View Full Version : Spikes 14.5" Elite Midlength vs BCM 14.5" BHF Midlength?
So what do you think about these two uppers. I am trying to decide between the two:
1. Spikes 14.5" Elite Mid Length with DynaComp (FN hammer forged barrel) $599
Price includes: Standard BCG, Charging Handle, Handguards, Spikes Buffer
Total: $599
2. Bravo Company BFH 14.5" Mid Length with PWS FSC556 Compensator (gov't profile) $598
Need to add: BCG $139
Charging Handle $22
Hand Guards $35
H-Buffer $22
Total: $816
Looking for good technical (non-emotional) based opinions.
So what do you think about these two uppers. I am trying to decide between the two:
1. Spikes 14.5" Elite Mid Length with DynaComp (FN hammer forged barrel) $599
Price includes: Standard BCG, Charging Handle, Handguards, Spikes Buffer
Total: $599
2. Bravo Company BFH 14.5" Mid Length with PWS FSC556 Compensator (gov't profile) $598
Need to add: BCG $139
Charging Handle $22
Hand Guards $35
H-Buffer $22
Total: $816
Looking for good technical (non-emotional) based opinions.
Personally, I think I would go with the battlecomp over any of the MB's listed.
In this day and age where there are so many AR companies out there, you kind of need to look beyond price and realize which manufacturer has the most integrity, knowledge and professionalism.
C4
The battle comp puts the BCM upper way out of my price range
jonconsiglio
03-09-12, 09:11
Why do you need a brake? Is this a competition rifle? Get an A2 flash hider and add whatever brake you want later. If you're not sure what to get, don't go 14.5".
Like Grant said, I look at the company itself as well, I prefer BCM.
Why do you need a brake? Is this a competition rifle? Get an A2 flash hider and add whatever brake you want later. If you're not sure what to get, don't go 14.5".
Like Grant said, I look at the company itself as well, I prefer BCM.
He is in NY and has to have a MB.
C4
lethal dose
03-09-12, 09:30
First off, I would not consider a 14.5" with perm'd muzzle device. The weight and length savings are so insignificant that I would never give up the adaptability. If I had to go with a 14.5", I'd go with car gas, for sure. As far as ST vs BCM... I'd go BCM. I've given thought to spikes in the past, but knowing Paul, his level of knowledge, his level of integrity, and his business practices... the choice is clear. While ST may make an ok piece, they market a lot of snake oil and gimmicks... not to mention they're price gouging shysters. Get on YouTube and check out BCM videos and interviews with Paul. This is only a glimpse at how he does business.
This one's easy -- go BCM. Top quality and in the event that you ever need to use their customer service they will take care of you much better than Spike's will.
I get this question some times. Typically I refer to the sum up of this blog post: BCM vs. Spike's Tactical (click here!) (http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/18/bravo-company-mfg-vs-spikes-tactical/) :big_boss:
There's not much on the tech sheet to pull up on the two options that would reveal something special. Spike's is for some reason able to crank out those prices while offering something that is as good as it sounds.
I am yet to find someone who runs both the BCM and Spike's who says they would hesitate to purchase another Spike's or BCM rifle.
He is in NY and has to have a MB.
C4
I'm in the same boat and went with the BCM 14.5" middy's with perm attached FSC556's. It's great that BCM offers this option and the cost is very reasonable. If you wanted to save a couple bucks, go with the standard barrel instead of the BFH and save $90 there because I'm guessing the cost of shooting 15k-25k rounds of ammo would also be an issue.
Feel free to PM me if you need any specific advice on buying from BCM and staying compliant.
TangoSauce
03-09-12, 12:01
Personally, I think I would go with the battlecomp over any of the MB's listed.
This was my initial thought, not even which upper, lol.
The FSC556 is great when you're shooting...horrible if you're the guy in the next shooting lane over.
jonconsiglio
03-09-12, 13:00
He is in NY and has to have a MB.
C4
Well, that's what happens when I barely skim the opening post!
In that case, I'd certainly go with a BattleComp. I've had them on both SCARs (16 and 17) and one of my ARs. I prefer flash hiders but if I had to run a brake, that would be the one.
is this your first/only gun?
we always used to go back to the defining statement here - "mission drives the gear" - what is your intended purpose and use?
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say while I agree with the sentiment that "just as good as" is false ideology, "good enough" is valid...
so saying, I believe if this will be your first/only gun, it doesn't make sense to save money on less than the best. but, if you already have one that fits this role, then I believe it's OK to have others that are more in the "recreational/training" category, which Spikes (and others in the category like S&W, PSA, etc...) obviously is. just make sure they are set up as similarly as possible.
and we always used to say "use the money to buy more training and ammo". I think this appropriate in this case.
call me a heretic...
Canonshooter
03-09-12, 14:58
First off, I would not consider a 14.5" with perm'd muzzle device.
In the People's Socialist Republik of New York he has no choice - pinned brake or a non-threaded barrel regardless of barrel length. So, since it HAS to be pinned may as well go as short as you can!
Go BCM.
He may have been assuming the OP had the option of going 16" with any muzzle device. No idea, though. :big_boss:
I want the 14.5 inch barrel but need a muzzle brake.
Going with Bravo Company I could do the BattleComp but would have to compromise on the hammer forged barrel and get the standard instead. still deciding on that
Care to elaborate on your reasons for preferring the 14.5"? By the time you pin a longer muzzle device, you will only be saving about 1/2 inch anyways. You find MORE options at 16", and if you have your heart set on a midlength, you may be better served anyways. Other than that, all I will say is, I don't think there is much bang for the buck on a lot of options you list, such as Spikes buffer, fancy muzzle devices, or even the CHF barrels, unless you know you have a specific need for it. If you are worried about cost, but want top quality, then why not a basic 16" BCM middy upper with a A2 flashhider?
EDIT: didn't realize NY required a brake, my bad.
I have a fanatical devotion to Bravo Company, and the upper I got from them last week (my third so far) was flawless.
That being said, Spikes appears to put together a fantastic product also, though my experience with them is very limited.
For what I'm looking for in an AR though, Bravo Company is simply unbeatable.
TangoSauce
03-09-12, 15:59
The worst customer service I've ever received was from BCM, but I realize that's a can of worms on any gun forum.
:stop:
polymorpheous
03-09-12, 16:11
The worst customer service I've ever received was from BCM, but I realize that's a can of worms on any gun forum.
:stop:
This is not typical.
OP, Spikes pulled some shit during the 2008 rush.
Personally they won't get my hard earned dollar for it.
BCM is 20 minutes from my house.
Paul is an outgoing, friendly guy.
And BCM's barrels are outstanding.
What did they pull exactly? I'm just wanting to know so I know what the dislike is all about.
Also, I think if BCM were minuets from my house I would like them a lot more than I already do!
As far as Spikes, I don't approve of some of their business practices... That is important to me, BUT I will go out on a limb, and say Spikes is a decent product. I would put them on par with PSA or SW.
ABCDRR doesn't even come close.
BCM . I know that Colt and FN hold the TDP , but I believe that BCM meets the standard where applicable.
Paul says it best.
"We were going to build it exactly correct, no short cuts, the way it was supposed to be done, per print, cost be damned."
They are simply top tier, along with Colt, DD, Noveske, LMT. Are they worth the extra cash...yes, without a doubt.
The rest fall short, even Spikes, and SW. etc.
Unless I was a very experienced carbine shooter, with at least several classes under my belt, and really knew I wanted/needed a 14.5, I would not restrict myself up front to a particular brake. Get the 16, save and buy the best brake for you later.
Spikes has taken a BUNCH of flak here. They likely made a few bad judgment calls a few years back, and still take the heat for it. My son bought one of their uppers. He is a bit picky, had a pit in the bolt face, sent them a pic, and they gave him an RMA. 3 days later he had a new bolt. His upper looks VERY well made. Feed ramps are as good as I've seen on any M4. Barrel is FN - double chrome lined, blah blah. Seems great. And I haven't heard of a bad upper from them lately, and people seem fine with the lowers.
When I bought an upper, I went BCM LW Carbine. VERY nice upper - total quality, and the thing was reliable OTB with Wolf - split necks and all. I prefer BCM - but think that Spikes turns out a good product from what I've seen/read.
Evil Colt 6920
03-09-12, 16:32
I have a Spikes upper and it is a nice, quality upper. I have dealt with their customer service on issues not related to the upper and the experiene was pleasant. I do not own a BCM rifle but my next build will change that. I would choose BCM over Spikes. I believe its mostly branding and marketing that influence that choice the most for me. Spikes is for the zombie hunter crowd and BCM is for the more serious end user. Both companies deliver a quality product though. I dont think you will regret either choice.
My experience with Spike's is casual (how you define casual may vary by your lifestyle). I usually shoot Colt because that's what was good before BCM and LMT got out there with mil-spec options for me. However, I got a Spike's upper and slapped it on a TM lower. I was expecting terrible things with what everyone was saying about Spike's, but it turned out to do everything I needed it to whether it was in the dirt or not. I'm not sure I even think about the fact it's a Spike's. To that end, I think you can go to a carbine class or few without shedding a tear.
Where I'm confused is this shady business stuff and want to learn more.
I'm in want of a BCM and/or a Centurion simply 'cause I want one. BCM advertising is done right for the target consumer (me) and Centurion is something guys in my network talk about with much enthusiasm. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Spike's again given my current experience with the product itself.
Again, I want to know what they did.
TangoSauce
03-09-12, 16:40
This is not typical.
The people were good, the policies on exchange were not...
This literally just came to my door. 14.5'' Noveske Afghan. Vltor MUR. 12'' LaRue handguard. Thanks to Rainier for the excellent pin and weld on the BattleComp. This is my suggestion on 14.5'', but out of the two in the OP I'd probably go with BCM.
http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k596/TangoSauce/IMG00531-20120309-1433.jpg
Where I'm confused is this shady business stuff and want to learn more.
...
Again, I want to know what they did.
I NEVER read all the posts on this and never intend to because it would take 8 days to read it all.
Here is what I THINK:
1. Some folks are ticked that they raised their prices during the Pre-Obama scare too much to reap the benefits at the expense of buyers.
2. They touted Milspec, and did not respond well to requests for them to post their credentials - especially here. If I were a manufacturer trying to break into a market, I'd be careful of what I did on sites like this where people know their stuff, and what all the terms and specs mean.
Again, I've never heard of 'real' problems with the product. As with any smaller company, they had some supply/demand issues also.
nocomply25
03-09-12, 17:02
I am looking to get my hands on a BCM. I am actually selling things off to pick one of those up. I think you really cant go wrong with either choice and kind of comes down to personal preference. After all the things i have read and seen, its BCM all day for me.
Canonshooter
03-09-12, 17:08
Unless I was a very experienced carbine shooter, with at least several classes under my belt, and really knew I wanted/needed a 14.5, I would not restrict myself up front to a particular brake.
Good advice if he wasn't in New York.
In NY you get two choices;
1. A plain, unthreaded barrel
2. A barrel with a pinned brake
It makes no difference if the barrel is 10 inches long or 20 - if you want something other than a plain, unthreaded barrel it needs to be a pinned brake.
He will need to skip the bayo lug too.
A 14.5 with a pinned brake makes a lot of sense in NY because if he decides to sell the upper, he'll have interested takers in all states. This would not be as true for a 16" with a pinned brake.
A 14.5 with a pinned brake makes a lot of sense in NY because if he decides to sell the upper, he'll have interested takers in all states. This would not be as true for a 16" with a pinned brake.
Taken one step further, BCM offers the option to perm attach a brake (FSC or BC) on their 14.5" uppers, but not the 16" uppers. This gets you a top brake on a top quality upper without the hassle of searching around for a smith to do the work or rolling the dice with Bubba at your LGS. It's a PITA and added expense to purchase a post ban rifle, but there's no reason to limit your choices to the lower end stuff found in a typical LGS.
I realize there are guys in about 45 other states reading this right now and going, "wtf?", but that's the way it is here. :neo:
I own product from both spikes and psa...a complete spikes that I built the lower and a psa 20 inch upper I bought to try out as a proof of concept. That psa upper is in no way shape or form on the same level as spikes.[
QUOTE=Shiz;1253528]As far as Spikes, I don't approve of some of their business practices... That is important to me, BUT I will go out on a limb, and say Spikes is a decent product. I would put them on par with PSA or SW.
ABCDRR doesn't even come close.
BCM . I know that Colt and FN hold the TDP , but I believe that BCM meets the standard where applicable.
Paul says it best.
"We were going to build it exactly correct, no short cuts, the way it was supposed to be done, per print, cost be damned."
They are simply top tier, along with Colt, DD, Noveske, LMT. Are they worth the extra cash...yes, without a doubt.
The rest fall short, even Spikes, and SW. etc.[/QUOTE]
Good advice if he wasn't in New York.
In NY you get two choices;
1. A plain, unthreaded barrel
2. A barrel with a pinned brake
It makes no difference if the barrel is 10 inches long or 20 - if you want something other than a plain, unthreaded barrel it needs to be a pinned brake.
He will need to skip the bayo lug too.
A 14.5 with a pinned brake makes a lot of sense in NY because if he decides to sell the upper, he'll have interested takers in all states. This would not be as true for a 16" with a pinned brake.
Got it! Now I understand - sorry!
The worst customer service I've ever received was from BCM, but I realize that's a can of worms on any gun forum.
:stop:
Really? That is 100% not the norm.
C4
jonconsiglio
03-09-12, 20:46
Care to elaborate on your reasons for preferring the 14.5"? By the time you pin a longer muzzle device, you will only be saving about 1/2 inch anyways.
If you pin a 14.5" with an A2X, you still save 1.3" over a 16" with an A2, it is not only half an inch.
For people like me that run Surefire 212's, you save 1.5" since you'll use the same flash hider on both.
Now, I have a couple SBR'd lowers, so it matters little to me, but I don't see any issue with pinning if you know what you want. I don't know many shooters that change out muzzle devices that often, I know I don't, but I also know what works and what doesn't for me.
lethal dose
03-09-12, 20:53
the point of pinning a 1.5" device to a 14.5" barrel (if pinning one is your only option) makes sense, now that i look at it. it would be extremely easy to sell. since i don't have any personal experience with 14.5" barrels utilizing mid length gas systems, i'd do some research. i've gathered that they are a bit more unreliable then their carbine length gassed brothers.
jonconsiglio
03-09-12, 22:20
the point of pinning a 1.5" device to a 14.5" barrel (if pinning one is your only option) makes sense, now that i look at it. it would be extremely easy to sell. since i don't have any personal experience with 14.5" barrels utilizing mid length gas systems, i'd do some research. i've gathered that they are a bit more unreliable then their carbine length gassed brothers.
I like running 14.5" barrels. I'll take either a 14.5" or 16", but for whatever reason, I just prefer a 14.5" for general carbine use. Now, I'm running a BCM mid length on an SBR'd lower, but would have no concerns with pinning it since I don't plan on changing the hand guard or muzzle device.
This is my first 14.5" mid length at I run it pretty hard. It has never failed on me with the Vltor A5 I started with or the H buffer in a carbine RE I'm running now. When I eventually change the barrel out or buy another 14.5", I'd have no problem going with another mid length, nor would I mind a carbine gas system with a mil spec gas port.
Something has stood out to me though… The fact that Noveske and Centurion Arms (maybe more, these are the two I noticed) no longer list a 14.5" carbine but do list the 14.5" mid length. To me, that says that at least those two companies are very confident in their 14.5" mid lengths. Now, I know Noveske will still sell a 14.5" carbine, but for whatever reason, they've decided to offer the mid length as their primary 14.5".
Personally, if Monty (Centurion Arms) thinks it's good to go, to me that says a lot. If my BCM 14.5" mid length runs so well, I'd assume that the Centurion and Noveske will run just as well. I know they both use slightly larger gas ports than the BCM. I think Noveske recommends an H2 with their gas port while BCM recommends an H, if I'm not mistaken.
I've owned a couple SR15's and they always ran well. KAC said you could cut the barrel to 14.5" and it would still function reliably. They actually know offer a 14.5" that uses the same gas system, but I have no idea if the gas port is the same as the 16" or not.
So what do you think about these two uppers. I am trying to decide between the two:
1. Spikes 14.5" Elite Mid Length with DynaComp (FN hammer forged barrel) $599
Price includes: Standard BCG, Charging Handle, Handguards, Spikes Buffer
Total: $599
2. Bravo Company BFH 14.5" Mid Length with PWS FSC556 Compensator (gov't profile) $598
Need to add: BCG $139
Charging Handle $22
Hand Guards $35
H-Buffer $22
Total: $816
Looking for good technical (non-emotional) based opinions.
Who has the Spikes in stock? Spikes anything is difficult to find lately..
[QUOTE=DDamn;1253592]I own product from both spikes and psa...a complete spikes that I built the lower and a psa 20 inch upper I bought to try out as a proof of concept. That psa upper is in no way shape or form on the same level as spikes.[
How so? Curious as I just ordered a 14.7" PSA upper
I built my own upper using spikes parts. It does however have a BCM(well, Vltor)Gunfighter ch and BCM brand delta ring, barrel nut, weld spring and snap ring!;)
Battlecomp is so great im getting another. As far as the Dynacomp: I saw a Vuurwarpen blog review and although it works it is very loud and spits out fireballs.
That psa upper is in no way shape or form on the same level as spikes.[
Why? Show some data. Not disputing you, but it always helps to back up those claims with data and pics. I will say that some of the PSA feed ramps I have seen do not line up properly, but i have seen that in some spike also.
justin_247
03-10-12, 06:56
I want the 14.5 inch barrel but need a muzzle brake.
Going with Bravo Company I could do the BattleComp but would have to compromise on the hammer forged barrel and get the standard instead. still deciding on that
Sure you can!
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-14-5-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-14-bfh.htm
Just use the drop down menu and select the Battle Comp.
justin_247
03-10-12, 06:58
You can also get a 14.5" CHF upper from Daniel Defense with a pinned BattleComp here:
http://www.smartgunner.com/DanielDefenseURG.aspx
Funkenstein
03-10-12, 07:11
I did some research, listed in my custom build thread.
Noveske is actually a viable option for you, too.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lcmb-556&cat=137&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=
14.5"
-Pinned AAC Blackout
-Auto BCG
-Gunfighter Charging handle
All for $770
(It should go without saying that all their products are HP MP, shot peened and MPT bolt, etc.)
Problem is, they aren't in stock :mad:
There is also the MOE Skinny which comes with MOE handguards, choice of vortex or 51tooth blackout (pinned), and also comes with MBUIS for $860...also out of stock :mad:
You can also get a 14.5" CHF upper from Daniel Defense with a pinned BattleComp here:
http://www.smartgunner.com/DanielDefenseURG.aspx
There's a sticky here warning against that site. Have you had a good experience with them?
Why? Show some data. Not disputing you, but it always helps to back up those claims with data and pics. I will say that some of the PSA feed ramps I have seen do not line up properly, but i have seen that in some spike also.
I have taken the issue up with psa in a private fashion, so I will be brief. Improperly indexed flash hider...bolt was in backwards..also the above mentioned feed ramps...although it is barely discern able. Psa offered to have it sent back and they would take care of it, it was not needed, I took care of it myself. It was like whomever put it together just didn't give a damn and it showed.
And in the meantime my spikes has happily churned thru about 3500-4000 rounds. Maybe more..I stopped counting a year ago. And I'm sure there are thousands of bcm guns that do the same.
I have taken the issue up with psa in a private fashion, so I will be brief. Improperly indexed flash hider...bolt was in backwards..also the above mentioned feed ramps...although it is barely discern able. Psa offered to have it sent back and they would take care of it, it was not needed, I took care of it myself. It was like whomever put it together just didn't give a damn and it showed.
And in the meantime my spikes has happily churned thru about 3500-4000 rounds. Maybe more..I stopped counting a year ago. And I'm sure there are thousands of bcm guns that do the same.
How does one insert a bolt backwards?
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
My BCM CHF midlength with same comp and 12" DD lite rail just came in and it is a beauty definitely recommend BCM
How does one insert a bolt backwards?
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My thoughts also.
How does one insert a bolt backwards?
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Take the bolt out of the carrier, turn it 180 degrees, put it back in and resemble. That is how the gun was sent to me.
Take the bolt out of the carrier, turn it 180 degrees, put it back in and resemble. That is how the gun was sent to me.
The cam pin will only fit the bolt on one side to prevent this from happening. Any other non truths or exaggeration you would like to add to the discussion?
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Actually that is incorrect. If the cam pin hole is machined wrong then it could happen. As a matter of fact some members here have in fact had such issues. Though they are rare.
The cam pin will only fit the bolt on one side to prevent this from happening. Any other non truths or exaggeration you would like to add to the discussion?
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The cam pin will only fit the bolt on one side to prevent this from happening. Any other non truths or exaggeration you would like to add to the discussion?
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It is sitting on my desk exactly as described. Settle down, I'll get pics up to satiate you.
The cam pin will only fit the bolt on one side to prevent this from happening. Any other non truths or exaggeration you would like to add to the discussion?
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If the bolt is manufactured incorrectly it is possible to assemble the rifle with the bolt backwards.
Well my apologies as I have never encountered one like that
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http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/2131/013lu.jpg
By ddamn138 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/ddamn138) at 2012-03-10
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8357/010djx.jpg
By ddamn138 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/ddamn138) at 2012-03-10
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7554/011vq.jpg
By ddamn138 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/ddamn138) at 2012-03-10
photos of screwed up stuff
Just cut a hole on the left side of the receiver, you'll be fine.
inthebush50
03-21-12, 10:37
some psa hating here lol. Didnt read all of this but have to say my psa is just as good as my first build which was bcm. Actually the 14.7 chf lw psa fn barrel was more accurate than my bcm was. My builds from now on will be psa parts, had great experience with their cs team and response times. Hell they even personally called me twice!
some psa hating here lol. Didnt read all of this but have to say my psa is just as good as my first build which was bcm. Actually the 14.7 chf lw psa fn barrel was more accurate than my bcm was. My builds from now on will be psa parts, had great experience with their cs team and response times. Hell they even personally called me twice!
So you didn't read all the details but you are sure your small sample disproves the problems you didn't read?
And you have had to contact psa customer support quite a bit? To the extent that they called you back twice? Usually that is a bad sign. For example, "My kia 4 door is far superior to your BMW. Every time it breaks down the kia dealer is fast to fix it. Sometimes they even come tow it in for me!".
Those two things do more to make me never buy PSA than encourage me to get a psa.
Buy once, cry once. If you can't afford the extra $100 for the comp you want, you won't be able to feed it ammo either (unless it's just going to sit in your closet). The gun is always the cheapest part of any platform, so get what you want, even if you have to wait a few months or sell some blood. Ammo is ALWAYS the expensive part. You will realize this when you make ammo orders (or component orders if you reload) that cost more than your rifle.. and several times a year.
TangoSauce
03-21-12, 11:31
some psa hating here lol. Didnt read all of this but have to say my psa is just as good as my first build which was bcm. Actually the 14.7 chf lw psa fn barrel was more accurate than my bcm was. My builds from now on will be psa parts, had great experience with their cs team and response times. Hell they even personally called me twice!
I had a Bushmaster upper that would outshoot my BCM any day of the week. Your comment doesn't sound so shocking to some of us.
:p
inthebush50
03-21-12, 11:35
Guess i should have skimmed so fast. But to the calling me personally post. They called because i emailed requesting that. I just had some general questions and actually wanted to speak to a rep. Because at the time there phones had an automated deal going on due to volume of buisness. But to personally call was great! When i first built my bcm i waited a week to get a reply to my question about a military discount. But thats fine because im sure they are busy as shit too! Either company is stellar in my opinion but so far bang for the buck goes to my psa. But to add to that. Time will tell on the psa. I know people with multiple thousands through bcm without a hitch. I dont know anyone personally thats done that with palmetto.
brzusa.1911
03-21-12, 12:04
There is a discussion on TOS about BCM 14.5" not really being 14.5" but anywhere around 14.6" and 14.7"
I would go DD or PSA.
Funkenstein
03-21-12, 12:24
some psa hating here lol. Didnt read all of this but have to say my psa is just as good as my first build which was bcm. Actually the 14.7 chf lw psa fn barrel was more accurate than my bcm was. My builds from now on will be psa parts, had great experience with their cs team and response times. Hell they even personally called me twice!
That's weird because I had horrible CS with them. Ordered a LPK, got the "Thank you for your order" page but not email. I emailed them and it took them 3 days to get back to me. Their email said "I have nothing from your name or card. I don't know what happened." So I look at the item I ordered and it is now out of stock and definitely wasn't when I ordered earlier that week...
I am new to the forum, but wanted to give my two cents regarding Spikes vs BCM. I am in the process of doing my second AR build and I too was in between 4 brands (BCM, Spikes, Daniel Defense & PSA). BCM has my initial preference because it is overwhelming how many good things I hear about their products. However, I wanted the hammer forged version (16 inch mid for my build) and that put the cost way up. Then I looked at spikes. Their products seemed very nice and most people had good things to say. I found many good deals on Spikes with one little problem....not in stock anywhere...and...the wait was several weeks (Spikes is soo backed up they don't even give you a time estimate). Then, I heard of a company called smartgunner that sells Daniel Defense uppers. I checked it and the prices were great. The problem....too many bad reviews regarding shipping and difficulty to get in touch with the company's rep. I heard it has gotten better, but I really did not want to take a chance and wait forever for my product. Lastly, I checked PSA. They had good prices, but they also had mixed reviews regarding their uppers and the shipping. So, what was my decision?....I went with BCM. I decided that getting a great product with super fast shipping and great customer service deserved a little higher premium from my pocket (For what you get, BCM is actually a bargain). I ordered my upper, charging handle and BCG on Sunday at 11 PM and they shipped it the next Monday...WOW. Amazing for a company with so many orders. My upper is scheduled to be here tomorrow Friday according to UPS....less than a week! One thing I would like to add is that I have dealt with PSA in the past and I have had a great experience with their products, customer service and shipping. However, I have not ordered upper receivers from them and those seem to be the one product that they take a little longer. On my next build I will use them just to check them out (funds permitting). It is just that with BCM you know for sure all your expectations will be met no matter what. Sorry for the long post.
What did they pull exactly? I'm just wanting to know so I know what the dislike is all about.
Also, I think if BCM were minuets from my house I would like them a lot more than I already do!
Just ordered the BCM 14.5" mid length w/ VTAC TRX 11" handguard, and pinned PWS FSC556 Tactical Compensator. What's the problem with a 14.5 and mid length gas system? From what I've heard it's the way to go.
Nothing should be wrong with it. I can elaborate on why people prefer more dwell time in front of the gas block, but I can also say why people prefer less. BCM tends to do things properly when it comes to gas port sizing and such. All in all, you should be good to go.
Bizzarolibe
04-16-12, 15:54
...but, if you already have one that fits this role, then I believe it's OK to have others that are more in the "recreational/training" category, which Spikes (and others in the category like S&W, PSA, etc...) obviously is. just make sure they are set up as similarly as possible.
and we always used to say "use the money to buy more training and ammo". I think this appropriate in this case.
call me a heretic...
I'm gonna have to call you on this one. There is quite literally nothing BCM does that Spikes does not also do regarding anything other than the 'peripherals' (i.e., rail systems, muzzle devices, etc.). I think BCM is a great company and have owned some of their products in the past, but the build quality and attention to detail on the Spikes is pretty much identical (if not slightly better in a few cases--i.e., melonited gas tubes, which definitely aren't a big deal, but it's a nice perk IMO).
In any case, I actually own a Spikes 'Elite' CHF 14.5" upper, although mine has the pinned Vortex FH. This thing eats up underpowered Wolf like candy. I'm also a big fan of that barrel profile. In any case, I have yet to experience a malfunction with it, although I have had fewer than 1,000 rounds through it (I've only had it for a few months).
My other Spikes rifle--one of their middy LE models--also has yet to mess up on me. It's been 100% reliable. But as has already been mentioned, BCM offers a top-quality product, so regardless of which one you choose...you win :D
While Spikes has a good reputation I cannot say enough about my dealings with BCM. In most cases if they sell it and I need it, thats where i go.
Sometimes it comes down to that for me.
I'm gonna have to call you on this one. There is quite literally nothing BCM does that Spikes does not also do regarding anything other than the 'peripherals' (i.e., rail systems, muzzle devices, etc.). I think BCM is a great company and have owned some of their products in the past, but the build quality and attention to detail on the Spikes is pretty much identical (if not slightly better in a few cases--i.e., melonited gas tubes, which definitely aren't a big deal, but it's a nice perk IMO).
What you mean, those black gas tubes? Spikes will do anything in black to make their part look "cool". I don't think it has anything to do with quality, that's for sure. BCM has far better quality control, customer service, and generally anything with the BCM name on it is golden, while Spikes is a bunch of snake-oil gimmicks that put pictures of The Punisher on their parts.
Spikes is very good for the money paid and I'd take a Spikes over PSA any day but they generally have more issues popping up than BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske, and LMT.
Bizzarolibe
04-17-12, 17:20
What you mean, those black gas tubes? Spikes will do anything in black to make their part look "cool". I don't think it has anything to do with quality, that's for sure. BCM has far better quality control, customer service, and generally anything with the BCM name on it is golden, while Spikes is a bunch of snake-oil gimmicks that put pictures of The Punisher on their parts.
Spikes is very good for the money paid and I'd take a Spikes over PSA any day but they generally have more issues popping up than BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske, and LMT.
Those 'black gas tubes' are coated in melonite and have been shown to tolerate the heat from sustained fire better than the standard gas tubes. They are also more resistant to corrosion. There's nothing 'snake-oily' about that, although it is admittedly a very, very minor enhancement. I for one don't have any problem with AR companies thinking of ways to improve the platform, even if the improvements are minor, and especially when they come at little to no cost to the consumer (as in the case of these gas tubes).
In any case, I'd challenge you to show how any part or component on a standard (non-railed) BCM upper is objectively superior to any part or component on the upper we're talking about (i.e., higher grade of steel for cerain parts, better QC procedures, etc.). And please, none of this nonsense regarding stupid logos; they have absolutely nothing to do with the functionality of a rifle. I wouldn't care if my rifle was covered in engraved bunny rabbits as long as it was a quality rifle.
Trust me when I say I'm not brand myopic; I own (and have owned) firearms (including AR's) from many different companies, and I certainly don't think Spikes is always the right choice. But, I don't see any objective reason to place them in a category distinct from other top-quality AR producers. I personally couldn't care less what a company did 4 years ago. Call me a pragmatist, but I care only about the quality/money ratio of the product I am considering. And that's all I will say on the issue.
I just received an e-mail from BCM that my order has shipped. Does anyone know how long the shipping usually takes. I live in Kentucky if that helps. Also I would like to thank everyone on this site that help me make the decision to go with BCM. I've always been aware of the company but had no idea that they were so top tier.
I will be mating the upper to my M&P 15 lower until I order the BCM lower. My M&P 15T has served me well with no malfunction of any type. I would definitely recommend the 15T to anyone looking for a recreational AR-15, they would probably hold up to even more then recreation....I don't know....wouldn't stake my life on it.
I ordered my upper with the VTAC TRX 11". I ask BCM to replace it with a 13" TRX but it was a no go (no custom build). I will probably replace the 11 with a 13 myself. Would it be possible to trade for a 13" with any company? Has anyone ever done that? I would like to see some pics of a VTAC TRX 13" on a 14.5 if anyone can direct me to one. Thanks for any help.
We don't need Facebook-ish posts that you have bought xxx upper and now it is shipping. In addition how do you expect us to know when you will get it? We don't work for UPS or the USPS. Those two methods are the most commonly used.
When I order anything from the east coast or mid west it seems to take at least 5 days via UPS. When I get stuff USPS priority mail then it is usually 2-4 days.
I just received an e-mail from BCM that my order has shipped. Does anyone know how long the shipping usually takes. I live in Kentucky if that helps. Also I would like to thank everyone on this site that help me make the decision to go with BCM. I've always been aware of the company but had no idea that they were so top tier.
I will be mating the upper to my M&P 15 lower until I order the BCM lower. My M&P 15T has served me well with no malfunction of any type. I would definitely recommend the 15T to anyone looking for a recreational AR-15, they would probably hold up to even more then recreation....I don't know....wouldn't stake my life on it.
I ordered my upper with the VTAC TRX 11". I ask BCM to replace it with a 13" TRX but it was a no go (no custom build). I will probably replace the 11 with a 13 myself. Would it be possible to trade for a 13" with any company? Has anyone ever done that? I would like to see some pics of a VTAC TRX 13" on a 14.5 if anyone can direct me to one. Thanks for any help.
We don't need Facebook-ish posts that you have bought xxx upper and now it is shipping. In addition how do you expect us to know when you will get it? We don't work for UPS or the USPS. Those two methods are the most commonly used.
When I order anything from the east coast or mid west it seems to take at least 5 days via UPS. When I get stuff USPS priority mail then it is usually 2-4 days.
I 've read post were people have ordered BCM uppers and stated x ammount of time for delivery. I was wondering if anyone had ordered and received in my area and time it took because I'm leaving for vacation and would like to get before I go. I had to order when I did before it went out of stock again. Sorry if my post offended you, I should have been more specific. Thanks
We don't need Facebook-ish posts that you have bought xxx upper and now it is shipping. In addition how do you expect us to know when you will get it? We don't work for UPS or the USPS. Those two methods are the most commonly used.
When I order anything from the east coast or mid west it seems to take at least 5 days via UPS. When I get stuff USPS priority mail then it is usually 2-4 days.
Are you the m4carbine.net cop or something....damn. Take a break from the computer and shoot your rifle to let off some steam. Its easy to just over look or just don't reply to another post. You must be busy going through all the forums and pointing out the bad post.
Yes he actually is the www. m4 cop check the red mod designation
To keep a sensible environment, to retain persons which are capable of informed discussions, some policing is necessary.
IE twitter-esq crap not desired
IE qualify ones statements. Such as before making proclamations, declaring widget A is better than widget B, describe the technical merits.
Otherwise you get "smart flight" where meaningful contributors bail
It's best to let it go. I'm on other threads now. Thanks though.
I'm new, try to cut me some slack. Sorry for everything, i'll be more careful with my post from now on.
vicious_cb
04-17-12, 20:20
Those 'black gas tubes' are coated in melonite and have been shown to tolerate the heat from sustained fire better than the standard gas tubes. They are also more resistant to corrosion. There's nothing 'snake-oily' about that, although it is admittedly a very, very minor enhancement. I for one don't have any problem with AR companies thinking of ways to improve the platform, even if the improvements are minor, and especially when they come at little to no cost to the consumer (as in the case of these gas tubes).
Considering gas tubes are stainless and meloniting stainless can actually decrease corrosion resistance, I fail to see where there's an improvement over the standard gas tube.
Those 'black gas tubes' are coated in melonite and have been shown to tolerate the heat from sustained fire better than the standard gas tubes. They are also more resistant to corrosion.
Can you substantiate this?
Is Spikes even in the same ball park as BCM. I doubt a melonite gas tube is going to cause anyone to give Spikes the nod.
Spikes stuff is so hard to get I am not sure you can even compare them to BCM or PSA.
Those 'black gas tubes' are coated in melonite and have been shown to tolerate the heat from sustained fire better than the standard gas tubes. They are also more resistant to corrosion.
I'd like to see the testing on this. Do you have a link in relation to it?
PalmettoStateArmory
04-18-12, 09:17
I have taken the issue up with psa in a private fashion, so I will be brief. Improperly indexed flash hider...bolt was in backwards..also the above mentioned feed ramps...although it is barely discern able. Psa offered to have it sent back and they would take care of it, it was not needed, I took care of it myself. It was like whomever put it together just didn't give a damn and it showed.
And in the meantime my spikes has happily churned thru about 3500-4000 rounds. Maybe more..I stopped counting a year ago. And I'm sure there are thousands of bcm guns that do the same.
Every complete upper is test fired with the BCG it ships with as one of the final QC checks. We keep QC records for each upper that leaves our facility. CS was not able to find any records of you contacting them.
Every complete upper is test fired with the BCG it ships with as one of the final QC checks. We keep QC records for each upper that leaves our facility. CS was not able to find any records of you contacting them.
I don't doubt that this is the policy of PSA. However there have been enough cases of unusable weapons making it out the door to worry people. For instance the ones we have seen with the incorrect gas tube installed.
I don't have the dislike for PSA that many do. In fact I hope to see you all become the next BCM or Daniel Defense. We need more high quality companies.
However there are still some issues that need to be resolved.
Eurodriver
04-18-12, 10:11
I don't doubt that this is the policy of PSA. However there have been enough cases of unusable weapons making it out the door to worry people. For instance the ones we have seen with the incorrect gas tube installed.
I don't have the dislike for PSA that many do. In fact I hope to see you all become the next BCM or Daniel Defense. We need more high quality companies.
However there are still some issues that need to be resolved.
Thank you. Its not a slam against PSA at all - if BCM or Noveske or Daniel Defense put out uppers with carbine length gas tubes in midlength rifles, I would be skeptical of ordering from them too.
I don't doubt that this is the policy of PSA. However there have been enough cases of unusable weapons making it out the door to worry people. For instance the ones we have seen with the incorrect gas tube installed.
I don't have the dislike for PSA that many do. In fact I hope to see you all become the next BCM or Daniel Defense. We need more high quality companies.
However there are still some issues that need to be resolved.
It does make one wonder how wrong gas tubes and mis-timed barrel extensions get out the door, doesn't it?
It does make one wonder how wrong gas tubes and mis-timed barrel extensions get out the door, doesn't it?
Actually I don't wonder at all. Lazy people. Every company has them. There is no way to avoid it sadly. It bit PSA in the ass and they are still recovering from it. That is just how it is. They need to show that they have fixed things. Once they have then hopefully this will all be a thing of the past. However it will take active work on their part.
Companies like Bushmaster and DPMS have a long history of showing they don't give a damn. PSA is much newer to the market and still has a chance to show otherwise.
Bizzarolibe
04-18-12, 11:38
I'd like to see the testing on this. Do you have a link in relation to it?
For one, there are plenty of accounts of gas tubes exhibiting signs of corrosion. I won't provide links here; Google it on your own time. Second, I have yet to hear of melonite gas tube corroding (admittedly, this doesn't mean much; there simply aren't that many melonite gas tubes out there).
Regardless, it has been shown that the melonite treatment (as well as other nitrocarburizing processes) does increase the hardness and corrosion resistance of many ferrous metals, including stainless steel(1). It is also well known that the variety of stainless steel used in the production of gas tubes will lose its corrosion resistant properties if heated to over 425 C: "304H will become sensitised in the temperature range of 425-860°C(2)." It should be noted that 304H contains even more carbon than regular 304, but I’m giving the SS gas tubes the benefit of the doubt here.
In addition, Melonite is much harder than 304 stainless steel. 304 (all varieties) has a Rockwell C hardness rating of 12, compared to Melonite’s 70 (assuming I did my conversion right—304 stainless is rated on the ‘B’ scale, whereas Melonite is rated on the ‘C’ scale). And while this source is certainly somewhat biased, Spikes Tactical has claimed that stainless steel gas tubes exhibited signs of warping when subjected to sustained fire, whereas Melonited gas tubes that were subjected to the same conditions did not.
So yeah, all I’m really getting at is that there is good evidence to suggest that the Melonite treatment enhances the properties of stainless steel, and these enhancements can certainly be relevant with respect to the gas tube considering the heat that this particular part has to endure. But I doubt any of this will matter to those who have already made up their minds. And as I've already said, the chances that these benefits will ever come into play are somewhat small, as most people will never heat up a gas tube to the point where it either warps or loses its corrosion resistant properties.
1 http://mcna.bodycote.com/resources/5898_BNA%20Melonite%20Rev%201_0.pdf
2 http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=965
More links:
Melonite corrosion resistance: http://www.burlingtoneng.com/corrosion_resistance.html
General information: http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/09/13/metal-finishes-and-treatments-part-2-melonite-and-spray-on-finishes/
Thanks for the information on Melonite. 425-860°C = 788-1580F. I can't seems to find any information on how hot a standard gas tube gets, but oh well. Thanks for the information.
Actually I don't wonder at all. Lazy people. Every company has them. There is no way to avoid it sadly. It bit PSA in the ass and they are still recovering from it. That is just how it is. They need to show that they have fixed things. Once they have then hopefully this will all be a thing of the past. However it will take active work on their part.
Companies like Bushmaster and DPMS have a long history of showing they don't give a damn. PSA is much newer to the market and still has a chance to show otherwise.
But here's the thing, if the gun was actually test-fired, it wouldn't have functioned. So what happened? That's what I wonder about.
I won't provide links here;
why not?
Google it on your own time.
I did. I think that maybe answers my first question.
I am closing this thread. Quite simply because it has gone on about a month and if the OP can't make a choice by now, he was probably blowing smoke to begin with.
This also isn't about PSA, GSA or the USA. It was Spike's vs. BCM which is quite silly itself as are most of the Godzilla vs. Mothra threads.
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