View Full Version : Are todays handguns Really as bad as we may think? Also recommendation for moderators
I have noticed a rather large influx in reports of brand X having quality control issues and reliability issues that have spiked. Brand X can be Glock, Sig, HK, S&W, you name it. I often joke with other shooters that "they don't make hand guns like they used to." But I am concerned at how accurate that statement is anymore. For example... We can agree that although older firearms can (depending on manufacturer and model) be great guns (p38, 1911, Browning Hi Power, ect.) they were lacking on good sights, maybe triggers, feeding some types of ammo from time to time) However much of our gripes were of a cosmetic issue (grips, stippled or checkered front or back strap, finish, ect)
We have had Glocks, Sigs, HK's, S&W M&P's for quite a while and now these "quality handguns" are all the sudden having accuracy, durability, or reliability issues. I am curious as to if we are starting to ask too much accuracy from a stock pistol? Rather than just do what we used to do and get higher quality parts and modify them as we did in the past or have a gunsmith modify them. Or is this a training issue as to many are used to one platform over another? As far as durability that is one I am most concerned which to me combined with reliability is the bread and butter of a purchase. One can modify a firearm with triggers, sights, barrels, and loads to get better accuracy as has been proven time and time again since we were all kids watching the competitions. But if it wont work out the gate or breaks well inside what it expected life span is projected as this is a NO GO. Or if it starts out fine and goes to crap quickly...
With all the posts I see I wonder is the "problem" the guns themselves or constant reposts from other forums? Friend of a friend who knew a guy posts? I saw this on you tube stuff? I am trying to understand this stuff.
I would appreciate it if you guys whom I consider knowledgable would help me figure out this trend. Also a recommendation for the moderators. If someone is posting "results" "reviews" or "problems" with a firearm I think it would be great to require disclosure of previous posting on other forums to include the posters log on name if possible otherwise delete it. If it is not first hand knowledge or repost from a third party then I think it would be fair to refer to it but not repost on here. This can clear up alot of confusion and get down to if it is specific guns or lines/models of guns. Just my two cents.
Heavy Metal
03-09-12, 09:19
I am wondering if some of the problems with the Glocks is an attempt to increase production to meet the insane increase in market demand?
I didn't know HK was suffering from the same issues as Glock, M&P, and Sigs.
I think HK is the only manufacturer that has been consistent with their QC than any of the other brands you mentioned in your post.
The problem is that 4 out of 5 times on a prefect functioning gun. You will never hear about it. On the flip side 4 out of 5 times on that someone gets a problematic gun you are going to hear about it because it is human nature. Whether it be asking questions on how to fix it, what causes it, or just venting anger. When it works right there's no question like this to ask or venting to be done.
Anything that sells is mass numbers is going to have more attention to what problems it has... Regardless of the product. It's a numbers game.
I'm not saying that some guns havent gotten worse. IMO glock and kimber have gone significantly from the quality of the past and that's just two examples.
M&P on the other hand I feel has continued to get better. Sure there are some outstanding issues with certain calibers, but it is a gun that has come a LONG way in improvements over the past few years... Not backwards IMO(and yes I'm biased. If you don't like sorry lol)
Bottom line is the more a product sells, the more you will hear about problems, while at the same time there are probably just as many people NOT having problems you just don't hear about it because there is nothing to hear
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-09-12, 10:25
I believe there has been a recent decline. 15 years ago you could pick up a Sig or Glock off the shelf and be 100 percent confident it would run. I gather Glock has addressed their issues but it definitely contributed to the impression that everything is going down the tubes. H&K seems to have avoided these problems but, as we know, they have passed on the cost of their qc to customer. It seems like a fair deal to me, but a lot of folks would rather roll the dice than pay the price. Bam-that rhymed!:meeting:
The problem is that 4 out of 5 times on a prefect functioning gun. You will never hear about it. On the flip side 4 out of 5 times on that someone gets a problematic gun you are going to hear about it because it is human nature. Whether it be asking questions on how to fix it, what causes it, or just venting anger. When it works right there's no question like this to ask or venting to be done.
Anything that sells is mass numbers is going to have more attention to what problems it has... Regardless of the product. It's a numbers game.
I'm not saying that some guns havent gotten worse. IMO glock and kimber have gone significantly from the quality of the past and that's just two examples.
M&P on the other hand I feel has continued to get better. Sure there are some outstanding issues with certain calibers, but it is a gun that has come a LONG way in improvements over the past few years... Not backwards IMO(and yes I'm biased. If you don't like sorry lol)
Bottom line is the more a product sells, the more you will hear about problems, while at the same time there are probably just as many people NOT having problems you just don't hear about it because there is nothing to hear
I definitely agree that the internet is a force multiplier for negative reviews of products. We have instant access to what nearly every consumer (potentially thousands +)thinks of the product purchased. 20 years ago, you would only hear what the gun rags (read, biased media) and what you could get by word of mouth. That meant you were limited both a small cross section and potentially skewed info.
Another factor at work here, in my opinion, is that people often do not become motivated to write about a product in a positive light as much as they do in a negative light. When everything is working as advertised and they love it, they tend to just bee bop along enjoying their purchase, no need to "vent" per se. When it does not work as advertised they tend to either vent or seek advice on repair.
I don't necessarily believe that products in general are markedly worse than they were in quality 20 years+ ago. We just have better access to the complaints.
The rules for the forum basically state that the poster needs to say if the info they are sharing first hand info, second or third (and list the where the info came from).
https://www.m4carbine.net/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item
C4
I definitely agree that the internet is a force multiplier for negative reviews of products. Another factor at work here, in my opinion, is that people often do not become motivated to write about a product in a positive light as much as they do in a negative light. When everything is working as advertised and they love it, they tend to just bee bop along enjoying their purchase, no need to "vent" per se. When it does not work as advertised they tend to either vent or seek advice on repair.
I don't necessarily believe that products in general are markedly worse than they were in quality 20 years+ ago. We just have better access to the complaints.
I agree with this. There may be more quality control issues these days, but with the internet and social media boom, I think we hear about them much more now than we did 20 years ago.
I agree with this. There may be more quality control issues these days, but with the internet and social media boom, I think we hear about them much more now than we did 20 years ago.
Back in the day, you found out about a gun not being any good from either a friend, local gun shop or at a gun club.
Now, every time a gun fails to feed a cheap POS round, people post about it on the net. This makes people believe that the gun or brand sucks.
Now with that said, there are some KNOWN reliability and or QC issues with several of the large manufacturers these days.
C4
I think it is like saying that today's music sucks and how much better older music is. After all they still play older music right?
Well sure they do. But only the popular stuff. There was just as much crap back int he day. But only the good stuff stuck around.
Same goes for guns, cars, music, TV, you name it.
mrosamilia
03-09-12, 11:55
I believe there has been a recent decline. 15 years ago you could pick up a Sig or Glock off the shelf and be 100 percent confident it would run. I gather Glock has addressed their issues but it definitely contributed to the impression that everything is going down the tubes. H&K seems to have avoided these problems but, as we know, they have passed on the cost of their qc to customer. It seems like a fair deal to me, but a lot of folks would rather roll the dice than pay the price. Bam-that rhymed!:meeting:
I agree 100%!! I will pay for quality.
FChen17213
03-09-12, 11:59
I actually disagree that the issues and problems are overblown. It's not that we only hear about the problems and that the flawless guns go unreported. I would actually bet that the problems are much greater than we ever thought. Why? It's simple. Most people do not go out and shoot 25k rounds a year. 95% or higher of people who buy a pistol do not even shoot more than 2000 rounds a year. So what does this leave? Lots of problematic pistols sitting by nightstands where the owners thinks that his gun is gtg.
Companies out there know that there are problems. Some try to fix them and some don't. It's no surprise that some companies will take the attitude that since 95% of people who buy guns don't use them, they can make problem guns and still very few people will complain. Of those who do complain, they'll fix the problem for that guy but that's it. They're not going to invest tons of money into eradicating the problem for the entire production line altogether. It's too expensive. Not saying all companies are like that, but lots are.
It's like the whole Bushmaster/DPMS/Delton thing here. We can all agree on this forum that those brands are sub-par. However, the avg Joe who buys it to show his friends once a month and shoots 200 rounds out of it a year will probably be ok with it. He won't shoot enough to get the gas key loose. He won't use it enough for the castle nut to get loose. In terms of M&P 9mm accuracy issues? 98% of shooters wn't be able to tell the difference anyway so there's not too high an incentive for Smith-Wesson to jump on this problem immediately and tackle it ASAP. I'm guilty of this myself.....I just recently found out that my old M&P 9 that I never shot can't group at all when I finally took it to the range. It was night and day different than my VTac M&P which actually shoots well.
Does anyone here honestly have the confidence to buy a Glock Gen 4 and bet their life savings on it that it will shoot 5,000 rounds without a hiccup? Or that a randomly picked NIB M&P 9mm will shoot less than 3" at 25 yds from a benchrest? Probably not. The conversation has been had multiple times that it's hard to find a NIB pistol these days that will be fine out of the box.
With all the posts I see I wonder is the "problem" the guns themselves or constant reposts from other forums? Friend of a friend who knew a guy posts? I saw this on you tube stuff? I am trying to understand this stuff.
I’ve been fooling around with guns for over 40 years, and it’s always been like this. Guns today are better built, more accurate, more durable, and easier to shoot well under stress than they ever have been, and it’s BECAUSE we complained about the guns that went before them.
There are also other things to consider. For one thing, materials and manufacturing methods change constantly. Many people have never known anything but polymer-framed striker-fired handguns with MIM parts. But they don’t realize that we’re still trying to master polymer and MIM. It was the same with early stainless guns—they were plagued with galling, or the propensity of certain alloys to cling to one another rather than to slide smoothly. It took years for gunmakers to find the right alloys, and shooters bitched every step of the way.
Nor are striker-fired designs perfect—we still don’t have one with a good trigger, although we hear about the Glock dot-minus connector, which isn’t sold to mere mortals. It was the same with early Colt DA revolvers—the manufacturing and material savvy just wasn’t there to solve the trigger-pull issues, so some of them have extra-long triggers. Someday we’ll have Glock triggers that are like 1911 triggers—but they may not be on Glocks as we know them today.
Also, as our complaining drives things forward, certain designs and models—the Colt Single Action Army comes to mind—will drop from production or be produced in significantly smaller numbers.
So, yes, there are problems with the guns, but that’s the nature of the beast.
The main difference I see is virtual communities like M4Carbine. When I was a kid, rumors flew in gunshops and on ranges, but magazines didn’t cover problems with guns made by their advertisers. Research was almost impossible, and if you got a lemon, you paid a gunsmith to fix it or you sold at a loss and tried something else. Even if your gun worked, you paid more for sights, recoil pads, grips, etc., to actually make it usable. We talk openly today about stuff that was once swept under the rug.
Virtual communities also let us demand better products. Consider the S&W Model 10: a six-shot .38 Special revolver with fixed sights, basically Glock was before there was Glock. For decades, the Model 10 had a few barrel lengths, a round or square butt, and a blue or nickle finish. You could add a few options with aftermarket parts, but that was about it. Compare that to what’s available from modern gunmakers (including S&W) plus look at how fast models evolve, plus the accessories that are available for them. That’s all a result of shooters complaining about their guns.
I wouldn’t worry much about accuracy complaints. Some models have documented issues, but the fixes are well known (if expensive) or you can buy something else. These are pains of working with new manufacturing methods and materials. But they’re often overstated, and a lot of them come from people who just can’t shoot well. Today, the guns themselves are more accurate out of the box than they were even as recently as 20 years ago. Even a gun of the same make and model is better built and more accurate today than it was back then. Yes, you have to learn to shoot the new designs differently, but that’s not the gun’s fault.
The one thing we can’t avoid is the kind of bone-headed management move that resulted in the Bangor Punta years at S&W and Winchester’s 1964 engineering changes. Those will always be with us.
But if we complain enough, we can get them reversed.
Okie John
This is the dirty secret of the firearms industry. The rate of failure right out of the box has to be the highest for any consumer product. If lawnmowers and diswashers were as badly built, the companies that make them would be bankrupt.
The best "names," both foreign and domestic, are producing junk. This is not a new phenomenon. They've been getting away with it for ages.
Ever see a bad review of a gun in a gun rag? Nope. The periodicals all get bolshoi advertising money to keep quiet. You'll see a glowing review of Brand X pistol and two pages later, a big full page ad for said firearm.
Dealers won't stand behind the products they sell. They're happy to take your money, but when the dang thing breaks down the first time you shoot it, they don't want to know you. "Send it back to the factory for warranty service, we don't want to see it back here . . . . "
This is something that the NRA is big enough to do something about, but they're on the take, too.
Dealers won't stand behind the products they sell. They're happy to take your money, but when the dang thing breaks down the first time you shoot it, they don't want to know you. "Send it back to the factory for warranty service, we don't want to see it back here . . . . "
This is a legal thing, and a darned good idea. The last thing you want is the typical gunshop employee trying to fix a weapon you might use to save your life.
Okie John
I agree, it's a numbers game. The more products a company pushes out, the greater the number of lemons that also go out as well. We are only human. Every company that makes anything will eventually put out a dud. How they respond to it is a completely different matter.
I'll have to say though that I believe products are getting better, not worse. Every gun is a test bed of features that will prove to either be useful or not useful, works or will not work. I think that's the case with Glock and S&W, for example. They'll introduce some new parts and features in their guns or use different materials/construction methods to see if they will hold up to consumer demand and use, then keep or drop those features later on down the road. Fortunately or unfortunately, the only way a manufacturer is going to get a good idea of how a new part or manufacturing method is going to work for everyone is for them to introduce said part to the public and have a lot of people using it.
This is the dirty secret of the firearms industry. The rate of failure right out of the box has to be the highest for any consumer product. If lawnmowers and diswashers were as badly built, the companies that make them would be bankrupt.
The best "names," both foreign and domestic, are producing junk. This is not a new phenomenon. They've been getting away with it for ages.
Ever see a bad review of a gun in a gun rag? Nope. The periodicals all get bolshoi advertising money to keep quiet. You'll see a glowing review of Brand X pistol and two pages later, a big full page ad for said firearm.
Dealers won't stand behind the products they sell. They're happy to take your money, but when the dang thing breaks down the first time you shoot it, they don't want to know you. "Send it back to the factory for warranty service, we don't want to see it back here . . . . "
This is something that the NRA is big enough to do something about, but they're on the take, too.
My firearms have been far more reliable than any other consumer products I have experience with. I'm on my fourth dishwasher in 18 years of marriage, third set of washer and dryers, and second refridgerator. Dont' get me started on ATV's, snowmobiles, power tools, chainsaws and weedeaters. I just wish they were as reliable as the firearms I've purchased over the last 10 years.
I have two firearms that are pretty much universally hated around here and they've been flawless for thousands of rounds each. I shot 4000 rounds through a XDm .40 last year including one 800 round class without a single burp. My kids shot 2000 rounds out of junk Carbon 15 last year without a single failure. Thousands more rounds out of a variety of other firarms and only two guns gave us any trouble at all. My 50's vintage 1911 needed a new recoil spring and that cured it's issues. My son's Ruger MkII had magazine issues that we cured ourselves and it's now gtg.
I believe all the reasons already listed are on point. I also think shooters in general are pushing themselves and their guns harder. The gun training biz seems to be at an all time high. More people seem to be getting to higher round counts and with IDPA catching on more each year (and similar organizations) I would suggest people now shoot from unconventional positions and the like. Growing up I didn't know anyone who shot competitively except for slow fire.
Robb Jensen
03-09-12, 20:36
Dealers won't stand behind the products they sell. They're happy to take your money, but when the dang thing breaks down the first time you shoot it, they don't want to know you. "Send it back to the factory for warranty service, we don't want to see it back here . .
SOME shops don't. Where I work we stand behind everything we sell. We purposely don't sell certain brands of guns and accessories because of this.
As you can see, this is my first post. I started lurking here a couple of weeks ago after my son bought a P226 to start honing his skills before he starts a law enforcement academy next month. He is an outstanding shotgunner and regularly harvests deer with a bow. This pistol purchase represents his first, coming at age 24. He wasn't going in specifically seeking a polymer or non polymer gun. Nor was he seeking SA/DA or DA only...he was seeking a pistol that felt right and that just happened to be the Sig.
With the help of a collector and shooter dad, I've been buying, selling and trading guns since I was 13 years old and that was a very long time ago. I've owned dozens of Model 12's, a half dozen Pythons and so many N frames that I couldn't possibly count. I was shooting tricked out 1911's in .45 clubs before there was such a thing as a Glock. Hi-Powers, had em. Walthers, had em. The very first ugly gun i ever bought was a W. German P226. I've killed elk with a .300 mag, ran 100 straight on a skeet range and have shot very respectably with handguns for 40 years. I'm that .01% of the population (like most of you here) whose home a burglar doesn't want to make the mistake of breaking into. Having said that, I have absolutely no interest in attending a tactical pistol course.
So, that's who I am and I felt it was necessary as a new member to point those facts out. I know high quality and fine craftsmanship. I know reliability and also the inherent nature of machines to hiccup. For all of you that WHINE about a failure to eject on one out of thousands of rounds, get real. Do you want to be on duty and have a failure to fire...of course not. Are you smart enough to clear your weapon and engage when that extremely rare event occurs? i certainly hope so. You call each other fanboys and get downright disrespectful to your fellow forum members. You insist manufacturers are pulling the wool over the consumers eyes intentionally, which no respectable manufacturer is doing. You attempt to shame someone for "being in love with what you point out is only a tool" when clearly you are passionate (LOVE) about whatever "tool" you're into.
Obviously, you never bought a S&W 39 or 59, a Hi-Power or even an off the rack 1911 back in the day because they had failures and they came at a quicker rate than once every 500 or 1000 rounds. Autoloaders are complex, precision machines and it was because of that very reason that wheelguns were the "always go bang" handgun of choice forever!
Lighten up on each other, respect the choices/possessions of your fellow forum members and make an attempt to share knowledge and information instead of attitude. I've frequented other forums relating to other hobbies over the years and I must say, just as there are some great members here...never have I seen the ratio of rude and disrespectful members anywhere. You've got members apologizing in advance for what they are about to say because they know 5 or 6 guys are about to verbally rail on them for their preference or choice of pistol and that's just wrong.
ColdDeadHands
03-10-12, 09:22
I too wonder about that. Haven't heard about many problems with Walther & HK. Too bad nobody makes decent sights for the models I like (PPQ, PPS & P2000).
I believe firearms have only been getting better even in the lower quality brands. The presence of the internet and more and more people getting into firearms brings forth more people complaining about issues. Nothing is perfect and when companies start implimenting new designs and features, problems are bound to arise. The reputable companies will hash out the issues and the bad won't. Live with it because everything you buy has these issues.
As you can see, this is my first post. I started lurking here a couple of weeks ago after my son bought a P226 to start honing his skills before he starts a law enforcement academy next month. He is an outstanding shotgunner and regularly harvests deer with a bow. This pistol purchase represents his first, coming at age 24. He wasn't going in specifically seeking a polymer or non polymer gun. Nor was he seeking SA/DA or DA only...he was seeking a pistol that felt right and that just happened to be the Sig.
With the help of a collector and shooter dad, I've been buying, selling and trading guns since I was 13 years old and that was a very long time ago. I've owned dozens of Model 12's, a half dozen Pythons and so many N frames that I couldn't possibly count. I was shooting tricked out 1911's in .45 clubs before there was such a thing as a Glock. Hi-Powers, had em. Walthers, had em. The very first ugly gun i ever bought was a W. German P226. I've killed elk with a .300 mag, ran 100 straight on a skeet range and have shot very respectably with handguns for 40 years. I'm that .01% of the population (like most of you here) whose home a burglar doesn't want to make the mistake of breaking into. Having said that, I have absolutely no interest in attending a tactical pistol course.
So, that's who I am and I felt it was necessary as a new member to point those facts out. I know high quality and fine craftsmanship. I know reliability and also the inherent nature of machines to hiccup. For all of you that WHINE about a failure to eject on one out of thousands of rounds, get real. Do you want to be on duty and have a failure to fire...of course not. Are you smart enough to clear your weapon and engage when that extremely rare event occurs? i certainly hope so. You call each other fanboys and get downright disrespectful to your fellow forum members. You insist manufacturers are pulling the wool over the consumers eyes intentionally, which no respectable manufacturer is doing. You attempt to shame someone for "being in love with what you point out is only a tool" when clearly you are passionate (LOVE) about whatever "tool" you're into.
Obviously, you never bought a S&W 39 or 59, a Hi-Power or even an off the rack 1911 back in the day because they had failures and they came at a quicker rate than once every 500 or 1000 rounds. Autoloaders are complex, precision machines and it was because of that very reason that wheelguns were the "always go bang" handgun of choice forever!
Lighten up on each other, respect the choices/possessions of your fellow forum members and make an attempt to share knowledge and information instead of attitude. I've frequented other forums relating to other hobbies over the years and I must say, just as there are some great members here...never have I seen the ratio of rude and disrespectful members anywhere. You've got members apologizing in advance for what they are about to say because they know 5 or 6 guys are about to verbally rail on them for their preference or choice of pistol and that's just wrong.
The moral of this post is by far one of the best I have seen in a while of the forums I have been on.
The moral of this post is by far one of the best I have seen in a while of the forums I have been on.
Agreed 100%.
I have a bit of expierience. Yep had rack 1911's and high end 1911's. I have had high powers and such. I think the basics of this post is getting blurred. It is not a matter of how often this gun or that gun is having problems and the likes. The main point I was trying to make is this....
Are these current production guns from X, Y, Z manufacturers taking a downward turn on quality, durability, reliabilty, accuracy or are these problems that are being reported FIRST HAND NO BS IT HAPPENED TO ME expieriences?
I as many of you am members for other websites as this one always looking to see what new info I might learn to make myself a more effective shooter and firearms owner. But I wonder how many TRUE problems are problems and not repeats of previously repeated posts from other sites. Yes there are rules but I know I have seen some pictures and posts from this sight posted on others and posts from other websites posted here.
I have a Glock 19 gen 4 no problems and the MP9 Fullsize seems to shoot just fine (not using it for a bullseye match gun). I may be lucky on both accounts or not. Not sure and was just wondering if the BS detector should be silent or is it time to put fresh batteries in it.
Thanks.
You are quite right and i apologize for hijacking your thread on a rant. I should have posted on the "sig face palm" thread which is what got me riled up. I then saw some of the same things starting on your thread and jumped in.
Bottom line is the negative posts bother me but enough of that.
I'm a firm believer in modern manufacturing and certainly in modern metallurgy. If a manufacturer starts utilizing a lesser magazine, that's easily enough rectified, so I see little value in complaining about that incessantly on the internet. I personally have not seen a deterioration in fit and finish of newer guns. None has the finish of the classics nor the hand fitment. Same thing with functionality...I've refused to buy a S&W revolver with a key hole in the side of it but I've shot them and they all performed as anticipated. Buy or reload quality ammo and use a proper grip and you are likely to be good to go with any quality manufacturer.
While I've experienced failures in automatics like everyone else, I've never experienced one on the first pull of the trigger on any given day. For me, a handgun is a defensive weapon and if I grab it out of the night stand and step into my hallway, in that point and shoot scenario I'm likely to be as effective with a Taurus as I am a Les Baer. I'm not a doomsdayer so I don't anticipate having to shoot it out with old Mr. Smith next door to protect my canned goods or my tomato plants. If it ever got that bad, I'd prefer to have a trench gun anyway.
Cheers and I hope everyone enjoys March Madness!
FIRST HAND NO BS IT HAPPENED TO ME experiences I don't post on any forum unless it has happened to me and unless I have dealt with the warranty service department at the factory/distributor to get their response. Are some guns really bad? I paid well over a thousand bucks a piece for the last two pistols I have purchased. Neither would run right out of the box. I won't go into detail other than the issue was one of parts and fit, not ammo or user error. That's pretty bad in my book.
This is the dirty secret of the firearms industry. The rate of failure right out of the box has to be the highest for any consumer product. If lawnmowers and diswashers were as badly built, the companies that make them would be bankrupt.
The best "names," both foreign and domestic, are producing junk. This is not a new phenomenon. They've been getting away with it for ages.
Ever see a bad review of a gun in a gun rag? Nope. The periodicals all get bolshoi advertising money to keep quiet. You'll see a glowing review of Brand X pistol and two pages later, a big full page ad for said firearm.
Dealers won't stand behind the products they sell. They're happy to take your money, but when the dang thing breaks down the first time you shoot it, they don't want to know you. "Send it back to the factory for warranty service, we don't want to see it back here . . . . "
This is something that the NRA is big enough to do something about, but they're on the take, too.
nah i think cars pass guns in many lengths on that one ..
just in Denmark where im from they say that out of 10 brand new cars sold 8 of them is visiting a mechanic within 10 days of delivery with issues.. i do not think the rate is that high on handguns.. i dont even think its that high on all weapons combined
on topic .. the more units produced the greater the risk is for quality issues its like that in any production of any product
Glock sold over 2.5million handguns in 2011 .. that will generate reports of errors...
is there any expectation creep from the internet and the dissemination of "higher order" training methods and performance standards?
nah i think cars pass guns in many lengths on that one ..
just in Denmark where im from they say that out of 10 brand new cars sold 8 of them is visiting a mechanic within 10 days of delivery with issues.. i do not think the rate is that high on handguns.. i dont even think its that high on all weapons combined
on topic .. the more units produced the greater the risk is for quality issues its like that in any production of any product
Glock sold over 2.5million handguns in 2011 .. that will generate reports of errors...
What kind of cars? That's bullshit. We don't have that issue here.
well all cars are sold here even the amercan ones :) im not saying major issues and the statistic probably includes tiny issues as a lightbulb that needs changing or similar .. but some handguns are minor issues out of box as well not all major
As you can see, this is my first post. I started lurking here a couple of weeks ago after my son bought a P226 to start honing his skills before he starts a law enforcement academy next month. He is an outstanding shotgunner and regularly harvests deer with a bow. This pistol purchase represents his first, coming at age 24. He wasn't going in specifically seeking a polymer or non polymer gun. Nor was he seeking SA/DA or DA only...he was seeking a pistol that felt right and that just happened to be the Sig.
With the help of a collector and shooter dad, I've been buying, selling and trading guns since I was 13 years old and that was a very long time ago. I've owned dozens of Model 12's, a half dozen Pythons and so many N frames that I couldn't possibly count. I was shooting tricked out 1911's in .45 clubs before there was such a thing as a Glock. Hi-Powers, had em. Walthers, had em. The very first ugly gun i ever bought was a W. German P226. I've killed elk with a .300 mag, ran 100 straight on a skeet range and have shot very respectably with handguns for 40 years. I'm that .01% of the population (like most of you here) whose home a burglar doesn't want to make the mistake of breaking into. Having said that, I have absolutely no interest in attending a tactical pistol course.
So, that's who I am and I felt it was necessary as a new member to point those facts out. I know high quality and fine craftsmanship. I know reliability and also the inherent nature of machines to hiccup. For all of you that WHINE about a failure to eject on one out of thousands of rounds, get real. Do you want to be on duty and have a failure to fire...of course not. Are you smart enough to clear your weapon and engage when that extremely rare event occurs? i certainly hope so. You call each other fanboys and get downright disrespectful to your fellow forum members. You insist manufacturers are pulling the wool over the consumers eyes intentionally, which no respectable manufacturer is doing. You attempt to shame someone for "being in love with what you point out is only a tool" when clearly you are passionate (LOVE) about whatever "tool" you're into.
Obviously, you never bought a S&W 39 or 59, a Hi-Power or even an off the rack 1911 back in the day because they had failures and they came at a quicker rate than once every 500 or 1000 rounds. Autoloaders are complex, precision machines and it was because of that very reason that wheelguns were the "always go bang" handgun of choice forever!
Lighten up on each other, respect the choices/possessions of your fellow forum members and make an attempt to share knowledge and information instead of attitude. I've frequented other forums relating to other hobbies over the years and I must say, just as there are some great members here...never have I seen the ratio of rude and disrespectful members anywhere. You've got members apologizing in advance for what they are about to say because they know 5 or 6 guys are about to verbally rail on them for their preference or choice of pistol and that's just wrong.
I disagree with a few of your points; first, Something should have progressed since the days of the S&W 59. That was 35 or 40 years ago. With all the technological advancements, it's not at all unreasonable to ask a modern day semi auto pistol to shoot a thousand trouble free rounds. And if our expectations haven't changed in 40 years, there is something is wrong.
Second; this is an edgy place and we all know it. That is the culture of M4C. But, I've seen things get far more disrespectful on forums that most consider to be more PC than this one. Yes, things occasionally go side ways and get out of hand, but it doesn't happen as often you think. I've said it on other boards, so I'll say it here. This place requires that you have a bit of a thick skin. If you can handle it, it has some of the best information you can get on this subject. Some don't belong here. Nothing wrong with that. But as someone who has been here awhile, I can tell you that there are a lot of good people on this forum with great information that they're willing to share. With all due respect, you didn't lurk long enough because you failed to see the underlying tide of this board. All you found is the surface material.
For as far as firearms/tools go; I like the ones that work as they're suppose to and not afraid to question tools, parts, QC or anything else when they don't seem to be right.
Welcome to M4C.
R&D used to mean Research and Development
Nowadays it's Returned from lunch Drunk
And it's shows in that department.
This is the dirty secret of the firearms industry. The rate of failure right out of the box has to be the highest for any consumer product. If lawnmowers and diswashers were as badly built, the companies that make them would be bankrupt.
I agree with this.
Pistols are actually pretty simple machines compared to others that have hundreds of parts, or more. There are probably over a million separate parts in each mass-produced car out there, though if you go on automotive forums, you don't normally hear reports of problems before it is driven 100 miles, whereas if you go on gun forums, you normally see pistols having issues right out of the box.
More cars are sold every year than guns, and there are more automotive fans and forums out there than there are for firearms, and they are paying more for those cars so they have more of a reason to speak up if an issue is found, and each mass produced car has about about a million times more mass-produced parts in it, yet somehow they seem to get it right with a higher percentage than firearms manufacturers.
Why?
I agree with this.
Pistols are actually pretty simple machines compared to others that have hundreds of parts, or more. There are probably over a million separate parts in each mass-produced car out there, though if you go on automotive forums, you don't normally hear reports of problems before it is driven 100 miles, whereas if you go on gun forums, you normally see pistols having issues right out of the box.
More cars are sold every year than guns, and there are more automotive fans and forums out there than there are for firearms, and they are paying more for those cars so they have more of a reason to speak up if an issue is found, and each mass produced car has about about a million times more mass-produced parts in it, yet somehow they seem to get it right with a higher percentage than firearms manufacturers.
Why?
We also have to remember that from the time a car is purchased, it is used every day. Dishwashers, washing machines etc are also used on, at the very least, a weekly basis. Most people who buy guns use them, what, 5 times a year?
That is going to inflate the issues we see with cars, and other appliances, and suppress the number we see with guns.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.