View Full Version : 1st time shooting with iron sights
ridgerunner70
03-09-12, 17:19
My set up is a DDM4 V1. This is the first time shooting with irons and shot 10 shots at 75 yds. Would this be close to 100 yd zero? Is this fair for the 1st time with iron sights? I had the weapon on a table and supported. Is there any adjustments that I should make?
Canonshooter
03-09-12, 17:33
How old are you?
The reason I ask is your eyesight - can you get the front post in sharp focus?
I enjoy shooting the irons but at 58, my eyes ain't what they used to be....
nobody knows
03-09-12, 17:35
How long have you been shooting? Because I find it odd that you say this is the first time shooting with iron sights. What have you been using? A red dot,variable power scope? If so you should definitely focus on mastering irons before you ever touch a red dot or scope(fundamentals first)
As to your posted ?'s, first a 100 yard zero needs to be done at 100 yards.
Second, I do not think that is good enough for a supported position(or unsupportedfor that matter)
Third, it looks like you ether need to go up and left, or your flinching(sp) with the large size of the group its kinda hard to tell witch it is.
I would start at 50 yards,then 75, then 100. That way you will be able to work in a little at a time(and work on keeping all your shots inside the x-9 ring). Just my two penny's
Their are much more experienced shooters here, and I'm sure they will be along shortly.
ridgerunner70
03-09-12, 17:42
How long have you been shooting? Because I find it odd that you say this is the first time shooting with iron sights. What have you been using? A red dot,variable power scope? If so you should definitely focus on mastering irons before you ever touch a red dot or scope(fundamentals first)
As to your posted ?'s, first a 100 yard zero needs to be done at 100 yards.
Second, I do not think that is good enough for a supported position(or unsupportedfor that matter)
Third, it looks like you ether need to go up and left, or your flinching(sp) with the large size of the group its kinda hard to tell witch it is.
I would start at 50 yards,then 75, then 100. That way you will be able to work in a little at a time(and work on keeping all your shots inside the x-9 ring). Just my two penny's
Their are much more experienced shooters here, and I'm sure they will be along shortly.
I mean irons with the aperture; I'm really having a tough time with them. I'll keep practicing but, it's different for me instead of the V rear sight.
TangoSauce
03-09-12, 17:43
Agreed, up and left. You're grouping will get better with experience.
ridgerunner70
03-09-12, 17:44
How old are you?
The reason I ask is your eyesight - can you get the front post in sharp focus?
I enjoy shooting the irons but at 58, my eyes ain't what they used to be....
41 , I don't have bad eyesight 20/20 but I guess your saying by the target I need some glasses, lol .
nobody knows
03-09-12, 17:49
A question that I forgot to ask- what kind of ammo are you using? And what grn? I ask because cheap Russian ammo is not going to perform as well as match grade ammo. Also some rifles have a preference for a certain weight of bullet. One last thing, is you barrels twist rate(its a DD so I am assuming It's a 1/7) a 1/7 is suited to 62gr-77gr, and a 1/9 is for 55gr-and under. Not to say a 1/7 will not accurately shoot 55gr ammo. Just that It's not optimized for that weight bullet.
When I took BRM in the Army they taught us that if your rounds tend to line up vertically then you need to control your breathing better. Side to side you're jerking the trigger. They had us practice trigger squeeze by dry firing the rifle in the prone position while someone else balanced a quarter on the barrel.
nobody knows
03-09-12, 17:52
I mean irons with the aperture; I'm really having a tough time with them. I'll keep practicing but, it's different for me instead of the V rear sight.
Okay gotcha, I thought that kinda sounded strange lol.
What about the aperture is giving you a problem?
nobody knows
03-09-12, 17:59
Is there a particular reason you need a 100 yard zero? Because depending on you situation,you may be better off with a 50 yard,or maybe even a 25 yard zero. Just a thought.
Battle*Hound
03-09-12, 18:02
i certainly need more experience with my irons...when i was able to afford optics, thats what i started shooting. i can shoot decent with the irons but i know there is a lot more for me to learn
Deputy Dan
03-09-12, 18:06
Most folks find aperture sights easier to shoot than open sights.
Your sight picture should look like this:
http://www.fototime.com/5AF15CAF8255F73/standard.jpg
Are you focusing on the front sight post? The basic fundamentals for sighting are the same for aperture and open sights. Good groups can be had by either sight:
A little off topic, a 15 shot 100 yd group with a Type 38 Arisaka (it was too nice not to shoot yesterday)
http://www.fototime.com/298F0ED4E744051/standard.jpg
Try snapping in.
ridgerunner70
03-09-12, 18:07
Okay gotcha, I thought that kinda sounded strange lol.
What about the aperture is giving you a problem?
I'm shooting a 1/7 and xm193. I don't feel like I'm getting a consistent anchor.
ridgerunner70
03-09-12, 18:08
Most folks find aperture sights easier to shoot than open sights.
Your sight picture should look like this:
http://www.fototime.com/5AF15CAF8255F73/standard.jpg
Are you focusing on the front sight post? The basic fundamentals for sighting are the same for aperture and open sights. Good groups can be had by either sight:
A little off topic, a 15 shot 100 yd group with a Type 38 Arisaka (it was too nice not to shoot yesterday)
http://www.fototime.com/298F0ED4E744051/standard.jpg
Try snapping in.
That picture there on the sights is what I've been looking for. Thank you very much.
Deputy Dan
03-09-12, 18:10
No problem!
It is far easier to show that graphic than try to explain it.
ETA- the left image is a center hold... you might want to start with a 6 o'clock hold shown on the right. It will be easier to obtain a consistent sight picture.
Failure2Stop
03-09-12, 18:34
That's not all that bad for 75 yards with irons.
With a 100 yard zero you will be about 1/4 inch low at 75.
I would recommend going with a different target though, here's what I use:
http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/Huge%20Circle%20on%20Grid.pdf
ridgerunner70
03-09-12, 18:45
Is there a particular reason you need a 100 yard zero? Because depending on you situation,you may be better off with a 50 yard,or maybe even a 25 yard zero. Just a thought.
The reason why I want to zero at 100yds is that I have read where a lot of classes want that. So after I get my zero down I will shoot from 25, 50 and so forth to learn my hold over's and under's.
ridgerunner70
03-09-12, 18:51
That's not all that bad for 75 yards with irons.
With a 100 yard zero you will be about 1/4 inch low at 75.
I would recommend going with a different target though, here's what I use:
http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/Huge%20Circle%20on%20Grid.pdf
Thank you for posting the target I will start using this now. I want to purchase an aim point T-1 eventually but first I want to get to a good level of skill with irons before I move to a scope. Don't get me wrong I use a scope for hunting and such but, I want to learn the irons pretty bad.
Also make sure you are using the small aperature for zeroing and precision shooting.
Failure2Stop
03-09-12, 19:25
The reason why I want to zero at 100yds is that I have read where a lot of classes want that. So after I get my zero down I will shoot from 25, 50 and so forth to learn my hold over's and under's.
Quick note:
I definately prefer a 100 meter zero for optics, but I do a different zero for irons.
I zero 2" high at 100 meters (or yards).
It reduces the necessity to hold-over out to 200, where the target can be obscured by the front sight.
I actually picked up the concept from Paul Howe (article here:
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/thebattlefieldzerofullpictures.pdf ) though IIRC he zeroes 3" high at 100 yards.
Wow thanks guys for posting the great info on using irons especially on about the front sight focus I will definitely work on that the next time out.
I know my own skills with iron sights are rather abysmal out to 100 yard and I was wondering with focusing on the front sight do you have any suggestions or tips on how to shoot smaller targets? What I mean is when shooting out to 100 yards when using a hard focus on the front sight the target looks like a small blur on the tip of my front sight post.
Sorry if my question is not clear enough its just kind of hard to explain. I know I hope to be able to attend an apple seed this summer and get some formal help.
ridgerunner70
03-09-12, 20:59
Most folks find aperture sights easier to shoot than open sights.
Your sight picture should look like this:
http://www.fototime.com/5AF15CAF8255F73/standard.jpg
Are you focusing on the front sight post? The basic fundamentals for sighting are the same for aperture and open sights. Good groups can be had by either sight:
A little off topic, a 15 shot 100 yd group with a Type 38 Arisaka (it was too nice not to shoot yesterday)
http://www.fototime.com/298F0ED4E744051/standard.jpg
Try snapping in.
That's a good group; that will give me something to work on
Deputy Dan
03-09-12, 21:26
Wow thanks guys for posting the great info on using irons especially on about the front sight focus I will definitely work on that the next time out.
I know my own skills with iron sights are rather abysmal out to 100 yard and I was wondering with focusing on the front sight do you have any suggestions or tips on how to shoot smaller targets? What I mean is when shooting out to 100 yards when using a hard focus on the front sight the target looks like a small blur on the tip of my front sight post.
Sorry if my question is not clear enough its just kind of hard to explain. I know I hope to be able to attend an apple seed this summer and get some formal help.
The target and rear sight will be blurred, the front sight should be sharply in focus. The human eye can only focus on one point at a time.
Learn the fundamentals and practice. I like to play with the old Alternate Course C targets, especially if I only have access to the pistol range. It is a 25m course that simulates targets out to 300m. You don't get the experience doping the wind, but it will tell you if you are making sighting errors. If memory serves me correctly, it is shot with 4 10 rd mags, 20 rds supported prone, 20 rds unsupported prone... I forget the time limits. Not difficult, but not easy to keep all the rounds in the small circle on the individual targets:
http://www.fototime.com/4C028F004BA8D8A/standard.jpg
ETA the time limits are 2 min to fire 20 rds supported and 2 min for 20 rds unsupported.
Jake Bauer
03-09-12, 22:44
Does anyone have access to that target that is meant to be used at 50 yards with the smaller target below it that you use to zero your irons at 100 yards?
ridgerunner70
03-10-12, 17:57
Day 2 shooting with irons at 25m with the 100 yd calibrated target. Should I make any adjustments now or should I keep practicing with my anchor and getting more used to irons at this yardage? 10 shots here.
ridgerunner70
03-10-12, 18:35
Does anyone have access to that target that is meant to be used at 50 yards with the smaller target below it that you use to zero your irons at 100 yards?
I just seen it posted last night but, cant find it now. Downloaded it yesterday and used it today.
Does anyone have access to that target that is meant to be used at 50 yards with the smaller target below it that you use to zero your irons at 100 yards?
Maybe this what you were looking for?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=95226&highlight=aimpoint+target
Jake Bauer
03-10-12, 22:11
Maybe this what you were looking for?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=95226&highlight=aimpoint+target
Those are a little more complicated than the one i was looking for, but those would work too.
Failure2Stop
03-12-12, 05:51
Does anyone have access to that target that is meant to be used at 50 yards with the smaller target below it that you use to zero your irons at 100 yards?
Super simple method:
Use whatever target allows you to get a really nice, solid, repeatable point of aim.
Adjust group so it is about 3/4 of an inch below your point of aim.
Done.
There is no need to have 4 different targets for zeroing, and unless you actually shoot at 100 yards/meters, it's just an educated guess anyway.
I have observed somewhere around 2,000 people zeroing M16s/M4s and never have I seen a 25 meter/36 yard/ or 50 meter/yard expedient zero ever be right on at the actual desired zero range.
Quick note:
I definately prefer a 100 meter zero for optics, but I do a different zero for irons.
I zero 2" high at 100 meters (or yards).
It reduces the necessity to hold-over out to 200, where the target can be obscured by the front sight.
I actually picked up the concept from Paul Howe (article here:
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/thebattlefieldzerofullpictures.pdf ) though IIRC he zeroes 3" high at 100 yards.
I'm very interested in reading Mr. Howe's link, but that link appears to be dead. What is the gist?
I'm very interested in reading Mr. Howe's link, but that link appears to be dead. What is the gist?
Archived here: http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2.html
Great info on this thread by the way, thanks for the discussion.
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