But I grew up on DA revolvers and 1911s, and switch fairly easily between them. I think its a muscle memory think triggered by the grip and presence of a safety.
But all the poly frames feel similar, and it's a risk.
My vote based on shooting and carrying many of the options would be ppq and pps. Or just ppq.
Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
Remember always dress around what your carrying, don't carry what fits in to your wardrobe.
I think this is good advice. While your friend is inclined towards a single stack for CCW, it is trivial to carry a G26 sized firearm IMO. G19+G26 works, HK P30+P2000SK works, PPQ+P99C works.
The upside is you should be able to share/use full capacity mags with all these choices.
In most cases, G19 sized firearms can be carried without too much pain.
Don't forget a good quality, made-for-your-gun is an important component to successful and safe CCW.
-john
WickedWillis
11-05-13, 12:02
He was leaning toward a G19, but does not like the width of the G26.
Huh? They are damn near identical in width, unless someone corrects me I think they are exactly the same. Platform uniformity, he can carry more ammo that way for BOTH guns. I recently started carrying a G26 on my ankle, to back up my G19 on my hip. I think he's over-complicating things.
I'd vote g19 + pps. I concur. My primary carry guns are G19s. I carry a PPS in a weakside pocket as a backup. We originally bought a PPS because my wife liked the trigger better than our Kahrs(at that time a PM9, K9, and TP9, now down to the PM9). I was struck by how Glock-like the PPS is in terms of trigger characteristics, and in terms of pointing characteristics, at least with the larger backstrap installed.
The different mag release on the G19 vs. PPS hasn't been an issue for me, but I can see how it could be for other folks.
Huh? They are damn near identical in width, unless someone corrects me I think they are exactly the same. Platform uniformity, he can carry more ammo that way for BOTH guns. I recently started carrying a G26 on my ankle, to back up my G19 on my hip. I think he's over-complicating things.
I think he means he doesn't plan to CCW the G19, and thinks the G26 is too wide for CCW.
-john
WickedWillis
11-05-13, 13:53
I think he means he doesn't plan to CCW the G19, and thinks the G26 is too wide for CCW.
-john
Gotcha. When I'm not carrying my 19, and I want to run light I carry my G26 IWB. I personally don't feel it's too thick, and I think the OP's "Friend" Is misinformed, or uneducated.
Army Chief
11-05-13, 14:53
Not a bad poll, but I think we always tend to over-analyze these things. As I've observed before, having a gun -- any gun -- is the only true no-fail component involved in any of this, and competence with that gun is the next greatest priority.
Since so few ever really progress very far into the second phase, the associated hardware issues tend to interest me a lot less. Not that that is no connection, nor that the questions aren't worth asking, but you're always going to get a wide range of opinions once we get to that point. What meets my needs may be completely impractical for someone else's. As a 1911 guy, I'm fairly sure that is very much the case. Heck, I consider a Rail Gun a viable CCW piece.
Of the options provided, though, I would favor a brace of Walthers (PPQ/PPS). Don't have any real experience with the PPS, but I was sufficiently impressed by the PPQ as to have given one the only position that polymer gun occupies in my armamentarium.
AC
WickedWillis
11-05-13, 15:36
Shield & M&P9c
The Shield yes, I cannot recommend anyone the 9C.
Of the options provided, though, I would favor a brace of Walthers (PPQ/PPS). Don't have any real experience with the PPS, but I was sufficiently impressed by the PPQ as to have given one the only position that polymer gun occupies in my armamentarium.
AC
Nothing against the PPS, but fwiw, the P99C is probably more of a soulmate to the PPQ than the PPS. It should even accept PPQ (v1) mags.
-john
Army Chief
11-05-13, 19:13
Nothing against the PPS, but fwiw, the P99C is probably more of a soulmate to the PPQ than the PPS. It should even accept PPQ (v1) mags.
-john
Absolutely right. A PPQC would have been a natural fit and a sure-seller, but until that happens (if ever), the P99C is probably the better reduced-form factor equivalent. I realize that the PPS has a strong following, but it does strike me as a fundamentally different gun than the PPQ series.
AC
I have a Glock 19 that I carry when I can conceal it and a CM9 that I carry when I can't, both carried AIWB. I can forget the CM9 is there. The 19 never lets me forget it's there but it isn't really uncomfortable either (just a little heavy and pulls front of my pants down a bit when walking around a lot). The 19's only issue with concealing is the grip will print with thin t-shirts, and of course when tucking shirt in. I love both guns, got my vote.
I'm partial to a G19/Shield combo.
your friend has not picked a "platform" as both guns in either scenario don't share the same magazines, and the PP-series barely share the same trigger. a better "platform" would be G19/26 or M&P FS/Compact...
crusader377
11-07-13, 10:25
I personally would go with the M&P 9 and M&P Shield in 9mm. Both pistols have the very similar handling characteristics and similar triggers.
WickedWillis
11-07-13, 10:42
I personally would go with the M&P 9 and M&P Shield in 9mm. Both pistols have the very similar handling characteristics and similar triggers.
Very different triggers on these two Smiths. The Shield has a very good trigger, and unless you do work to the full-size they aren't close.
Michael2007
11-07-13, 11:24
I would say the full size or compact M&P9 and a shield if you really want a single stack option. That being said I carry a G19 99% of the time and a J Frame 1% of the time.
Canonshooter
11-07-13, 17:06
I bought a PPS 9mm last summer. This thing is much more accurate and shootable than I would have ever expected. The trigger is similar enough to the Glock that it'd be a good pair.
The difference in mag releases is a non-issue for me. But the more time I spend with the Walther mag release, the more I like it, especially for a gun that is concealed or deeply concealed.
For your friend, I'd get a PPS for his single stack gun. Get a 6 rd and a 7rd mag to adjust the size of the gun. (I own an 8 rd mag that came with the gun, not impressed personally.)
Then get either a Glock 19 or a PPQ, whichever one he likes better.
+1 on the statements above.
I used the PPS in 9mm for a couple of IDPA matches and I am very impressed with its reliability, accuracy and ease of making fast hits for such an easily concealed pistol. I used a CompTac Minotaur IWB for the matches, which is what I normally carry the PPS in. Sure, my scores were not as high as using my Glock, but I really did not give up any points on targets 3 yards and closer. At least for me, the PPS "point shoots" extremely well.
When I feel the occasional need to carry something larger, I have a Glock 17C Gen 3 with a variety of holsters to choose from, based on need. I also use the 17C in IDPA with a non-vented barrel.
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