View Full Version : Comparing Stainless Barrels
I'm putting a new upper together, with the end state to be 16", capable of putting 75gr rounds inside a 1 MOA circle at 300m, and lighter than my RRA heavy profile upper. I've found these:
Lilja-Nordic
http://shop.nordiccomp.com/Lilja-Nordic-AR-Rifle-Barrel-Stainless-16-BBL-223-16M-LN.htm
The Lilja-Nordic has a 1:8 twist. Is that tight enough for my purposes?
GlobalTactical
http://global-tactical.com/16inchmidlengthreconbarrel556mminstock.aspx
Shilen blank, but I'm not familiar with GTS.
Wilson
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-Match-Grade-Barrel-556-NATO-Recon-Tactical-16-1-7-Twist-Stainless-Fluted/productinfo/TR-556RC16F-17/
NATO 5.56 chamber v. the Wylde chamber of the others. Not as accurate, perhaps? "Match Grade" is sometimes just a nice marketing phrase.
Rainier/White Oak
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-Match-Grade-Barrel-556-NATO-Recon-Tactical-16-1-7-Twist-Stainless-Fluted/productinfo/TR-556RC16F-17/
The heavier profile is not attractive for a person of my age (hint, hint).
Suggestions, based on either positive or negative experience?
Thanks.
Noveske (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=b-16lw-556&cat=158&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=)
I have this barrel sitting on my work bench waiting for installation. Hopefully I will be able to install and shoot it soon. I'll try to report back if I remember this thread.
Leonidas24
03-09-12, 21:52
My vote goes towards Noveske as well. I still have a 12.5" SS Noveske on my SBR that's 9,000 rounds into its life and I can still hold 1.5" groups at 100 yards with a 4 MOA Aimpoint H1. With a magnified optic I'm sure it'd be somewhere in the 1 MOA or even sub-MOA area.
I've also owned a WOA 18" rifle-gas SPR barrel and it held 1 MOA at 100 yards with decent glass. Personally I'd pony up for the Noveske. It might hurt the wallet a little more but you'll enjoy it so much more.
Alaskapopo
03-09-12, 22:38
My vote goes towards Noveske as well. I still have a 12.5" SS Noveske on my SBR that's 9,000 rounds into its life and I can still hold 1.5" groups at 100 yards with a 4 MOA Aimpoint H1. With a magnified optic I'm sure it'd be somewhere in the 1 MOA or even sub-MOA area.
I've also owned a WOA 18" rifle-gas SPR barrel and it held 1 MOA at 100 yards with decent glass. Personally I'd pony up for the Noveske. It might hurt the wallet a little more but you'll enjoy it so much more.
I love my Noveske 18 inch Rogue hunter however it does have one quirk that my friends Noveske has as well. They shoot match bullets well but with ball its poor. I mean more poor than you would expect ball to be. For me its just under 1 moa with match bullets and 2.5 moa with FMJ rounds. I don't notice as drastic of a difference with my other AR''s I think its due to the poligonal rifling having a tighter seal and distorting the open base of the FMJ bullets. Just a theory.
Pat
I'm putting a new upper together, with the end state to be 16", capable of putting 75gr rounds inside a 1 MOA circle at 300m, and lighter than my RRA heavy profile upper. I've found these:
Lilja-Nordic
http://shop.nordiccomp.com/Lilja-Nordic-AR-Rifle-Barrel-Stainless-16-BBL-223-16M-LN.htm
The Lilja-Nordic has a 1:8 twist. Is that tight enough for my purposes?
GlobalTactical
http://global-tactical.com/16inchmidlengthreconbarrel556mminstock.aspx
Shilen blank, but I'm not familiar with GTS.
Wilson
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-Match-Grade-Barrel-556-NATO-Recon-Tactical-16-1-7-Twist-Stainless-Fluted/productinfo/TR-556RC16F-17/
NATO 5.56 chamber v. the Wylde chamber of the others. Not as accurate, perhaps? "Match Grade" is sometimes just a nice marketing phrase.
Rainier/White Oak
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-Match-Grade-Barrel-556-NATO-Recon-Tactical-16-1-7-Twist-Stainless-Fluted/productinfo/TR-556RC16F-17/
The heavier profile is not attractive for a person of my age (hint, hint).
Suggestions, based on either positive or negative experience?
Thanks.
The 'X' ring on an NRA high power target is 3" wide. In 15 years I've only seen one 100\10x target shot at at 300 yards. I'm not saying there aren't more, but I've only seen one. It was shot with a custom bolt action rifle with a bull barrel.
'F' class shooters fire 600 and 1,000 yard groups at the same level of accuracy you're trying to achieve. The difference is they use rifles like this one to do it.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html
I don't think any of the barrels you referenced are going to give you this level of accuracy. The AR is an accurate platform, but I don't think anything other than a bull barrel is going to have a chance at delivering repeatable 1\3 MOA performance.
I don't think any of the barrels you referenced are going to give you this level of accuracy. The AR is an accurate platform, but I don't think anything other than a bull barrel is going to have a chance at delivering repeatable 1\3 MOA performance.
He said 1 MOA at 300 not 1 inch.
Anyway, OP, I'm surprised you can get 75's to shoot worth a crap out of anything. I've never touched a gun that liked them best.
To your point, yes, you are overlooking Krieger barrels. Noveske / WOA produce good barrels, for sure. But they are not Kriegers. Many people, myself included, consider Krieger to be the king of the crop. Take a look:
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/
He said 1 MOA at 300 not 1 inch.
Anyway, OP, I'm surprised you can get 75's to shoot worth a crap out of anything. I've never touched a gun that liked them best.
To your point, yes, you are overlooking Krieger barrels. Noveske / WOA produce good barrels, for sure. But they are not Kriegers. Many people, myself included, consider Krieger to be the king of the crop. Take a look:
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/
Thanks for catching that my goal is a rifle that shoots to 1 MOA (i.e., better than I am capable of). Typo on the 75 gr. I should have said 77 gr, with the general intent of approaching the terminal ballistics and accuracy of the M262 round for more thump downrange than I get from M855. My apologies for adding a dose of confusion to my question.
He said 1 MOA at 300 not 1 inch.
Anyway, OP, I'm surprised you can get 75's to shoot worth a crap out of anything. I've never touched a gun that liked them best.
To your point, yes, you are overlooking Krieger barrels. Noveske / WOA produce good barrels, for sure. But they are not Kriegers. Many people, myself included, consider Krieger to be the king of the crop. Take a look:
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/
My bad on the 1 MOA thing.
Krieger makes some great barrels, but so does Lilja and Shilen. The advantage to the Krieger is they have been making their barrels for the target community for longer than some barrel companies have been in business.
As to the 75 gr rounds, I've been shooting the Hornady 75 gr A-Max for a few years and it's deadly accurate out to 600 yards. I just tested some 75 gr Hornady TAP and it's as good as the A-Max. 1\9 will stabilize the 75 gr rounds, and 1\8 will shoot anything you can fit into the magazine.
I know it's not exactly within the OP but I've always had better luck with 62 to 69 grain, reguardless of barrel. This was with lilja and woa.
But I'm not a marksman by any means. So take it for what it is.
I know it's not exactly within the OP but I've always had better luck with 62 to 69 grain, reguardless of barrel. This was with lilja and woa.
But I'm not a marksman by any means. So take it for what it is.
I've also found the 69GR SMK's to often print marginally smaller groups at 100M than the 77's will, but the ballistic performance of the 77 starts to shine at distance. Most of the time, the 77 is still the better choice for long range shooting.
I'll take your word for this. I seldom have a chance to go to the far beyond (over 200) and when I do, it's 30 cal or above to 700 or 1000.
On a side note, how do you think the kreiger stacks up to lilja, woa, dd, etc, and how much better. Don't misconstrue as smartass, just want to know as I've made my mind up for a 300 BLK Noveske. Always needing more knowledge. Thanks
I'll take your word for this. I seldom have a chance to go to the far beyond (over 200) and when I do, it's 30 cal or above to 700 or 1000.
On a side note, how do you think the kreiger stacks up to lilja, woa, dd, etc, and how much better. Don't misconstrue as smartass, just want to know as I've made my mind up for a 300 BLK Noveske. Always needing more knowledge. Thanks
If I was in the market for a 300BLK barrel, Noveske would be at the top of the list.
As far as your question goes, I wouldn't compare Daniel Defense barrels to Lilja or WOA. Apples and Oranges. DD makes good combat grade, chrome lined barrels. Lilja and WOA are precision oriented. Really not similar. In my experience DD's CHF barrels are 1.5-2.5 MOA barrels that will last a very long time. Lilja and WOA make SUB-MOA match grade barrels that are not chrome lined and will not take the abuse of a chrome lined CHF barrel.
When it comes to top tier barrels, the major difference is the rifling process. Each company executes their chosen process brilliantly, and each has won many competitions and trophies.
Here is a general rundown of barrels as I see it. The list is not all inclusive. Keep in mind all the below will shoot sub-moa, easily outdoing most shooters and commercial ammunition. Handloading is required to achieve the level of accuracy these barrels are capable of.
Top Tier (true match grade barrels):
Cut Rifling - Krieger, Bartlein, Obermeyer, Rock Creek
Push Button Rifling - Hart, Shilen
Pull Button Rifling - Schneider, Lilja
Second Tier (high end production grade barrels):
All button rifled - Noveske SS barrels, WOA (finishes various blanks), BCM SS410, Lothar Walther,
Unless you're a hell of a shooter and actively competing, it is highly unlikely that you will notice a significant difference between any of these, so don't sweat it too much.
For my money, in the 5.56 AR arena (tactical side, not match side) I've been extremely satisfied with BCM SS410 barrels and will continue to go that route in the future. I think they got the profile right as far as weight goes. Not too heavy, but heavy enough so that POI doesn't walk even when the barrel is heated up. They are also hand lapped, and do well with a wide range of ammunition. 1/2 to 3/4 MOA performance with 77GR SMK's is the norm (10 shot groups).
If ultimate accuracy is your concern, you can't beat a Krieger or similar with a monster profile.
justin_247
03-13-12, 05:45
Here is a general rundown of barrels as I see it. The list is not all inclusive. Keep in mind all the below will shoot sub-moa, easily outdoing most shooters and commercial ammunition. Handloading is required to achieve the level of accuracy these barrels are capable of.
Top Tier (true match grade barrels):
Cut Rifling - Krieger, Bartlein, Obermeyer, Rock Creek
Push Button Rifling - Hart, Shilen
Pull Button Rifling - Schneider, Lilja
Second Tier (high end production grade barrels):
All button rifled - Noveske SS barrels, WOA (finishes various blanks), BCM SS410, Lothar Walther,
Unless you're a hell of a shooter and actively competing, it is highly unlikely that you will notice a significant difference between any of these, so don't sweat it too much.
For my money, in the 5.56 AR arena (tactical side, not match side) I've been extremely satisfied with BCM SS410 barrels and will continue to go that route in the future. I think they got the profile right as far as weight goes. Not too heavy, but heavy enough so that POI doesn't walk even when the barrel is heated up. They are also hand lapped, and do well with a wide range of ammunition. 1/2 to 3/4 MOA performance with 77GR SMK's is the norm (10 shot groups).
If ultimate accuracy is your concern, you can't beat a Krieger or similar with a monster profile.
This is an excellent post and a great list. Thank you for posting it - very informative!
If I was in the market for a 300BLK barrel, Noveske would be at the top of the list.
As far as your question goes, I wouldn't compare Daniel Defense barrels to Lilja or WOA. Apples and Oranges. DD makes good combat grade, chrome lined barrels. Lilja and WOA are precision oriented. Really not similar. In my experience DD's CHF barrels are 1.5-2.5 MOA barrels that will last a very long time. Lilja and WOA make SUB-MOA match grade barrels that are not chrome lined and will not take the abuse of a chrome lined CHF barrel.
When it comes to top tier barrels, the major difference is the rifling process. Each company executes their chosen process brilliantly, and each has won many competitions and trophies.
Here is a general rundown of barrels as I see it. The list is not all inclusive. Keep in mind all the below will shoot sub-moa, easily outdoing most shooters and commercial ammunition. Handloading is required to achieve the level of accuracy these barrels are capable of.
Top Tier (true match grade barrels):
Cut Rifling - Krieger, Bartlein, Obermeyer, Rock Creek
Push Button Rifling - Hart, Shilen
Pull Button Rifling - Schneider, Lilja
Second Tier (high end production grade barrels):
All button rifled - Noveske SS barrels, WOA (finishes various blanks), BCM SS410, Lothar Walther,
Unless you're a hell of a shooter and actively competing, it is highly unlikely that you will notice a significant difference between any of these, so don't sweat it too much.
For my money, in the 5.56 AR arena (tactical side, not match side) I've been extremely satisfied with BCM SS410 barrels and will continue to go that route in the future. I think they got the profile right as far as weight goes. Not too heavy, but heavy enough so that POI doesn't walk even when the barrel is heated up. They are also hand lapped, and do well with a wide range of ammunition. 1/2 to 3/4 MOA performance with 77GR SMK's is the norm (10 shot groups).
If ultimate accuracy is your concern, you can't beat a Krieger or similar with a monster profile.
a0cake,
Good intel. Real eye opener on a couple of brands I thought used a different process. Thanks for taking the time.
Eta: why would you say the (usually) larger profile SS match barrels don't take the abuse?
300BLK and 700-1,000 yard accuracy is an oxymoron. If normally you shoot up to 200 yards, and then occasionally well out beyond, reserve your BLK for the up close-to-200 yard range gate and keep your 30s for longer ranges.
To a large extent, it doesn't matter what the mechanical accuracy is of your combo, the BLK is not a long range cartridge. Velocities will be so low that wind will really push the the bullets around, and you'll be highly unlikey to maintain MOA accuracy repeatedely.
300BLK and 700-1,000 yard accuracy is an oxymoron. If normally you shoot up to 200 yards, and then occasionally well out beyond, reserve your BLK for the up close-to-200 yard range gate and keep your 30s for longer ranges.
To a large extent, it doesn't matter what the mechanical accuracy is of your combo, the BLK is not a long range cartridge. Velocities will be so low that wind will really push the the bullets around, and you'll be highly unlikey to maintain MOA accuracy repeatedely.
You misunderstand my horrible typing and gramatical structure of that post on my iPhone.
My 10" 300BLK will be 100 yard max as it will be 100% suppressed.
0-50 pistols(pushing it with my old eyes now).
50, 100, 200 is what I shoot ar, subMG, etc.
200 to 1000+ is for beltfeds, 308, 30-06, bolt or my Barrett 99 50 cal.
I just wanted to broaden my knowledge base on barrels and combined it with telling I was building a 300blk and set on a Noveske barrel.
I understand the limitations of my cartridges and also reload.
Lilja and WOA make SUB-MOA match grade barrels that are not chrome lined and will not take the abuse of a chrome lined CHF barrel.
Great post a0cake. Could you or someone who knows what they are talking about expound on the above quote for a layman? Tactically speaking in what scenario(s) specifically would a SS barrel "not take the abuse of a chrome lined CHF barrel"? What tasks would you want the chrome lined over the SS because of the abusive nature of the task/mission?
I am considering purchasing my first SS barrel and am wondering (probably academically) specifically where it operationally fits and where it does not as it relates to the "abuse" it can handle.
Also, to keep it on topic, what are the differences between the stainless steels used in SS barrels as it relates to longevity and "abuse".
Great post a0cake. Could you or someone who knows what they are talking about expound on the above quote for a layman? Tactically speaking in what scenario(s) specifically would a SS barrel "not take the abuse of a chrome lined CHF barrel"? What tasks would you want the chrome lined over the SS because of the abusive nature of the task/mission?
I am considering purchasing my first SS barrel and am wondering (probably academically) specifically where it operationally fits and where it does not as it relates to the "abuse" it can handle.
Also, to keep it on topic, what are the differences between the stainless steels used in SS barrels as it relates to longevity and "abuse".
Sure. I didn't mean to imply that SS barrels weren't suited to high round counts. No, they aren't as durable as chrome lined carbon steel barrels, especially CHF ones, but they are tougher than often given credit for. Here's a "copy and paste" of a previous reply of mine in response to the question: "Would you use a stainless steel barrel for duty / combat?"
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Sure would, and do. I'm somewhat of an "accuracy nut," and give minor advantages in precision between platforms a lot more consideration than I think most people do. A 0.5 MOA difference in accuracy can make or break my relationship with a rifle.
Because of this, and also because of the fact that my requirements require high degrees of precision, I have moved almost exclusively to SS barrels for both work and personal rifles.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't worry too much about the durability of a Stainless barrel for the vast majority of applications. Here's how I'll qualify that statement:
I've personally put somewhere around 12K rounds of MK262 through an issued MK12 Mod 1 (Stainless barrel by Douglas) both in training and overseas in the last few years. All rounds were shot suppressed and some were F/A as it was on an M16A1 lower. F/A fire is not really in the job description for a MK12 but given the capability I chose to become intimately familiar with operating the rifle in this way. The firing schedule over the course of those 12k rounds was varied. Sometimes I would only need to shoot 10 or 15 rounds in one engagement over the course of a few hours...on really bad days it would see 6 or 7 magazines in 10 minutes.
The barrel was new when I got it so I had a blank slate to work with, which is always a good feeling with an issued gun. Anyway, I established an accuracy baseline in the beginning and found it to be a solid 3/4 MOA gun with MK262. Fast-forward 20 months and 12 thousand rounds (I'm anal about logging round counts with my rifles). I have a ritual of going out to the range every two weeks when possible to confirm zero and make sure accuracy is where it needs to be. Even at the end of my time with that rifle it was still producing the same boringly accurate results after 12k rounds.
Corrosion wise, I had no issues. The rifle saw austere conditions, summer time humidity, rain, winter sleet and snow...but I always made sure it was oiled and clean. If you take care of a stainless barrel it will take care of you. Neglect it and it and you will have problems. Even relatively cut off from the supply chain in the Afghan mountains, myself and everybody else in the section with stainless barrels was able to keep them in A+ condition. Non-issue unless you plan on not being around a decent CLP for months at a time. That's not real life. While important for somebody's end of the world fantasy, not being able to get CLP on and in the barrel is not a real world consideration.
On the personally owned side of things (the following is taken from a previous post of mine but much of it applies here):
What I've noticed about my BCM SS410 barrel is that groups do in fact open up when the barrel gets extremely hot but POI does not shift. The groups just expand but stay centered. Even when the barrel gets to this point (extremely hot), my groups won't open up past 1.5 MOA...better than many chrome lined barrels when cool, and far better than most chrome lined barrels when hot. In the last few months I've put 5K rounds through my SS410 and have noticed no degradation in accuracy. It still prints 1/2 to 3/4 MOA 10 shot groups, only opening up beyond that when really really pushed heat wise.
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Now, after all that, here's what I think people need to look at when selecting a stainless vs chrome lined barrel.
- Are you in a position to be able to feed it exclusively match grade ammunition? There's no point in going stainless if you're shooting M855. The best barrel in the world won't make inaccurate ammunition shoot straight. If you can't afford / can't use match ammunition for whatever reason...go chrome.
- If the answer to above is YES, then you are either pretty well off financially or your unit or organization is in a place to provide it. In either of these cases, the monetary cost / practical difficulty of a replacement barrel will be absolutely trivial in comparison to the cost and availability of ammunition. In other words, if you can afford 10-15k rounds of match ammunition, you can afford a new barrel. If your unit / organization can get that much match ammunition, it can get you a new barrel. In either case, barrel life is a non issue.
- Corrosion problems and sudden catastrophic failures from high volumes of fire are in my experience not relevant or warranted fears. I'm not trying to tell war stories here but I've asked a lot out of stainless barrels in some engagements as large and frenzied as you can imagine in the valleys and mountains of eastern Afghanistan. I don't forsee many other stainless "duty" barrels being faced with 125 red bearded nutjobs advancing down the mountain toward them. Having been in such situations with a stainless barrel I have to question the veracity of anybody who claims that SS barrels are not durable enough for "combat." Gotta wonder what they're basing that off of. Rest assured that a good stainless barrel is more than durable enough for combat conditions. Deliberately doing 10 mag dumps in a row on the range for Youtube is another story. Also not real life.
So, my position is that if you can take an honest look at yourself and determine that A) you can shoot to the potential of a match type barrel and B) you can afford to feed it a high quality diet and C) You don't mind the extra weight from the SS and beefier contour and D) you will not neglect to maintain your equipment...that you in fact SHOULD choose a stainless barrel for the edge in accuracy.
If the answer to any of these or the above questions is NO...go chrome.
Sorry for being so long winded.
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I was asking for a 'long winded' specific answer. The more detail the better IMO.
Awesome post. Much appreciated.
CarbonCycles
03-13-12, 20:09
Sorry for being so long winded.
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Very solid post!
The barrel was new when I got it so I had a blank slate to work with, which is always a good feeling with an issued gun. Anyway, I established an accuracy baseline in the beginning and found it to be a solid 3/4 MOA gun with MK262. Fast-forward 20 months and 12 thousand rounds (I'm anal about logging round counts with my rifles). I have a ritual of going out to the range every two weeks when possible to confirm zero and make sure accuracy is where it needs to be. Even at the end of my time with that rifle it was still producing the same boringly accurate results after 12k rounds.
Any idea of the accuracy this barrel was delivering at distance? As a target shooter I know that once a barrel stops hitting on call at 600 yards it gets 'retired' to the reduced course matches. I'm interested to know how much long range accuracy was lost, (if any), after 12k rounds.
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