View Full Version : Need an honest assessment about Kahrs
Hey all. As referenced in other threads, I used to have a Kahr but sold it, and am now considering moving back to it after cycling through numerous different guns trying to find a gun that fit my hand as well as the Kahr did. I had a K9, and to date, it is the ONLY gun I have ever held that fit my hand perfectly to a T, shot accurately with confidence, and didn't feel like I was cheating the trigger reach. Didn't feel like I was wondering where my finger would end up on the trigger after a reload, for example, or during a draw I wouldn't end up with too little finger on the trigger. The 1911 also fit well, but I did not like the kick of a .45.
What's stopping me is that it's not really meant to be used in any other roles apart from concealed carry. If I did buy it, it would be my go-to, all rounder, to be used in pretty much every role you can think of. My M&P currently fills that role. My chief concern is how the gun performs once it gets dirty from anything other than built up carbon from firing, like sand or dirt or water or what have you. It's entirely possible I might drop the gun during a draw or reload under stress (stranger things have happened) and I'd like to know it will still run. Am I correct in assuming a Kahr is like a 1911, in terms of maintenance and reliability? Thoughts?
P.S. I have tried holding or shooting pretty much every modern handgun in existence. I have tiny hands, so there are only a select few that fit me. DA/SA guns are out; can't reach the trigger in DA. This is why I am asking specifically about Kahrs and their use in any roles besides CC.
gtmtnbiker98
03-06-12, 18:35
I owned a PM45 for 33-days, once. Of those 33-days, Kahr had it in for warranty work 21 of those days. Needless to say, I sold the POS. I also owned a PM9, but later sold it. Didn't have any problems with it, just didn't quite care for the pistol after the PM45 debacle.
Mike from Texas
03-06-12, 18:41
I've got two of them, a PM9 and a P380. Both have been flawless for me. I also had a PM45 but traded it off for an iPad but it too was flawless.
I am guilty of not cleaning my PM9 nearly as often as I should and I pocket carry it every day. I've still never had a stoppage or failure of any kind.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I think you're over thinking this OP. You can "what if" yourself to death when looking for the perfect gun. You have an M&P should aliens invade and you need a tough gun. The Kahr will be fine for 99% of your carry needs, assuming you keep it clean and dry.
number1olddog
03-06-12, 19:14
Me personally, I can't really conceal certain weapons as easily as others (G19, PPS etc...) I used to conceal a 642 but a wheel gun in a SHTF scenario really makes me nervous in the event of a reload. You will hear some people say that Kahr's are POS's and some say that they are great. I finally broke down and bought a PM40 with galco concealable holster and have a galco pocket holster that I use on occasion. I carry two extra mags and my EDC knife and find this package the most comftorable. I have fired 400+ rounds through it so far and the only problem that I have had is a broken follower that Kahr took care of (slow shipping for the replacement follower however). The recoil sucks ass but I like .40's so this is my fault. It has been flawless so far, minus the broken follower but I trust this weapon completely. I usually find myself in and out of the house most often for short periods of time and for me the Kahr PM series to be the quickest to conceal for grab and go. YMMV.
I love the feel of the K9. Outstanding little pistol... for some. It was shooting it that drove me nuts. I never could get used to that insanely long trigger after growing up on Glocks and 1911s. I really wanted to like it, and I rent one periodically just to see if I can change my mind, but that hasn't happened yet.
Personally, I would not buy the polymer models. With the 9mm and 40mm versions I've shot, none shot well even in the hands of other (better) shooters and they've had durability issues since Day 1. I don't know why that is, but my experience mirrors that of a lot of other shooters around here. If you're getting a Kahr, get the steel versions.
-B
Kahr usually makes a pretty quality product, but they are hit and miss. I've heard they have some good customer service, so if you do have an issue they should make it right.
You probably will need a 2-300 round break in period before it runs as great as it should.
Tomahawk_Ghost
03-06-12, 22:43
I've had a PM9 since 2004. I carry it in a Mika pocket holster. When I first purchased the gun my brother-in-law and I put 200 rounds through it one evening. No problems. I shoot it some occasionally with my older carry ammo. Still no problems. It's accurate and conceals no matter what.
I get allergy shots every 3 weeks, I carry it to the doctor's office. I have a 6 and 3 year old. It's great if we go to the park, I don't have to worry about my shirt flying up, some soccer mom sees the gun and next thing you know a S.W.A.T. team is there. For Summer carry it's great.
That said my first choice is a Glock 22 or 27.
I love my CM9 and have about 500 rounds through it since I purchased it last fall. It has performed flawlessly, although I did have to tweak the recoil spring since it was binding on the guide rod. I also have a P380 which has performed flawlessly. With that being said, though, I really think it's hit or miss with Kahr.
I still prefer my G26 for its complete reliability and capacity. I've got about 2150 rounds through it and have never had any type of malfunction.
I had a Kahr MK40 that was flawless from day 1 and the only reason I traded it was because of the cost of .40 ammo. I wound up trading for a Glock G26. I currently own a Kahr PM9 which has also been flawless since day 1. My experience with the Kahrs I have owned has been very positive.
Beat Trash
03-07-12, 09:19
Hey all. As referenced in other threads, I used to have a Kahr but sold it, and am now considering moving back to it after cycling through numerous different guns trying to find a gun that fit my hand as well as the Kahr did. I had a K9, and to date, it is the ONLY gun I have ever held that fit my hand perfectly to a T, shot accurately with confidence, and didn't feel like I was cheating the trigger reach. Didn't feel like I was wondering where my finger would end up on the trigger after a reload, for example, or during a draw I wouldn't end up with too little finger on the trigger. The 1911 also fit well, but I did not like the kick of a .45.
What's stopping me is that it's not really meant to be used in any other roles apart from concealed carry. If I did buy it, it would be my go-to, all rounder, to be used in pretty much every role you can think of. My M&P currently fills that role. My chief concern is how the gun performs once it gets dirty from anything other than built up carbon from firing, like sand or dirt or water or what have you. It's entirely possible I might drop the gun during a draw or reload under stress (stranger things have happened) and I'd like to know it will still run. Am I correct in assuming a Kahr is like a 1911, in terms of maintenance and reliability? Thoughts?
P.S. I have tried holding or shooting pretty much every modern handgun in existence. I have tiny hands, so there are only a select few that fit me. DA/SA guns are out; can't reach the trigger in DA. This is why I am asking specifically about Kahrs and their use in any roles besides CC.
I think you'll have a hard time finding an answer to your question because, as you stated, these guns are designed and used for concealed carry. So they don't get dropped in the mud too often.
My only experience with a Kahr is a PM9 I've owned since 2005. And like others, the most it gets exposed to is a limited amount of pocket lint. But I don't think this is the type of abuse you are inquiring about.
I'm not sure about using a Kahr steel framed gun as the "do all" gun you're thinking of. I'd me more inclined to use the steel framed gun over one of their P series. If I did, I'd keep track of the round count on the recoil springs and change them out at the recommend intervals.
Is the M&P9 and/or the M&P9c too big for your hands even with the small grip insert? If not, then I'd stay with that.
Have you tried the Walther PPS 9mm? I bought one last summer. Short version is I'd use it over a Kahr as my one and only go-to gun.
Have you considered one of the 9mm 1911's?
I have a CW9 and I have shot it a lot. I tend to run guns pretty hard and to date my Kahr hasn't puked. But to be honest, I don't look at the gun as a do it all, durable, rugged, piece of equipment.
We have three Kahrs: a K9, a PM9, and a TP9.
The K9 was bought new in 2010 and has had 833 rds through it, all factory ammo. We've had the following stoppages: a premature slide lock with a 7 rd mag with Federal 147 HST ( P9HST2) at about rd 550-600, and a failure to eject with 8 rd mag with Win USA 115 gr FMJ at about rd 700-790. I noticed that the recoil spring seemed to have weakened at about rd 790 and replaced it with a Wolff 20 lb. spring (factory weight). That's two stoppages in 833 rds.
The PM9 was bought new in 2005 and has had 2180 rds through it, all factory ammo. In the first 750 rds or so we had about 40 instances of failure to return to battery, about 30 of these in the first 225 rds. Replaced the recoil spring assembly at rd 877, after being advised by a factory CS rep that the FTRB issue would be fixed with a new recoil spring assembly, and experienced no other stoppages until rd 1500 when I had another failure to return to battery. Had a nose down failure to feed at rd 1760 using an extended 7 rd mag on first rd of the mag, ammo unknown, used slide stop to release slide. Had a failure to return to battery at about rd 1800, mag and ammo not recorded. Shortly afterward I noticed peening on the outer top front of the chamber area of the barrel. Took it to a local gunsmith who sent it off to Kahr. Gun came back in a week with a new slide, barrel, mag catch, side panel (panel had lost its retaining screw at some point but was still in place), etc. Some PM9s from the same era as my gun were subject to a recall for peening issues; my gun was not in the serial number range of the recall but developed the peening issue just the same. Have put 363 rds through the gun since getting it back, with no stoppages. The gun shoots high with all 147 gr ammo that I've tried and most other weights as well, before and after going back to Kahr, about 3" high at 25 yds with Fed 147 gr HST. It will fail to feed most of the time if I try to load the chamber by pulling back on the slide and letting it go forward; it feeds better when using the slide stop to release the slide per Kahr's manual.
We also have a TP9 bought new in 2010. It has had 717 rds of factory ammo through it, with one stoppage: a premature slide lock at about rd 193 while firing Fed 147 gr HST (P9HST2). This could have been a break-in issue, based on the low round count when it happened.
These three Kahrs have proven to be less reliable than our two Walther PPS 9mm guns. We don't currently carry the Kahrs or use them as HD guns, either.
Do urself a favor and stay away from kahrs, I had one and will never buy another ever. It is very poorly made. Requires 200 rd break in, poor machining on the slide, the polymer looks like crap and made like crap.
Do urself a favor and stay away from kahrs, I had one and will never buy another ever. It is very poorly made. Requires 200 rd break in, poor machining on the slide, the polymer looks like crap and made like crap.
My observations are the opposite.
New CW9, currently has 390 rounds through it. No issues, no malfunctions, did NOT require any break in. It will chamber a round using the slide lock OR the sling shot method.
Is accurate as HELL up to 15 yards. Fit and finish is just fine for a 350 dollar weapon.
The machining is as clean or cleaner than anyone else on the market so im not sure specifically what you're talking about.
The same can be said of my buddies new production CM9, zero issues.
Can you elaborate on your statements?
eternal24k
03-07-12, 11:11
I know Ned Christiansen speaks highly of them:
I favor Kahrs. Many Kahr pistols exhibit such a high level of quality that you'd swear they were made in prewar Germany and just recently discovered in a secret warehouse-- but they are made here. I see them as desirable for their compactness, reliability, and great ergonomics; I feel they are definitely worth having, enhancing, and personalizing
I just purchased a CW9 to replace my G19 for summer/t-shirt weather. With 500 trouble free rounds downrange, I am very comfortable and confident with the reliability out of the box with it. It is an absolute dream to carry IWB (compared to the G19). One issue to note is the non-drop free magazines. The mag that came with the pistol would not drop free from the mag-well. There are a series of videos and threads online that discuss this topic. Basically the magazine flares (for lack of a better term) towards the feed lips. A gentle squeeze in a bench vise or channel lock pliers will correct the issue and allow for drop free magazines (without compromising feed/function).
In short, the pistol is awesome. Buy one.
Had a CM9 for a while - wife carried it most of the time and we both liked it. The factory recoil spring is TIGHT though, and the slide stop edges could cut glass...they really need to melt some of those edges better. But it functioned as intended. Comes from the factory with a polished feed ramp, I thought that was a nice touch.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/Technical%20and%20Parts/ed54300e.jpg
My M&P currently fills that role.
Here is kind of an extreme idea, but might work. The M&Ps can be fired without the back strap in place. You could do some kitchen table gun smithing, or better yet, send it to someone who works on plastic guns. Have them texture and recontour the back strap of the gun, without the plug thing in place. That would make it about as small as possible. You have to really commit to the gun at that point, but I think it may help out.
I have pur a few hundred rounds through my cw9.. It's been flawless. It's certainly not the very highest quality gun out there, but it runs well.
I'm on my iPhone it will be quick and short. Edges on slide needs work, but u have pm9 , but u can see the machining. Slide is a pain to take apart. Frame shows alot of imperfection, frame slide gets alot of wear, I know Theres metal in the front. Thickness is ruined by the thick slide stop. Magazines built very cheap. Weak aftermarket support. Expensive magazines. I'll type more later
My observations are the opposite.
New CW9, currently has 390 rounds through it. No issues, no malfunctions, did NOT require any break in. It will chamber a round using the slide lock OR the sling shot method.
Is accurate as HELL up to 15 yards. Fit and finish is just fine for a 350 dollar weapon.
The machining is as clean or cleaner than anyone else on the market so im not sure specifically what you're talking about.
The same can be said of my buddies new production CM9, zero issues.
Can you elaborate on your statements?
I'm on my iPhone it will be quick and short. Edges on slide needs work, but u have pm9 , but u can see the machining. Slide is a pain to take apart. Frame shows alot of imperfection, frame slide gets alot of wear, I know Theres metal in the front. Thickness is ruined by the thick slide stop. Magazines built very cheap. Weak aftermarket support. Expensive magazines. I'll type more later
I will be interested in hearing what you have to say as i disagree with almost everything you are writing.
I DO agree about the inconsistency in the magazines. Some of mine drop and some of mine do not.
The slide stop is going to be buried in any good holster so how exactly is that a problem? The grip thickness and slide thickness generally denotes how well the pistol can be carried.
The magazines are expensive for what they are but at 27.99 a pop its not TOO bad.
What kind of aftermarket support are you looking for? The PPS has almost ZERO aftermarket support yet that doesnt stop that gun from carrying its own weight.
I have a CW9, not a PM9.
Agree to disagree, it's my opinion, I owned HK, sigs, glocks , kimbers, and ruger.
I will be interested in hearing what you have to say as i disagree with almost everything you are writing.
I DO agree about the inconsistency in the magazines. Some of mine drop and some of mine do not.
The slide stop is going to be buried in any good holster so how exactly is that a problem? The grip thickness and slide thickness generally denotes how well the pistol can be carried.
The magazines are expensive for what they are but at 27.99 a pop its not TOO bad.
What kind of aftermarket support are you looking for? The PPS has almost ZERO aftermarket support yet that doesnt stop that gun from carrying its own weight.
I have a CW9, not a PM9.
As you said yourself, most if not all of the Kahr line was intended for conceal carry so I wouldn't expect it to take on the world. Why not buy the model you want and subject it to the type of tests that worry you? Only then will you really know.
My .02...
I work for an agency that used to issue P9s as concealed carry/ BUGs. I was issued one at the time. They all seemed to work well and the only issue I was aware of was a feed issue with Gold Dots that had wider bullets that would get stuck half-way up their steep feed ramps. Switching to Rangers solved that issue. It was probably 5-6 years ago when they were replaced with Glock 26 and 27s.
Fast forward to today...I know another officer who purchased a PM9 to carry as a BUG in the 09/10 time frame that had been absolutely reliable. It feeds practice and duty ammo reliably.
I purchased a PM9 towards the end of last year, 2011, and have had a nose-dive issue with Ranger RA9TA ammo. I sent it back to Kahr about a month ago. Kahr polished the feed ramp, polished the inside lobe of the slide stop, test fired it, and called it fixed. I got it back last Friday and took it to the range Monday. It continued to exhibit the nose-dive malfunction.
I emailed Kahr expressing my discontent with them and requesting to know what they are going to do to remedy this issue. I haven't received a reply.
It would seem that a certain number of Kahrs (across the board, all models, all calibers) have a nose-dive feed issue. I feel that it's magazine related. Ammo with round-shaped tips feed ok because the slide has enough velocity to force them up the feedramp. Ammo like Rangers with flat ogives get stuck at the bottom and the slide comes to a screeching halt.
Some guys on the Kahr Talk forums seem to have success using the extra-power magazine springs and recoil springs but I'm wanting Kahr to fix the issue without spending more money on the pistol for aftermarket accessories.
mkmckinley
03-07-12, 17:44
I've had a couple. The K40 I had five years ago had some itermittent ftf's. I never bothered to contact Kahr to have the issue resolved. It also had what I consider a machining defect where the slide didn't mate up with the frame in the rear. It had about 2mm of overhang. It was mostly cosmetic but didn't sit right on a pistol billed as being premium. I also never got ised to the trigger and the small grip never fit me well. I sold it and my Mk40 around the same time and haven't really been into Kahrs since. I'm consistently tempted by the P9 but haven't picked one up. The PPS seems to have a better trigger and track record but that's only based on my rentals, I don't own one.
I have 3 Kahrs, the 2 steel frame ones have been 100%% since day one. My PM9 had some issues initially but once it came back it has been 100% as well. They shoot great for me and are surprisingly accurate, especially considering their size. Glocks are my normal go to guns but for times I need smaller/thinner the Kahrs work well.
I bought a K9 a couple of years ago. Its never had a hiccup but its still a sub-thousand round gun at this point. Only minor issue I've had was the rear sight is just a wee bit loose in the dovetail and started to travel. Has not moved since I tapped it back. The pistol feels great and the machining is good. I've just never quite gotten use to the long (albeit very smooth) trigger pull and I cannot stand that factory sights (easy fix but never wanted to spend any more money on it). I guess part of the problem I've had with the gun and why I haven't shot it more is because I haven't been able to find a decent holster to conceal it. I've tried a Comp-tac C-tac and a Crossbreed holster and the thing prints worse then my full size 1911. This gun would get more attention from me if it had a shorter trigger takeup but it mostly just sits in the safe now.
My PM9 has been reliable. I don't have quite the confidence in it I would in say my G26 and it isn't a high rd count gun (~500rds).
I carry it occasionally, and consider it reliable for a small easily concealable gun.
I just gor a new PM9 a few weeks back and already have about 650 rounds though it. Mixture of FMJ/JHP ammo.
NO hickups, stoppages, malfs, ect...
Mine seems very precisly made, cleanly cut, polished, and put together.
I'm diggin it!
Drew
As I posted in other recent Kahr thread, I've had a PM9 for a while, nearly 1800 rds through it, only 4 total malfs when new due to me not reading manual and trying to slingshot the slide (you have to use the slide lock to drop the slide).
My PM9 is actually more accurate than two of my larger M&P 9's at 25 yards, which is surprising. It's far from a tack driver, but is extremely reliable, takes a variety of factory ammo, and I love the smooth consistent DAO trigger. Unlike a couple folks mentioned in the other thread, I've used mine with the 7rd factory mag with a grip extension, and have had no feed/reliability/mag-release issues.
I have no problem carrying mine when I want to carry a light single-stack rather than my M&P.
I continue to be satisfied with my P45, after going back to the factory when I first got it. Runs like a champ now. I've heard nothing but bad about the PM45 though. But most really short .45's are problematic.
I owned an MK40 and an MK9. Both Sucked! They were very unreliable. When they jammed it took tools to clear them. They may have fixed their issues but never again for me. Not even if it was free.
Bought a PM9 back in 06. Had trouble with it. Kahr "fixed" it and sent it back. Wasnt fixed so they took it back. They gave up on it and hgave me a brand new MK9. Worked great but sold it years later.
Fast forward today and I have a CW9. Has been great so far (under 1k rounds). As it will be carried and not shot like my Glocks, I trust it as a CCW.
Right now I have a PM9, an E9 and a K9.
The PM9 and E9 have never head a problem. 100% reliable. Both have polished feed ramps etc... and I keep both pretty clean and lubed. I bought them used and were already broken in.
I bought the K9 a few days ago. Put 100 rounds through it. Very accurate, nice shooting gun. Had 1 failure to extract out of the first 100 rounds. We'll see how it goes after break in.
I've never had an issue sling-shotting the slide on any of them. I think the ergos are great and they point very naturally. I think they handle recoil really well, for their size (especially the all metal ones. They're pretty hefty).
I picked up a used CW9 a while ago. Had some issues with rounds nosediving if you slingshot the slide, but if you manipulate the slide release instead it works better. Trigger feels like a nicely tuned double action revolver.
Since becoming more a holster whore, though, I've started carrying a double-stack pistol in situations where the Kahr would have gone. Small is good, but a superbly carried bigger gun isn't so bad either.
Anyhow, if you're looking at compact single stack 9's, Kahr should be on your short list.
Reagans Rascals
03-19-12, 00:32
I have heard more than a bakers dozen times through the grape vine that the polymer lowers on their weapons are disposable after so many rounds, and the numbers have varied from an exaggerated 200 to a conceivable 2000..... so after so many rounds you just throw the lower away and get a new one.... just seems like something I don't really feel like bothering with if it is indeed true... and thus I don't really feel like taking the time to bother with it in the first place...
another popular thing I have heard about them, is they are considered throw-down guns.... if you happen to have a bad shoot just throw down the Khar...
all things I have heard more than a few times from many different sources, not my own personal opinion... just things that float around
another popular thing I have heard about them, is they are considered throw-down guns.... if you happen to have a bad shoot just throw down the Khar...
all things I have heard more than a few times from many different sources, not my own personal opinion... just things that float around
Well, no matter how many times you heard that little jewel, they're all f'ckin' morons that said it.....
I currently have 2 a K9 ELITE and an MK9 both are all steel. the K9 has had a couple K thru it w/o any hiccups, the Mk not so many rds but trouble free. the k9 can and does hit an 8" plate at 50 yards if you can!! The trigger is like the smoothest S&W revolver....if you're a DA revolver guy transition is non existant!
Here's the rub and why many have differing opinions. the Elites have the shortest smoothest triggers the lower economy priced Kahrs such as the E9 and CW models, have a less refined trigger. Same with the eternal polising.....
in Kahrs and in many things in life, you get what you pay for!! While the lower priced kahrs may not have the greatest triggers or polishing.... in my experience and those around me, they "for the most part" always go bang!!
I had a PM9 5 years ago to replace a J frame and it wasn't reliable to my liking but it had some major shootability advances over the 642. My friend shot it without problems so he bought it from me. I figure it was the way I shot it.
I keep reading current positive threads and am fighting the urge to replace my LCR with a CM9. I might be a repeat of my last experience, especially if it's me limp wristing, and it might not. Hollow point feed ramp nose-dives are a major pain to deal with quickly.
I have heard more than a bakers dozen times through the grape vine that the polymer lowers on their weapons are disposable after so many rounds, and the numbers have varied from an exaggerated 200 to a conceivable 2000..... so after so many rounds you just throw the lower away and get a new one.... just seems like something I don't really feel like bothering with if it is indeed true... and thus I don't really feel like taking the time to bother with it in the first place...
another popular thing I have heard about them, is they are considered throw-down guns.... if you happen to have a bad shoot just throw down the Khar...
all things I have heard more than a few times from many different sources, not my own personal opinion... just things that float around
That is just irresponsible advice and borderline retarded if not full retard. Never go full retard.
If the thought of "throwing" a gun down even enters your mind you're already ****ed as YOU, the primary witness to the event are in doubt of its righteousness.
If you said that in jest...ok, but seriously, its bad form, especially on a public forum.
Lucky Strike
03-19-12, 11:01
Put the first 40 or so rounds through my brand new CM9. The thing ran flawlessly with factory winchester 115.
I really like it. Having actual sights in a gun this small is awesome. Trigger is long but so smooth. I got an RKBA IWB holster and the thing just disappears in either appendix or 4'oclock carry with just a tshirt.
Please please continue to run little Kahr.....I really want you to be my new daily CCW
I have heard more than a bakers dozen times through the grape vine that the polymer lowers on their weapons are disposable after so many rounds, and the numbers have varied from an exaggerated 200 to a conceivable 2000..... so after so many rounds you just throw the lower away and get a new one.... just seems like something I don't really feel like bothering with if it is indeed true... and thus I don't really feel like taking the time to bother with it in the first place...
another popular thing I have heard about them, is they are considered throw-down guns.... if you happen to have a bad shoot just throw down the Khar...
I've heard those kind of things said many a time about Kel-Tec... but not about Kahr.
I currently have 2 a K9 ELITE and an MK9 both are all steel. the K9 has had a couple K thru it w/o any hiccups, the Mk not so many rds but trouble free. the k9 can and does hit an 8" plate at 50 yards if you can!! The trigger is like the smoothest S&W revolver....if you're a DA revolver guy transition is non existant!
As an old DA revolver guy, that was exactly my experience. Felt very natural to me.
Reagans Rascals
03-19-12, 14:19
That is just irresponsible advice and borderline retarded if not full retard. Never go full retard.
If the thought of "throwing" a gun down even enters your mind you're already ****ed as YOU, the primary witness to the event are in doubt of its righteousness.
If you said that in jest...ok, but seriously, its bad form, especially on a public forum.
Like I originally stated, those are comments I have heard, not have thought myself...
whats bad form is continuing to use the word retard to castigate someones behavior, you are aware there are actual retarded persons correct? I suspect its rather disrespectful to use their condition as a pejorative descriptive of someone you think to be acting foolishly...
on a public forum nonetheless
As an old DA revolver guy, that was exactly my experience. Felt very natural to me.
As a tupperware afficionado, my Kahr makes me want to go out and try a quality DA wheelgun. Yeah, the trigger really is nice.
Like I originally stated, those are comments I have heard, not have thought myself...
whats bad form is continuing to use the word retard to castigate someones behavior, you are aware there are actual retarded persons correct? I suspect its rather disrespectful to use their condition as a pejorative descriptive of someone you think to be acting foolishly...
on a public forum nonetheless
Blame Hollywood for corrupting my brain and creating an unnecessarily harsh dialect in our nations youth, myself included. :)
In all seriousness, rather than debate context, the word is fitting to describe the people you are "hearing" this from and i stand by my earlier statement.
eternal24k
03-19-12, 17:12
Like I originally stated, those are comments I have heard, not have thought myself...
whats bad form is continuing to use the word retard to castigate someones behavior, you are aware there are actual retarded persons correct? I suspect its rather disrespectful to use their condition as a pejorative descriptive of someone you think to be acting foolishly...
on a public forum nonetheless
You are aware that many would argue that there are NOT "retarded persons"...But i do know of people who are "disabled" or have "special needs", so if you are so adamant about proper use of words as to not offend, I would shy away from calling them "retards".
Guns and other inanimate objects surely would not be nearly as offended .
Reagans Rascals
03-19-12, 17:28
You are aware that many would argue that there are NOT "retarded persons"...But i do know of people who are "disabled" or have "special needs", so if you are so adamant about proper use of words as to not offend, I would shy away from calling them "retards".
Guns and other inanimate objects surely would not be nearly as offended .
when "special needs" or "disabled" become codified within the DSM IV you might be correct... but for now.. there are such people as "retarded persons".... considering the term Retarded refers to condition and "special needs" and "disabled" refers to ability
if you need further clarification crack a book once in a while---
"DSM IV:
Mental Retardation
317 Mild mental retardation
318.0 Moderate mental retardation
318.1 Severe mental retardation
318.2 Profound mental retardation
319 Mental retardation, severity unspecified"
http://www.thearc.org/page.aspx?pid=2342
you do notice it doesn't say association of disabled or special needs citizens correct?
My word, retard, disabled, yadda-yadda will you grow up, pull your big girl panties out of your crack and leave this topic for what it was/is a discussion by grown-ups about Kahr pistols.
THANK YOU!!
eternal24k
03-19-12, 18:30
Fair enough, I currently work in public health field and the term is not accepted, and people still get a little touchy with "special needs".
Regardless, this thread has gone full retard and I am out
when "special needs" or "disabled" become codified within the DSM IV you might be correct... but for now.. there are such people as "retarded persons".... considering the term Retarded refers to condition and "special needs" and "disabled" refers to ability
if you need further clarification crack a book once in a while---
"DSM IV:
Mental Retardation
317 Mild mental retardation
318.0 Moderate mental retardation
318.1 Severe mental retardation
318.2 Profound mental retardation
319 Mental retardation, severity unspecified"
http://www.thearc.org/page.aspx?pid=2342
you do notice it doesn't say association of disabled or special needs citizens correct?
I've owned two Kahrs, and shot three others that belonged to close friends.
The first was an early K9. It was ok. Jammed a bit, but wasn't a carry gun, so I didn't care.
A few years later I got an MK9 for carry. It was very light, and recoil was a bit severe. No matter how I tried, I couldn't keep the front of the trigger guard from bashing my finger during recoil. This was an especially bad problem coming from shooting other 9mms to this one. I felt like I had to re-learn different trigger control for just this gun.
A couple years ago, my girlfriend bought a P45. She found the recoil of the Kahr to be unmanageable. Keep in mind that she loves shooting her full size 1911, so she's not a wimp by any means. I tried shooting it, and agreed with her. It's not a pleasant experience at all. I found the P45 to be quite punishing, and didn't lend itself well to rapid strings of fire.
I am also not a fan of the Kahr trigger, which while smooth, is quite long and very different from most any other gun. This issue is a matter of taste, however but it is something to consider.
KiloSierra
03-19-12, 19:57
I have a CW9. I haven't shot it much but I did have some jams with 147 gr jhp's. There's less then a sixteenth of an inch space in the magazine with them. What little 115/124 gr. ammo I've shot through it was flawless. Those weight rounds have much more space in the mags.
Out of pure curiosity - what would make a Kahr or KelTec any better a "throw down weapon" than any other firearm?
For whatever its worth - my wife works in Special Education. I think she'd get a write up - if not a suspension without pay - if she referred to any of her students as "retarded". Regardless of what any book says, that term hasnt been used in a long time.
For the record, I'm guilty of saying "full retard" all the time. To me, it's like South Park's definition of "fags" being douchebags and having nothing to do with sexual orientation.
I also don't care if someone calls something "gay", "retarded", talks about throw away guns, talks about throwing orange paint everywhere, modern torture techniques, etc. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes - and all that fun stuff. The first couple Ammendments are in order of importance in my opinion....
Back on topic - is there any truth to the frames beating themselves to death? I've been considering a Kahr but have been hearing mixed things as well.
Reagans Rascals
03-20-12, 00:10
Out of pure curiosity - what would make a Kahr or KelTec any better a "throw down weapon" than any other firearm?
I would assume a cheaper crappier gun would be preferred.... lower tier polymer guns such as a Khar or Kel-tec would fit that bill... shitty off-brand guns like Tanfoglio or other POS's
about the retarded thing... my main point was how can someone say I am gauche for saying I've heard Khars are throw-down guns "on a public forum"... yet its perfectly acceptable to throw out pejorative terms that as everyone here has stated are unacceptable... on a public forum in return... its rather hypocritical.... it may not seem offensive to you but its not your decision to make for what others find offensive.... the term "retarded" is used to describe a condition as in; I work with the mentally retarded... you wouldn't call them a retards... because that doesn't describe anything but your own ignorance....
lets leave full retard with simple jack..... thats all... back to the thread at hand
I would assume a cheaper crappier gun would be preferred.... lower tier polymer guns such as a Khar or Kel-tec would fit that bill... shitty off-brand guns like Tanfoglio or other POS's
about the retarded thing... my main point was how can someone say I am gauche for saying I've heard Khars are throw-down guns "on a public forum"... yet its perfectly acceptable to throw out pejorative terms that as everyone here has stated are unacceptable... on a public forum in return... its rather hypocritical.... it may not seem offensive to you but its not your decision to make for what others find offensive.... the term "retarded" is used to describe a condition as in; I work with the mentally retarded... you wouldn't call them a retards... because that doesn't describe anything but your own ignorance....
lets leave full retard with simple jack..... thats all... back to the thread at hand
Oh, gotcha. I didnt know if they had a weird rifling or something that threw off ballistics.
Nah, dude. If you see what i said above - I have no issues with what you or magsz said.
Leave full retard to Simple Jack?! But it muh-muh-muh-makes me happy...
another popular thing I have heard about them, is they are considered throw-down guns.... if you happen to have a bad shoot just throw down the Khar...
damn. why would you throw down a gun? I'd rather keep a shitty knife to throw away if I paid any attention to that. which I don't...
I have heard more than a bakers dozen times through the grape vine that the polymer lowers on their weapons are disposable after so many rounds, and the numbers have varied from an exaggerated 200 to a conceivable 2000..... so after so many rounds you just throw the lower away and get a new one.... just seems like something I don't really feel like bothering with if it is indeed true... and thus I don't really feel like taking the time to bother with it in the first place...
I call BS on that for alot of reasons, but I'll leave it at that.
I have about 4K+ through a P-9 and a board member over on ARFCOM/Kahrtalk has a claimed 30K+ through a PM-9. I've watched his round count claims steadly claim over several years and from all of his posts think his claims are fairly creadible. He is well versed on Kahr's.
As for the rest of the post.... I'm assuming the same advise came from the disposible frame crowd? BAD advise all around.
QuietShootr
03-20-12, 13:29
I think using the phrases "I have heard" or "I have read" here should result in an automatic week timeout.
Beat Trash
03-20-12, 15:00
I don't feel there is any credance to the Kahr P series frames having a short service life. I would recommend keeping track of the round count and replacing the recoil springs at the factory recommended intervals. But then I do this with my Glock 9mm's also.
I will admit that my PM9 is an example of a gun that is carried a lot more than it's shot.
I recently purchased a diamond black PM9 and added meps to it seperately here are my thoughts:
*Slide lock is stupid sharp. Its OK when dropping slide, but sucks locking slide.
*Magazines are the worst I have ever used. I have used many, many different brands, platforms, and caliber magazines otherwise. They load rough, are sharp, and don't feed consistently (info below).
*Very sensitive to limp wristing. The gun shot flawlessly for me, but my wife continued to have 2nd round FTF prior to a lot of practice firming her grip. Slide lock was always used to chamber first round. Totaled 197 rounds through the gun, possibly after 3 more rounds this will disappear.
*Gun shot flawlessly for me and the trigger is superb for a carry pistol, nice long clean breaking and boy is this gun accurate at SD range. I shot better with it than with my G19. Thats a story for another day. Hopefully sight issues there.
Reagans Rascals
03-20-12, 15:06
I think using the phrases "I have heard" or "I have read" here should result in an automatic week timeout.
because this entire forum is based solely on factual evidence correct?
things such as brand preference or personal taste have no basis here because they aren't fact correct?
this is a forum discussion, not a court room deposition
when people gather to discuss things, it is just that, a friendly conversation, not an explicitly 100% scientifically backed up factual debate
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