View Full Version : suppressed sbr reliability problems
I believe its overgassed. Before the suppressor with an h2 buffer casings would land about 3oclock. With suppressor their shooting several yards forward at 1oclock.
First time out I had several malfunctions with bolt over base and failure to lock on empty mag
So I ordered h3 buffer and new spring. Its not as bad as before but will still sometimes jam and will not always lock open.
Any suggestions?
Oh specs. 12.5 carbine length. M4-2000 suppressor. Now a h3 buffer. Semi carrier
This gun use to be 100% reliable. And now with the suppressor it is not and its very fraustrating
Robb Jensen
03-10-12, 19:04
What make BCG and barrel?
WOA 12.5. I believe bcg is sabre defense. I've got the upgraded extractor in it as well.
BCG is semi though. Thinking about ordering an auto to hopefully slow it down a little more. Really don't know what else to do if that doesn't work
Robb Jensen
03-10-12, 19:39
1st thing I would try is a known good bolt carrier group.
Ill order a auto carrier tmw.
Before the suppressor with an h2 buffer casings would land about 3oclock. With suppressor their shooting several yards forward at 1oclock.
and failure to lock on empty mag
Of course it's over-gassed! If you're running 100% suppressed, you can get a set screw style gas block, otherwise, if you're going to run suppressed and not and want it to be reliable I'd look into a switchblock.
The M16 bolt will be a little bit heavier which will help, you already have an H3 buffer, so I wouldn't bother going higher. It's not going to help.
If it were me... I'd probably start looking into a switchblock and see if it'll clear my rail and configuration. I borrowed a 10.5" upper for awhile that had the exact same issues. I shot it later after the owner installed a jp adjustable gas block - night and day difference. (aside note, having that upper for a couple weeks made me certain I do not want a 10.5".) He committed it to 100% suppressed which isn't for me, but it was a toy for him.
I really would like to stay away from an adjustable gas block if possible.
Ill try the auto carrier. If nothing then ill try a 9mm buffer.
Can't do a switchblock due to.my rail
I get why Robb would suggest auto carrier (to remove unknowns) but honestly after being here with this myself, I can not possibly imagine the extra weight of an auto carrier making a single bit of difference. If you were using a carbine buffer maybe I guess, but not an H3. It could help with the bolt lock back, but I really think you're just classic overgassed which happens with short barrels and suppressors.
You could look into the W.A.R. Receiver, it's adjustable and let's you run any rail, still vaporware though.
BufordTJustice
03-10-12, 22:56
You may also want to look into a Vltor A5 system. Jon Consiglio has given several good reports of his use of one on his SBR's. Hopefully he can chime in here.
Chase,
My suggestion is to get a blue Springco spring and use an H3 buffer. Your other option is to get the Vltor A5 which I can almost guarantee will solve the issue. I would always use an auto carrier as well.
I would not get an adjustable gas block, unless it was a factory installed type not some aftermarket retrofit. Consider removing the O-ring as you most likely do not need it.
To prevent over gassing in new 10.5 builds, would cutting down a 16" barrel with carbine gas system grant you a smaller port size that would be better suited to suppressed fire than a factory 10.5" with gas port tuned to unsuppressed fire?
Fwiw, to me custom springs would NOT be an option. An adjustable gas block makes the system see the same forces suppressed and not. No magic springs or extension kit will do that, IMO, those are bandages that may solve some symptoms of - but not prevent the issue of having extra bolt speed / cyclic rate.
I tried car, h1, h2, and spikes tungsten (h3-ish?) buffers all with auto carriers, my brass was consistently at 1 o'clock every time. I saw extremely little change by switching buffers. I saw more of a change with different silencers. An HTG can my dealer had put me around 2 o'clock and an AAC ranger was worse at 1.
The thing about adjustable gas systems is it's a solution that lets all of your action parts work the same, shot to shot. All standard parts minus the adjustment method. With a super heavy buffer or spring system, the action is still working in two very different modes/speeds.
Do you have any experience with the A5 system? Do you know its'original intent?
Fwiw, to me custom springs would NOT be an option. An adjustable gas block makes the system see the same forces suppressed and not. No magic springs or extension kit will do that, IMO, those are bandages that may solve some symptoms of - but not prevent the issue of having extra bolt speed / cyclic rate.
I tried car, h1, h2, and spikes tungsten (h3-ish?) buffers all with auto carriers, my brass was consistently at 1 o'clock every time. I saw extremely little change by switching buffers. I saw more of a change with different silencers. An HTG can my dealer had put me around 2 o'clock and an AAC ranger was worse at 1.
The thing about adjustable gas systems is it's a solution that lets all of your action parts work the same, shot to shot. All standard parts minus the adjustment method. With a super heavy buffer or spring system, the action is still working in two very different modes/speeds.
Okay, I ran some factory .223 hornady 55 grains through her just a min ago
Carbine- fail to lock on pmag- 1 oclock ejection
h2- fail to lock on pmag- 2oclock ejection
h3- locked a little over half the time ejection was just a little better than 2 oclock
I did have no jams this time. I cleaned the gun before shooting, As I mentioned earlier it seems to do worse when it is clean than when it is dirty. So based on all this and the fact it runs better dirty than clean I must assume that it is overgassed
I guess I will order a 9mm buffer and a auto carrier and hope that will be enough to slow down the bolt
any advice is welcome
As I said before. Get a blue Springco spring or switch to the A5 system.
Okay, I ran some factory .223 hornady 55 grains through her just a min ago
Carbine- fail to lock on pmag- 1 oclock ejection
h2- fail to lock on pmag- 2oclock ejection
h3- locked a little over half the time ejection was just a little better than 2 oclock
I did have no jams this time. I cleaned the gun before shooting, As I mentioned earlier it seems to do worse when it is clean than when it is dirty. So based on all this and the fact it runs better dirty than clean I must assume that it is overgassed
I guess I will order a 9mm buffer and a auto carrier and hope that will be enough to slow down the bolt
any advice is welcome
Okay Ill order the spring and hold off on the other parts
I have no idea what the port size is like with WOA, though I know their barrels are good.
But, I do know that my 11.5" with H3 and blue Springco ran. I also have a 12.5" and it also runs without issue. I now run both on A5's and have zero issues at all.
Okay Ill order the spring and hold off on the other parts
Im not sure what size it is either. I will say its had some rounds down the barrel. I dont keep count but I shoot a couple thousand a year, and Ive had this barrel for about 3 or 4. So if this doesnt work then a new barrel maybe the answer
ITs ran fine its entire life until now with the suppressor.
I just checked Sprinco website.
Would the red be better? or is that overkill.
My thinking with the red is that if it is too stiff I have lighter buffers to tinker with, whereas the blue from what I have read on their site is not much more than a standard recoil spring
BufordTJustice
03-11-12, 15:22
Im not sure what size it is either. I will say its had some rounds down the barrel. I dont keep count but I shoot a couple thousand a year, and Ive had this barrel for about 3 or 4. So if this doesnt work then a new barrel maybe the answer
ITs ran fine its entire life until now with the suppressor.
I just checked Sprinco website.
Would the red be better? or is that overkill.
My thinking with the red is that if it is too stiff I have lighter buffers to tinker with, whereas the blue from what I have read on their site is not much more than a standard recoil spring
Chase,
rsilvers measured the load in-battery for a variety of carbine springs. He found that a standard (fresh) carbine spring applied about 6lbs of force in battery. A Springco Blue about 7.5 lbs, and a Red about 8 lbs. I own a Springco White, Blue, and Red (and a green if you're using the A5 system). The difference between the blue and red may not seem like a lot on paper, but in terms of function, it's an uphill climb between the red and blue. Most carbines I experiment with will run the white or the blue....only a few will run the red.
As Gunz said, I would start with the Blue and go from there. The RED is typically reserved for problem guns or bigger calibers than 5.56 (6.8spc, 6.5, 300BLK, etc.).
The Blue is quite a bit stronger than a std carbine spring; you can tell immediately when you work the charging handle.
Ordering a blue now. Ill report back with what happens
Also ordered an auto carrier
Eurodriver
03-11-12, 16:36
I wouldn't mess around with springs or buffers when dealing with a suppressed AR again.
Although I don't really feel a difference, I get flawless performance with the A5 system.
Ordering a blue now. Ill report back with what happens
Also ordered an auto carrier
What carrier did you order?
Do you have any experience with the A5 system? Do you know [it's original] intent?
I don't own one, but as I understand it, it's a basically a longer tube, spring, and buffer set to decrease the cyclic rate (mostly by allowing more time for the bcg to travel).
Can you explain how lowering the cyclic rate by the same value suppressed and not suppressed, rather, X unsuppressed and X+200rpm suppressed, is better than having X suppressed and also X unsuppressed?
A gas adjustment will allow for (in theory of course) an identical unsuppressed and suppressed cyclic rate. LaRue and Noveske both offer very nice adjustable regulators, has in your opinion Vltor came up with a better and more direct solution with the A5 system?
Because short of a magic spring (or actually, a progressive rate or switchable spring rate design), no buffer system out there is going to decrease JUST suppressed rate, it will decrease both unsupp and supp. In order to just cut one down you need to be able to adjust the gas volume/pressure.
I'm advocating an adjustable regulator in order to make all things equal. Imo, addressing it any other way is more of a band-aid fix. That's of course just my opinion. The A5 might be the best thing ever! That said... Only getting the bolt speed the same in every firing mode would be ideal. In 556, the only way to do that would be to use an adjustable block. As it was explained to me, 300blk was designed so that the subsonic rounds developed way more pressure faster than "needed" in order to make the sub and super rounds function the same to the weapon, this is a great idea, but not possible with 556.
I think it's better to solve the issue by getting the same bolt velocity when suppressed and unsuppressed. You think it's better to lower both the suppressed and unsuppressed speeds so that the suppressed works like unsuppressed used to, and unsuppressed is lower than it originally was. Am I clear on that?
What carrier did you order?
Bcm auto
BufordTJustice
03-11-12, 19:18
I don't own one, but as I understand it, it's a basically a longer tube, spring, and buffer set to decrease the cyclic rate (mostly by allowing more time for the bcg to travel).
Can you explain how lowering the cyclic rate by the same value suppressed and not suppressed, rather, X unsuppressed and X+200rpm suppressed, is better than having X suppressed and also X unsuppressed?
A gas adjustment will allow for (in theory of course) an identical unsuppressed and suppressed cyclic rate. LaRue and Noveske both offer very nice adjustable regulators, has in your opinion Vltor came up with a better and more direct solution with the A5 system?
Because short of a magic spring (or actually, a progressive rate or switchable spring rate design), no buffer system out there is going to decrease JUST suppressed rate, it will decrease both unsupp and supp. In order to just cut one down you need to be able to adjust the gas volume/pressure.
I'm advocating an adjustable regulator in order to make all things equal. Imo, addressing it any other way is more of a band-aid fix. That's of course just my opinion. The A5 might be the best thing ever! That said... Only getting the bolt speed the same in every firing mode would be ideal. In 556, the only way to do that would be to use an adjustable block. As it was explained to me, 300blk was designed so that the subsonic rounds developed way more pressure faster than "needed" in order to make the sub and super rounds function the same to the weapon, this is a great idea, but not possible with 556.
I think it's better to solve the issue by getting the same bolt velocity when suppressed and unsuppressed. You think it's better to lower both the suppressed and unsuppressed speeds so that the suppressed works like unsuppressed used to, and unsuppressed is lower than it originally was. Am I clear on that?
I think you might want to do a forum search for some of Phreakish's posts. He is an engineer at Vltor and is one of the men behind the design of the A5 system.
There's more engineering going on inside of it than I suspect you realize. And, no, it does not 'equalize' the cyclic rate for suppressed and unsuppressed..though it does decrease the difference between the two and reduces both.
I would further advise you to read Phreakish's posts on page 10:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=95328&page=10
This is also a quote from Phreakish via MM:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1190419&postcount=149
And another great post:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1190545&postcount=154
It's very clear that the A5 recoil system is unique and that it does things to calm and stabilize the cyclic rate that no other stock system can do...even the rifle system.
Feel free to chime in once you've read-up.
though it does decrease the difference between the two
Really? It doesn't appear to:
H&K 416 stock spring & buffer (unsuppressed) = 923 RPM
H&K 416 stock spring & buffer (suppressed) = 1106 RPM
H&K 416 A5 Kit (standard weight buffer) (unsuppressed) = 850 RPM
H&K 416 A5 Kit (standard weight buffer) (suppressed) = 1026 RPM
H&K 416 A5H3 Kit (specialty buffer) (unsuppressed) = 801 RPM
H&K 416 A5H3 Kit (specialty buffer) (suppressed) = 1004 RPM
H&K 416 A5H4 Kit (specialty buffer) (unsuppressed) = 774 RPM
H&K 416 A5H4 Kit (specialty buffer) (suppressed) = 973 RPM
Differences: 183 stock, 190 A5 avg
If anything it appears to increase the difference in the relevant application (10.5"). Now, of course this is insignificant and within margin of error I'm sure. If the barrel length were longer I suspect the difference would be smaller, still within margin of error though, so I politely disagree with your claim.
I'm not discussing the benefits and issues of the A5 system. If you want to talk with me further on, feel free to PM me and not hijack the OP's thread.
My point is the good or bad, the A5 CAN NOT equalize the cyclic rate between suppressed and non. Only an adjustable gas system can do that. I feel that option is better esp for SBR. If it were a 14.5"+ I'd probably suggest the A5 too! But 10.5" DI is too short to not just address the problem directly imo.
BufordTJustice
03-11-12, 21:24
Really? It doesn't appear to:
H&K 416 stock spring & buffer (unsuppressed) = 923 RPM
H&K 416 stock spring & buffer (suppressed) = 1106 RPM
H&K 416 A5 Kit (standard weight buffer) (unsuppressed) = 850 RPM
H&K 416 A5 Kit (standard weight buffer) (suppressed) = 1026 RPM
H&K 416 A5H3 Kit (specialty buffer) (unsuppressed) = 801 RPM
H&K 416 A5H3 Kit (specialty buffer) (suppressed) = 1004 RPM
H&K 416 A5H4 Kit (specialty buffer) (unsuppressed) = 774 RPM
H&K 416 A5H4 Kit (specialty buffer) (suppressed) = 973 RPM
Differences: 183 stock, 190 A5 avg
If anything it appears to increase the difference in the relevant application (10.5"). Now, of course this is insignificant and within margin of error I'm sure. If the barrel length were longer I suspect the difference would be smaller, still within margin of error though, so I politely disagree with your claim.
I'm not discussing the benefits and issues of the A5 system. If you want to talk with me further on, feel free to PM me and not hijack the OP's thread.
My point is the good or bad, the A5 CAN NOT equalize the cyclic rate between suppressed and non. Only an adjustable gas system can do that. I feel that option is better esp for SBR. If it were a 14.5"+ I'd probably suggest the A5 too! But 10.5" DI is too short to not just address the problem directly imo.
Yeah, are you even aware that the HK416 uses a completely different buffer than a normal carbine buffer and that it weighs over 5 ounces? Also, that the HK uses a non standard carbine-format spring that has a much higher compressive load than a normal carbine spring?
Not to mention the inherent differences in how gas piston guns and DI guns operate when suppressed...
That's apples to oranges. You REALLY are gonna wanna do some reading before you start cherry picking numbers to 'prove' your point.
I highly recommend contacting the designer of the A5 system, who is active on this forum (Phreakish), before you go too far down the wrong road. I'm not going to do any more of your homework for you.
Friendly warning, brother.
Oh, and I never claimed that the A5 could equalize cyclic rates. You may need to read my posts more carefully before replying.
I know this appears to be hard for you to understand. However, you have admittedly no experience with the A5 so there is no way for you to know how it performs.
The bottom line is that almost everyone who has tried an A5 on their SBR (suppressed and unsuppressed) can tell the difference.
Personally I don't care what the difference is, what I care about is that the weapon performs as it should and thus far it appears to be doing its' job.
I don't own one, but as I understand it, it's a basically a longer tube, spring, and buffer set to decrease the cyclic rate (mostly by allowing more time for the bcg to travel).
Can you explain how lowering the cyclic rate by the same value suppressed and not suppressed, rather, X unsuppressed and X+200rpm suppressed, is better than having X suppressed and also X unsuppressed?
A gas adjustment will allow for (in theory of course) an identical unsuppressed and suppressed cyclic rate. LaRue and Noveske both offer very nice adjustable regulators, has in your opinion Vltor came up with a better and more direct solution with the A5 system?
Because short of a magic spring (or actually, a progressive rate or switchable spring rate design), no buffer system out there is going to decrease JUST suppressed rate, it will decrease both unsupp and supp. In order to just cut one down you need to be able to adjust the gas volume/pressure.
I'm advocating an adjustable regulator in order to make all things equal. Imo, addressing it any other way is more of a band-aid fix. That's of course just my opinion. The A5 might be the best thing ever! That said... Only getting the bolt speed the same in every firing mode would be ideal. In 556, the only way to do that would be to use an adjustable block. As it was explained to me, 300blk was designed so that the subsonic rounds developed way more pressure faster than "needed" in order to make the sub and super rounds function the same to the weapon, this is a great idea, but not possible with 556.
I think it's better to solve the issue by getting the same bolt velocity when suppressed and unsuppressed. You think it's better to lower both the suppressed and unsuppressed speeds so that the suppressed works like unsuppressed used to, and unsuppressed is lower than it originally was. Am I clear on that?
I know this appears to be hard for you to understand. However, you have admittedly no experience with the A5 so there is no way for you to know how it performs.
The bottom line is that almost everyone who has tried an A5 on their SBR (suppressed and unsuppressed) can tell the difference.
Personally I don't care what the difference is, what I care about is that the weapon performs as it should and thus far it appears to be doing its' job.
Since we're apparently ignoring questions and just posting tangents instead of responses...
The fact is, and adjustable regulator works to equalize and fix the gas system, something like an A5 could remove the symptoms without ever addressing the root issue. It's preference as long as it works.
It sounds like the OP is trying springs. I'd be really interested to see his results with an A5, it could make me a believer! :D I'll probably pick one up and try it at some point.
Good luck OP, do post results!!!
No, I just get tired of people taking a huge shit on something and they haven't even tried it. Until very recently (Noveske and LaRue) adjustable gas blocks were crap and unreliable.
Since we're apparently ignoring questions and just posting tangents instead of responses...
The fact is, and adjustable regulator works to equalize and fix the gas system, something like an A5 could remove the symptoms without ever addressing the root issue. It's preference as long as it works.
It sounds like the OP is trying springs. I'd be really interested to see his results with an A5, it could make me a believer! :D I'll probably pick one up and try it at some point.
Good luck OP, do post results!!!
justin_247
03-13-12, 05:58
Dude...
First of all, the HK416 is a *completely different weapon and operating system* than the one the user is discussing.
Also, these results show that it reduced the average cyclic rate by over 110 RPM. This means that the spring in the magazine has more time available to it to feed rounds into position, which means it'll help resolve issues where the bolt doesn't lock back on the last round or fails to strip a round from the magazine because its velocity is too high... a significant improvement.
Really? It doesn't appear to:
H&K 416 stock spring & buffer (unsuppressed) = 923 RPM
H&K 416 stock spring & buffer (suppressed) = 1106 RPM
H&K 416 A5 Kit (standard weight buffer) (unsuppressed) = 850 RPM
H&K 416 A5 Kit (standard weight buffer) (suppressed) = 1026 RPM
H&K 416 A5H3 Kit (specialty buffer) (unsuppressed) = 801 RPM
H&K 416 A5H3 Kit (specialty buffer) (suppressed) = 1004 RPM
H&K 416 A5H4 Kit (specialty buffer) (unsuppressed) = 774 RPM
H&K 416 A5H4 Kit (specialty buffer) (suppressed) = 973 RPM
Differences: 183 stock, 190 A5 avg
If anything it appears to increase the difference in the relevant application (10.5"). Now, of course this is insignificant and within margin of error I'm sure. If the barrel length were longer I suspect the difference would be smaller, still within margin of error though, so I politely disagree with your claim.
I'm not discussing the benefits and issues of the A5 system. If you want to talk with me further on, feel free to PM me and not hijack the OP's thread.
My point is the good or bad, the A5 CAN NOT equalize the cyclic rate between suppressed and non. Only an adjustable gas system can do that. I feel that option is better esp for SBR. If it were a 14.5"+ I'd probably suggest the A5 too! But 10.5" DI is too short to not just address the problem directly imo.
Until very recently (Noveske and LaRue) adjustable gas blocks were crap and unreliable.
Oh man, For Real?
What issues have you run into on LaRue's PST and/or Noveske's Switchblock? Have you owned either?
Apparently reading is a weak point. I said until recently(Noveske and LaRue) adjustable blocks were crap. That means gas blocks prior to their coming around. And yes I had a barrel (M249 style) with the Switchblock on it.
Oh man, For Real?
What issues have you run into on LaRue's PST and/or Noveske's Switchblock? Have you owned either?
Is the LaRue for sale? Or does it only come on their guns.
Can't seem to find it on their website
Nvm I see what they did there
Okay I got the auto carrier and blue spring in before heading into work today
Looks like this may have fixed the problem. Its still ejecting about 230 but not shooting near as far forward as it use to. Im fine with it being slightly overgassed as long as it is not inducing malfunctions
I got to run about 20 rounds through it. I loaded a couple in several magazines and it did not jam and locked open fine
Ill shoot more through it this weekend to see how it really is gunna go.
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