Why do people think they can "save money" on an AR? [Archive]

m4brian

03-06-12, 10:43

Because ARs are almost ubiquitous today, people want one. They also see them in movies and the tube, and because they are 'tacticool' (hate that yet?), they want one.

Then make what I would call "logic transfers" from their previous 'knowledge base' and in some cases experience. They all know the guy who bought a Savage 110 in a pawn shop who gets a buck every year, can shoot like a house of fire, who generally outdoes another guy who bought a Sako for 4 times as much, and all bubba did was give up some pride of ownership and "fit and finish".

Then... making that analogy 'stick' in their head, try to transfer it to the world of combat carbines, and don't understand that the analogue does not work. I think this is the reason behind the 'why can't I save money and buy X' thinking.

Just a thought.

Grizzly16

03-06-12, 10:54

That and all their buddies who have a cheap AR that runs like a champ! But like a champ means twice a year at the local range where it is shot from a bench rest and any ftf/fte are no big deal like they would be in a class/battle/home defense situation.

obucina

03-06-12, 10:55

because, to the masses, all ARs look the same?

I had this discussion with a coworker who watches Sons of Guns religiously. He explained to me how super awesome the "Desert AR" was because it has a piston system like an AK, but failed due to "something with a buffer". I then explained to him that if he wants a black rifle, a Colt 6920 is a good deal for just under 1k, his rebuttal was simple yet stupid, yeah but one of those bushmasters at the gun show it like $600...The average new-to-the-AR buyer is looking at the paintjob and the price. Kind of like buying a Kia on buy one, get one free.

hotrodder636

03-06-12, 11:01

I think some of it is just based on one's priorities. I (with all things, not just firearms) personally like to buy quality. The way I think of it is that I would rather buy one item that costs 3x more than brand x, knowing that my quality item will last longer or as long as having bought 2 more items of brand x because it was of inferior quality. Hope that made sense.
Also I think some people are just content with the "cheaper" guns because they might shoot 100 rounds per year or just show it off to their friends with ZERO concern for overall functionality and long term reliability. Why? Who knows....
Lastly, I think the "you don't know what you don't know" theory is probably the biggest piece to this. I originally found this site while I was researching suppressors for a .45ACP. After reading on here a lot, I feel that I have gained TONS of knowledge with still more to come.

fixit69

03-06-12, 11:02

Personally, it could be many different things to different things for many different people. One is as you touched in in your post, research or lack thereof. Knowledge base, don't even get me started.

It comes back to the old saying on here " you don't know what you don't know". Taking just these few facts into consideration, it comes to me as no surprise that most they are "saving money" because "brand b is just as good as...".

Just me...

m4brian

03-06-12, 11:02

Actually, I think Kia makes good autos, but Bush and DPMS don't make good ARs...

NoveskeFan

03-06-12, 11:15

because, to the masses, all ARs look the same?

Yup. I also think a lot of people that say "I want a range toy, plinker, HD, SHTF weapon." are really fooling themselves and know deep down that they will only use it as a range, plinker, look what I have gun.

burialworm

03-06-12, 11:31

Still new to the game here, but i do believe the single biggest factor is the get it cheap and get it now. Instant gratification is built in to our society these days, alto of people want one simply because its the "in" item right now. They don't know how they plan to use it, they have no intentions of putting thousands of rounds down range, they just know that they can get one and they all look alike. That leads to the purchase of either the first they see or the cheapest they find, oft times being the same gun, an Olympic or bushmaster or some other gun that they see in their local BBS. That being said good on them for not minding and keeping the gun trade going. Every dollar spent is a dollar that goes against anti gun bureaucracy. And even if you or I don't approve of their choice as long as they enjoy it for the purpose they purchased it for, it is a good investment. Just my. 02

Iraqgunz

03-06-12, 11:41

burialworm

03-06-12, 11:48

It was a question. Curious why some people choose an ar over a pistol or a shotgun (if they have these of course).

Personally I believe that a pistol is a tool to get to a long gun, be it shotgun, carbine, or rifle. For me this is at least partially due to versatility, partially due to lethality, and partially due to comfort with said platform. When it comes to pistols my comfort level is strongest in wheel guns, they have a distinct disadvantage in round count. While in very few home defense scenario's do you need more than the 5 rounds I keep in my bedside gun, they do exist. I am extremely comfortable with multiple long gun platforms, I do not currently own an AR, my first step after my wheel gun is a shotgun containing 8 rounds, and after that I have a rifle with 15 rounds in it. If by the time I have exhausted this amount of ammunition I have not neutralized the threat, I would be highly surprised.

That all being said I will be replacing the shotgun with an AR very soon. The shotgun will then replace the rifle.

Leonidas24

03-06-12, 11:56

Agreed. But on the subject of home defense how many of you use your ars? And is this because you don't own a shotgun or a pistol? Seems like the only advantage would be intimidation?

Some people have certain limitations which precludes them from using either a handgun or a shotgun. Personally I keep an AR by the bed at night because it's what I'm most proficient with. I also made the mistake in the past of building up my AR while almost ignoring my handgun skills. That was a couple years ago and has since changed but I still prefer the AR in almost every way other than size and maneuverability.

Now that that's out of the way, to the OP: I see a lot of ARs come through the range in the hands of shooters that don't fit the bill as people who are educated or interested in educating themselves on the full merits of the system. The bolt is dry or is nearly dry with a little CLP on the outside, they use BSA as an optic, they have more gizmos than inspector gadget hanging off the front, etc. The only thing to do with those types of folks is to offer up as much advice when asked, and then refer them to a website like this. Others won't handle said advice so well and will continue to use sub-par assemblies and parts. The only thing to do with those people is to stand by and wait for something to break. When that happens jump in and offer up as much advice as possible and explain in detail why things like proper barrel steel, HPT/MPI, etc, are important.

hotrodder636

03-06-12, 12:01

It was a question. Curious why some people choose an ar over a pistol or a shotgun (if they have these of course).

I am by no means a SME, however I am pretty darned sure that the AR rounds have less penetration (ie walls, doors, etc) than do their pistol/shotgun counterparts while retaining very effective ballistics against a tissue-target, thus making them a "safer" and effective HD weapon.

There was a drywall penetration test, I think done from someone on this site comparing shotgun, various pistol calibers and an AR...the AR did not penetrate the walls nearlty as far as the other guns. Food for thought.

hawk45

03-06-12, 12:14

It's not just about ARs.. it's about everything. Who wants to waste money (though we do often)?

There is nothing wrong with value as long as it meets your requirement. So what is your requirement.. plinking, work gun, hang on wall to show buddies, long range marksmanship, etc.

If I'm just wanting to plink at the range.. a lower end AR with a Primary Arms red dot may be perfect.

If I'm building/buying a working gun.. it needs to be light and as close to 100% reliable as possible.

If I'm building a marksmanship gun, it won't be light but will require special needs for fit etc.

I see lots of guys trying to save a buck or two buying from multiple places for parts, only to pay more in shipping between all the orders than if they would have just paid a few bucks more for a few parts at one store.. and got them all at one time.

We are funny people.. humans. Sometimes its the joy of the hunt and there are bargin shoppers in all of us.

But if you plan to actually shoot your AR.. you won't save any money. Ammo is the most expensive part of any system (if actually used and not just looked at and finger-banged).

devinsdad

03-06-12, 12:18

Many times it's because thats what the store sells them. Lots of people who buy AR's do so because thats what they see on the news that our soldiers have. When at the store, they guy sells them a Bushy/DPMS stating "it's the same thing" and quite possibly has a better profet margine with them over a Colt. As for why do they buy one...Many can't rationalize spending a grand when they are going to get the same mileage out of a $5-600 gun.

Zell959

03-06-12, 12:19

A bit of a rehash on what some others have said, but I think the common reasons are generally somewhat as follows:

Statistically speaking, most recreational/civilian gun owners that own some manner of AR15 will probably own one made by Bushmaster, Stag Arms or one of the other high volume & reduced quality makers.

As already stated, a significant portion of these owners don't push their rifles very hard, but are still comfortable vouching for its "quality"

A first time AR15 buyer won't understand the limitations of a casual users ownership experience and often takes the endorsements at face value.

Even if a 1st time buyer tries to get more opinions, for every M4carbine. there are 10 gunshops w/3 clerks that will all tell you there is zero difference between bushmaster & colt.

People love to feel like they scored a good deal and/or maximized their dollar by finding a markets 'sweet spot'. It's not a bad thing to have the desire to be a 'smart' consumer, but that requires research many new AR15 buyer's don't do enough of.

The above, in aggregate, is a rough mix and will often result in someone feeling that the "smart":rolleyes: choice is to save $300 and not pay "just for a name". Ask me how I know...:o

IYAAYASwarrior

03-06-12, 12:36

I too fell victim to the "all AR's look the same" mentality. in 2007 I came across a deal on a DPMS sportical. Not knowing what I know now I thought I snagged a great AR at a bottom shelf price. $500.00 was the price I paid. I took it to the range maybe 2 times and both times I went to the same range I had multiple problems. I turned to a friend that recently joined the Marine Corps as an Armorer I think and clarified a few things for me. I accepted that my $500.00 price tag was in all actuality, better spent elsewhere. As I have learned more, I have come to the conclusion that owning an AR or any other platform for that matter requires knowledge on the system, and emphasis placed on value. I like to compare the ignorance level of the "all AR's are the same" populous to that of the voters that placed ol' Barry as COC. If they only knew what was coming, they would not have done so.

johnpuga1982

03-06-12, 12:40

I think it depends on what you're passionate about. For example, people on here are passionate about ARs/weapon systems, while their wife, girl friend, daughter, sister are passionate about purses. We might not see the value in a $1200 Louis Vuitton or Coco Chanel purse, but to the ladies there is great value.

Everyone has a different perception of value when it comes to different things. Unless its that guy who is a cheap ass and won't spend money on anything.

burialworm

03-06-12, 12:53

I like to compare the ignorance level of the "all AR's are the same" populous to that of the voters that placed ol' Barry as COC. If they only knew what was coming, they would not have done so.

Great analogy, and had those same voters listened to the few who educated themselves, we may not be where we are today.

shua713

03-06-12, 13:28

Sry0fcr

03-06-12, 14:11

Why do people think they can "save money" on an AR?

Because they're ignorant. But mostly because the average gun owner is cheap. When you combine ignorance with cheapness you get, "Just as good as."

a1fabweld

03-06-12, 14:52

I am pretty darned sure that the AR rounds have less penetration (ie walls, doors, etc) than do their pistol/shotgun counterparts while retaining very effective ballistics against a tissue-target, thus making them a "safer" and effective HD weapon.

I was blowing holes in 3/8" mild steel plate last weekend with my AR. I know my .45 or shotgun loaded with slugs or buckshot won't do that. I think drywall povides less resistence than steel. Think this one through again.

K9 jake

03-06-12, 15:19

I cannot help but think that this Thread was started, because of the thread I started, yesterday. I was looking for some advice, on my 1st AR purchase.
In this economy Its in my best interest to save $when I can. I've since decided on a colt, after listening to some of the members sound advice.
Having said that, I am 40 yrs old, i work, i have raised my kids, I have hunted, fished, and owned guns all my life, though i have never needed an AR. and if I decide to buy one, i shouldn't be thought of as a wannabe, or "tacticool" or Johnny-come-lately or whatever condescending terms some folks use to describe other Americans. We all have the right to bear arms, but not the right to judge others.

K9 jake

03-06-12, 15:25

NoveskeFan

03-06-12, 15:30

I'm sorry for that outburst, especially if i am wrong.
I just saw that thread and it kinda rubbed me wrong. I was only asking for some advice from those who know, and it kinda made me feel like I needed permission, or that I just walked into some private golf clubhouse, and ordered a beer.
No offense....

I don't think this thread is aimed at you. You joined, asked some questions, given advise and pointed into the right direction (Colt). I feel this thread is more aimed at those that buy a lower quality AR and feel justified that their $600 carbine is as good as one proven to be better in materials and craftsmanship.

richdkim77

03-06-12, 15:53

I can't say that I have alot in my AR, it's a Bush carbon (waiting for the boo's). I have more change in the optic (Acog). I have had 2 different Bush's and never had an issue w/ either of them. I originally got my 2nd not knowing too much about AR's based on look and feel, didn't read reviews---just knew my 1st AR was a Bush and was fine as a patrol rifle. After purchasing it, I found out I bought the Bush Lady. Take away my man card after that. After shooting it, I love it! It's LIGHT and if you have to leave it hanging you can't hardly tell it's there. And the folks that have given me a ration for it being a "girl" gun always seem to quiet down after seeing it perform and understanding it wouldn't matter if the dern thing was PINK...It does the same job as their AR. My agency uses Bush/Colts so not quite sure why Bush is soooo hated by a bunch of folks on here??? Now I don't shoot 2K rounds a week or anything and I'm not a tourney shooter, I just love going in the back yard and shooting. Still after doing more research and visiting this forum before joining I am getting my 13 year old an AR. I am still not spending a ton, especially on his 1st AR, ohhhh and it's got a Bush upper. I consider it sorta like buying your kid a car. I am not going to buy a 30-40K car for my 16 year old un-experienced driver when a 6-10K vehicle will do the same (point A-to point B) although it won't be as fancy and all. I have seen the Big Dawg parts in the AR world and when I get my 300 BO done, I'll spend a little more change on it but just because you spend 3K on an AR, will it destroy something/someone any better then a 1K AR???

If you don't shoot much, and all you're shooting at is dirt and paper, I'm sure the Bushy will serve you just fine. However, your last sentence is just silly. Where has anyone on this board recommended or even suggested buying a 3k AR? Colt's, BCM's DD's can all be had for less than 1k. All of which I'd rather shoot than a Bushy.

RIDE

03-06-12, 15:56

Am I missing something? In some cases one can save money over an off the shelf purchase. But, it all depends. \

For example; when I built my SBR I did so because the configuration and options I wanted weren't available. I considered a Colt 6933, but it would have cost me more than what my build did w/o any extras.

I have also put together stuff for friends that also came out a couple of hundred dollars less than what it would have cost them elsewhere.

I originally thought the same thing.. But the OP is talking about people saving money through buying an inferior rifle.. For example getting a BM instead of a DD and doing so because it "saves" a few hundred bucks.

MrSmitty

03-06-12, 15:59

I'll spend a little more change on it but just because you spend 3K on an AR, will it destroy something/someone any better then a 1K AR???

In a life and death situation, I'd rather have a 99.9% chance that it will go bang when my finger hits the trigger than an 80% or even 90% chance. Could be the difference between going home in a pine box. Most of the members on this forum use these tools in a professional capacity and therefor it is senseless to make a comparison like that.

IYAAYASwarrior

03-06-12, 16:10

I can't say that I have alot in my AR, it's a Bush carbon (waiting for the boo's). I have more change in the optic (Acog). I have had 2 different Bush's and never had an issue w/ either of them. I originally got my 2nd not knowing too much about AR's based on look and feel, didn't read reviews---just knew my 1st AR was a Bush and was fine as a patrol rifle. After purchasing it, I found out I bought the Bush Lady. Take away my man card after that. After shooting it, I love it! It's LIGHT and if you have to leave it hanging you can't hardly tell it's there. And the folks that have given me a ration for it being a "girl" gun always seem to quiet down after seeing it perform and understanding it wouldn't matter if the dern thing was PINK...It does the same job as their AR. My agency uses Bush/Colts so not quite sure why Bush is soooo hated by a bunch of folks on here??? Now I don't shoot 2K rounds a week or anything and I'm not a tourney shooter, I just love going in the back yard and shooting. Still after doing more research and visiting this forum before joining I am getting my 13 year old an AR. I am still not spending a ton, especially on his 1st AR, ohhhh and it's got a Bush upper. I consider it sorta like buying your kid a car. I am not going to buy a 30-40K car for my 16 year old un-experienced driver when a 6-10K vehicle will do the same (point A-to point B) although it won't be as fancy and all. I have seen the Big Dawg parts in the AR world and when I get my 300 BO done, I'll spend a little more change on it but just because you spend 3K on an AR, will it destroy something/someone any better then a 1K AR???

I love reading different threads and will learn alot from this forum, just like the other forums I belong too. I especially love the AR picture thread!!!! Gun porn at it's best!!!!!!:D

I see where you are coming from, but I say this to you: The comparison is based on experience with certain items that have set the standard, and others that can't come close. Think of it like driving a civic and loving it, until you drive a ferrari and the civic drives like junk. After the experience with the Ferrari, it is hard to return to the level of the civic and be content knowing there is something of superior quality out there. I am not attempting to attack you, I am just shedding light on the thought process. Enjoy your shooting! It's your right!

Suwannee Tim

03-06-12, 16:57

.....I'd rather have a 99.9% chance that it will go bang when my finger hits the trigger than an 80% or even 90% chance......

I've never seen troublesome AR on the range except a S&W piston gun that lost it's taper pin and gas cylinder. I marvel at the reliability of the design, no matter who made it. I see noobs come and go from the range shooting this, that and the other, shoot a couple of hundred rounds, no problems. Not to say that there aren't troublesome guns around but great majority of ARs work. When I shot pistols more it seems someone had an issue with something most every time I went to the range. Lots and lots of issues with 1911s.

As for why folks want to cheap out, sometimes it is ignorance, sometimes stupidity, sometimes a mindset bordering on mental illness. I worked for a guy for a couple of years who believed cheaper is better. Cheap stuff cost that company a lot of money. You couldn't tell him. He seemed to think breakdowns, production problems and manufacturing unsaleable junk was cost free.

SicTransit

03-06-12, 17:01

I was blowing holes in 3/8" mild steel plate last weekend with my AR. I know my .45 or shotgun loaded with slugs or buckshot won't do that. I think drywall povides less resistence than steel. Think this one through again.

I didn't believe it either but apparently it's true (for certain loads anyway).
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/test-parameters.html

jaibo

03-06-12, 17:43

I see where you are coming from, but I say this to you: The comparison is based on experience with certain items that have set the standard, and others that can't come close. Think of it like driving a civic and loving it, until you drive a ferrari and the civic drives like junk. After the experience with the Ferrari, it is hard to return to the level of the civic and be content knowing there is something of superior quality out there. I am not attempting to attack you, I am just shedding light on the thought process. Enjoy your shooting! It's your right!

Your comment is no where near thought of as an attack on me brother....I have the same thought as most on here about my deer rifle....Would I trust 1 over the other? No. Would I prefer 1 over the other? Yes, due to 11 rounds over 6. I went from a Rem 700 to a Steyr and its a difference I notice. That being said I trust my Bush w/ life as it is my patrol rifle and trust it, when needed. Everyone has $.02 to add and that's why these forums and this country are great!!! We can display likes/dislikes w/ out fear of punishment!

Moose-Knuckle

03-06-12, 17:49

To a wise consumer saving is the name of the game.

I think some in this thread are confusing "saving" and "cheap".

My last AR was a DD M4V5 lightweight, instead of paying whatever the dealers were charging for the whole rife (provided you can find one in stock) I purchased the compete DD upper from Aim Surplus and a complete DD lower from Grant. By getting the factory upper separate from the factory lower I saved several hundred dollars. ;)

So yes one can obtain a reputable AR (Colt, BCM, DD) without breaking the bank. Many times you can get one of these for the same and or less than you can find the commercial grade hobby guns (RRA, Bushmaster, etc).

45auto

03-06-12, 18:28

I can't say that I have alot in my AR, it's a Bush carbon (waiting for the boo's). I have more change in the optic (Acog). I have had 2 different Bush's and never had an issue w/ either of them. I originally got my 2nd not knowing too much about AR's based on look and feel, didn't read reviews---just knew my 1st AR was a Bush and was fine as a patrol rifle. After purchasing it, I found out I bought the Bush Lady. Take away my man card after that. After shooting it, I love it! It's LIGHT and if you have to leave it hanging you can't hardly tell it's there. And the folks that have given me a ration for it being a "girl" gun always seem to quiet down after seeing it perform and understanding it wouldn't matter if the dern thing was PINK...It does the same job as their AR. My agency uses Bush/Colts so not quite sure why Bush is soooo hated by a bunch of folks on here??? Now I don't shoot 2K rounds a week or anything and I'm not a tourney shooter, I just love going in the back yard and shooting. Still after doing more research and visiting this forum before joining I am getting my 13 year old an AR. I am still not spending a ton, especially on his 1st AR, ohhhh and it's got a Bush upper. I consider it sorta like buying your kid a car. I am not going to buy a 30-40K car for my 16 year old un-experienced driver when a 6-10K vehicle will do the same (point A-to point B) although it won't be as fancy and all. I have seen the Big Dawg parts in the AR world and when I get my 300 BO done, I'll spend a little more change on it but just because you spend 3K on an AR, will it destroy something/someone any better then a 1K AR???

I love reading different threads and will learn alot from this forum, just like the other forums I belong too. I especially love the AR picture thread!!!! Gun porn at it's best!!!!!!:D
The actual name of the manufacturer of your AR is Bushmaster, not Bush. :suicide:

IYAAYASwarrior

03-06-12, 18:30

no to derail this one, but NICE avatar 45Auto :cool:

The_War_Wagon

03-06-12, 18:40

I reckon it boils down to, WHAT is a firearm FOR?

I have little ones with Autism; if Mugger T. Homeboy comes through a window at 3 in the morning, I don't plan on SHOWING him my rifle, with all it's whiz-bang geegaws on it - I plan on deploying it to repel ALL boarders!

I look at somebody like Iraqgunz - who has a COMPANY of men COUNTING on their rifles to perform at the moment of truth - and I put a LOT of stock into what HE has to say about quality rifle ingredients, care, & maintenance. His concern about the AR is different in TYPE, but identical in SUBSTANCE, as mine - keep those wielding it ALIVE, and make those opposing it, 'cease & desist.'

And if the AR is THE firearm you're going to grab, when it all goes south, "cutting corners" isn't even on my radar. Yeah, there's "mad money (I guess if you tried really hard, you COULD build a $3,000 Stag, equipped with the finest UTG, Leapers, & Barska have to offer :rolleyes: )," and there's "smart money," and I try to stick with the latter. For the MOST part though, money is the LEAST of my concerns, when it comes to acquiring/assembling an AR15. Quality FIRST - cost SECOND. If my family (& their lives!) can't COUNT/RELY on it, than what am I doing with it?!?! :confused:

GeorgiaBoy

03-06-12, 19:02

If your not going to put but a couple of magazines through your AR a year, and it will probably never have more than a couple thousand rounds through it, why would you NEED a more expensive gun if you KNOW that you will probably never bet your life on it, or actually shoot it much?

A lot of people know that Colt, DD, BCM, ect are of better quality, but they choose to save a couple hundred dollars because they don't have a reason to buy a more expensive quality build. Honestly I wouldn't blame them. It's like buying a 64GB iPad for $300 more than a 16GB, yet you KNOW you're never going to put but a couple of GB's worth of data on it.

On top of that, even if they person buying DOES actually reach a high round count, it could turn out that the cheaper AR may have been built with the batch tested bolt and barrel, and is actually of nearly equal quality of a known-good mfg.

duece71

03-06-12, 19:05

If someone could show me where to save money on say, a brand new Noveske (insert any Noveske rifle here) then I would be all for it and would use my credit card to buy it. :cool::happy:

Casull

03-06-12, 21:28

There's those who do not know there's a difference in quality, sure, and that is the worst part of it all; when a manufacturer takes away from the sales of a manufacturer who strives to make a really good product.

But there are also those who are smart enough to question price points. It's not stupid to think that maybe there's something of the same quality for a lesser price, or even that there's a better deal on the same item elsewhere. All of this is what makes the top tier market seek to be more efficient (both on the production and retailer's end). One may note that Colt isn't over-priced like it seemed to be before.

polymorpheous

03-07-12, 01:14

This thread reeks of TOS.

Can we please keep the technical forums technical?

ache_d

03-07-12, 01:51

Following the demand/supply curve is the "cheaper" approach. When buying quality (paying a bit more for a similar product) a consumer is, in textbook term, behaving irrationally.

Let's just all be "irrational" and let those who want to buy cheap be content with their pile of aluminum and quit worrying about their trash.

If someone wants to learn and demands quality - they will figure it out.
Others buy cheap because they don't know and don't care to research. Let em put a Tasco 3-9 x on their carry handles..... I just don't care about them - nor do they care about the platform.

No such thing as cheaper, that logic will get you in trouble.