View Full Version : Blown up DDM4 (ammo mfg update)
http://i.imgur.com/5OLt0h.jpg
First post guys. long time lurker.
Range rifle had a KB. Customer was using a factory new box of HPR .223 ammunition. Minor wounds to the top of his hand, nearest the thumb. Rifle was running a vert grip and cust. was holding it broom handle fashion.
At the suggestion of a coworker who frequents this place I'm offering up the pictures for a possible analysis of what might have happened.
I forgot to get pictures of the case, but it was split in a similar fashion to the barrel, down to about the portion where a belt would sit on most magnum casings. Nearest we can tell from the evidence is that the round was overcharged. We've all but ruled out the possibility of a squib. Customer was relatively experienced with firearms and didn't say he heard any phut's or puff's and the gun cycled normally on the previous round.
The most interesting part was there was no evidence of damage anywhere else but the barrel. Bolt, receiver, even the DD free float quad rail were untouched. Looks like the fragmentation was just enough to break skin but not enough to damage the aluminum on the HG. Also, we did notice some copper ingrained in the portions where the split occurred on both sides of the split. I'm guessing the round deviated sideways, shredding and destroying itself in process of rubbing copper into the break.
2 more low quality pictures to follow. Sorry, I can not get more photos, as the rifle was shipped back to DD the following day.
http://i.imgur.com/OsYXIh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h2f4Jh.jpg
Be interesting to see what they say. Did you contact the ammo manufacturer as well?
Be interesting to see what they say. Did you contact the ammo manufacturer as well?
We have. They're working it out now.
Mauser KAR98K
03-11-12, 01:08
What grain/round was the ammo? How new was the weapon?
Mind disclosing the name of the ammo manufacturer?
wow that makes me want to do a little resurch and fined out how much preasure a m4 barrel can take. i would like to know how hot that round was. that would scare the shit out of me if that happend at the range. glad to hear he walked away with minor damage insted of major
undercharged round. bullet does not have enough gas to clear the barrel. becomes a blockage.
correct me if im wrong though
undercharged round. bullet does not have enough gas to clear the barrel. becomes a blockage.
correct me if im wrong though
that would be my best guess as well.. I don't think there's enough powder volume in a 5.56 round to pop a barrel like that... (without an obstruction of course... all bets are off with something lodged in the barrel)
I've been a reloader and shooter for over 25 years. It would be pretty tough to get that much powder in a 5.56 as long it's the proper powder for the 5.56. It would be possible to do it with the wrong powder. However that's highly unlikely to happen in a factory produced round. Overcharges are far more common in handgun rounds.
A squib will do that and so will a fouled barrel. I haven't been around a squib that cycled the action on an AR. I have been witness to a squib from a 7.62 in an HK 91. The guy didn't recognize the issue, yanked the charging handle to load another round, and kaboom.
At least no one got hurt seriously.
Interesting to hear what really happened or caused it.
That appears to me to be a round fired behind a squib.
If it was a powder/overcharged/wrong powder round with no obstructions in the barrel, most of the gas/pressure would be released behind the chamber and through the upper.
Who was the ammo manufacturer? You've named DD, why not the ammo?
I've been a reloader and shooter for over 25 years. It would be pretty tough to get that much powder in a 5.56 as long it's the proper powder for the 5.56. It would be possible to do it with the wrong powder. However that's highly unlikely to happen in a factory produced round. Overcharges are far more common in handgun rounds.
A squib will do that and so will a fouled barrel. I haven't been around a squib that cycled the action on an AR. I have been witness to a squib from a 7.62 in an HK 91. The guy didn't recognize the issue, yanked the charging handle to load another round, and kaboom.
Good timing to see this after we ordered our rifles, eh? :D
Who was the ammo manufacturer? You've named DD, why not the ammo?
^^^^^
Not necessarily. There was a company don't recall name that accidentally mixed some pistol powder in with their .223 loadings and the AR's in question went kaboom!
I've been a reloader and shooter for over 25 years. It would be pretty tough to get that much powder in a 5.56 as long it's the proper powder for the 5.56. It would be possible to do it with the wrong powder. However that's highly unlikely to happen in a factory produced round. Overcharges are far more common in handgun rounds.
A squib will do that and so will a fouled barrel. I haven't been around a squib that cycled the action on an AR. I have been witness to a squib from a 7.62 in an HK 91. The guy didn't recognize the issue, yanked the charging handle to load another round, and kaboom.
There was a thread on TOS whereas some Hornady Steel Match went high order and took an upper with it.
It always amazes me these typically result in only minor injuries.
Who was the ammo manufacturer? You've named DD, why not the ammo?
I asked the same question. The OP hasn't been back yet. Not everyone's nocturnal! Patience grasshoppa
Animal_Mother556
03-11-12, 07:37
How did the squib operate the bolt and load a fresh round? Would the squib have enough thrust to push the bullet JUST past the gas hole and operate the action?
Usually, these are caused by the shooter racking another round in manually...and not thinking to check the bore for obstructions...
Deputy Dan
03-11-12, 07:49
Not necessarily. There was a company don't recall name that accidentally mixed some pistol powder in with their .223 loadings and the AR's in question went kaboom!
IG
I think this is what you are referring to:
OFFICIAL RECALL NOTICE
East Alton, IL – Olin Corporation, through its Winchester Division, is recalling six (6) lots of its RANGER 223 Remington 64 Grain Power-Point (PP) centerfire rifle ammunition (Symbol Number RA223R2). Through extensive evaluation Winchester has determined the lots of RANGER Law Enforcement ammunition listed below may contain incorrect propellant. Incorrect propellant in this ammunition may cause firearm damage, rendering the firearm inoperable, and subject the shooter or bystanders to a risk of serious personal injury when fired. To determine if your ammunition is subject to this notice, review the Lot Number . . .
If the last four characters of the Lot Number are DK01, DK11, DK21, DK31, DK41 or DK51 immediately discontinue use and contact Winchester toll-free at 866-423-5224 to arrange for replacement ammunition and free UPS pick-up of the recalled ammunition.
If you have any questions concerning this RANGER Law Enforcement ammunition recall please call toll-free 866-423-5224, write to Winchester (600 Powder Mill Road, East Alton, IL 62024 Attn: RA223R2 Recall), or visit our website at www.winchester.com.
We used to have this in our ammo supply at work but not the lots mentioned.
I've been a reloader and shooter for over 25 years. It would be pretty tough to get that much powder in a 5.56 as long it's the proper powder for the 5.56. It would be possible to do it with the wrong powder. However that's highly unlikely to happen in a factory produced round. Overcharges are far more common in handgun rounds.
I'm not as senior a reloader as you are, but I was thinking the same thing.
This is curious because I'd expect a squib not to cycle the action and I know with the powders I use it would be difficult to over charge to the extent where that much damage was done.
Edit: That certainly has all the earmarks of a barrel obstruction of some kind. I'd almost expect there to be more damage aft of the chamber if it were an over charged round. He didn't leave his laser bore sight in did he? Glad no-one was injured.
A squib will do that and so will a fouled barrel. I haven't been around a squib that cycled the action on an AR. I have been witness to a squib from a 7.62 in an HK 91. The guy didn't recognize the issue, yanked the charging handle to load another round, and kaboom.
I'm not as senior a reloader as you are, but I was thinking the same thing.
This is curious because I'd expect a squib not to cycle the action and I know with the powders I use it would be difficult to over charge to the extent where that much damage was done. I wonder if it was a bad barrel?
I agree with these guys, I am surprised that the weapon cycled as well.
my dad made me deathly afraid of that situation when I was younger so I watch for it constantly.
USA Ammo was the one I was thinking about.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/543805_USA_Ammo_Goes_KABOOM_in_my_brand_new_Sig_Sauer_P556.html
IG
I think this is what you are referring to:
OFFICIAL RECALL NOTICE
East Alton, IL – Olin Corporation, through its Winchester Division, is recalling six (6) lots of its RANGER 223 Remington 64 Grain Power-Point (PP) centerfire rifle ammunition (Symbol Number RA223R2). Through extensive evaluation Winchester has determined the lots of RANGER Law Enforcement ammunition listed below may contain incorrect propellant. Incorrect propellant in this ammunition may cause firearm damage, rendering the firearm inoperable, and subject the shooter or bystanders to a risk of serious personal injury when fired. To determine if your ammunition is subject to this notice, review the Lot Number . . .
If the last four characters of the Lot Number are DK01, DK11, DK21, DK31, DK41 or DK51 immediately discontinue use and contact Winchester toll-free at 866-423-5224 to arrange for replacement ammunition and free UPS pick-up of the recalled ammunition.
If you have any questions concerning this RANGER Law Enforcement ammunition recall please call toll-free 866-423-5224, write to Winchester (600 Powder Mill Road, East Alton, IL 62024 Attn: RA223R2 Recall), or visit our website at www.winchester.com.
We used to have this in our ammo supply at work but not the lots mentioned.
of course, it's always possible that after the squib, the operator did not realize what had happened and charged the weapon. always better to check the weapon after an oddity.
brzusa.1911
03-11-12, 10:20
Was the barrel really hot, the customer dumping mags when that happened?
of course, it's always possible that after the squib, the operator did not realize what had happened and charged the weapon. always better to check the weapon after an oddity.
This would be my guess since there was no damage to the BCG or upper receiver.
thopkins22
03-11-12, 11:13
It has to be a barrel obstruction of some kind, because when a round has been charged with pistol powder(there's simply not enough volume in the case to double charge) or the bullet is set way too deep and raises pressure the bullet never makes it that far down the barrel before the pressure gets high enough to start ripping shit apart.
The receiver is intact, the bolt is intact, and the damage to the barrel is consistent with an obstruction. I'd wager relatively big money that there was nothing abnormal about the round that did it, just something abnormal with the one that came before it.
A range rifle with an unknown history as far as how hot the barrel has been -- if it has been overheated ONCE the molecular structure of that steel is permanently changed and stressed (not for the better).
Combine that with a single over-charged or squib load event and you will get a split barrel exactly as photographed.
I'm thinking squib too. Make sure to update us when you can.
Sure looks like a barrel obstruction to me.
Doesn't an over pressure round failure in an AR blow the extractor and take out the upper too in most cases? Just trying to learn here.
I am voting for the squib round, followed by a live round theory. I saw this happen to an XM-218 (Aviation M2 .50 Cal) many years ago. In our instance the barrel swelled so big against the barrel shroud the weapons could not be disassembled.
brzusa.1911
03-11-12, 14:25
I think a squib would've sent the pressure back into the upper receiver and blown things there as well. My guess is that over/under (not sure) pressure with overheated barrel. I've seen (from TOS) pictures of barrels just like that ruptured because of overheating when full auto - I DO UNDERSTAND the user didn't mention full auto, BUT maybe dumping magazines overheating the barrel + the faulty pressure round....
I doubt it was a squib, if it was a squib wouldn't the owner be able to find two rounds lodged in the barrel?
The two squib rifles I have seen destroyed, the aforementioned HK and a M700 Rem bolt, shot everything clear of the barrel.
Good point on the squib sending pressure into the extractor also.
Could it possibly of just been a bad barrel that eventually split from use heating, cooling and other stresses over time. Not sure if this is possible but curious...
I am sure that Daniel Defense will have a way to figure this all out. Hope the OP lets us know what happened, as well the brand of ammo.
Suwannee Tim
03-11-12, 18:43
I've seen three split rifle barrels, all due to obstructions. Two were laser bore sight devices and the third was a bullet left by a squib. I have seen two split pistol barrels, both caused by squib induced obstructions. This has made a believer out of me for checking for certain there is no bore obstruction after a misfire or malfunction. If I don't see the bullet in the cartridge as it comes out of the gun when I clear it, I check the bore to make sure there is no obstruction. Same when I begin shooting at the range. I put an eyeball on the bore, make sure it is clear.
Wow. Good to hear the person wasn't hurt badly.
I'd love to hear what DD says once they have had a look at it.
Sorry for the suspense Gentlemen.
I'm going to say right out, as a professional courtesy, I will not name the manufacturer. They are a start up company who are making a great product that has been mostly flawless for countless thousands of rounds. I don't want a simple post damaging their reputation when they're been amazing at making things right as we make other reports about QC (minor things like crimping and the occasional sideways primer.) There are always mistakes in mass production, this was one of them. I will say that all of their brass are made in house and are all factory new. Although they have been known to use Hornady bullets so I'm not sure if the bullets themselves are their own.
If you find this hypocritical; The rifle was not the point of failure, it seems, almost without question that it was ammo related. DD has a solid reputation for an outstanding product. Nobody would question their rifle after reading here. They might question the ammo.
as for the customers responsibilities to the rifles operation before the malfunction: He was still under his first magazine on the gun, which is only capable of semi automatic fire. He had been advised against rapid fire and before he came out to report the problem I did not note the sound of rapid fire. He will not admit (if such event did occur) that he thought anything strange before the KB, nor will he admit to having to cycle the rifle by charging handle before the fatal shot.
Everything seems copacetic, but people here seem to be of the opinion that constantly heating the barrel may bring on tolerance stacking to the point of failure. I have a rudimentary understanding of metalurgy and that makes sense, but this would be the first I heard of it. Maybe because of the pencil profile under the HG's? made it more susceptible to such an event? What is the likelihood that the bullet passed just beyond the gas port, allowing the bolt to be cycled, yet still remain a squib?
"EFFECT OF EXCESS HEAT ON THE BARREL:
"BARREL STRUCTURAL FAILURE: In addition to increasing the malfunction rate, excess heat weakens the material of the barrel.
"The barrel of the M4 carbine is made of chrome-molybdenum-vanadium steel, and is chrome lined. It is a high quality grade of steel capable of long service. This steel tolerates high temperature well. At a temperature of approximately 1100 degrees, however, the structure of this alloy undergoes a permanent transformation that substantially, and permanently, alters it. The steel becomes prone to rupture under high pressure. It may not fail at the time of overheating, but instead may fail at a later date and far lower temperature. This confuses the user as to the reason for failure."
I'm going to say right out, as a professional courtesy, I will not name the manufacturer.
IMO, possibly saving a life is a little more important than saving a company's rep.
Some of us could have other rounds from that batch.
Shagnasty,
If the ammo was the problem, it would be nice to know so that we can avoid having the same problem in our rifles. If the ammo company is reputable and stand by their product, and identify and fix their mistakes like an instant recall of the faulty lot, people can forgive one mistake. If they don't do the right thing, and turn out faulty products, then we need to know so that someone doesn't get hurt using their products.
IMO, possibly saving a life is a little more important than saving a company's rep.
Some of us could have other rounds from that batch.
Yeah this crap is important. WTF I don't want to blow up a Noveske because of some manf. crap ammo mistake.
:confused:
IMO this should not have been posted since information (ammo manufacturer) is being withheld. Either disclose everything, or disclose nothing at all.
I do find it odd you were more than willing to throw DD under the bus off the bat in the thread title no less, then won't disclose the ammo manufacturer for whatever reason.
What is the likelihood that the bullet passed just beyond the gas port, allowing the bolt to be cycled, yet still remain a squib?
It's possible, but did anyone rod the barrel and try to determine where the obstruction is?
"EFFECT OF HEAT ON THE BARREL: In addition to increasing the malfunction rate, excess heat weakens the material of the barrel.
The barrel of the M4 carbine is made of chrome-molybdenum-vanadium steel, and is chrome lined. It is a high quality grade of steel capable of long service. This steel tolerates high temperature well. At a temperature of approximately 1100 degrees, however, the structure of this alloy undergoes a permanent transformation that substantially, and permanently, alters it. The steel becomes prone to rupture under high pressure. It may not fail at the time of overheating, but instead may fail at a later date and far lower temperature. This confuses the user as to the reason for failure."
Thank you, sinister...great info. I'm assuming to achieve a barrel temp of 1100°F, you would have to go 'full retard' at the range or be in a firefight for your life?
• new start up company
• makes their own brass
• uses hornady in some loads
Sounds like HPR
They make a great product, and this is not indicative of overall quality.
Only if you are reasonably certain that it was an ammo problem and not a bore obstruction:
You need to post all information you have about the ammunition, including lot number if available. I'm not sure if you mentioned this but you need to get in touch with the manufacturer so they can check things on their end also.
If others have ammunition from the same batch and are able to identify problems, the company can be notified and the recall / notification process you can begin. Sure, it might just be that one round. Or it might not be.
You say you won't name the manufacturer out of professional courtesy. If you help others ID any potential problems before they have a kaboom themselves you might save a company from a lawsuit. Or you might save somebody's eyesight. That seems more courteous to me.
This isn't like a misaligned FSB or some other minor problem that's not worth the risk of damaging a company's name over. It's a potential safety issue that you can't put a price tag on.
Sorry for the suspense Gentlemen.
I'm going to say right out, as a professional courtesy, I will not name the manufacturer. They are a start up company who are making a great product that has been mostly flawless for countless thousands of rounds. I don't want a simple post damaging their reputation when they're been amazing at making things right as we make other reports about QC (minor things like crimping and the occasional sideways primer.) There are always mistakes in mass production, this was one of them. I will say that all of their brass are made in house and are all factory new. Although they have been known to use Hornady bullets so I'm not sure if the bullets themselves are their own.
If you find this hypocritical; The rifle was not the point of failure, it seems, almost without question that it was ammo related. DD has a solid reputation for an outstanding product. Nobody would question their rifle after reading here. They might question the ammo.
as for the customers responsibilities to the rifles operation before the malfunction: He was still under his first magazine on the gun, which is only capable of semi automatic fire. He had been advised against rapid fire and before he came out to report the problem I did not note the sound of rapid fire. He will not admit (if such event did occur) that he thought anything strange before the KB, nor will he admit to having to cycle the rifle by charging handle before the fatal shot.
Everything seems copacetic, but people here seem to be of the opinion that constantly heating the barrel may bring on tolerance stacking to the point of failure. I have a rudimentary understanding of metalurgy and that makes sense, but this would be the first I heard of it. Maybe because of the pencil profile under the HG's? made it more susceptible to such an event? What is the likelihood that the bullet passed just beyond the gas port, allowing the bolt to be cycled, yet still remain a squib?
Thank you, sinister...great info. I'm assuming to achieve a barrel temp of 1100°F, you would have to go 'full retard' at the range or be in a firefight for your life?
+1 on that. We would run 2-4 mags on full auto in basic training with the Colt M-16 and our company never had an issue. Plus, there is no telling how many thousands of rounds had been run through those old Colt's before they were issued to us and never had a rifle go kaboom. I do 1-3 mag dumps on my DDM4 almost every time I go to the range with no issues what so ever. I would think you would have to be firing bat shit crazy through a case of ammo to heat the barrel up enough to damage it. I would like to know who the ammo manufacturer is in this situation as well!
You're right guys, just trying to do the "right" thing. I guess you do have to break eggs to make omelet's.
Company was HPR. It was their standard 55 gr .223 loading. I will get a lot number when I head back in to work tomorrow. Please understand I was not trying to be sheisty. I've just seen these things devolve in to a bash fest on a focal point.
HPR has been notified about the problem. They're checking what they can until DD gets back to us on a suspected cause.
Please understand guys, HPR is building a great rep in the shooting community. Their ammunition inspectors have been in touch with us wanting to know what problems we are seeing and in the next batch we see a marked improvement.
I do find it odd you were more than willing to throw DD under the bus off the bat in the thread title no less, then won't disclose the ammo manufacturer for whatever reason.
I don't see this as a DD fault was my reasoning. The barrel was either overheated (a serious possibility seeing as the rifle has come back so hot the upper was completely untouchable) or the ammo was to blame.
I love DD, I think they are really top tier and was not trying to throw them under anything. My aplogies, Gents.
Traveshamockery
03-11-12, 23:52
Not necessarily. There was a company don't recall name that accidentally mixed some pistol powder in with their .223 loadings and the AR's in question went kaboom!
USAAmmo. I have 600 rounds of their 9mm that I'm now terrified to shoot.
USAAmmo. I have 600 rounds of their 9mm that I'm now terrified to shoot.
Send it to me :-) I'll properly dispose of it for you.
But in all seriousness. I wouldn't let one issue cloud my judgement of the company. HPR or DD, regardless of who's at fault. (It looks to be ammo) but shit happens. I think it's more important what the company does after the fact that tells more about the company. If I see an accident happen (which I have) and a company say, "eh, whatever" They will forever lose my business. But if they stand up and work hard to fix the issue, I'll go the mountain top for them.
Please keep us informed OP.
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-12-12, 09:39
You're right guys, just trying to do the "right" thing. I guess you do have to break eggs to make omelet's.
Company was HPR. It was their standard 55 gr .223 loading. I will get a lot number when I head back in to work tomorrow. Please understand I was not trying to be sheisty. I've just seen these things devolve in to a bash fest on a focal point.
HPR has been notified about the problem. They're checking what they can until DD gets back to us on a suspected cause.
Please understand guys, HPR is building a great rep in the shooting community. Their ammunition inspectors have been in touch with us wanting to know what problems we are seeing and in the next batch we see a marked improvement.
Glad you put all the info out there. I hope they do something for the owner of the weapon.
Suwannee Tim
03-12-12, 10:06
....I have 600 rounds of their 9mm that I'm now terrified to shoot.
I wouldn't worry that much. Shoot it. If a round goes "poof" or "click" or "phuuut" or something other than "bang" make sure the bore is clear. Except for maybe 22 LR, cartridges that stick a bullet in the bore are not going to cycle the action. This is the big honking red flag, the action didn't cycle. When you clear the weapon make sure the dud or jammed or whatever cartridge contains a bullet. If not and maybe even if it did, check the bore for an obstruction.
The barrel was either overheated (a serious possibility seeing as the rifle has come back so hot the upper was completely untouchable) or the ammo was to blame.
Purely inductive reasoning but this looks like a clue.
Purely inductive reasoning but this looks like a clue.
It's a range gun. The thing is being rented by 18 year olds who load and shoot as fast as they can without being chastised.
OTOH, We've run a Bushmaster, S&W M&P and a POF to the same temps and never had any issues. do you think barrel profile has much to do with it? or was it luck?
You're right guys, just trying to do the "right" thing. I guess you do have to break eggs to make omelet's.
Company was HPR. It was their standard 55 gr .223 loading. I will get a lot number when I head back in to work tomorrow. Please understand I was not trying to be sheisty. I've just seen these things devolve in to a bash fest on a focal point.
HPR has been notified about the problem. They're checking what they can until DD gets back to us on a suspected cause.
Please understand guys, HPR is building a great rep in the shooting community. Their ammunition inspectors have been in touch with us wanting to know what problems we are seeing and in the next batch we see a marked improvement.
+1...you did the right thing.
It's a range gun. The thing is being rented by 18 year olds who load and shoot as fast as they can without being chastised.
OTOH, We've run a Bushmaster, S&W M&P and a POF to the same temps and never had any issues. do you think barrel profile has much to do with it? or was it luck?
How would you know unless you have a recording thermocouple attached to the barrel that tells you there's been a change in the barrel alloy at the molecular level?
SOCOM's solution was to use a thicker (M4A1 SOPMOD) barrel. It doesn't change the fact the steel changes once the barrel steel temp goes over 1100 Fahrenheit.
At the SF CQB School at Bragg in the 80s we were issued five 30 round mags. Once you emptied your mags the (standard barrel) carbine was grounded to cool while you went back to the ammo point to reload.
We shot lots of double and triple taps and carbine-to-pistol transitions, which I'm guessing keeps heat down to acceptable sustained rate-of-fire temps (no retard / fantasy mag dumps-to-do-mag dumps punishment). I've never seen a GI barrel otherwise fail.
lifebreath
03-12-12, 11:56
1) Firing behind a squib
or
2) A structural flaw in the barrel steel
I can't see an overcharged round splitting the barrel like that, although I could be wrong. Almost invariably, an overcharged round is going to create failure at the lugs/bolt and blow up the upper receiver. If it was not from a squib, the barrel could have had a preexisting flaw in the steel that was only exposed upon repeated stress. Nothing is perfect and HP/MPI testing could miss a steel integrity problem.
It's a range gun. The thing is being rented by 18 year olds who load and shoot as fast as they can without being chastised.
OTOH, We've run a Bushmaster, S&W M&P and a POF to the same temps and never had any issues. do you think barrel profile has much to do with it? or was it luck?
I think if barrel heating was a real problem the military would be bursting barrels daily. Be serious a semi auto is not going to have this problem. It has to be an obstruction. The shooter/renter didn't admit to making a mistake, I am so surprised.
SW-Shooter
03-12-12, 15:15
It's a range gun. The thing is being rented by 18 year olds who load and shoot as fast as they can without being chastised.
OTOH, We've run a Bushmaster, S&W M&P and a POF to the same temps and never had any issues. do you think barrel profile has much to do with it? or was it luck?
I wouldn't insure this weapon if I was Daniel Defense because they have no liability due to the commercial use by idiots and dolts. Saying Daniel Defense has any culpability is a travesty and I hope you aren't looking towards them for a solution to your problem. You just seems to eager to dig at anything other than you, the ammo, or the shooter causing this failure.
SW-Shooter
03-12-12, 15:25
Sorry for the suspense Gentlemen.
I'm going to say right out, as a professional courtesy, I will not name the manufacturer. They are a start up company who are making a great product that has been mostly flawless for countless thousands of rounds. I don't want a simple post damaging their reputation when they're been amazing at making things right as we make other reports about QC (minor things like crimping and the occasional sideways primer.) There are always mistakes in mass production, this was one of them. I will say that all of their brass are made in house and are all factory new. Although they have been known to use Hornady bullets so I'm not sure if the bullets themselves are their own.
If you find this hypocritical; The rifle was not the point of failure, it seems, almost without question that it was ammo related. DD has a solid reputation for an outstanding product. Nobody would question their rifle after reading here. They might question the ammo.
as for the customers responsibilities to the rifles operation before the malfunction: He was still under his first magazine on the gun, which is only capable of semi automatic fire. He had been advised against rapid fire and before he came out to report the problem I did not note the sound of rapid fire. He will not admit (if such event did occur) that he thought anything strange before the KB, nor will he admit to having to cycle the rifle by charging handle before the fatal shot.
Everything seems copacetic, but people here seem to be of the opinion that constantly heating the barrel may bring on tolerance stacking to the point of failure. I have a rudimentary understanding of metalurgy and that makes sense, but this would be the first I heard of it. Maybe because of the pencil profile under the HG's? made it more susceptible to such an event? What is the likelihood that the bullet passed just beyond the gas port, allowing the bolt to be cycled, yet still remain a squib?
So which is it, "It's a range gun. The thing is being rented by 18 year olds who load and shoot as fast as they can without being chastised." or "He had been advised against rapid fire and before he came out to report the problem I did not note the sound of rapid fire."
How much does an inexperienced shooter actually know about weapon or ammunition failure. Let alone what a squib load sounds or feels like?
I'm not buying what you're selling. You are all over the place, but something isn't copacetic. Something stinks here and it isn't coming from Daniel Defense. As for the ammunition manufacturer, everything you've stated in your first paragraph points to them and an inexperienced, unsupervised shooter. Liability lies within Shagnasty. I sincerely hope someone that represents DD sees this and acts accordingly.
Doc Safari
03-12-12, 15:33
I think if barrel heating was a real problem the military would be bursting barrels daily. Be serious a semi auto is not going to have this problem.
I tend to agree. I'd think it would be very difficult to heat up a barrel enough to damage it with semi-auto fire unless you just stood there dumping mag after mag after mag with no break.
I tend to agree. I'd think it would be very difficult to heat up a barrel enough to damage it with semi-auto fire unless you just stood there dumping mag after mag after mag with no break.
I just watched a video of a guy doing a 4 mag dump, 30 round mags. He then took the temp of the barrel it was right around 300 degrees. I don't believe that is hot enough to damage a barrel. The gas block was only a few degrees hotter.
Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Z_Zv2ue-w
OilyDischarge
03-12-12, 23:51
For what it's worth, these guys ran a Colt until the gas tube melted. Said the barrel was OK. Seems like you wouldn't be able to heat up a DDM4 that hot in semiautomatic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
So which is it, "It's a range gun. The thing is being rented by 18 year olds who load and shoot as fast as they can without being chastised." or "He had been advised against rapid fire and before he came out to report the problem I did not note the sound of rapid fire."
How much does an inexperienced shooter actually know about weapon or ammunition failure. Let alone what a squib load sounds or feels like?
I'm not buying what you're selling. You are all over the place, but something isn't copacetic. Something stinks here and it isn't coming from Daniel Defense. As for the ammunition manufacturer, everything you've stated in your first paragraph points to them and an inexperienced, unsupervised shooter. Liability lies within Shagnasty. I sincerely hope someone that represents DD sees this and acts accordingly.
I'm going to ask that you re-read my posts. I never once said this was Daniel Defense's problem. We sent it in for repair work on our dime. DD knows this is being used as a range gun. You think I had in mind that I would take down DD, who has one of the most solid reputations of manufacturers you could ask for? Please. I brought this topic to the boards as we were all stumped and failure analysis is an interesting topic for me. I don't appreciate you trying to call me out on some bogus assumption that this was an attempt to dig at daniel defense. I mentioned other manufacturers to raise the topic of barrel profile and durability. Not EVERYONE vs. DD. I think you're making mountains out of mole hills and need to re-read my posts in a less sinister tone. most of what I posted were questions and information that allows people to draw conclusions.
I don't think barrel heat would be the issue on a simi rifle. I have run 7 to 9 mags through my M16 in a row in training more than a few times, it gets to hot to hold with out a glove on my supporting hand. These are not "mag dumps" just lots of close range fire in double and tripple taps. I am not doubting the retardation of people who rent an ar just to dump a mag but I doubt that many of them show up with 9 mags and a case of ammo.
I have seen a couple rifles Kaboom, every one had a blockage of some sort.
Thanks for posting the ammo mfg, keep us updated on what is figured out.
OilyDischarge
03-13-12, 00:52
Have you got any idea how many rounds have been through this gun up to this point? Other parts needed to be replaced on it before this incident? How often are your range guns cleaned and inspected for damage or wear? This may not be a case of the ammo or gun manufacturer at fault. This may not even be the customers fault. Putting a damaged gun in the hands of anyone, especially an inexperienced shooter is the range's fault.
I am guessing that there was some type of bore obstruction that caused this to happen.
I am guessing that there was some type of bore obstruction that caused this to happen.
It damn near has to be.
Isn't it possible for a squib round to lodge just pass the gas port upon firing and the weapon to actually cycle another round, however violently, then another round is fired and this is the result?
Just my opinion of course.
SW-Shooter
03-13-12, 14:08
I'm going to ask that you re-read my posts. I never once said this was Daniel Defense's problem. We sent it in for repair work on our dime. DD knows this is being used as a range gun. You think I had in mind that I would take down DD, who has one of the most solid reputations of manufacturers you could ask for? Please. I brought this topic to the boards as we were all stumped and failure analysis is an interesting topic for me. I don't appreciate you trying to call me out on some bogus assumption that this was an attempt to dig at daniel defense. I mentioned other manufacturers to raise the topic of barrel profile and durability. Not EVERYONE vs. DD. I think you're making mountains out of mole hills and need to re-read my posts in a less sinister tone. most of what I posted were questions and information that allows people to draw conclusions.
Let me preface my comments by stating I've read every single post more than once. You came here trying to find a way to get this damaged firearm repaired or replaced without incurring any cost. It's your reading comprehension that needs to be looked at. You posted that 1. "it's a range gun, shot by 18 years old that shoot and load as fast as they can without being chastised". 2."OTOH, We've run a Bushmaster, S&W M&P and a POF to the same temps and never had any issues. do you think barrel profile has much to do with it? or was it luck?". It sounds like you are fishing for blame(what are the other guns barrel profile, usage?). and finally 3. You used loads from a company that you've obviously had issues with before, you didn't want to name them at first. Then you name dropped when you realize it wasn't the rifle that failed. It very well is a load issue, but that's only 1% of the problem. The other 99% is the inexperienced, unsupervised shooter that you admit letting them shoot and load as fast as they can. When you allow people to shoot a firearm in any manner they want, you can bet something can and will go wrong. We haven't even touched upon the maintenance performed on a rifle with Lord knows what abuse, round count, or proper break in. There are simply too man variables that point at the owner of the rifle.
I guarantee your shooter experienced a bore obstruction (from an admitted mistreated range gun, an inexperienced shooter, and lack of supervision), didn't realize it and pulled the trigger on a live round with the bore obstructed. Perhaps the rifle had not been cleaned from numerous range sessions, where it was shot with impunity. All of those factors is why I believe that the range, and not Daniel Defense, or the ammunition manufacturer, is liable for the damages. You could even go as far to say the inexperienced shooter is at fault. By your own admission you allow these shooters to shoot as they please (first paragraph), the M4 style carbine is not a plaything, it is a weapon and you failed to ensure the end users knew that. You came here fishing for a cause of failure, you've caught the answer and don't like it. Frankly, I'm surprised other members didn't call you out on it. I hold no ill will here, I'm merely calling it like I see it, the proof is in the posts.
Animal_Mother556
03-13-12, 14:58
Isn't it possible for a squib round to lodge just pass the gas port upon firing and the weapon to actually cycle another round, however violently, then another round is fired and this is the result?
I asked this earlier, and would love to know. My question was "IS it possible..." not "ISN'T it possible..."
..because I don't really know if it is or isn't possible. My gut is telling me that the physics aren't there. If there is JUUUUST enough pressure to get the bullet past the gas hole, with enough left over the cycle the action...I would think that there would be enough to push the bullet out.
Animal_Mother556
03-13-12, 15:03
Let me preface my comments by stating I've read every single post more than once. You came here trying to find a way to get this damaged firearm repaired or replaced without incurring any cost. It's your reading comprehension that needs to be looked at. You posted that 1. "it's a range gun, shot by 18 years old that shoot and load as fast as they can without being chastised". 2."OTOH, We've run a Bushmaster, S&W M&P and a POF to the same temps and never had any issues. do you think barrel profile has much to do with it? or was it luck?". It sounds like you are fishing for blame(what are the other guns barrel profile, usage?). and finally 3. You used loads from a company that you've obviously had issues with before, you didn't want to name them at first. Then you name dropped when you realize it wasn't the rifle that failed. It very well is a load issue, but that's only 1% of the problem. The other 99% is the inexperienced, unsupervised shooter that you admit letting them shoot and load as fast as they can. When you allow people to shoot a firearm in any manner they want, you can bet something can and will go wrong. We haven't even touched upon the maintenance performed on a rifle with Lord knows what abuse, round count, or proper break in. There are simply too man variables that point at the owner of the rifle.
I guarantee your shooter experienced a bore obstruction (from an admitted mistreated range gun, an inexperienced shooter, and lack of supervision), didn't realize it and pulled the trigger on a live round with the bore obstructed. Perhaps the rifle had not been cleaned from numerous range sessions, where it was shot with impunity. All of those factors is why I believe that the range, and not Daniel Defense, or the ammunition manufacturer, is liable for the damages. You could even go as far to say the inexperienced shooter is at fault. By your own admission you allow these shooters to shoot as they please (first paragraph), the M4 style carbine is not a plaything, it is a weapon and you failed to ensure the end users knew that. You came here fishing for a cause of failure, you've caught the answer and don't like it. Frankly, I'm surprised other members didn't call you out on it. I hold no ill will here, I'm merely calling it like I see it, the proof is in the posts.
Sir......Does this mean that Ann Margret is NOT coming?
Ga Red Devil
03-13-12, 15:04
I have never seen a barrel split like that without some bolt or receiver damage. Granted, I can count on two hands the number of "kabooms/oops sorry about your hand" I have seen. Mostly, M60 and SAW issues. I imagine DD QC folks will determine what, where, and why pretty quickly.
Since I am far from an SME, it is always educational to see things like this. Thanks for sharing. Please post once you get feedback from DD.
I have never seen a barrel split like that without some bolt or receiver damage. Granted, I can count on two hands the number of "kabooms/oops sorry about your hand" I have seen. Mostly, M60 and SAW issues. I imagine DD QC folks will determine what, where, and why pretty quickly.
Since I am far from an SME, it is always educational to see things like this. Thanks for sharing. Please post once you get feedback from DD.
I was thinking the same thing. I haven't seen a weapon that split just the barrel either. There had to be some sort of obstruction and an experienced shooter more than likely would have noticed a misfire and I would like to believe the action would not run enough to cycle the next round on it's own.
SW-Shooter
03-13-12, 16:03
I was thinking the same thing. I haven't seen a weapon that split just the barrel either. There had to be some sort of obstruction and an experienced shooter more than likely would have noticed a misfire and I would like to believe the action would not run enough to cycle the next round on it's own.
And now the others see the light...
thopkins22
03-13-12, 16:36
SW-Shooter, I think you're way off base. Not about your assessment that it was an obstruction...but about the intention of his posts.
He didn't bash DD, he did say that they'll be looking at it. He even implied that he believed it was an ammunition issue and most certainly NOT a rifle issue, from his(unedited I might add) second post.
If you find this hypocritical; The rifle was not the point of failure, it seems, almost without question that it was ammo related. DD has a solid reputation for an outstanding product. Nobody would question their rifle after reading here. They might question the ammo.
There are in fact people on this board that need called out, this gentleman is not one of them...or at least not based on this thread. Particularly since he has named the ammunition company.
SW-Shooter
03-13-12, 17:40
SW-Shooter, I think you're way off base. Not about your assessment that it was an obstruction...but about the intention of his posts.
He didn't bash DD, he did say that they'll be looking at it. He even implied that he believed it was an ammunition issue and most certainly NOT a rifle issue, from his(unedited I might add) second post.
There are in fact people on this board that need called out, this gentleman is not one of them...or at least not based on this thread. Particularly since he has named the ammunition company.
He didn't make that statement until page 3, well after many others had made their observations. He knew at that time he couldn't blame DD, or why didn't he put that tidbit in his initial post. I think that him calling anyone other than his own company at fault is where I have an issue. A policy that just puts the weapon in the hand of an inexperienced shooter and let them "have at it" is reckless. Like I said I've read everything several times, he didn't stop FISHING until page 3. Incendiary title to boot. A better title would have been "we let noobs blow up perfectly good rifles".
I think if barrel heating was a real problem the military would be bursting barrels daily. Be serious a semi auto is not going to have this problem. It has to be an obstruction. The shooter/renter didn't admit to making a mistake, I am so surprised.
Exactly.
Or incorrect powder (perhaps compressed, too).
SW-Shooter, I think you're way off base. Not about your assessment that it was an obstruction...but about the intention of his posts.
He didn't bash DD, he did say that they'll be looking at it. He even implied that he believed it was an ammunition issue and most certainly NOT a rifle issue, from his(unedited I might add) second post.
There are in fact people on this board that need called out, this gentleman is not one of them...or at least not based on this thread. Particularly since he has named the ammunition company.
Thank you.
SW-Shooter, I don't feed trolls and I still feel like there is information to be gleaned from this thread. I'm not going to let you derail this into some flame war. You have my reply. your satisfaction with it is out of my hands. DD was never blamed here. the fact that their name is in the title is relevant because it is in fact the manufacturer of the rifle. Take it as you may. I am finished.
Sorry I haven't been able to get the lot number yet guys, work has me training 2 new RO's and my time is short. Tomorrow I should be able to get in as it is my day off and see what it was.
The barrel obstruction hypothesis seems correct. Several people who manufacture firearms have been through and I asked them to proffer an opinion. They seem to agree that if it was an over charge it would have destroyed the receiver too. We are still waiting on word from DD what they hypothesize. We have changed ammo lots and HPR sold us some match grade ammunition to sell for that purpose at a discount rate equivalent to the plain jane load we had. As I said, solid dudes working to fix a faulty product and I have much respect for them in that matter.
Wow! that's a nasty KB for sure. I have to agree with the obstruction theory. Thanks for posting this.
He didn't make that statement until page 3, well after many others had made their observations. He knew at that time he couldn't blame DD, or why didn't he put that tidbit in his initial post. I think that him calling anyone other than his own company at fault is where I have an issue. A policy that just puts the weapon in the hand of an inexperienced shooter and let them "have at it" is reckless. Like I said I've read everything several times, he didn't stop FISHING until page 3. Incendiary title to boot. A better title would have been "we let noobs blow up perfectly good rifles".
Actually he made this statement on page 2 post #38. Well before page 3.
"If you find this hypocritical; The rifle was not the point of failure, it seems, almost without question that it was ammo related. DD has a solid reputation for an outstanding product. Nobody would question their rifle after reading here. They might question the ammo"
The title of the thread isn't incendiary at all. I read this thread when it was originally posted and before anyone had even commented on it and didn't come away with him as throwing DD under the buss at all. As many others have put forth it probably was an obstruction and the OP's comments to those observations has been to concur with them.
I'm interested to see what actually comes back on the cause and what was actually wrong with that batch of ammo.
Wow that's scary. Glad no one was seriously hurt
Actually he made this statement on page 2 post #38. Well before page 3.
"If you find this hypocritical; The rifle was not the point of failure, it seems, almost without question that it was ammo related. DD has a solid reputation for an outstanding product. Nobody would question their rifle after reading here. They might question the ammo"
The title of the thread isn't incendiary at all. I read this thread when it was originally posted and before anyone had even commented on it and didn't come away with him as throwing DD under the buss at all. As many others have put forth it probably was an obstruction and the OP's comments to those observations has been to concur with them.
I'm interested to see what actually comes back on the cause and what was actually wrong with that batch of ammo.
Would you guys give it up.
I don't know what type of range this gun was used at but offer a suggestion on a possible obstruction. Could it be possible that the gun was dropped barrel down into the ground and that dirt was jammed into the barrel tight enough to cause the problem? Just throwing out a suggestion.
I do also believe that DD should not be held responsible, maybe not even the ammo maker but the responsibility lies in operator error exclusively.
For what it's worth, these guys ran a Colt until the gas tube melted. Said the barrel was OK. Seems like you wouldn't be able to heat up a DDM4 that hot in semiautomatic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I still don't understand why people say the gas tube melted in that video.
TacticalSledgehammer
03-14-12, 18:27
Watching people get mad over a brand being tarnished is always comical.
I'm interested to hear the official results.
sorry guys, been... complicated the past few days. personal stuff.
anyhow, lot number was 2231122811 inspected by #13. We have no updates from either manufacturer yet. will respond in this thread when that time comes.
TonyTacoma
03-18-12, 13:08
Interestingly, I purchased 500 rounds from the same company and had a case rupture at the base. Blew lots of smoke and powder out of the receiver but appeared to do no damage to my almost new noveske.
Didn't contact the company but have not used any more ammo from the case.
The barrel should not be the first part to fail.
But I see that sinister has covered this in detail.
OilyDischarge
03-23-12, 11:24
Agreed. I want to know what failed prior to this.
I still don't understand why people say the gas tube melted in that video.
Because it did. That video is the second in a series of durability tests where they fired an M4 with the government profile barrel until the barrel burst. They then tested an M4 with the SOCOM profile barrel and the gas tube broke before the barrel did. The rifle with the SOCOM barrel was still operational, although it was in bolt action mode.
ZekeLuvs1911
03-27-12, 22:24
Been following this thread as a lurker. No word yet I presume??
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