View Full Version : Neighborhood watch captain shoots unarmed teen in FL
This posted yet? The surface info, looks bad for the neighborhood watch captain, but as always, I'd like to see more facts and less emotions here. There's also LE bashing here and accusations of LE withholding info on said neighborhood watch captain who shot the kid. As expected, being turned into a racial thing (which it may be of course) but again, seems instant jump to that conclusion.
At the very least, as I read the events, it sounds like Mr Zimmerman made one mistake/bad choice after another here.
Me, I will defend legal use of firearms by a civilian, and I will always give LE the benefit of the doubt, but this one is not passing the smell test so far for me.
George Zimmerman, Neighborhood Watch Captain Who Shot Trayvon Martin, Charged With Violence Before
An attorney for the family of Trayvon Martin, the teenager shot to death last month by a neighborhood watch captain in an Orlando, Fla., suburb, said police withheld the shooter's violent past from the slain youth's family.
Police initially told Martin’s family that George Zimmerman, 28, admitted to shooting Martin, 17, on Feb. 26, after he called 911 and reported a suspicious person, said the attorney, Benjamin Crump. Zimmerman said the shooting was in self-defense, police said.
Zimmerman, who is white, has not been charged in the death of Martin, who was black. Police in Sanford, where the shooting occurred, told Martin’s family that Zimmerman had a “squeaky-clean” record and that’s why they had not arrested him, according to Tracy Martin, the teen’s father.
Crump said public records show that Zimmerman was arrested in Orange County in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer.
“They just lied to the family,” Crump said. “They just couldn’t see why [Zimmerman] would do anything wrong or be violent. But not only do you know the guy killed this kid, because he admitted to it, you knew that he has a propensity for violence because of his past record.”
The Orange County Clerk of Courts website shows a man named George Zimmerman, 28, was charged in July 2005 with resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer. The charges appear to have been dropped.
An email to Sanford Chief Bill Lee was not immediately returned on Friday evening. A phone number for Zimmerman has been disconnected. He could not be reached for comment.
Cont:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1335984.html
Apparently some people think being charged with a crime the same as being convicted of a crime. Maybe they should study criminal law 101.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-11-12, 13:18
And Trayvon Martin's record???
Mauser KAR98K
03-11-12, 13:21
Looking at the dates and the age of Zimmerman, I think they got the wrong "violent" guy.
BTW: you know you are citing the Huffington Post, right? Not the best cite for gun rights and the like.
Nightvisionary
03-11-12, 17:32
I want to start my own neighborhood watch and appoint myself as Brigadier Admiral. That way I will out rank all the captains.
Looking at the dates and the age of Zimmerman, I think they got the wrong "violent" guy.
BTW: you know you are citing the Huffington Post, right? Not the best cite for gun rights and the like.
Hence my comment for the need for some actual details before passing judgement, but this case seems to be causing a big stir, so I thought worth discussing.
Apparently some people think being charged with a crime the same as being convicted of a crime. Maybe they should study criminal law 101.
But I betcha if the black teen turns out to have a few arrests we'll all just use that as justification for the guy to shoot him.
Apparently some people think being charged with a crime the same as being convicted of a crime.
Depends totally on who it is that was charged. :rolleyes:
Zimmerman, who is white, has not been charged in the death of Martin, who was black.
Fortunately, it seems that these days intelligent folks are giving less of a shit about the racial make-up of such an incident. At least around the N.J., Philly area anyhow. Crime stats don't lie and people are getting fed-up, even some dopey dems.
Race should not be an issue. It was either a good shoot or not.
Race should not be an issue. It was either a good shoot or not.
Sure, however sadly this hasn't always been the case.
One arrest w/o a conviction. On a regular basis I run into guys with 40+ felony arrests...who aren't even that old. Everyone wants to throw him out there as uber violent, I've seen way worse get probation over and over. I take it the area in question is more affluent than some of the places I see day-to-day.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/11/2689107/family-of-teen-killed-by-neighborhood.html
With the national media spotlight growing, and crucial details — such as police 911 calls — still a mystery, the family of slain Miami-Dade teenager Trayvon Martin held an emotional press conference Sunday night.
Sybrina Fulton, Martin’s mother, said the family thinks her son was killed because he was black.
“I’m a normal mother. I just want justice for my son,” Fulton said, speaking at the same Miami Gardens church where the teen was previously laid to rest. “My heart is broken. I keep thinking he is going to walk in through the door and the nightmare is going to end.”
Martin, a junior at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in North Miami-Dade, was shot and killed Feb. 26 after an altercation with the head of a neighborhood watch group in Sanford, a suburb of Orlando. Martin had been visiting his father’s fiancée and stepbrother, who live in a gated townhome community, that weekend.
Neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman, who is white, spotted Martin as the teen was heading back from a snack run to a nearby 7-Eleven store. Zimmerman called police to report a “suspicious person in the area” and followed Martin in his SUV. A police dispatcher told Zimmerman to stand down and let police take over, but that is not what happened.
Instead, Zimmerman apparently confronted the Miami teen. They scuffled, and by the time police arrived Zimmerman had a bloody nose, and Martin had been shot fatally in the chest.
Zimmerman, who had a concealed weapons permit and carried a black Kie Tek 9mm semi-automatic pistol, told police he acted in self-defense. Martin was unarmed, with only $22, candy and a can of iced tea in his pockets.
Zimmerman, a 28-year-old criminal justice major at Seminole State College, has stayed silent as the shooting has garnered national headlines.
Attempts by The Miami Herald to reach him have been unsuccessful — a telephone number listed to him has been disconnected — and it was unclear Sunday whether he had retained an attorney.
Martin’s family has grown impatient as weeks have passed and no criminal charges have been filed. The family’s attorneys recently filed suit to force police to turn over the 911 phone recordings and other investigative documents. The family said it remains deeply skeptical that police are handling the investigation properly.
Benjamin Crump, the family’s attorney, said the family would continue to seek the 911 tapes — which include both Zimmerman’s call to police as well as neighbors’ 911 calls as they heard the two men fighting. The Martin family hopes the tapes will shed light on what exactly happened in the crucial moments between Zimmerman stepping out of his car and the gunfire.
“Why did Trayvon Martin look so suspicious to have this 200-pound man confront this boy of 140 pounds?” Crump said. “How could he have claimed self-defense?”
Martin’s parents and legal team were joined by about 100 supporters Sunday night. In addition to speaking with reporters, the family held a candlelight vigil. Some mourners carried signs that said “Justice for Trayvon Martin.”
The Martin family’s frustration with Sanford police extends beyond the 911 tapes — the family also says Sanford police misleadingly told them Zimmerman had a clean criminal history.
In fact, Orange County court records show Zimmerman was arrested in 2005 for resisting an officer with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer. The charges were later dropped.
“I had a detective look at me in the eye; tell me he is a dad, that he is in pain and that he would bring us justice,” said the teen’s father, Tracy Martin. “He started off on the wrong foot. He lied.”
A day earlier, Bill Lee, Sanford’s police chief, said the 911 tapes would not be released because the investigation was still underway.
“There is evidence that George Zimmerman acted in self-defense.” Lee said.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/11/2689107/family-of-teen-killed-by-neighborhood.html#storylink=cpy
The story has holes. No where near enough information to form a opinion based on fact.
I would believe a shit head on the street before the media in every situation.
Belmont31R
03-11-12, 23:23
But I betcha if the black teen turns out to have a few arrests we'll all just use that as justification for the guy to shoot him.
Yep...Im my cracka filled hood we're all gunnin for than black teen who just got arrested a few times but never convicted.....:rolleyes:
Big missing piece of info about what happened exactly when Zimmerman confronted Martin. Also, what is the police record of Martin?
I would think though that a person carrying concealed (Zimmerman) should not be picking a fight. Perhaps he was cool headed and politely asked questions. But I can also see Martin saying who the heck are you and get away from me! Was he being harassed? Or did he overreact and attack Zimmerman unprovoked?
Sounds fishy to me though that a kid is alone on a snack run for his dad's fiance and for some reason becomes the attacker. On the other hand I would think if anything hinky happened the police would have held Zimmerman.
Just too many blank areas in the report so far.
Sounds fishy to me though that a kid is alone on a snack run for his dad's fiance and for some reason becomes the attacker.
Nowhere in that article does it say that he was doing it for his dads fiancé. It said he was visiting his fathers fiancé and stepbrother and he decided to go on a snack run.
In my opinion, this is an unjustified shooting regardless of the victims criminal history. This was a matter of racial profiling and the neighborhood watch person was wrong to approach the victim. Especially considering he'd already contacted to authorities. I think this man watched a few too many nutnfancy videos.
RogerinTPA
03-12-12, 06:30
Nowhere in that article does it say that he was doing it for his dads fiancé. It said he was visiting his fathers fiancé and stepbrother and he decided to go on a snack run.
In my opinion, this is an unjustified shooting regardless of the victims criminal history. This was a matter of racial profiling and the neighborhood watch person was wrong to approach the victim. Especially considering he'd already contacted to authorities. I think this man watched a few too many nutnfancy videos.
Agreed, with "Tackleberry like" tendencies....
Yep...Im my cracka filled hood we're all gunnin for than black teen who just got arrested a few times but never convicted.....:rolleyes:
Way to ignore that my quote was part of a discussion.
But yeah, that's pretty much how I picture you, an angry little white kid playing tough-guy in the 'burbs. Much like the shooter in the above story.
and have we even identified, since people want to make an issue of it (while ignoring it in the case of the shooter), whether the shoot-ee even had a record or are we just assuming it because, you know, he's black and all? Don't all of "them" have records?
Maybe in your world, but not in mine. I care more about someones' behavior and manners than I do about their skin color.
But I betcha if the black teen turns out to have a few arrests we'll all just use that as justification for the guy to shoot him.
What I want to know is why Mr. Blockwatch Captain even confronted this person to begin with? Why did he pull a weapon on someone who was unarmed? Why didn't he stand down when he was told to?
This sounds like someone trying to be a super hero and it backfired. If it he screwed up, I hope he gets nailed.
I agree with 8ball as that was my feeling as based on what I read. As a person who has been victim to such profiling in my very own neighborhood this seems very likely to be what happened. Biggest difference is in my case the police showed up right as things were escalating instead of afterwards.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Apparently some people think being charged with a crime the same as being convicted of a crime. Maybe they should study criminal law 101.
This is a huge problem these days.
montanadave
03-12-12, 10:52
Based solely on the limited information available (with no information about what took place during the actual confrontation), I'm gonna propose the following scenario:
You have a young, gung-ho, white guy playing "rent-a-cop" with the neighborhood watch who's studying criminal justice at the local college and is looking to get on with a local LE agency. He spots a black kid in a hoodie on a rainy night and creeps right up on the kid's ass following him home, even though the local police dispatcher had specifically instructed him to back off and wait for police to handle it.
The black kid, who (according to one Miami-Herald article) was on a week-long school suspension for unspecified reasons, spots the vehicle and flips him off or shoots off his mouth or some other such shit as cocky teenage kids are prone to do. Or perhaps he got scared and bolted. Either way, the white guy decides to take action, exits his vehicle, and the situation escalates into a physical confrontation.
As soon as things get hands-on, everything goes to shit, white guy draws his gun, and black kid gets shot.
All strictly hypothetical. But I'll bet it's not a bad guess.
Regardless of how the authorities characterize the incident, had the white guy done as he was instructed by the dispatcher and backed off, the black kid would have gone home that night rather than to the morgue.
All strictly hypothetical. But I'll bet it's not a bad guess.
That's the scenario that my brain, lacking additional info, developed also. It's a very rare case indeed I don't give benefit of the doubt to the civilian or LEO who did the shooting, but this one (as the info stands) looks bad for this "captain" to me and I do hope the PD involved is not found to be complicit in any way of sweeping legit charges, etc under the carpet for this guy.
I can't tell you how many suspicious persons calls we get with no articulation what so ever as to the activity the "suspicious" person is engaged in. Nothing more than a black guy walking down the street call.
This situation kind of stinks of that.
Even if that were the case, what happened when the confrontation took place is key, and the information no one has.
I don't feel the arrest record of either party (assuming they both have one) really factors into this.
I will say this, at 28 years old I had much different priorities than being a neighborhood watch captain. I'm just getting a waft of wanna-be off of this one.
Based solely on the limited information available (with no information about what took place during the actual confrontation), I'm gonna propose the following scenario:
You have a young, gung-ho, white guy playing "rent-a-cop" with the neighborhood watch who's studying criminal justice at the local college and is looking to get on with a local LE agency. He spots a black kid in a hoodie on a rainy night and creeps right up on the kid's ass following him home, even though the local police dispatcher had specifically instructed him to back off and wait for police to handle it.
The black kid, who (according to one Miami-Herald article) was on a week-long school suspension for unspecified reasons, spots the vehicle and flips him off or shoots off his mouth or some other such shit as cocky teenage kids are prone to do. Or perhaps he got scared and bolted. Either way, the white guy decides to take action, exits his vehicle, and the situation escalates into a physical confrontation.
As soon as things get hands-on, everything goes to shit, white guy draws his gun, and black kid gets shot.
All strictly hypothetical. But I'll bet it's not a bad guess.
Regardless of how the authorities characterize the incident, had the white guy done as he was instructed by the dispatcher and backed off, the black kid would have gone home that night rather than to the morgue.
Wow, with everyone making predictions about what went down based on race and ethnicity, I think that we should start a pool to see who gets it closest to the truth. So, here is my assumption: It appears that Mr Zimmerman is Jewish based on his last name. So, it stands to reason that he was checking to see if this suspicious person has paid his homeowner's association dues. A scuffle ensued when Mr Zimmerman (being Jewish) put his hand in Martin's pocket to get his loose change. The rest is all history...
On second thought, I'll just wait until more facts are released before I make an assumption based on the race or ethnicity of the parties involved in this unfortunate circumstance.
montanadave
03-12-12, 13:08
Wow, with everyone making predictions about what went down based on race and ethnicity, I think that we should start a pool to see who gets it closest to the truth. So, here is my assumption: It appears that Mr Zimmerman is Jewish based on his last name. So, it stands to reason that he was checking to see if this suspicious person has paid his homeowner's association dues. A scuffle ensued when Mr Zimmerman (being Jewish) put his hand in Martin's pocket to get his loose change. The rest is all history...
On second thought, I'll just wait until more facts are released before I make an assumption based on the race or ethnicity of the parties involved in this unfortunate circumstance.
Sorry if my speculation appeared based on race or ethnicity. It was not. Remove the "white" and "black" descriptors from my hypothetical account and it remains the same. I used the terms simply to identify the two individuals.
Like I said, it was more than likely a cocky teenage kid sassing a wannabe cop and things took a tragic turn.
Were you there? Have you ever been a neighborhood watch Captain? What about the media bias involved?
Seriously, the amount of conjecture in this thread is pretty laughable. Why do so many people take such a hypocritical stance when it comes to MMQB'ing a citizen shooting versus when a cop is involved? Some of the assertions made without any sort of official statement, information or evidence are stretching that news report a little too far in my opinion.
montanadave
03-12-12, 13:42
It's the internet!
It is assumed that the accuracy of an individual's assessment of any given situation is inversely proportional to their distance from the event, access to the actual data, and relevant experience level. :sarcastic:
Nobody's judging the guy. It's all just speculation but that's what folks do until all the evidence is made public.
Then we all assume some sort of conspiracy to coverup the "real" truth! :lol:
dookie1481
03-12-12, 13:53
Based solely on the limited information available (with no information about what took place during the actual confrontation), I'm gonna propose the following scenario:
You have a young, gung-ho, white guy playing "rent-a-cop" with the neighborhood watch who's studying criminal justice at the local college and is looking to get on with a local LE agency. He spots a black kid in a hoodie on a rainy night and creeps right up on the kid's ass following him home, even though the local police dispatcher had specifically instructed him to back off and wait for police to handle it.
The black kid, who (according to one Miami-Herald article) was on a week-long school suspension for unspecified reasons, spots the vehicle and flips him off or shoots off his mouth or some other such shit as cocky teenage kids are prone to do. Or perhaps he got scared and bolted. Either way, the white guy decides to take action, exits his vehicle, and the situation escalates into a physical confrontation.
As soon as things get hands-on, everything goes to shit, white guy draws his gun, and black kid gets shot.
All strictly hypothetical. But I'll bet it's not a bad guess.
Regardless of how the authorities characterize the incident, had the white guy done as he was instructed by the dispatcher and backed off, the black kid would have gone home that night rather than to the morgue.
That is EXACTLY what I thought as well.
Have you ever been a neighborhood watch Captain?
Because that's a prerequisite to post in this thread? :confused: I don't think the neighborhood watch program really has a stringent application process.
It is assumed that the accuracy of an individual's assessment of any given situation is inversely proportional to their distance from the event, access to the actual data, and relevant experience level.
Yup. This thread is all conjecture. So what. Just conversation...
Because that's a prerequisite to post in this thread? :confused: I don't think the neighborhood watch program really has a stringent application process.
Yup. This thread is all conjecture. So what. Just conversation...
Because it's a prerequisite to be a cop to post in a thread about an OIS? Conjecture? Same thing happens in OIS threads except typically they're closed down in a hurry and several of our police officer forum members make the exact comments I did in relation to this one.
I'm in agreement with you that it's just a conversation. However, OIS incidents should be dealt with in the same exact way.
One can only hope that Rev. Sharpton or Jackson can get involved to placate the racial tensions that are developing.
Because it's a prerequisite to be a cop to post in a thread about an OIS?
Is that a statement of fact or a question?
An Undocumented Worker
03-19-12, 07:51
911 call has been posted. Zimmerman's call, and a call from another witness.
Watch/listen here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aVwPqXc-bk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmnqKotpSD0&feature=related
Any cops/lawyers/smart people know what the legal restrictions are involving "gated communities?"
Consider a gated neighborhood of detached, single-family homes with some form of access control at road entrances. Can they keep outsiders from walking down the street (I know in this case the deceased was staying in the neighborhood)?
Does it matter if the roads are maintained by the local govt?
I would imagine things are different for apartments or condo complexes where the roads are really just entrances to parking lots?
TriumphRat675
03-19-12, 09:27
Here's the bottom line, regardless of how the inevitable court case shakes out:
Dude saw someone walking down the street and initiated contact , while armed, after being told not to by the police, with no damn good reason. He wasn't saving someone's life, he wasn't stopping a rape or robbery, but he was trying to play cop. He started an altercation, and as a result a teenager is dead.
Dude is an asshole. He had no legal justification to pick a fight, and once that fight was picked, to use deadly force to end it. There is a lesson here for anyone smart enough to grasp it.
I'd like to know what the prior calls to local Leo's were for. Since everybody else is mmqbing. What if there was someone up to no good and your wife and children were home alone while you were at work doing some ot, would you really want him to stand down? Obviously the situation could've been handled better but I don't think he should've stood down. He could've taken a passive approach after wing told to stand down.
I think the issue is if there was an immediate threat to another person, requiring immediate intervention.
In Missouri, the big difference between a citizens authority to use force and a LEO's is that LEO is justified in being the aggressor.
"Up to no good" leaves a lot open. A guy walking around a neighborhood and a guy climbing through a broken window into a house of which they aren't the resident are two drastically different things.
If anything, this situation clearly shows how drastically things can go wrong really fast.
SW-Shooter
03-19-12, 19:04
That kid was executed. It's a syndrome that is prevalent with those that feel like they should be held in high regard but lack the intelligence, emotional, and physical capabilities to actually accomplish that desire.
They often become security guards (that think they are L.E.) with a chip on their shoulder, true JBT's exhibit this as well as those that wash out of the military.
I think it's a travesty that the family has been denied justice. Nothing could explain gunning that kid down like a dog.
One can only hope that Rev. Sharpton or Jackson can get involved to placate the racial tensions that are developing.
Thank God they have finally arrived. Now cooler heads can prevail....
Moose-Knuckle
03-20-12, 03:39
So the neighborhood watch captain (on his "patrol" I gather) spots a male of (adult size) walking in the neighborhood at night wearing a hood over his head after several recent burglaries in the area. Was it cold that night in FL? The 17 YO was not from there he was visiting so that is why no one recognized him. The watch captain spots him, he walks towards the watch captain, then runs and a fight ensued. The 911 calls recorded the caller calling out for help from the home owners placing said 911 calls. They refused, and Zimmerman shot.
Sounds as if the 17 YO (adult here in TX) more than likely attacked Zimmerman after being contacted to verify who he was since he was new to the area visiting family. If I spot a guy wearing a hood over his head in warm climates red flags go off.
On a side note, not that race should matter but since everyone IS making it THE issue here Zimmerman does not look white, he looks hispanic IMHO.
A little more info from HERE (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T2hlCnmiauI). Looks like he may have been on the phone with a friend when the incident occurred.
ABC NEWS:
"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."
Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.
"Trayvon said 'what are you following me for,' and the man said 'what are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."
The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.
Florida Teen Killed by Community-Watch Member Watch Video
Trayvon Martin's Family Calls for Justice Watch Video
Trayvon Martin Neighborhood Watch Shooting Watch Video
Trayvon's phone logs, also obtained exclusively by ABC News, show the conversation occurred five minutes before police first arrived on scene. The young woman's parents asked that we not use her name, and that only an attorney could ask her questions.
Doc Safari
03-20-12, 13:12
I have my own opinion on this: shooter was a habitual caller to the cops and got trigger happy this time.
But no matter the facts, the media and the administration will spin it into a racist execution-style killing and an excuse for more gun control, not to mention some national restrictions on neighborhood watch programs and maybe even something as nutty as a limit on the number of times you can call the cops during a certain period of time.
montanadave
03-20-12, 16:04
One news report I read states Zimmerman told the police after the shooting that he had stopped his vehicle and gotten out to look at a street sign to verify his location when Trayvon Martin jumped him from behind, initiating the physical struggle which ended in George Zimmerman "fearing for his life" and shooting Martin.
Zimmerman, the self-appointed captain of a Neighborhood Watch of one, who regularly patrolled the neighborhood, had to get out of his vehicle to look at a street sign to figure out where he was?
And the kid he had been following, who had taken off and was trying to get away from him, jumped him? When Martin was on the phone telling his friend about trying to get away from Zimmerman?
That story stinks. And I can't believe the local PD didn't even haul Zimmerman in to take a statement and get a blood sample, given that they requested a post-mortem tox screen on the kid.
As for the politics of it, I would think the Obama administration would want to stay as far away from this as possible. They may be bowing to some political pressure by letting the FBI and Justice Department poke their noses into it, but if the grand jury indicts Zimmerman for something (anything), I'm guessing you'll see them back off and let the state case run its course. And Obama's reelection committee will breathe a huge sigh of relief when the state sets a trial date AFTER the November election.
I think the memory of the Officer Crowley-Professor Gates Rose Garden "Beer Summit" debacle is still fresh in the minds of the President's advisors. With this Trayvon Martin case sure to become a lighting rod for public figures looking to demagogue the racial angle and the media feeding frenzy already ramping up, the last thing President Obama wants is to get dragged into a racial conflict in a swing state.
That story stinks. And I can't believe the local PD didn't even haul Zimmerman in to take a statement and get a blood sample, given that they requested a post-mortem tox screen on the kid.
A toxicology report during an autopsy would be standard fare. It would be irresponsible not to do it. While it could prove the presence of a controlled substance, it could also prove that he was sober.
Taking a blood sample from a living person would at least require a search warrant, with supporting evidence indicating probable cause to believe the subject was intoxicated.
A lot of people are hung up on the fact that Zimmerman wasn't booked. Understand that it means little.
When someone is arrested, they have a right to due process. The police are required to gain an arrest warrant or release the person within 24 hours, in most states. This means the case would have to be brought before the prosecuting authority and/or grand jury within that time frame.
Due to the amount of investigation required, this more than likely wasn't feasible. By the time suspect and witness statements are gathered, all the evidence seized and analyzed, and organized in a cohesive way into a police report, this could easily take over 24 hours. Especially in complicated cases...such as this one.
If someone is in custody or being detained, this also effects their Miranda rights, but I doubt this was as much the case and trying to wrap up the case in 24 hours.
Unless Zimmerman was some type of flight risk, a custodial arrest wouldn't have done anything.
Ultimately, it is not the police to decide if he will be charged. All the police do in after the fact incidents is document and investigate, and in cases like this, present it to a grand jury.
The grand jury decides if there is enough evidence to support criminal charges in court. The same thing is done in cases of police shootings. It is the prosecuting attorney's office and/or a grand jury, who decides if the force was within the scope of the law.
Either way, regardless of the outcome of the criminal end of it, I think the young man's family has a strong civil case. To prove a wrongful death suit, it isn't just as simple as "I was in fear of my life". You have to prove the other party had to have intent, ability, means and opportunity to use deadly against you. In a situation you instigate, this can be very hard to do. Especially if all you had to do is drive away...
Moose-Knuckle
03-20-12, 17:09
A lot of people are hung up on the fact that Zimmerman wasn't booked. Understand that it means little.
The grand jury decides if there is enough evidence to support criminal charges in court. The same thing is done in cases of police shootings. It is the prosecuting attorney's office and/or a grand jury, who decides if the force was within the scope of the law.
Bingo bango. ;)
The media and the lemmings who watch it are so quick to conclude some vast racial conspiracy. :rolleyes:
montanadave
03-20-12, 17:49
I'm not saying they should have arrested Zimmerman. I just find it a trifle odd that, under these circumstances (i.e. a 14 year old kid laying dead in what amounts to his backyard with a bag of Skittles in his hand and a 28-year-old guy told by the police not 15 minutes before to back off standing over him with a smoking gun), the local PD thought taking his statement at the scene and sending him home was sufficient.
Belmont31R
03-20-12, 17:54
Sounds like a trigger happy do gooder.
A toxicology report during an autopsy would be standard fare. It would be irresponsible not to do it. While it could prove the presence of a controlled substance, it could also prove that he was sober.
Taking a blood sample from a living person would at least require a search warrant, with supporting evidence indicating probable cause to believe the subject was intoxicated.
A lot of people are hung up on the fact that Zimmerman wasn't booked. Understand that it means little.
When someone is arrested, they have a right to due process. The police are required to gain an arrest warrant or release the person within 24 hours, in most states. This means the case would have to be brought before the prosecuting authority and/or grand jury within that time frame.
Due to the amount of investigation required, this more than likely wasn't feasible. By the time suspect and witness statements are gathered, all the evidence seized and analyzed, and organized in a cohesive way into a police report, this could easily take over 24 hours. Especially in complicated cases...such as this one.
If someone is in custody or being detained, this also effects their Miranda rights, but I doubt this was as much the case and trying to wrap up the case in 24 hours.
Unless Zimmerman was some type of flight risk, a custodial arrest wouldn't have done anything.
Ultimately, it is not the police to decide if he will be charged. All the police do in after the fact incidents is document and investigate, and in cases like this, present it to a grand jury.
The grand jury decides if there is enough evidence to support criminal charges in court. The same thing is done in cases of police shootings. It is the prosecuting attorney's office and/or a grand jury, who decides if the force was within the scope of the law.
Either way, regardless of the outcome of the criminal end of it, I think the young man's family has a strong civil case. To prove a wrongful death suit, it isn't just as simple as "I was in fear of my life". You have to prove the other party had to have intent, ability, means and opportunity to use deadly against you. In a situation you instigate, this can be very hard to do. Especially if all you had to do is drive away...
A few notes specific to FL law, with the disclaimer that I am not a lawyer:
Regarding the lack of arrest -
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
And regarding the civil case, if it is found that Mr. Neighborhood Watch was justified in using deadly force under the so-called Stand Your Ground law (FS 776.012), he is immune from civil action according to the above quoted statute.
So there's a pretty decent chance that whatever case Trayvon's family would have in civil court is irrelevant.
montanadave
03-20-12, 18:33
Thanks for posting the information on the Florida law. Which raises a couple of questions.
If a guy claims he acted in self-defense and the authorities decide not to file charges, or even if they do and the guy is acquitted at trial, then is he immune from civil prosecution?
And who makes the judgment as to whether the use of force is justified and is there an appeals process in place to contest that judgment? Is failure by the authorities to file charges tantamount to ruling the use of force justified?
Doesn't this essentially remove any difference in the burden of proof required between criminal and civil cases?
This law seems to open up one hell of a can of worms.
Mo_Zam_Beek
03-21-12, 11:06
Bloomberg Editorial Hit Piece
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-20/trayvon-martin-shooting-shows-perils-of-lax-u-s-gun-laws.html
Good luck
The only reason this is news is because a white guy shot a black guy and it appears to be unjustified. The more publicity it receives from the cable news channels and AM talk radio the more it helps fuel anti-gun sentiment with the intellectually challenged.
Our economy and country are going down in flames and yet somehow this is "news".
The only reason this is news is because a white guy shot a black guy and it appears to be unjustified. The more publicity it receives from the cable news channels and AM talk radio the more it helps fuel anti-gun sentiment with the intellectually challenged.
Our economy and country are going down in flames and yet somehow this is "news".
Pretty much. The story never makes it more than day if it's a black cop shooting a white scumbag.
Doc Safari
03-21-12, 12:42
But it's all good. A black militia group is threatening to handle the shooter themselves:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/well-find-him-black-militia-organization-vows-vengeance-on-trayvon-martin-shooter/
I give it until summer before we are seeing Rodney-King-style riots in Florida.
crusader377
03-21-12, 13:19
Bottom line, the mall ninja Zimmerman should go to jail for a long time. He wanted to play hero and started the altercation which resulted in the teenager's death. There was absolutely no reason why that unarmed teenager had to die.
Here are the facts:
1) Zimmerman was a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain. He wasn't employed or contracted by anyone to watch or defend the neighborhood.
2) Zimmerman contacted 911 and was told not to follow or confront the teenager which he did anyway.
3) The teenager that Zimmerman confronted was unarmed and Zimmerman outweighed the teenager by 80-100lbs making it unlikely that the teenager could defeat him in a physical altercation.
4) Even if the teenage was fighting with Zimmerman I don't think FL stand you ground law gives someone the right to start an altercation and then use deadly force if it is getting out of hand.
Generally I don't like it when pressure by the media or whomever is applied in criminal cases. However, this case seemed screwed from the beginning.
1. Self appointed block captain confronts teen. Why?
2. Stand Your Ground- I have a hard time with this one. Zimmerman appears to have been the one following the kid. Dispatch says to back off. He continues.
3. The teen was unarmed. Why did he pull his gun out?
4. Someone made a hasty decision to drop the charges.
Generally I don't like it when pressure by the media or whomever is applied in criminal cases. However, this case seemed screwed from the beginning.
1. Self appointed block captain confronts teen. Why?
2. Stand Your Ground- I have a hard time with this one. Zimmerman appears to have been the one following the kid. Dispatch says to back off. He continues.
3. The teen was unarmed. Why did he pull his gun out?
4. Someone made a hasty decision to drop the charges.
Totally agree with the note that charges weren't dropped, they just haven't been filed (yet). The case is scheduled to be presented to a Grand Jury.
Crusader you are correct on your fourth point. See below. Duty to retreat applies if you are the initial aggressor.
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.
Author of the Stand Your Ground law says Zimmerman shouldn't be able to claim defense under the law. I agree...
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/
Put this (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pmdf8vp5) in your pipe and smoke it. :)
"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.
John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."
Generally I don't like it when pressure by the media or whomever is applied in criminal cases. However, this case seemed screwed from the beginning.
1. Self appointed block captain confronts teen. Why?
2. Stand Your Ground- I have a hard time with this one. Zimmerman appears to have been the one following the kid. Dispatch says to back off. He continues.
3. The teen was unarmed. Why did he pull his gun out?
4. Someone made a hasty decision to drop the charges.
Do we know that he confronted the teen?
The released 911 tapes do not indicate to what extent Zimmerman disregarded or obeyed the dispachers. In the 911 tapes, he states that Martin was moving toward him and then ran. Another fact that we know is that Zimmerman can be heard calling for help on the witness' 911 tape. We also know that Zimmerman was found by police with a bloody face. Outside of that, we don't know what happened.
It is possible that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and then was attacked. If Martin ran around a house and then ambushed Zimmerman while he awaited for police, I can see how this could quickly escalate to a lethal force situation. I can also see a justified lethal force situation if Zimmerman walked around a corner (not in pursuit per se, but to see in what direction Martin ran for the police), and was then ambushed.
I've also noticed a couple of potential inconsistencies in the pro-Martin story. First, Zimmerman describes Martin's hands on the 911 tapes as being in his waisband and holding an object - not talking on a cell phone. It is also noted that the press releases describe a scene of Skittles and a bottle of tea around Martin's body; no mention of a cell phone. This would dispute the GF's claim that she was on the phone with Martin when the attack happened.
Another fact that we know is that Zimmerman can be heard calling for help on the witness' 911 tape. We also know that Zimmerman was found by police with a bloody face.
I've also noticed a couple of potential inconsistencies in the pro-Martin story. First, Zimmerman describes Martin's hands on the 911 tapes as being in his waisband and holding an object - not talking on a cell phone. It is also noted that the press releases describe a scene of Skittles and a bottle of tea around Martin's body; no mention of a cell phone. This would dispute the GF's claim that she was on the phone with Martin when the attack happened.
What you're describing and the article I linked to above (Put [URL="http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pmdf8vp5") are starting to sound like it may not be so cut and dry. Maybe post #27 was prophetic after all.
The lessons that I've learned from Rev Jackson and Sharpton is to believe the exact OPPOSITE of what they say in these situations. Their modus operandi is to descend on the scene of a tragedy and create such an atmosphere of racial tension that the DA is pressured into filing charges that are not justified by the circumstance. This is generally done in haste to solidify public opinion on their side and taint the jury pool before the facts can come to light. This was true for the Tawana Brawley Case, and especially true for the Duke Lacrosse Case where an overzealous prosecutor tied his career aspirations to the public furor.
I see the same thing happening in the case. The national media has quickly filled in the voids with scenarios that seem to be the least plausible given the few known facts. Unfortunately, a good number of respected members on this forum seem to have taken the race bait - hook, line, and sinker.
In the future when these scenarios play out (trust me, they will happen again as the good Reverends' careers depend on it), try not to dogmatically follow Wesley Snipes' advice on Passenger 57; you know the line where he says, "always bet on Black."
montanadave
03-21-12, 18:01
Seems like questions regarding Martin's cell phone could be quickly resolved by just checking the call log and times. It should be pretty simple to construct a timeline of the 911 calls and any calls made or received on Martin's phone.
How shoddy was the investigation that this wasn't done three weeks ago?
Seems like questions regarding Martin's cell phone could be quickly resolved by just checking the call log and times. It should be pretty simple to construct a timeline of the 911 calls and any calls made or received on Martin's phone.
How shoddy was the investigation that this wasn't done three weeks ago?
It was not done 3 weeks ago because the GF came forward about the call a few days ago. They have established that a phone call was logged to the GF within 5 minutes of the shooting. However, they are not sure if he was on the phone during the actual confrontation like the GF claims. It is very possible that he was on the phone immediately before Zimmerman saw him, or sometime between Zimmerman's 911 call and the shooting (i.e. "Baby, some dude was following me and I'm gonna jack his ass if he comes around this corner. Talk to you soon...").
Another problem that I'm having with this story is the media's circulating a picture of the boy that is obviously out of date. Reports have Martin at 6'3" at the time of the shooting which paints a whole new picture of his capabilities. They are also limiting the reports of witnesses who say they saw Martin on top Zimmerman and delivering blow from the mounted position. This is substantiated by the the few reports that made into the press of Zimmerman having blood on his face, a wound to the back of his head, and grass stains on his back. All this suggests that Martin had a dominant position just prior to being shot.
Let's say that you are caught with a surprise power right cross to the chin followed by some ground-and-pound from the mount. Do you really think that you are not going to use a weapon, any weapon, under those circumstance?
montanadave
03-21-12, 21:54
And the fact that the police had his cell phone but didn't call any of the numbers on it to try to identify the kid? They logged him into the medical examiner's morgue as a John Doe and Martin's father didn't learn of his son's death until over 24 hours later when he called 911 after getting blown off when he tried to file a missing person report.
Who carts off a dead kid shot through the chest in a residential neighborhood and doesn't even take the time to try to find out who he is or locate his family? How would you react if this was your child?
What makes you think that any of these things weren't done?
You can't search someone's cell phone w/o cause. You probably couldnt even if you wanted to if there was a lock on it.
Bodies rolled into morgues have to have POSITIVE identification. If he doesn't have ID in his pocket, how do you think this would be done?
Cell phone companies require subeonas to release phone records. Not just a pretty please.
Your knowledge about how these things are conducted is minimal at best. Maybe you should refrain from blasting everyone without any knowledge of the way things are.
And the fact that the police had his cell phone but didn't call any of the numbers on it to try to identify the kid?
I don't think that the police saw him as a kid. He was 6'3" at the time of the shooting.
When my cousin was killed a few years ago we found out about it from the police simply making a few calls on his phone to family to ask for someone to come down and ID his body at the scene.
A friend of mine was killed in a car accident. His ID was not found but the police did find his cell phone and called his parents to have them come down and ID him.
Supeonas weren't needed if in either case
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Another problem that I'm having with this story is the media's circulating a picture of the boy that is obviously out of date. Reports have Martin at 6'3" at the time of the shooting which paints a whole new picture of his capabilities. They are also limiting the reports of witnesses who say they saw Martin on top Zimmerman and delivering blow from the mounted position. This is substantiated by the the few reports that made into the press of Zimmerman having blood on his face, a wound to the back of his head, and grass stains on his back. All this suggests that Martin had a dominant position just prior to being shot.
Good stuff.
When my cousin was killed a few years ago we found out about it from the police simply making a few calls on his phone to family to ask for someone to come down and ID his body at the scene.
A friend of mine was killed in a car accident. His ID was not found but the police did find his cell phone and called his parents to have them come down and ID him.
Supeonas weren't needed if in either case
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Subeonas would be required to get phone RECORDS, from the cell provider. This would include in-going and out-going calls, text and picture messages etc.
I have an iPhone that locks automatically. You couldn't get information from it. If you try 10 pass codes unsuccessfully, it wipes out the phone. So in the age of smart phones, getting information from them is harder than flipping it open. I, or anyone with access to my account can also remotely wipe my phone. As such, it's common practice to turn phones off, if there is reason to believe it's contents would be evidence.
I know many people that use the ICE (in case of emergency) prefix in their contacts to denote who to call. This practice makes no sense if you have a pass code lock on your phone.
Also, a car accident is wildly different from this. I also have my reservations that his parents came to the scene to ID him. The fatal accidents I've worked we're grotesque to say the least. To bring a parent there would be incredibly cruel. Between license plates and documents in the car, there's typically more than enough information to make a preliminary ID. Even if the subject doesn't have ID, most states have online photo records with their driver's licenses and ID cards. Not to mention booking photos and the like.
Interesting information about the witnesses. Do you have any links that have that info in them?
Interesting information about the witnesses. Do you have any links that have that info in them?
Irish posted a link at the top of the page that quotes a witness seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman delivering blows while Zimmerman called out for help. Here it is again:
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pmdf8vp5
This story has a police description of how they found Zimmerman (bleeding from head and face with grass on his back):
http://lezgetreal.com/2012/03/possible-witnesses-emerge-in-the-trayvon-martin-death/comment-page-1/
This news report details that 6 witness provided statements that all corroborated Zimmerman's account.
http://www.dominionofnewyork.com/2012/03/16/police-witness-spar-over-trayvon-martin-investigation/#.T2rC7BB5mSM
Interesting that at least one of the witnesses has now changed their story. Even more interesting is the fact that multiple news agencies have copies of the witness statements, but none of them have been published in their unedited form.
Interesting that at least one of the witnesses has now changed their story. Even more interesting is the fact that multiple news agencies have copies of the witness statements, but none of them have been published in their unedited form.
I would say the media not publishing ALL of the witness statements would be typical.
Most news articles these days are nothing more than thinly veiled editorials meant to push an agenda. Any wiff of impropriety on the part of the police combined with race issues = ratings.
crusader377
03-22-12, 08:19
Having Zimmerman bleeding really doesn't prove that he was innocent. Yes Martin could have jumped him but I think it is more likely that Zimmerman followed Martin and created a situation that Martin could have defined Zimmerman as an attacker and could have been fighting for his life and Zimmerman shot him.
If Zimmerman would have listened to 911 and cease following him and stayed in his car, I don't think this would have happened.
CarlosDJackal
03-22-12, 09:11
...Who carts off a dead kid shot through the chest in a residential neighborhood and doesn't even take the time to try to find out who he is or locate his family? How would you react if this was your child?
Everyone!! You cannot leave a body at the crime scene to start smelling while you try to establish its identity. Once the body has been examined for anything that is relevant to the case it is turned over to the MEDICAL EXAMINER. The M.E. determines how much longer the body stays at its current location and then bags and tags it. The body is then transported back to their lab where it is put under refrigeration.
Otherwise, the body starts rotting. If identification is not found before the M.E. takes control of it, the body is identified as John Doe #X.
I think you are watching way too many CSI episodes which has nothing to do with reality.
CarlosDJackal
03-22-12, 09:20
...If Zimmerman would have listened to 911 and cease following him and stayed in his car, I don't think this would have happened.
I agree. But what is its relevance on the case? The question is whether or not Zimmerman has committed justifiable homicide, manslaughter or outright murder.
IMHO, the left-wing, anti-gun, racists are muddying the waters by trying to drag the "Stand your Ground" law into the mix. Their attempts at politicizing and making this case a racial incident does nothing to help determine the truth.
Did Zimmerman escalate the situation by following Martin? The evidence supports the answer "YES!".
Did he initiate contact with Martin? Or did Martin confront him? That is the question. I suspect that the law they are dragging into this mix does not cover instances where the initiator of the incident (Zimmerman) is protected. Common Law has always been if you start the fight that results in someone else's death by your hands; you are considered an active participant in the violence and can be prosecuted as such.
If Martin did confront him, did he "stand his ground" and shoot an unarmed person? Or did he actually shoot in self-defense? Was there a provable disparity of force? Or was there a furtive or overt act by Martin that led Zimmerman to think his life was in danger? Again, the answer to these questions should determine Zimmerman's guilt or innocence.
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20120322/US.Neighborhood.Watch.Stand.Your.Ground/
Zimmerman told police he was attacked by 17-year-old Trayvon Martin after he had given up chasing the boy and he was returning to his truck. He had a bloody nose and blood on the back of his head, according to police.
The whole thing's rather entertaining to see how upset people are getting. Personally I'm more worried about our economy, oil prices and what's happening in the M.E. and think this serves as a good racially fueled incident to get the downtrodden to vote for O in the upcoming election. A little bit of race based hate solidarity goes a long way.
montanadave
03-22-12, 10:35
Everyone!! You cannot leave a body at the crime scene to start smelling while you try to establish its identity. Once the body has been examined for anything that is relevant to the case it is turned over to the MEDICAL EXAMINER. The M.E. determines how much longer the body stays at its current location and then bags and tags it. The body is then transported back to their lab where it is put under refrigeration.
Otherwise, the body starts rotting. If identification is not found before the M.E. takes control of it, the body is identified as John Doe #X.
I think you are watching way too many CSI episodes which has nothing to do with reality.
I wasn't implying they should leave the corpse laying out in the yard. :laugh:
My point was that they had a fresh body still warm from a shooting in a residential neighborhood and the local PD don't seem to have made a very concerted effort to identify the teenager and notify his family.
With the amount of news coverage and protests coupled with the horrible housing market, economy, unemployment and so forth does anyone else see the potential for a Rodney King type incident unfolding?
With the amount of news coverage and protests coupled with the horrible housing market, economy, unemployment and so forth does anyone else see the potential for a Rodney King type incident unfolding?
Not really
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Situation just gets better....(sarcasm, as in, this situation is turning into a cluster fu%$ squared) as roaches scramble to cover their ass. End well this will not...
The actual chain of events, once hashed out over all the noise, will be interesting to read at some point.
SANFORD, Fla -- The many missteps in the Trayvon Martin investigation that may cost this small town’s police chief his job started with semantics.
The boy’s father says police depicted George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot an unarmed Miami Gardens teenager while on his nightly patrol, as “squeaky clean.” Then Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee told an Orlando TV station that the gunman didn’t have a criminal record — technically true: Charges in the shooter’s 2005 felony arrest, which the chief did not mention, had been dropped.
Now Chief Lee, who came on the job just 10 months ago for $102,000 a year to clean up a department tainted by racial scandals, finds himself under fire in what promises to be one of the most explosive law enforcement cases of the year. For weeks, black leaders have called for the firing of Lee, a Sanford native with a three-decade career in law enforcement whose father once ran the nearby black neighborhood’s convenience store.
In a 3-2 vote Wednesday night, the Sanford City Commission gave the chief a vote of no confidence, adding to the mounting national pressure to oust him.
What began as misunderstandings, technicalities and poor word choice mushroomed into what critics are calling a deeply flawed investigation, which is now being looked at by state and federal agencies.
“I’ve never thought the chief was a racist or anything. It’s more of a lack of experience and a lack of leadership,” said Commissioner Velma Williams, who advocated that the chief resign to quell tensions before a rally next week, timed for Monday’s city commission meeting.
Mayor Jeff Triplett told reporters afterward that he voted against the chief over his management and “communication.” City manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. told reporters that he would not make a decision about the chief’s fate until he learns from an independent law enforcement agency what mistakes police might have made. This week the U.S. Department of Justice, the FBI and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement launched their own investigations.
Phone records have not yet been inspected, witnesses’ calls were allegedly not returned and the criminal record of the shooter was not checked until the morning after the shooting — what experts call examples of sloppy police work that undermined the police department’s credibility and could hamper a future prosecution. Together, gaffes big and small helped foster Trayvon’s family’s belief that investigators were out to protect the accused.
“Basically, from day one, we didn’t feel that the police were doing a thorough investigation,” said Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, a Miami-Dade truck driver. “They were taking Zimmerman’s word that he didn’t murder our son.”
So many legislators, online petitioners, national civil rights leaders and even celebrities have denounced the inquiry that the city manager — the only one who can fire Lee — made the chief respond to the most frequent criticisms in writing. He posted Lee’s answers on the city’s website.
Among the allegations:
• As evidence that the incident was not a case of racial profiling, Lee told The Miami Herald that when the police dispatch operator asked Zimmerman the race of the suspicious person he saw, the Hispanic neighborhood watch captain did not know. Yet when the recording of that conversation was made public, Zimmerman clearly says, “he looks black.”
• Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle. Attorneys for the dead teen’s family believe the information was added in a second report to justify the lack of an arrest.
• Police said witness statements supported Zimmerman’s account. But several of the witnesses expressed surprise, telling The Herald that they reported hearing someone crying for help just before a shot ended the cries. The 911 tapes of witness calls bolstered their claims.
• One of the witnesses who heard the crying said she called a detective repeatedly, but said he was not interested because her account differed from Zimmerman’s.
• For nearly a month, police never noticed a profanity Zimmerman mumbled under his breath when he called police, which some people believe was accompanied by a muffled racial slur.
• Even though investigators have the dead boy’s cell phone, it was Trayvon’s father who combed through the phone records to discover that his son was talking to a girlfriend in the moments that led up to his death. Police never contacted the girl, who told lawyers that Trayvon was alarmed because he was being followed.
The department defends its investigation and says it welcomes outside oversight. In an interview last week, Lee said the query into Trayvon’s death was “color blind” and thorough.
He insisted that evidence collected at the scene and from witnesses did not provide enough probable cause to refute Zimmerman’s version that he shot Trayvon in self defense, and says it would have been against the law to arrest him.
“They are saying that things that aren’t factual, that we had admitted that we didn’t know about George Zimmerman’s criminal history, which is not true,” Lee told The Herald. “We ran his history that morning. I said, ‘He doesn’t have a criminal history, anything that prohibits him from having a concealed weapons permit — which is true. He has an arrest record, but he has not been convicted of anything.”
The “squeaky clean” quote was out of context, Lee said, and critics “are basing their opinion on what is being portrayed in the media.”
Trayvon was shot Feb. 26 while walking home from a store where he bought Skittles and Arizona iced tea. Zimmerman called police about seeing a “suspicious person,” and was recorded in breathless pursuit.
In at least three police interrogations and a videotaped interview, Zimmerman told police he was on his way back to his truck when he was approached from behind by Trayvon, Lee said. Zimmerman said Trayvon attacked him. In fear for his life, Zimmerman said, he reached for the Kel Tek 9mm semi-automatic handgun he kept in a holster on his waist and fired.
Attorneys for the family say that the blunders that followed demonstrated that detectives never intended to arrest Zimmerman.
“Police never went knocking door to door that night asking if anybody was missing a kid,” the family’s attorney, Benjamin Crump, said. That’s because it never occurred to police that the boy wasn’t a burglar, so they patted Zimmerman on the back and sent him home, Crump added.
“They acted like, ‘We’re sorry you had to endure killing this teenager,’’’ he said. “They make it look like Zimmerman is the victim.”
Law enforcement experts consulted by The Herald agreed.
“I have never seen such an incompetent investigation,” said Walt Zalisko, a former Jersey City police commander who now owns a police management consulting company in Central Florida. “There are so many problems with this case. The problem up here is that officers receive very little training, and there is very little understanding of diversity issues.
“The good ol’ boy network is so prevalent here.”
Zalisko, who has followed the case closely, said he was startled by Zimmerman’s claim that he had left his truck so he could check the name of the street he was on. Making a point that Chief Lee also made, Zalisko said it’s implausible that Zimmerman would not know where he was in a tiny gated community that he patrolled regularly.
“That’s a lie right there,” Zalisko said. “There are so many inconsistencies in the story. At the very least they should have arrested him, and let the state attorney sort it out.”
Several experts interviewed said Lee’s biggest mistake was to speak publicly about the decision to not file charges, because it made him look like he was defending Zimmerman.
“There are some things in this case that have me scratching my head,” said former Boca Raton police chief Andrew Scott, now a professional expert trial witness. “Instead of saying, ‘There’s no probable cause for arrest,’ he needed to have said: ‘We’re not making an arrest until it is reviewed by the State Attorney’s office.’ Does that mean there is bias?”
Scott said Lee was right to get in front of the cameras in such a high-profile case and provide information to the public, but he needed to make sure everything he said was accurate. “If the chief is saying things which later turn out to be untrue,” Scott said, “there is an overwhelming sense of incongruity and lack of confidence in the investigation.”
The Seminole County State Attorney’s office did not return a request for comment on whether a prosecutor was on the scene that night. Sanford police spokesman Sgt. David Morgenstern said one was called and attended investigative meetings, but he does not know if anyone was present the night Trayvon died.
Morgenstern dismissed lawyers’ criticism that a drug test was conducted on Trayvon’s body but not on Zimmerman, saying toxicology tests are routine for a medical examiner conducting an autopsy, but uncommon for detectives conducting a homicide investigation.
He could not explain why the chief claimed Zimmerman did not know Trayvon’s race when he called 911, except that Lee must have been misinformed.
As for checking the boy’s phone records, Trayvon’s phone was locked and detectives were in the process of getting a subpoena for the records, Morgenstern said. He stressed that the department had pleaded for anyone with information to come forward, suggesting that the girl should have called investigators and the family should have turned the phone records over.
Some news reports criticized the department for using a narcotics detective to question Zimmerman instead of a member of the major-crimes squad.
“An investigator is an investigator, no matter what the word is in front of their title,” the spokesman said.
Zimmerman’s story “had some merit,” and investigators just needed more time, Morgenstern said.
“We could have gone to a judge with the case and the judge could have thrown out the case, and then what justice would Trayvon Martin’s family have?” Morgenstern said. “We chose the long and difficult road, and had to have huge shoulders to bear the criticism. We did the best we could with the information we had at the time.”
Miami Herald staff writers David Ovalle and Audra D.S. Burch contributed to this report.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/v-fullstory/2706876/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy
Doc Safari
03-22-12, 12:41
With the amount of news coverage and protests coupled with the horrible housing market, economy, unemployment and so forth does anyone else see the potential for a Rodney King type incident unfolding?
...And that it is being orchestrated by the Cass Sunstein types so that it de facto trumps up some reasons to implement a certain executive order we were just talking about on another thread.
I know the tinfoil is strong right now, and I only said that because it gets people thinking.
But it's scary to see the logical flow of how all these things just might end up working together.
I fully expect riots in big cities by summer.
montanadave
03-22-12, 16:19
The Sanford, FL police chief just stepped down "temporarily," stating his continuing presence had become a "distraction" in the face of allegations he had mishandled the Martin case, as well as several other previous cases involving black youths and cases involving relatives of police officers on his force.
The Sanford, FL police chief just stepped down "temporarily," stating his continuing presence had become a "distraction" in the face of allegations he had mishandled the Martin case, as well as several other previous cases involving black youths as well as relatives of police officers on his force.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57402714-504083/sanford-fla-police-chief-bill-lee-steps-down-temporarily-amid-trayvon-martin-controversy/
What I want to know is why Mr. Blockwatch Captain even confronted this person to begin with? Why did he pull a weapon on someone who was unarmed? Why didn't he stand down when he was told to?
That's the key question, right there. Why was he trying to do law enforcement? He'd already talked to the cops and they were on the way, and he never made any reference in his 911 calls that he thought the kid was armed or that any of his neighbors' lives were at risk.
Sounds to me like he decided to confront a trespasser, got popped in the nose in the ensuing confrontation, and felt he subsequently had to defend himself with lethal force. I can see under the law where he now felt in fear for his life and therefore justified in defending himself, but it was a confrontation of his own making.
This might be a weak spot in the "Stand Your Ground" legislative concept and I'll bet it has a chilling effect on any such legislation pending in any of the states at present.
Moose-Knuckle
03-22-12, 17:25
IF the DOJ tries to hang an albatross around Zimmerman's neck I sure wished I could be on his jury. . .
If anyone gets wind of a legal fund for him give a shout out in this thread and I will contribute.
Sounds to me like he decided to confront a trespasser, got popped in the nose in the ensuing confrontation, and felt he subsequently had to defend himself with lethal force. I can see under the law where he now felt in fear for his life and therefore justified in defending himself, but it was a confrontation of his own making.
This might be a weak spot in the "Stand Your Ground" legislative concept and I'll bet it has a chilling effect on any such legislation pending in any of the states at present.
Can you please tell me where you are getting your opinions. That is to say, no one outside of the media has claimed that Zimmerman confronted Martin or even followed him after the police dispatcher told him that his pursuit was not needed. That is all speculation created by the media and the race-bait lobby. Zimmerman claims that he abandoned the pursuit at the end of the 911 call when he lost sight of Martin. He has maintained that Martin then initiated the confrontation and attacked him while he was walking back to the car. The police have reported that 6 witness support Zimmerman's story; including 1 man who saw Martin delivering blows from a dominant position to Zimmerman who was on his back calling for help.
If we are going into the realm of speculation, you are going to have a hard time convincing me that a 240lb fatass chased down 17-year old athlete (remember, everyone is claiming that Martin ran away) to initiate a confrontation. It seems far more likely to me that exact opposite happened.
Can you please tell me where you are getting your opinions. That is to say, no one outside of the media has claimed that Zimmerman confronted Martin or even followed him after the police dispatcher told him that his pursuit was not needed. That is all speculation created by the media and the race-bait lobby. Zimmerman claims that he abandoned the pursuit at the end of the 911 call when he lost sight of Martin. He has maintained that Martin then initiated the confrontation and attacked him while he was walking back to the car. The police have reported that 6 witness support Zimmerman's story; including 1 man who saw Martin delivering blows from a dominant position to Zimmerman who was on his back calling for help.
If we are going into the realm of speculation, you are going to have a hard time convincing me that a 240lb fatass chased down 17-year old athlete (remember, everyone is claiming that Martin ran away) to initiate a confrontation. It seems far more likely to me that exact opposite happened.
Quick question:
If what you just described actually did happen, could Zimmerman still be held responsible for inciting a reaction from Martin because Z started to chase him down despite the suggestion that was made to him?
If we are going into the realm of speculation, you are going to have a hard time convincing me that a 240lb fatass chased down 17-year old athlete (remember, everyone is claiming that Martin ran away) to initiate a confrontation. It seems far more likely to me that exact opposite happened.
Yes, I'm speculating, and no, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.
Looks like Al Sharpton is down in Sanford stirring the pot. :rolleyes: I love how he claims he wants justice for Martin, when in reality he probably could care less who Trayvon Martin is. My guess is that this will be used to repeal the Stand Your Ground law in FL. One bad case and the race baiters will fu** it for the rest of FL residents.
Quick question:
If what you just described actually did happen, could Zimmerman still be held responsible for inciting a reaction from Martin because Z started to chase him down despite the suggestion that was made to him?
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer but I doubt it. As a potential juror, I could be persuaded to believe that Zimmerman acted in self-defense by using a lethal weapon if there is evidence that he was being severely beaten despite offering no real threat to Martin. It really does not matter who initiated the contact if one party is using force beyond what is necessary to end a threat. That is to say, I cannot continue to punch and kick your semi-conscious body simply because you committed battery by slapping me in the face. Likewise, Martin cannot teach Zimmerman a lesson by beating him for an percieved episode of racial profiling (the scenario that some propose). It becomes even more clear-cut case of self-defense if Zimmerman was walking back to his car (i.e. removing himself as a threat) and was attacked.
It should be noted that all of these scenarios are pure speculation. I'm simply correcting all of the opinion that is being passed around as fact. The truth is that nobody knows who initiated the contact and it may not matter. If Martin gained a dominant position and continued to use potentially lethal force on an opponent who was offering no threat, he opens up the possibility of lethal force being used by his opponent.
After listening to a couple of the 911 calls and reading some articles, my opinion is that Martin was the victim----
BUT REGARDLESS of that being true or not, I feel that by Sharpton involving himself, that side of the story can potentially be marginalized because we all know the whores that these "civil rights leaders" are. This is a net loss for the Martins, IMO. Like someone said, these people don't give a **** about Martin or his family...
After listening to a couple of the 911 calls and reading some articles, my opinion is that Martin was the victim----
BUT REGARDLESS of that being true or not, I feel that by Sharpton involving himself, that side of the story can potentially be marginalized because we all know the whores that these "civil rights leaders" are. This is a net loss for the Martins, IMO. Like someone said, these people don't give a **** about Martin or his family...
I'm waiting to see the original witness statements and GJ summary before I go on the record. I'm also curious to see who will defend this guy. I imagine that plenty of defense lawyers will be tripping over themselves to represent him pro bono for the publicity.
Also, good luck finding an untainted jury pool.
How long does it take for someone to analyze the audio tapes of the "Help! Help!" section and figure out whose voice it is? Everything I've heard and read is that people are assuming it's Martin's.
Why didn't the 13 year old Kansas boy get the same attention after 2 black guys dumped gasoline on him and let him on fire (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station2) last week? You don't hear anything about this hate crime on Fox news or talk radio.
"They rushed him on the porch as he tried to get the door open," Coon told KMBC. "(One of them) poured the gasoline, then flicked the Bic, and said, 'This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy.'"
By lighting the gasoline, the second attacker "produced a large fireball burning the face and hair" of the boy, according to a Kansas City Police Department report obtained by KCTV.
Why didn't the 13 year old Kansas boy get the same attention after 2 black guys dumped gasoline on him and let him on fire (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station2) last week? You don't hear anything about this hate crime on Fox news or talk radio.
In all honesty, this one didn't get headlines (yet) because he suffered relatively minor injuries with only 1st degree burns. Damn lucky kid. However, I agree with your larger point and fear what my response might have been if it was my child who was seriously wounded in such a manner.
Moose-Knuckle
03-23-12, 02:29
In all honesty, this one didn't get headlines (yet) because he suffered relatively minor injuries with only 1st degree burns.
There are much worse HATE CRIMES commited against whites here in the US that the DOJ and the national media "black out".
Like the kiddnapping, rape, sexual torture, and murders of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom).
Not to mention how when their families and friends protested the media blackout of this atrocity the oxygen thieves "community" rallied and jeered making public statements like "every time privileged whites get hurt we will celebrate".
"According to the testimony of the Knox County Acting Medical Examiner Dr. Darinka Mileusnic-Polchan at the subsequent trial of Eric Boyd, Newsom was repeatedly sodomized with an object and then blindfolded, gagged, arms and feet bound and his head covered. Barefoot, he was either led or dragged outside the house to a set of nearby railroad tracks. He was shot in the back of the head, the neck, and the back, and his body then set on fire.
Channon's death came only after hours of sexual torture, medical examiner Mileusnic-Polchan testified. Channon suffered horrific injuries to her vagina, anus and mouth. She was not only raped but savaged with "an object," possibly a broken chair leg, the doctor testified. She was beaten in the head. Some type of chemical was poured down her throat, and her body, including her bleeding and battered genital area, likely scrubbed with the same solution - all while Channon was alive, the forensic expert said. She was then "hog-tied," with curtains and strips of bedding, her face covered tightly with a small trash bag and her body stashed inside five large trash bags before being placed inside a large trash can and covered with sheets. Channon died slowly, suffocating, the medical examiner said".
There are much worse HATE CRIMES commited against whites here in the US that the DOJ and the national media "black out".
Like the kiddnapping, rape, sexual torture, and murders of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom).
Not to mention how when their families and friends protested the media blackout of this atrocity the oxygen thieves "community" rallied and jeered making public statements like "every time privileged whites get hurt we will celebrate".
Utterly disgusting. And I had never heard of this either. This double standard thus makes the whole thing even more disgusting.
The Komsomolskaya Pravda [of the USSR] might as well be more transparent than our media sources.
Like the kiddnapping, rape, sexual torture, and murders of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom).
Sickening, literally.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/Channon_christian_Christopher_newsom.jpg
Sickening, literally.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/Channon_christian_Christopher_newsom.jpg
If it happens to white people, it can't be racist/racially motivated. :bad:
Dispatch records:
7:09 p.m. ET
Dispatcher: "Do you need police, fire or medical?"
Zimmerman: "We had some break-ins in our neighborhood ... and there is a real suspicious guy. ... This guy looks like he's up to no good, he's on drugs or something. It's raining, and he's walking around looking about. "
Dispatcher: "Is this guy white, black, Hispanic?"
Zimmerman: "He looks black."
Dispatcher: "Did you see what he's wearing?"
Zimmerman: "A dark hoodie, grey hoodie, jeans or sweatpants or white shoes. He's walking around staring at the houses. Now he's just staring at me."
Dispatcher: "Location?"
Zimmerman: "He's near the clubhouse right now. Now he's coming towards me. He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something's wrong with him. Yep. He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Send officers over here."
Dispatcher: "Let me know if he does anything else."
Zimmerman: "These a**holes, they always get away. When you come in go straight to the left ... when you pass the clubhouse ..."
Dispatcher: "Clubhouse?"
Zimmerman: "Go straight in. Oh, s***. He's running ... down towards the other entrance of neighborhood."
Dispatcher: "He's running? Which way is he running?"
Zimmerman: "Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood."
Dispatcher: "Which entrance is that, that he is running towards?
Zimmerman: "The back entrance."
[inaudible]
Dispatcher: "Are you following him?"
Zimmerman: "Yeah."
Dispatcher: "OK. We don't need you to do that. What's your name?"
Zimmerman: "George. Zimmerman."
Dispatcher: "Do you want to meet with the officer ..."
Zimmerman: "Tell them to come past the clubhouse and make a left then past mailboxes and they will see my truck ..."
Dispatcher: "What's your apartment number?"
Zimmerman: "It's a home. ... I don't want to give that out. I don't know who this kid is."
Dispatcher: "I will let them know where to meet you."
Zimmerman: "Have them call me, and I will let you know where I'm at."
All the others calling dispatch from houses etc, here:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-after-florida-teen-is-shot/
QuietShootr
03-23-12, 10:28
Tawana Brawley? Anyone remember her?
http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/23/obama-calls-florida-shooting-death-tragedy-says-his-son-would-look-like-trayvon/
ForTehNguyen
03-23-12, 13:26
Race card and anti self defense card pulled:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/stand-your-ground-self-defense-gun-law-draws-2250337.html?printArticle=y
'Stand your ground' self-defense gun law draws protests — and governor advises new look at it
By DARA KAM
Palm Beach County Capital Bureau
Updated: 11:40 p.m. Tuesday, March 20, 2012
Posted: 8:48 p.m. Tuesday, March 20, 2012
In a surprise meeting with black lawyers and civil activists Tuesday, Gov. Rick Scott said the shooting of an unarmed 17-year-old by a neighborhood watch volunteer raised concerns about the state's "stand your ground" law that critics say is letting some get away with murder.
Scott unexpectedly joined the group of about 50 protestors in the lobby of his office Tuesday, saying lawmakers should perhaps revisit the first-in-the-nation law after the investigation into last month's shooting death of Trayvon Martin, the subject of national outrage and a potential racial powder-keg, is complete.
"If there's something wrong with the law that's in place, I think it's important we address it. I'm going to look at it. If what's happening is it's being abused, that's not right. We all want to live in a safe place," Scott said.
The impromptu meeting came alongside demands from Democratic lawmakers to clarify the law, passed in 2005, which allows individuals to use of deadly force when they feel threatened.
George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer in a gated community in Sanford, claims he shot Martin, who is black, in self-defense during a confrontation on Feb 26. Local officials have not charged him with any crime, sparking a national outcry from black leaders and civil rights activists accusing the Orlando-area prosecutors and police officials of racism.
Seminole County State Attorney Norm Wolfinger announced Tuesday a grand jury will investigate the shooting next month. Late Monday night, Scott ordered the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to cooperate with the Sanford Police Department inquiry, and the U.S. Department of Justice is also investigating.
Celebrities including Cher, Mia Farrow, Wyclef Jean and Spike Lee have joined in the furor over Martin's shooting and are participating in an on-line petition drive demanding that Wolfinger charge Zimmerman with murder. Nearly 500,000 signed onto the petition drive as of Tuesday afternoon.
Al Sharpton plans to meet with community leaders in Sanford on Thursday. Martin's killing has shined an unwelcome spotlight on the Florida's "Castle Doctrine" law, promoted by the National Rifle Association and which became a model for other states.
"Any time we see something like that we have to review and make sure we're not giving people the opportunity to use the law unfairly," Scott told reporters earlier in the day.
Sen. Chris Smith, a lawyer, said he plans to file legislation to close what he called a gray area in the law. "The language is vague so what we want to do is point out that you cannot initiate contact," said Smith, D-Fort Lauderdale, who voted against the bill while in the Florida House in 2005.
Smith said justifiable homicide has increased three-fold since the "stand your grand" law went into effect seven years ago, with many of the victims black. "What it's done is, it has emboldened those who are sometimes looking for confrontation, because they realize they have the shield of this law. This is a classic case of, if it's my word against yours and you happen to be dead, there's no way of knowing," he said. black victims of justifiable homicide?
Sen. Oscar Braynon, D-Miami Gardens, on Tuesday asked Senate President Mike Haridopolos, R-Merritt Island, to hold legislative hearings about how the law has been used by law enforcement, prosecutors, public defenders and defense lawyers. Martin's mother lives in Braynon's senate district.
"This law was never intended to be a blanket of protection for neighborhood vigilantes who think that they can bypass law enforcement instructions and shoot anyone they see fit," Braynon, a lawyer.
The Martin shooting is the latest in a string of controversial cases in which shooters like Zimmerman invoked the law in their defense, including at least six Palm Beach County cases in which killers were not punished.
In 2007, Norman Borden became the first Palm Beach County defendant to beat murder charges under the law. In that case, Borden fired 14 shots at three men, killing two, who he said shouted threats at him and tried to run him over in a Jeep as he walked his four dogs.
In 2010, a jury acquitted Timothy McTigue of murder charges in the 2007 shooting of Michael Palmer, who was unarmed. The strangers exchanged words and fought briefly before McTigue shot him in the head.
Last year, a judge dismissed two first-degree murder charges against Michael Monahan, who shot Raymond Mohlman and Matthew Vittum to death during a dispute aboard a sailboat.
But in 2010, a Naples judge refused to allow a suspect in the shooting death of a high school student to gain immunity under the law. James Menard was convicted of the murder of 17-year-old Jake Couture in that case.
Martin was the latest unarmed victim whose assailant has used the law as a defense, prompting the lawyers who marched to Scott's office to demand scrutiny of the law. "These problems are racial profiling, the abuse of police discretion and the abuse of prosecutorial discretion. Trayvon Martin is dead because of racial profiling," attorney Mutaquee Akbar told Scott, reading from a prepared letter.
"Death is the ultimate and most final result of a problem that has plagued our community for centuries. It can no longer be ignored," Akbar said. "George Zimmerman is walking free today because of this abuse."
Scott replied: "I'll do everything I can to make sure justice prevails."
But one of the sponsors of the 2005 measure defended the law, citing reports that Zimmerman ignored the advice of a 911 operator who told Zimmerman to stay away from Martin.
"Invariably when there's any adverse incident, it's open season for anti-gun factions to disseminate this idea that there's something wrong with 'stand your ground,'" said Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, who sponsored the measure. "There's nothing in 'stand your ground' that authorizes anyone to pursue and confront an individual. That's the problem in this case. Let them do a bill about that."
The racial tension surrounding the Sanford shooting should not take away from the positive results the law has had by allowing potential victims to protect themselves, Baxley said. "It has stopped a lot of victimization from occurring. And that's what I get thanked for every week almost from someone. I think it defends those people. It defends everyone. If they're under violent attack they have the authority to stop that," he said.
NRA lobbyist Marion Hammer, who pushed for the law, agreed. She said the call for action is premature, because the law allows an arrest to take place after an investigation.
"So for law enforcement to rush to judgment just because they are being stampeded by emotionalism would be a violation of law," she said. "This law is not about one incident. It's about protecting the right of law-abiding people to protect themselves when they are attacked. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the law. And if the governor wants to waste time looking at it he can knock himself out."
Belmont31R
03-23-12, 13:39
I hate when people refer to criminals who end up getting shot (lawfully) as 'victims'. Its a sly little way to muddle the distinction between a lawful case of self defense and murder. People who are murdered are victims. People who are shot during a criminal act are not victims.
QuietShootr
03-23-12, 13:42
I hate when people refer to criminals who end up getting shot (lawfully) as 'victims'. Its a sly little way to muddle the distinction between a lawful case of self defense and murder. People who are murdered are victims. People who are shot during a criminal act are not victims.
Don't forget "young men" or "teens" (translation: black males).
Geraldo Rivera is a complete douche nozzle. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74392.html
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-23-12, 13:53
Has anyone caught Jeffery Toobin's breathless arguements as CNNs legal expert that this guy was killed because of concealed carry and the stand your ground?
What was Zimmerman's prior crime? How did he buy a gun and get a CCW?
What would have happened if Zimmerman had kept his pie hole shut and waited for a lawyer before making a statement?
Belmont31R
03-23-12, 14:08
For ****s sake. What do the Feds have anything to do with this?
Brian Terry gets murdered and its swept under the rug. A black male, who was 6 foot 3, gets shot, and Obama goes on TV while sicking DOJ/FBI on the case.
"My main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. You know, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon. And you know, I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and that we're get to the bottom of exactly what happened," Obama said in response to a shouted question in the White House Rose Garden.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-had-son-d-look-trayvon-144936867.html
Moose-Knuckle
03-23-12, 15:22
One thing is for certain, this case will be exploited and utilized as an engine of social change. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.
And I wasn't kidding, if anyone gets wind of a legal fund for Zimmerman I'll put my money will my mouth is.
Race card and anti self defense card pulled:
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/stand-your-ground-self-defense-gun-law-draws-2250337.html?printArticle=y
"Smith said justifiable homicide has increased three-fold since the 'stand your grand' law went into effect seven years ago,"
And that's a bad thing why?
"with many of the victims black."
How exactly is that relevant to the discussion?
For ****s sake. What do the Feds have anything to do with this?
Brian Terry gets murdered and its swept under the rug. A black male, who was 6 foot 3, gets shot, and Obama goes on TV while sicking DOJ/FBI on the case.
Absolutely disgusting that the POTUS is involving himself in this. If this was a white kid that was shot, there would be nothing from the President.
How come the 2 British tourists who were made to pull their shorts down around their ankles before a black guy executed them in Florida isn't all over the news? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118785/Shawn-Tyson-said-murdered-James-Cooper-James-Kouzaris-Sarasota-Florida.html
Belmont31R
03-23-12, 17:13
How come the 2 British tourists who were made to pull their shorts down around their ankles before a black guy executed them in Florida isn't all over the news? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118785/Shawn-Tyson-said-murdered-James-Cooper-James-Kouzaris-Sarasota-Florida.html
We all know the answer.
Belmont31R
03-23-12, 17:19
Absolutely disgusting that the POTUS is involving himself in this. If this was a white kid that was shot, there would be nothing from the President.
I think he is looking to rally blacks and the anti gun crew around his reelection.
But he did the same shit with the black professor and the "beer summit". He is looking for an identity other than a president who has worse unemployment numbers than when he came into office and still numerous large issues floating around. Gotta distract the masses from the real issues and give people talking points. :rolleyes:
The internet helps display the absolute blatant hypocrisy of the media's agenda like never before.
I don't know if the Hispanic man was right or wrong shooting the black guy, but how quickly the media wanted to paint "White CCW holder in gated neighborhood murders innocent black child" was instant - long before the facts they had established their stereotype and story.
NCPatrolAR
03-23-12, 18:13
What would have happened if Zimmerman had kept his pie hole shut and waited for a lawyer before making a statement?
probably nothing different. The 911 tape frames a lot...especially his "these assholes always get away" IMO
Littlelebowski
03-23-12, 18:31
Obama pissed me off so much today, i had to vent on my blog.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk
Obama pissed me off so much today, i had to vent on my blog.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk
Well said!
ForTehNguyen
03-23-12, 19:22
this whole coverage is getting all out silly. How the heck is this guy going to get a fair trial now. Not only that the race baiters are coming out in full force:
Trayvon Martin case: 'Blacks are under attack,' says Jesse Jackson (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story)
what about all the black on black violence that happens everyday in many cities across the US? JJ doesnt come out for them.
this whole coverage is getting all out silly. How the heck is this guy going to get a fair trial now. Not only that the race baiters are coming out in full force:
Trayvon Martin case: 'Blacks are under attack,' says Jesse Jackson (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story)
Won't be the first circus trial in the Orlando area. We just got done with Casey Anthony last year....
Sent from my Evo 3D using Tapatalk
this whole coverage is getting all out silly. How the heck is this guy going to get a fair trial now. Not only that the race baiters are coming out in full force:
Trayvon Martin case: 'Blacks are under attack,' says Jesse Jackson (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story)
what about all the black on black violence that happens everyday in many cities across the US? JJ doesnt come out for them.
Gee, I wonder what Jackson has to say about the shootings in Chicago where a 6 year old girl along with 9 others were shot and killed plus 40 wounded by gangbangers doing drive bys? Oh, wait. He hasn't said a damn thing. F-ing hypocrite.
Tackleberry goes full Mall Ninja. What are your questions?....
QuietShootr
03-23-12, 21:03
Tackleberry goes full Mall Ninja. What are your questions?....
We already know the prescribed MSM narrative. Now we're just waiting to see what REALLY happened.
DeltaSierra
03-23-12, 21:16
Dispatch records:...
I found this to be a rather interesting tidbit...
"While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and he was covered in grass, as if he was laying on his back on the ground," Smith wrote in the police report. "Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of the head."
But, lets not let the facts get in the way, now. Obviously, Zimmerman was in the wrong.....:rolleyes:
I found this to be a rather interesting tidbit...
"While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and he was covered in grass, as if he was laying on his back on the ground," Smith wrote in the police report. "Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of the head."
But, lets not let the facts get in the way, now. Obviously, Zimmerman was in the wrong.....:rolleyes:
Even if that were true (which I don't dispute), we still don't know who started the altercation. If Zimmerman attacked Martin, Martin would have every right to defend himself. Leaving his truck to go after this kid on foot was stupid, plain and simple.
DeltaSierra
03-23-12, 22:57
Even if that were true (which I don't dispute), we still don't know who started the altercation. If Zimmerman attacked Martin, Martin would have every right to defend himself. Leaving his truck to go after this kid on foot was stupid, plain and simple.
Of course it was stupid. I don't think anyone is disputing that.
Whether or not Zimmerman is in the wrong remains to be seen, so why not leave the speculation behind, and wait to see what the decision of the jury is?
I don't have any particular feelings on this issue, other than that I think the whole thing is a complicated mess that could have easily been avoided...
An Undocumented Worker
03-23-12, 23:07
If there is one thing that appears to be true about this case, is that either party can be made to appear to be the bad guy using some of the facts available. We don't appear to have all of the facts available and I'm really not sure what to think about it anymore.
If Zimmerman has charges brought against him and he goes to court, whether he is acquitted or convicted CCW holders will lose some respect that we have worked hard for over the years. Is it fair? absolutely not.
I can only hope that the whole truth about this case comes out, from the actions of both parties involved in the shooting, to the actions of the police force and the following investigation. The whole thing is a serious SNAFU.
Edit
Oh and Delta Sierra needs to stop reading my mind.
Of course it was stupid. I don't think anyone is disputing that.
Whether or not Zimmerman is in the wrong remains to be seen, so why not leave the speculation behind, and wait to see what the decision of the jury is?
I don't have any particular feelings on this issue, other than that I think the whole thing is a complicated mess that could have easily been avoided...
I think you are exactly right. A simple, "hey dude, are you in in the neighborhood" could have probably side stepped the kid's feeling of being tailed....but the kid could have/should have just headed home and told pops that someone was tailing him. Both individuals made a very fateful choice and unfortunately everyone who doesn't scream "murderer" is viewed with contempt by the followers of RaceBait, Inc.
Geroge Zimmerman Leaves A Voicemail On The Father Of Travon Matrin's Answering Machine! (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhg7Oz7klxYs8PF9b8)
What's he trying to prove with this?
"Hey Mr. Taaffee. This is George. Um, first and foremost, I wanted to say I am very sorry for the loss of your son, and, um, I can't imagine what you must be going through. Um, secondly, I wanted to thank you for doing everything you've been doing. Um, I know you don't have to, and I appreciate it, and you're truly setting an example for me for the future of, uh, doing the right thing even when it's tough, and, uh, I appreciate it. I'll talk to you soon," Zimmerman said in the message"
Geroge Zimmerman Leaves A Voicemail On The Father Of Travon Matrin's Answering Machine! (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhg7Oz7klxYs8PF9b8)
What's he trying to prove with this?
"Hey Mr. Taaffee. This is George. Um, first and foremost, I wanted to say I am very sorry for the loss of your son, and, um, I can't imagine what you must be going through. Um, secondly, I wanted to thank you for doing everything you've been doing. Um, I know you don't have to, and I appreciate it, and you're truly setting an example for me for the future of, uh, doing the right thing even when it's tough, and, uh, I appreciate it. I'll talk to you soon," Zimmerman said in the message"
Jesus jumping Christ. This guy is seriously retarded.
Everytime something like this happens, the morons on both sides come out. Rather than waiting for the investigation(s) to conclude, they jump to conclusions based on their own biases and delusions. On one side, you have the Sharptons and all and the other, you have m4c members ready to put out for a legal defense fund for, what seems to be, a moron playing police officer.
This whole mess could have been avoided if wanna-be cop had just done his job to observe and report. This ****tard just put gun rights and self defense laws under a microscope.
I'm neither condemning him nor exonerating him until the investigation is over but it doesn't seem to me like he is someone who is fit, by character, NOT by law or constitution, to carry a slingshot much less a gun.
Geroge Zimmerman Leaves A Voicemail On The Father Of Travon Matrin's Answering Machine! (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhg7Oz7klxYs8PF9b8)
What's he trying to prove with this?
"Hey Mr. Taaffee. This is George. Um, first and foremost, I wanted to say I am very sorry for the loss of your son, and, um, I can't imagine what you must be going through. Um, secondly, I wanted to thank you for doing everything you've been doing. Um, I know you don't have to, and I appreciate it, and you're truly setting an example for me for the future of, uh, doing the right thing even when it's tough, and, uh, I appreciate it. I'll talk to you soon," Zimmerman said in the message"
I would not believe everything that you read on the Internet.
I have been following info on some other websites and there appears to be alot of bad info circulating as well as info that makes you go, WTF?
1. Apparently Zimmerman didn't follow the teen (after talking to dispatch) and was headed to his car when the teen approached him.
2. One witness claims that the teen was on top of Zimmerman striking him. Supposedly his clothing had grass stains and his face showed sigs of being struck.
3. The "teen" is 17 years old, is about 6'3 and over 200lbs. Apparently he played HS ball and had recently been suspended for something.
4. The media persists on calling Zimmerman even though his family clearly identifies him as Hispanic. There are also alot of facts about area being distorted as well.
Initially I thought the guy was an idiot, but I may have been hasty. I hope that we will learn some truth. Additionally I fear that because of past behaviour by certain groups of people after they didn't get the verdicts they wanted we will either see violence or a bad trial due to the fear of violence.
Additionally I fear that because of past behaviour by certain groups of people after they didn't get the verdicts they wanted we will either see violence or a bad trial due to the fear of violence.
Exactly what I was thinking.
The way I see it, its a lose lose.
Not Guilty Verdict = Possible retaliation/riots by certain groups
Guilty Verdict = Possible gun legislation being spun off of this incident
QuietShootr
03-24-12, 08:27
I have been following info on some other websites and there appears to be alot of bad info circulating as well as info that makes you go, WTF?
1. Apparently Zimmerman didn't follow the teen (after talking to dispatch) and was headed to his car when the teen approached him.
2. One witness claims that the teen was on top of Zimmerman striking him. Supposedly his clothing had grass stains and his face showed sigs of being struck.
3. The "teen" is 17 years old, is about 6'3 and over 200lbs. Apparently he played HS ball and had recently been suspended for something.
4. The media persists on calling Zimmerman even though his family clearly identifies him as Hispanic. There are also alot of facts about area being distorted as well.
Initially I thought the guy was an idiot, but I may have been hasty. I hope that we will learn some truth. Additionally I fear that because of past behaviour by certain groups of people after they didn't get the verdicts they wanted we will either see violence or a bad trial due to the fear of violence.
Yup...the truth is starting to come out. Instead of Earl The Redneck KKK NRA Member shooting poor, innocent, tiny Urkel on the way from Bible study on his way to Chess Club, we might have something more like 'sorta dipshit neighborhood watch guy follows someone who he knows doesn't belong in the neighborhood, breaks off when the cops tell him to, but he has already "dissed" the thug in question by following him. Said thug proceeds to beat his ass and gets shot.'
Of course, Zimmerman is as good as hanged, because the narrative has been decided on, so the facts don't really matter because of the colors involved.
You know, 100% of the people who have pointed a gun at me in earnest outside the Army have been black... and I pray to God that I never ever have to shoot a black assailant, because unless I'm in my home town the chances of getting a fair shake are somewhere between Slim and None, and Slim is on his way out of town.
Folks no need to worry....there wont be any riots regardless of income.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
DeltaSierra
03-24-12, 08:35
Folks no need to worry....there wont be any riots regardless of income.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
:confused:
Not sure what you are trying to say.....
I think he's addressing income disparities. The main news narrative was rich white man in gated community kills poor black teen .
I really don't like it - but the main issue of this is race. I would love for people to just be upset about income here - but whether or not its true, from the beginning the focus from the media has been race and the likelihood that "Tray was killed because he was an innocent black boy in a privileged white neighborhood"
[B]Even without all the facts in place, there are very large groups of people (both black and white) who sincerely believe a innocent little black boy was killed because of white racism.
It doesn't matter if it turns out he wasn't a little boy, or maybe he wasn't perfectly innocent, or maybe Zimmerman is actually hispanic, or maybe Zimmerman wasn't even racist, or maybe the gated community wasn't really a elite conclave of white privilege - the original narrative has been established in the minds of millions of upset people.
QuietShootr
03-24-12, 09:09
I think he's addressing income disparities. The main news narrative was rich white man in gated community kills poor black teen .
I really don't like it - but the main issue of this is race. I would love for people to just be upset about income here - but whether or not its true, from the beginning the focus from the media has been race and the likelihood that "Tray was killed because he was an innocent black boy in a privileged white neighborhood"
[B]Even without all the facts in place, there are very large groups of people (both black and white) who sincerely believe a innocent little black boy was killed because of white racism.
It doesn't matter if it turns out he wasn't a little boy, or maybe he wasn't perfectly innocent, or maybe Zimmerman is actually hispanic, or maybe Zimmerman wasn't even racist, or maybe the gated community wasn't really a elite concave of white privilege - the original narrative has been established in the minds of millions of upset people.
This.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-24-12, 10:11
Why is the only pic in the media we have of Zimmerman in the media looks like a mug shot? Kind of a pissed off look, stud earring and a prison jumpsuit color polo? Martin's picture may be even more misleading since it is about five years old by the look of it.
Zimmerman better get a better pic out there. He should get some family pics out that shows the suppossed diversity in his family and friends. You are never going to win the PR battle in the MSM, but at least make it harder for them.
PS-I had done a google image search on Jorge Zimmerman and a page of the 'mug shot' pic. My 4 year old daughter came by and I asked her if that was a good or bad guy. No hesitation, 'Bad guy'. Z-man is loosing the battle litterally on prima facie.
More and more this looks like a media hit job to me. Only glowing reports of the dead kid and bad reports and photo of the shooter. If Obama had a son he'd look like that kid? Really?
If the kid had Zimmerman down and was punching him in the face, Zimmerman had to shoot him. If he didn't the kid might have gained control of the weapon and shot Zimmerman to death. Death is a long time.
To everyone who's falling in line with Obama and the media on crucifying Zimmerman, maybe you should stfu and either find some facts or look for some.
And to those in the media and elsewhere (Obama) who want to perpetuate or start a race war, Eat My Ass. It's been obvious for a long time that colorblind is not the goal and that pisses me completely off.
Animal_Mother556
03-24-12, 10:36
Why is the only pic in the media we have of Zimmerman in the media looks like a mug shot? Kind of a pissed off look, stud earring and a prison jumpsuit color polo? Martin's picture may be even more misleading since it is about five years old by the look of it.
This is the FIRST thing I noticed when this shitstorm popped off (pun intended). They said Zimmerman killed a teen. They showed two pictures. The Zimmerman mug shot (I was thinking "this is his mugshot from when he got arrested for shooting the teen") and the Trayvon picture (I was thinking "Shit, this cat looks to be about 12 or 13...poor little shit").
THEN the news advises that Zimmerman was never arrested and Trayvon was 17! HUH??!???!
Cocksuckin', cumkissin', mellon-farmin' media. It'll getcha every time.
Animal_Mother556
03-24-12, 10:38
If Obama had a son he'd look like that kid? Really?
The picture does kinda look like it could be the cover of Barack, the Early Years.....I'm just sayin'...
The media knows how to setup the story they want to communicate (even if it is true).
Media Story:
Trayvon vs Zimmerman: http://jjie.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/trayvon_martin_george_zimmerman_2_jt_120318_wg.jpg
Here's an alternative version:
Zimmerman: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120323124314-pkg-todd-zimmerman-hometown-00010222-story-top.jpg
Trayvon: http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/369344_1353307542_1049213158_n.jpg
The above is Zimmerman's wedding photo and a recent photo of Trayvon (his current profile pic on Facebook)
Suddenly we have two pictures, one showing a younger smiling Zimmerman vs a Trayvon who is looking more like an adult male (neither unflattering) instead of "swarthy" looking inmate vs little boy.
I found these photos linked in comments on a couple news articles.
I only put them up for reference to how the media could have portrayed Trayvon if they had a completely different agenda to fill, such as saying Zimmerman was innocent vs Trayvon as a "thug"
I think we really should wait until trial though to make any conclusions, because it may very well be that Zimmerman murdered an innocent man due to racial prejudice and was let off because of an ingrained system of white privilege in the law enforcement community ... or it could be completely different.
Trayvon "alternative" 1: http://i.imgur.com/ahztA.jpg
Trayvon "alternative" 2: http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/trayvonslimmmartin/trayvonrecent.jpg
Pictures "paint a thousand words" and mass media editors know exactly what they're doing when they construct their stories. I'm sure this has jumped their ratings and ad revenues immensely. I am upset that it could result in innocent people being injured through angry people looking for justice or revenge.
(edit to fix URLs)
NCPatrolAR
03-24-12, 11:03
If the kid had Zimmerman down and was punching him in the face, Zimmerman had to shoot him.
Which, if Zimmerman is shown to been the aggressor, could lead to an imperfect self defense claim against a manslaughter charge.
And I dont agree that just because someone is mounted on you and punching you n the face that it instantly equals a lethal force situation. Sometimes it just means you are carrying a buttkicking home for your poor decision making ability.
Apparently the person he called was a friend of his in the neighborhood watch, not Martin's father.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/trayvon-martin-case-georg_n_1376444.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D146280
Geroge Zimmerman Leaves A Voicemail On The Father Of Travon Matrin's Answering Machine! (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhg7Oz7klxYs8PF9b8)
What's he trying to prove with this?
"Hey Mr. Taaffee. This is George. Um, first and foremost, I wanted to say I am very sorry for the loss of your son, and, um, I can't imagine what you must be going through. Um, secondly, I wanted to thank you for doing everything you've been doing. Um, I know you don't have to, and I appreciate it, and you're truly setting an example for me for the future of, uh, doing the right thing even when it's tough, and, uh, I appreciate it. I'll talk to you soon," Zimmerman said in the message"
ForTehNguyen
03-24-12, 11:35
interesting
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman
Updated: Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 6:19 PM EDT
Published : Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 5:47 PM EDT
ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.
The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.
Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.
What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.
The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.
It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.
Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.
And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.
But one man's testimony could be key for the police.
"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.
Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.
The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.
His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.
"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.
Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.
Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting
Heavy Metal
03-24-12, 11:37
As I have said before, if you are going to carry, you need to also carry a less than lethal option like Pepper Spray as well.
Which, if Zimmerman is shown to been the aggressor, could lead to an imperfect self defense claim against a manslaughter charge.
And I dont agree that just because someone is mounted on you and punching you n the face that it instantly equals a lethal force situation. Sometimes it just means you are carrying a buttkicking home for your poor decision making ability.
I'm going on the assumption that the kid attacked him because the guy was looking at him and had been following him. It's only my assumption. It's also my assumption that it was the kid screaming in the 911 call, screaming at Zimmerman.
Now that I think of it, the only times I've had to pull a gun were due to bad decisions.
Bad decisions on where to turn off of the interstate.
A bad decision to go tell someone they couldn't gig frogs in my pond whereupon they turned the frog gig upon me.
I make a lot less bad decisions now at 55 years old but I still won't take a beating. Who knows when beating will stop?
I'd like to add that as a member of the GOP I used to have a lot of respect for Jeb Bush. I had email conversations back and forth with him over the Dale Earnhardt autopsy, and the release of the photos. He shut the release of the photos down and did the right thing.
His latest statement in this case cost him the respect he earned from me in the other instance.
And before you harp on me about the GOP, I didn't run this time. I have ended my public political career and will now concentrate on getting conservatives and libertarians elected. No matter which party affiliation they choose to run under.
Moose-Knuckle
03-24-12, 15:06
And I dont agree that just because someone is mounted on you and punching you n the face that it instantly equals a lethal force situation. Sometimes it just means you are carrying a buttkicking home for your poor decision making ability.
I've known of several cases where a victim died after receiving blows about the head, face, and throat from nothing more than the aggressor's fists, much less a 17 YO 6' 3" 200lbs + "baby boy".
The more I find out about this case the more I see the blatant racism against whites in this country and bias against gun owners/CCW holders.
Just the fact alone that the media and race pimps refuse to acknowledged the fact that Zimmerman is a Hispanic male and not WHITE speaks volumes.
I found these photos linked in comments on a couple news articles.
I only put them up for reference to how the media could have portrayed Trayvon if they had a completely different agenda to fill, such as saying Zimmerman was innocent vs Trayvon as a "thug"
I think we really should wait until trial though to make any conclusions, because it may very well be that Zimmerman murdered an innocent man due to racial prejudice and was let off because of an ingrained system of white privilege in the law enforcement community ... or it could be completely different.
Trayvon "alternative" 1: http://i.imgur.com/ahztA.jpg
Trayvon "alternative" 2: http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/trayvonslimmmartin/trayvonrecent.jpg
Pictures "paint a thousand words" and mass media editors know exactly what they're doing when they construct their stories. I'm sure this has jumped their ratings and ad revenues immensely. I am upset that it could result in innocent people being injured through angry people looking for justice or revenge.
(edit to fix URLs)
In light of these more recent photos of Trayvon, participants in the Million Hoodie March are being asked to see their dentist and have their grill updated with gold crowns prior to participating in next week's activities. This will show your commitment and solidarity to The Martin Cause. Those participants who cannot afford this dental work may contact their local Center for Medicaid Services to apply for government assistance. Dentists who would like to donate their services to The Cause should contact Rev. Jackson's Rainbow Coalition.
"If I had grandparents, they would look like Bob and Nancy"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117695/Brutal-home-invasion-Oklahoma-couple-ends-65-year-romance-meeting-blind-date.html
I'm sure we'll see national coverage of this for the next two weeks :rolleyes:
"If I had grandparents, they would look like Bob and Nancy"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117695/Brutal-home-invasion-Oklahoma-couple-ends-65-year-romance-meeting-blind-date.html
I'm sure we'll see national coverage of this for the next two weeks :rolleyes:
A dodge neon, $200, and a TV.
What a shame.
Moose-Knuckle
03-24-12, 16:48
"If I had grandparents, they would look like Bob and Nancy"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117695/Brutal-home-invasion-Oklahoma-couple-ends-65-year-romance-meeting-blind-date.html
I'm sure we'll see national coverage of this for the next two weeks :rolleyes:
Just another hate crime that will go unpunished as such.
montanadave
03-24-12, 17:18
Just another hate crime that will go unpunished as such.
Like this one?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/03/iraqi-woman-el-cajon.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+lanowblog+%28L.A.+Now%29
Imagine there's going to be a lot of hue and cry over this woman?
Moose-Knuckle
03-24-12, 18:19
Like this one?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/03/iraqi-woman-el-cajon.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+lanowblog+%28L.A.+Now%29
Imagine there's going to be a lot of hue and cry over this woman?
Okay I'll bite, so who beat her? What was their race?
If one was to study the years leading up to the Rodney King riots you find a lot of hate crimes committed by African-Americans against Korean-Americans in S Central LA. During the riots black owned businesses (as such spray painted on the outside of the shop) were spared while the Korean owned businesses received the looter/arson treatment.
I always found the argument that the Koreans were imposing on their “turf” highly hypocritical. We’re seeing the same thing now here in TX with the explosion of Hispanic populations in what is perceived to be traditional black areas when thirty years earlier the great white flight occurred.
QuietShootr
03-24-12, 18:27
Like this one?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/03/iraqi-woman-el-cajon.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+lanowblog+%28L.A.+Now%29
Imagine there's going to be a lot of hue and cry over this woman?
I bet there won't be, because chances are excellent that another Iraqi did it.
SW-Shooter
03-24-12, 18:29
A lot of us are going to come out wrong on this, me inlcuded.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
QuietShootr
03-24-12, 18:30
Which, if Zimmerman is shown to been the aggressor, could lead to an imperfect self defense claim against a manslaughter charge.
And I dont agree that just because someone is mounted on you and punching you n the face that it instantly equals a lethal force situation. Sometimes it just means you are carrying a buttkicking home for your poor decision making ability.
I don't believe you wouldn't shoot someone who is beating the shit out of you. If you've been a cop longer than ten minutes you've seen or heard of someone getting their ass kicked to death, and I do not think you would let yourself get beat to the point of unconsciousness while you're armed. That's an unreasonable standard that you would NOT hold yourself to, so let's not hold anyone else to it either.
QuietShootr
03-24-12, 18:33
A lot of us are going to come out wrong on this, me inlcuded.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Oh, my...isn't that inconvenient.
Did anyone really think the cops just let this guy go because he was white? For ****in' real? If they didn't charge him, there probably wasn't ANYTHING they could even stretch to hang it on him or they would have done it. Ray ****ing Charles could have seen this coming.
SW-Shooter
03-24-12, 19:11
Oh, my...isn't that inconvenient.
Did anyone really think the cops just let this guy go because he was white? For ****in' real? If they didn't charge him, there probably wasn't ANYTHING they could even stretch to hang it on him or they would have done it. Ray ****ing Charles could have seen this coming.
I could only base my opinion from the information received via Internet, Fox, and MSM. All of which I knew to take with a grain of salt. I must also say that the past few days have revealed information that is confusing. There's the phone call that said martin was screaming "Help me", but now I found out that was Zimmerman screaming. A lot more is coming to light but I'm afraid that many in the media, and black public have already crucified Zimmerman. The lesson that can be learned here is don't play Mr. Policeman no matter how right you think you may be. The only thing this case will acomplish is for good law abiding citizens to ignore plea's for help, less they become a "snitch", this plays well into black street theology. We are doomed!
Moose-Knuckle
03-24-12, 19:37
New Black Panther Party offers $10,000 reward for Martin shooter
http://news.yahoo.com/10-000-reward-offered-us-black-teens-killer-201659364.html
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/stupid-people.jpg
Heavy Metal
03-24-12, 20:04
Incitement and Conspiracy to commit Kidnapping at best and to do likewise with Murder at worst.
That is not going to make things better.
Having just come back from the dentist to get my grill capped, I'm now ready to organize my first hoodie march to support Trayvon. However, I am sympathetic to the plight of the police who must shut down entire city blocks during these mass protests at untold expense. Thus, I propose that we organize in small groups of 2-3 hooded men and march on prominent apartment neighborhoods in your cities at 2300 hrs tonight. By spreading our resources, we should be able to simultaneously hit every neighborhood in most metropolitan areas without being a burden on the 911 system. See you on the streets...
I don't believe you wouldn't shoot someone who is beating the shit out of you. If you've been a cop longer than ten minutes you've seen or heard of someone getting their ass kicked to death, and I do not think you would let yourself get beat to the point of unconsciousness while you're armed. That's an unreasonable standard that you would NOT hold yourself to, so let's not hold anyone else to it either.
I agree.
Damn thing about it though is that what we hear as "facts" on this is from mainstream media and how biased is that now days? Fox included.
If in fact Martin was beating the shit out of Zimmerman and he shot him and was exonerated of it, what will happen then? Nothing good I assure you.
What really pisses me off is the POUSA is chiming in on this. Why? Why is this a national issue and in need of the attention of the POUSA?
Here locally, three young college students were raped by two blacks in hoodies in their college dorm. Where is the national attention on this? I know they are not dead, but are scared for life because of it. Where is the national sympathy for them?
This kind of bullshit has to stop.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-24-12, 21:21
New Black Panther Party offers $10,000 reward for Martin shooter
New Panther Party, same as the Old Panther Party....
Incitement and Conspiracy to commit Kidnapping at best and to do likewise with Murder at worst.
That is not going to make things better.
That's not violating anyones civil rights....
This all seems like the storyline from some old B&W western with Jimmy Stewart in it.
NCPatrolAR
03-24-12, 21:51
That's an unreasonable standard that you would NOT hold yourself to, so let's not hold anyone else to it either.
First, I'm not saying anyone has to lay there and take it. There's a reason I'm a huge advocate for people learning weapon and empty-hand skills.
Second, if I were the aggressor in a situation similar to the Zimmerman/Martin incident; then I'd either end up with a beating (if I were unable to take the guy in a struggle or I'd be looking at a manslaughter charge(at a minimum) if I shot and killed the guy that was on top of me (under NC law). Of course id likely not be in that boat as I wouldn't have been following the guy, let alone get out of my vehicle and look for him after he ran, in the first place
Moose-Knuckle
03-24-12, 21:54
What really pisses me off is the POUSA is chiming in on this. Why? Why is this a national issue and in need of the attention of the POUSA?
Because he's half black after all and has to show face as he wouldn't want to be labeled a "sell out" or an "Uncle Tom" coming up on an election.
Here locally, three young college students were raped by two blacks in hoodies in their college dorm. Where is the national attention on this? I know they are not dead, but are scared for life because of it. Where is the national sympathy for them?
This kind of bullshit has to stop.
This is a double HATE CRIME as those young women were targeted not only for their race but also their gender but mum is the word on such things in this great country.
montanadave
03-24-12, 22:09
Thanks for posting the information on the Florida law. Which raises a couple of questions.
If a guy claims he acted in self-defense and the authorities decide not to file charges, or even if they do and the guy is acquitted at trial, then is he immune from civil prosecution?
And who makes the judgment as to whether the use of force is justified and is there an appeals process in place to contest that judgment? Is failure by the authorities to file charges tantamount to ruling the use of force justified?
Doesn't this essentially remove any difference in the burden of proof required between criminal and civil cases?
This law seems to open up one hell of a can of worms.
A couple of days ago I posted these questions and have yet to hear a satisfactory answer. And apparently I'm not the only one that sees some real problems with the current Florida law.
Here's a more insightful analysis which again highlights some of the apparent inconsistencies in the law as it currently stands:
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2012/03/trayvon-martin-and-floridas-stand-your-ground-law.html
From the article cited above:
So what is truly distinctive about Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law? It is this: while self-defense conventionally is just that -- a defense, to be raised at trial -- self-defense under the Florida law acts as an immunity from prosecution or even arrest. Section 776.032 of the Florida Statutes provides that a person who uses deadly force in self-defense "is immune from criminal prosecution." This odd provision means that a person who uses deadly force in self-defense cannot be tried, even though the highly fact-intensive question of whether the person acted in self-defense is usually hashed out at trial. The law thus creates a paradox: the State must make a highly complex factual determination before being permitted to avail itself of the forum necessary to make such a determination.
What's that they say about unintended consequences?
Second, if I were the aggressor in a situation similar to the Zimmerman/Martin incident; then I'd either end up with a beating (if I were unable to take the guy in a struggle or I'd be looking at a manslaughter charge(at a minimum) if I shot and killed the guy that was on top of me (under NC law).
I guess the issue I have with your post (and much of the public opinion) is that you seem to assume that Zimmerman was the aggressor. This assumption seems perplexing given Zimmerman's statements, the witness statements, and that this version requires a 240 lbs obese man to chase down a 6'3" lean football player. I'm not say that you are wrong, it is just not what immediately comes to my mind as the likely scenerio.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-24-12, 23:24
A couple of days ago I posted these questions and have yet to hear a satisfactory answer. And apparently I'm not the only one that sees some real problems with the current Florida law.
Here's a more insightful analysis which again highlights some of the apparent inconsistencies in the law as it currently stands:
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2012/03/trayvon-martin-and-floridas-stand-your-ground-law.html
From the article cited above:
So what is truly distinctive about Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law? It is this: while self-defense conventionally is just that -- a defense, to be raised at trial -- self-defense under the Florida law acts as an immunity from prosecution or even arrest. Section 776.032 of the Florida Statutes provides that a person who uses deadly force in self-defense "is immune from criminal prosecution." This odd provision means that a person who uses deadly force in self-defense cannot be tried, even though the highly fact-intensive question of whether the person acted in self-defense is usually hashed out at trial. The law thus creates a paradox: the State must make a highly complex factual determination before being permitted to avail itself of the forum necessary to make such a determination.
What's that they say about unintended consequences?
A Grand Jury would be able to make that distinction, wouldn't it? Otherwise all anyone would have to do is say that they shot someone in self defense?
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-24-12, 23:34
New Black Panther Party offers $10,000 reward for Martin shooter
http://news.yahoo.com/10-000-reward-offered-us-black-teens-killer-201659364.html
Dick Gregory, comedian is quoted? Comedian? That's like saying Liz Taylor, hottie. When was the last time she was hot, let alone warm and when was Gregory funny?
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2012/03/24/bpr-lemon-panther-nzinga-martin-case.cnn
Kind of funny interview. CNN asks nBPP guy what they'll do after they get Zimmernann. After a tangential answer, he says they'll hand him over to the cops- and even the CNN guy is like "But they don't want him?"
Kind of like a dog chasing a car. What does it do when it catches it?
I guess the issue I have with your post (and much of the public opinion) is that you seem to assume that Zimmerman was the aggressor. This assumption seems perplexing given Zimmerman's statements, the witness statements, and that this version requires a 240 lbs obese man to chase down a 6'3" lean football player. I'm not say that you are wrong, it is just not what immediately comes to my mind as the likely scenerio.
Just getting out of the vehicle to go after Martin on foot makes Zimmerman, if not the aggressor, at least the instigator. If I saw some dude slow-creeping after me in a truck, and then get out and come after me on foot, I would have a pretty reasonable suspicion he was up to no good.
The more I see and read, the more I think this was a giant miscommunication/misunderstanding between both of them, and escalated into a fight that ended with one guy dead and another guy wishing he'd never gotten out of the truck to play Batman.
The more I see and read, the more I think this was a giant miscommunication/misunderstanding between both of them, and escalated into a fight that ended with one guy dead and another guy wishing he'd never gotten out of the truck to play Batman.
Agreed.
I don't think anyone disputes that Zimmerman instigated the situation by following and then foot chasing Martin. This was clearly not a bright idea. However, I'm not sure that these mistakes warrant a severe beating if he had given up the chase.
The first question that really needs to be answered is what happened after the 911 call when contact between the two was re-established (remember that both sides seem to agree that Martin initially eluded Zimmerman). Did Zimmerman really loose sight of Martin and get ambushed as he was returning to his car? Or, did Zimmerman run into Martin as he was hiding behind some corner and talking on the phone with his GF? Both possibilities are plausible, but the first option gives Zimmerman a lot more cover for a self-defense plea.
The next question that needs to be answered is: when in their struggle did Zimmerman deploy his weapon? Did Zimmerman take just a few punches before firing? Or, was he on his back, offering no meaningful resistance, and truly in fear of his life? For me, this question is more important than the first (i.e. you can't try to beat someone to death for slapping your face).
I have a real hard time handicapping this case without knowing these answers. On the other hand, I've grown weary of pundants assuming the answers to these questions to further their agenda.
Reagans Rascals
03-25-12, 02:25
New Black Panther Party offers $10,000 reward for Martin shooter
http://news.yahoo.com/10-000-reward-offered-us-black-teens-killer-201659364.html
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/stupid-people.jpg
hmmm... for $10,000 I think I saw Zimmerman proposition Martin for a hobo jerk down and when Martin refused, Zimmerman then made a sexually charged advanced, in the heat of passion towards Martin, Martin attempted to flee, and was then shot by Zimmerman.... yeah that's what happened alright.. I saw every bit of it... although I was in Virginia at the Time, I believe it was Zimmerman I had witnessed......
so......where's my 10k?
how is offering any amount of money, going to magically coerce a witness out of hiding to testify, a witness that has yet to surface at this point?..... its called perjury for money
montanadave
03-25-12, 09:06
A Grand Jury would be able to make that distinction, wouldn't it? Otherwise all anyone would have to do is say that they shot someone in self defense?
That seems reasonable but I have yet to read anywhere the specific process by which a shooting is ruled justifiable under the "Stand Your Ground" law.
In the Martin-Zimmerman case, that determination appears to have been made by the police officers at the scene during the initial investigation and a grand jury would never have seen the "case", as there was apparently no case to present.
It was not until all the media focus was brought to bear (with, unfortunately, the associated and predictable bias, sensationalism, premature judgments, etc.) that the decision was made to present the shooting to a grand jury.
In my mind, the law as it currently stands (or is being interpreted) leaves too much discretion to local law enforcement in making determinations about "justifiable" self-defense, particularly when there is a fatality.
montanadave
03-25-12, 09:17
how is offering any amount of money, going to magically coerce a witness out of hiding to testify, a witness that has yet to surface at this point?..... its called perjury for money
So when the police offer money for information about a crime through such programs as Crimestoppers, this is soliciting perjury?
I get it. You don't like the group offering the money, you don't like their political/social agenda and efforts to exploit this case to further those aims, and you've already made up your mind that Zimmerman is being unfairly persecuted for defending himself. Fine.
But there is nothing particularly unusual about offering a financial incentive to encourage witnesses to come forward nor is there anything inherently corrupt to the practice. Any testimony and/or evidence solicited by such practices will be subjected to the same level of scrutiny (or likely a higher level of scrutiny) as all the rest and a determination as to its validity made by the court.
We already know the prescribed MSM narrative. Now we're just waiting to see what REALLY happened.
Here are the facts:
Trevon was taking a shortcut through Zimmerman's hood.
Zimmerman follows Trevon because 'he looks like a suspect.'
Zimmerman calls 911.
Zimmerman verbally confronts Trevon from the safety of his 'patrol car.' As if Zimmerman has the legal authority challenge the freedom of movement of another citizen.
Trevon disengages from the verbal confrontation by cutting cross country.
Zimmerman LEAVES the safety of his 'patrol car' and pursues Trevon on foot! WTF?! Where does he get off thinking he can stop and detain another citizen? He has NO special police powers and even if he did his PC is pretty shaky.
Zimmerman then engages Trevon in a physical confrontation.
As Zimmerman starts to get his ass handed to him, at some point he makes the decision to draw and fire.
Even under Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' statue, you are not permitted to chase a man down, instigate a fight, and shoot him if he gives you one. If that is the case, then FL has just legalized Murder in the 1st Degree.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-25-12, 10:17
Oddly, how is Zimmerman's interaction with the kid different than the nBPP's citizen's arrest of Z- man?
This is a gated community, correct? This is not like a public street.
Obama's relationship with local police in race matters isn't great. Z- man will end up having a beer on the front lawn with the nBPP part guys if isn't lucky.
NCPatrolAR
03-25-12, 10:24
FRom everything I've read, Martin was headed back to his dad's girlfriend's residence which is located in the neighborhood where this occurred.
DocHolliday01
03-25-12, 10:28
Here are the facts:
Trevon was taking a shortcut through Zimmerman's hood.
Zimmerman follows Trevon because 'he looks like a suspect.'
Zimmerman calls 911.
Zimmerman verbally confronts Trevon from the safety of his 'patrol car.' As if Zimmerman has the legal authority challenge the freedom of movement of another citizen.
Trevon disengages from the verbal confrontation by cutting cross country.
Zimmerman LEAVES the safety of his 'patrol car' and pursues Trevon on foot! WTF?! Where does he get off thinking he can stop and detain another citizen? He has NO special police powers and even if he did his PC is pretty shaky.
Zimmerman then engages Trevon in a physical confrontation.
As Zimmerman starts to get his ass handed to him, at some point he makes the decision to draw and fire.
Even under Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' statue, you are not permitted to chase a man down, instigate a fight, and shoot him if he gives you one. If that is the case, then FL has just legalized Murder in the 1st Degree.
You don't have to have PC to stop someone. Reasonable, articulatable (sp?) suspicion is what an LEO needs to stop someone and ask questions. PC for an arrest.
You don't have to have PC to stop someone. Reasonable, articulatable (sp?) suspicion is what an LEO needs to stop someone and ask questions. PC for an arrest.
You are correct, I misspoke.
In any event, what was Zimmerman's "specific and articulable facts" that gave him Reasonable Suspicion to make a Terry stop? In as far as know, the SCOTUS has only granted that power to sworn LEOs and Zimmerman ain't that.
Things on my mind....
Everyone is overlooking the witness statement from the girlfriend that details the initial confrontation when they assume Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind.....which goes against Zimmerman statement
The eye witness says Martin was on top of Zimmerman.....then after the shot was heard he looked out and saw Martin on ground with Zimmerman standing over him......so did he shoot Martin while he was on top of him or did they end up getting off the ground? If he shot him while on top of him why are there no notes of Martins blood being on Zimmerman? If he shot him while standing I have to question the witness initial statement and have to ask was his life really in danger?
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Heavy Metal
03-25-12, 11:03
So when the police offer money for information about a crime through such programs as Crimestoppers, this is soliciting perjury?
I get it. You don't like the group offering the money, you don't like their political/social agenda and efforts to exploit this case to further those aims, and you've already made up your mind that Zimmerman is being unfairly persecuted for defending himself. Fine.
But there is nothing particularly unusual about offering a financial incentive to encourage witnesses to come forward nor is there anything inherently corrupt to the practice. Any testimony and/or evidence solicited by such practices will be subjected to the same level of scrutiny (or likely a higher level of scrutiny) as all the rest and a determination as to its validity made by the court.
You apparently have a reading comprehension problem MontanaDave. Click the link in question. They are not looking for information, they are offering a reward to apprehend a person with no outstanding warrant. That is both consipiracy to and incitement to commit Kidnapping, a forcable felony. This is not freedom of speech and association, it is a criminal conspiracy and anyone who is a participant should be arrested for it NOW! It is a bllatant atempt at Vigilante justice and nothing more, a lynch mob mentality.
It would be no different from me offering a reward for your apprehension.
What are they gonna do? Kidnap Zimmerman and take him to the Police? The Police have NO authority to detain him and likely know exactly where he is now anyways.
Heavy Metal
03-25-12, 11:12
Things on my mind....
Everyone is overlooking the witness statement from the girlfriend that details the initial confrontation when they assume Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind.....which goes against Zimmerman statement
The eye witness says Martin was on top of Zimmerman.....then after the shot was heard he looked out and saw Martin on ground with Zimmerman standing over him......so did he shoot Martin while he was on top of him or did they end up getting off the ground? If he shot him while on top of him why are there no notes of Martins blood being on Zimmerman? If he shot him while standing I have to question the witness initial statement and have to ask was his life really in danger?
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
The Coroner's report should document the entry angle of the shot, side of entry and give some indication of the distance from the shooter(powder burns, etc)
Here are the facts:
Trevon was taking a shortcut through Zimmerman's hood. Agreed
Zimmerman follows Trevon because 'he looks like a suspect.' Agreed
Zimmerman calls 911. Agreed
Zimmerman verbally confronts Trevon from the safety of his 'patrol car.' As if Zimmerman has the legal authority challenge the freedom of movement of another citizen. I'm not sure this has been established as fact. Zimmerman seems to be only talking to the 911 dispatcher on the tapes. In addition, the GF never reports hearing Trayvon being verbally confronted.
Trevon disengages from the verbal confrontation by cutting cross country. I agree that the facts suggests that Trayvon began running, but there is no real evidence of any verbal confrontation while Zimmerman was in his car.
Zimmerman LEAVES the safety of his 'patrol car' and pursues Trevon on foot! WTF?! Where does he get off thinking he can stop and detain another citizen? He has NO special police powers and even if he did his PC is pretty shaky. Agreed. This was stupid.
Zimmerman then engages Trevon in a physical confrontation. This is not an established fact and propbably the biggest detail that needs to be determined by the police.
As Zimmerman starts to get his ass handed to him, at some point he makes the decision to draw and fire. Agreed.
Even under Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' statue, you are not permitted to chase a man down, instigate a fight, and shoot him if he gives you one. If that is the case, then FL has just legalized Murder in the 1st Degree.
I'm not sure that you have the facts straight.
Are you suggesting that Zimmerman did not ever attempt to issue Trevon a verbal command/challenge? Not even a "Stop!" "Who are you?" "What are you doing in this neighborhood?"
That would make it even worse because it would mean a man with a gun (Zimmerman) simply ran down and shot an unarmed man (Trevon) without ever saying two words to him. Clearly 2nd Degree Murder at best.
Zimmerman states there was a physical confrontation. He was found with grass stains on his knees and bloody nose. He chased Trevon on foot meaning he initiated the confrontation. If there was no physical confrontation then it means Zimmerman lied about it and is obstructing justice by falsifying evidence/altering the crime scene.
I wait with baited breath for the ME report subsequent questioning.
Zimmerman will be eaten alive in court even if it is just a civil tort for wrongful death. Think about it: Trevon is out to get his little brother some candy. The boys are watching the game with their dad. Zimmerman follows Trevon several blocks (hunting him?). The 911 tapes are very damning and give evidence to his state of mind. Then an armed man, who has been following him for several blocks in his car, chases Trevon on foot into the night. If it is true that Zimmerman offered no verbal challenge to him, then it is reasonable to assume that Trevon ran out of fear not knowing Zimmerman's intentions. Like it or not, this is how it is going to be played out in court.
Lots of conclusions being drawn ( I was guilty of it initially as well) but I have a feeling things are going to change.
Someone in Florida who knows what they are doing correct me if I am wrong. If you are found not guilty or you aren't charged then you cannot be brought into civil court for damages.
You can't be real, right? This is a silly joke of some kind. Your analogy is so stupid that I can only assume you made it to test out your new flame suit.
So when the police offer money for information about a crime through such programs as Crimestoppers, this is soliciting perjury?
I get it. You don't like the group offering the money, you don't like their political/social agenda and efforts to exploit this case to further those aims, and you've already made up your mind that Zimmerman is being unfairly persecuted for defending himself. Fine.
But there is nothing particularly unusual about offering a financial incentive to encourage witnesses to come forward nor is there anything inherently corrupt to the practice. Any testimony and/or evidence solicited by such practices will be subjected to the same level of scrutiny (or likely a higher level of scrutiny) as all the rest and a determination as to its validity made by the court.
Are you suggesting that Zimmerman did not ever attempt to issue Trevon a verbal command/challenge? Not even a "Stop!" "Who are you?" "What are you doing in this neighborhood?"
That would make it even worse because it would mean a man with a gun (Zimmerman) simply ran down and shot an unarmed man (Trevon) without ever saying two words to him. Clearly 2nd Degree Murder at best.
Zimmerman states there was a physical confrontation. He was found with grass stains on his knees and bloody nose. He chased Trevon on foot meaning he initiated the confrontation. If there was no physical confrontation then it means Zimmerman lied about it and is obstructing justice by falsifying evidence/altering the crime scene.
I wait with baited breath for the ME report subsequent questioning.
Zimmerman will be eaten alive in court even if it is just a civil tort for wrongful death. Think about it: Trevon is out to get his little brother some candy. The boys are watching the game with their dad. Zimmerman follows Trevon several blocks (hunting him?). The 911 tapes are very damning and give evidence to his state of mind. Then an armed man, who has been following him for several blocks in his car, chases Trevon on foot into the night. If it is true that Zimmerman offered no verbal challenge to him, then it is reasonable to assume that Trevon ran out of fear not knowing Zimmerman's intentions. Like it or not, this is how it is going to be played out in court.
I'm suggesting that several of your statements of fact are really just speculation. There is no evidence of a veral confrontation from the car like you describe. In addition, your description of Zimmerman chasing down Martin is not established as fact since Zimmerman claims that he was attacked while returning to his car. Finally, your description of Zimmerman is wrong in that he had grass on his back (not just his knees), a bloody nose, and a wound to the back of his head.
In other words, you seem to be distorting the available few facts to support one potential version of the confrontation. I'll wait to hear the GJ summary and see the actual witness statements before I go along with your version of the events.
In addition, your description of Zimmerman chasing down Martin is not established as fact since Zimmerman claims that he was attacked while returning to his car.
Actually it is established that he was chasing him.
When the dispatcher asks "are you following him" it is understood that because of car door sounds heard and heaving breathing that he is indeed on foot at this time. He replies to are your following with ... yes.
He also indicates that when police arrive they will find his truck near the mailboxes, but --not-- that he is in it.
look up 1111 Retreat View circle FL on Bing Maps. the death took place on Twin Trees.
It sort of makes sense that if the kid was running he only had about one block to run to be out of the complex. No way Z could outrun him or even catch up. So he almost had to find himself in Z's proximity again by his own accord. Now who attacked who and how, I don't know, but the kid did tell his girlfriend he wasn't going to run right before it all happened.....
Neither of them were doing anything wrong until they met. They met outside the automobile.
Z doesn't sound like a genius to me. He told the LEOs he had lost the kid. So was he lying, did he see the kid, did he find the kid? or did the kid find him? It does sort of seem like the kid found him otherwise he is a really slow runner -and- Mr. Z is a really good liar.
Two dumb asses and 1 loaded gun
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/what_if_trayvon_had_been_white_and_the_shooter_black.html
Does anyone know at what point Zimmerman drew his gun?
Actually it is established that he was chasing him.
When the dispatcher asks "are you following him" it is understood that because of car door sounds heard and heaving breathing that he is indeed on foot at this time. He replies to are your following with ... yes.
He also indicates that when police arrive they will find his truck near the mailboxes, but --not-- that he is in it.
look up 1111 Retreat View circle FL on Bing Maps. the death took place on Twin Trees.
It sort of makes sense that if the kid was running he only had about one block to run to be out of the complex. No way Z could outrun him or even catch up. So he almost had to find himself in Z's proximity again by his own accord. Now who attacked who and how, I don't know, but the kid did tell his girlfriend he wasn't going to run right before it all happened.....
Neither of them were doing anything wrong until they met. They met outside the automobile.
Z doesn't sound like a genius to me. He told the LEOs he had lost the kid. So was he lying, did he see the kid, did he find the kid? or did the kid find him? It does sort of seem like the kid found him otherwise he is a really slow runner -and- Mr. Z is a really good liar.
Two dumb asses and 1 loaded gun
This. Martin had no legal duty to retreat from Zimmerman, and Zimmerman had no legal authority to detain or harass Martin. And it'll all come down to what happened when the two met on foot, which we may never know in full, because one of the combatants is dead and the other knows he's in a world of legal shit now, so he has every incentive to spin things to make himself look like the victim.
Florida's law isn't the problem. An idiot getting way out of his lane and causing a bad situation is the problem.
ForTehNguyen
03-25-12, 17:44
there is a gap of few minutes between the end of the phone call and when Martin was shot. The big issue is what exactly happened in that few minutes.
Oh the hypocrisy with a similar case in Greece, NY in 2009. Roderick Scott (black) shot and killed Chris Cevini (white) while he was suspected of riffling through a neighbors car off his own property. Police charged him with murder, people said race was a factor in the charge. Grand jury reduced to manslaughter. Scott was acquitted by a majority white jury.
http://www.theusreport.com/the-us-report/2012/3/25/trayvon-martin-sparks-debate-on-stand-your-ground-and-misste.html
Trayvon Martin sparks debate on Stand Your Ground and misstep by president
Sunday, March 25, 2012 at 12:44PM
Screen snip of obituary for a white teen killed by a black adult in circumstances not identical but similar to those in the death of Trayvon Martin. (Screen snip)
With the tragic death of Trayvon Martin, pundits and Main Street have begun to talk about laws commonly referred to as ‘Stand Your Ground.’ Although this self-defense law has been depicted as exclusive to the Deep South, that’s not the case. At least 23 other states have such laws according to the left of center publication The Atlantic. Other states provide for self-defense in various degrees by statutes, if a person perceives imminent danger at the hand of another.
Even in New York, a jury in a Rochester suburb accepted a version of Stand Your Ground as a defense for a black man who shot an unarmed white teenager in 2009. Roderick Scott believed Christopher Cervini was burglarizing a neighbor’s car. Scott killed Cervini with a .40 cal. handgun. Scott was ultimately cleared on manslaughter charges, after a trial.
Michael Filozof at The American Thinker explained the details of the tragic death of Cervini, noting similarities to the progression of events that led to Martin’s death in Florida. The major difference in Cervini’s case is that the shooter was charged immediately. Zimmerman was transported to the Sanford Police Dept. and questioned after a number of witnesses were questioned and he has not faced charges.
Filozof also notes the obvious—no intervention from the U.S. Dept. of Justice and no protests like those organized after Martin’s death. Ironically some of the protests after Martin died were organized by hate groups like the Nation of Islam and the New Black Panther Party. NBPP actually published and distributed a ‘Wanted Dead or Alive’ flier for the Florida shooter, George Zimmerman.
At the rally where the flier was distributed, there was a DOJ ‘Conciliation Specialist’ present as an observer. DOJ didn’t whisper a word about the flier, a de facto tool aimed at inciting vigilante action with the potential of civil unrest.
For context, it’s useful to know the NOI and NBPP are designated as hate groups by left of center organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Legal self-defense is a no-brainer, but media have largely over-simplified Stand Your Ground, depicting the law as carte blanche for killing. That’s simply not the case.
Florida state Sen. David Simmons told The US Report:
"As Chairman of the Judiciary Committee in the Florida House of Representatives in 2005, I drafted Florida's "stand your ground" law, which was sponsored by my good friend, Rep. Dennis Baxley. It is landmark legislation that has been adopted by 19 other states, because it makes good, common sense. It simply states that if you or your family members are attacked with deadly force, you may stand your ground, rather than be required by law to run. Can you imagine having to run while your wife or children are being attacked with deadly force? If Mr. Zimmerman was not himself being attacked by use of deadly force, then Florida's "stand your ground" law has no application to his use of deadly force."
Florida statutes on Crimes and Justifiable Use of Force support Simmons’ statement. The Florida Legislature posts statutes online. Justifiable Use of Force (Title XLVI, CRIMES, Ch. 776; 776.041) carries specific provisions:
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.
Another factor in Martin’s death was Zimmerman’s role as what media have described as ‘neighborhood watch captain.’ However, the official Neighborhood Watch program administered by the National Sheriff’s Association specifically prohibits the actions Zimmerman took after reporting Martin as a “suspicious person” in the gated community in Sanford, Fla.
NSA issued a release, saying Zimmerman’s alleged action “significantly contradicts the principles” of the NWP. The key word is “watch.” The NWP aims at residents as “eyes and ears” in the community, reporting suspicious behavior or actual crimes to law enforcement vested with the power to act. A citizen patrolling the streets with a loaded weapon and following a person he believes suspicious defies the central concept of NWP.
Zimmerman had made numerous calls to police to report incidents or suspicious activity in his neighborhood. The event reports show he called about white males and hispanic males too. Zimmerman’s father had a letter published in The Orlando Sentinel, declaring Zimmerman was hispanic and from a multi-racial background, both facts most big media have deliberately skewed or omitted.
Florida Gov. Rick Scott ordered the Florida Dept. of Law Enforcement to investigate the Martin killing, and he appointed a special task force to review the state’s Stand Your Ground Law. Scott also appointed a special prosecutor, state attorney Angela Corey of Jacksonville.
On Friday, President Barack Obama expressed sympathy for the Martin family, a gesture most Americans agreed with.
However, Obama then politicized his statement by suggesting if he had a son, the son would look like Trayvon. Our president’s facial features and complexion bear no similarities to those of Trayvon.
Imagine for a moment if a leading conservative politician like Gov. Sarah Palin had made such a statement about Christopher Cervini. The media would’ve suffered a collective hemorrhage.
Hate groups like the NOI and the Nation of Islam capitalize on tragedies like the death of Trayvon Martin as a means of promoting a racist agenda.
What most have overlooked in the death of Martin is that when news of the circumstances of his death gained the ear of the public, the community at large called for an investigation and those calls came from all races and political sectors. There are many lessons to be learned from the death of Trayvon Martin and Christopher Cervini, but thus far, the bully pulpit has been usurped by hate groups and opportunists.
Florida Gov. Scott issued a full statement explaining the steps he took to address the Martin case:
“As law enforcement investigates the death of Trayvon Martin, Floridians and others around the country have rightly recognized this as a terrible tragedy. Like all Floridians, I believe we must take steps to ensure tragedies like this are avoided. After listening to many concerned citizens in recent days, I will call for a Task Force on Citizen Safety and Protection to investigate how to make sure a tragedy such as this does not occur in the future, while at the same time, protecting the fundamental rights of all of our citizens – especially the right to feel protected and safe in our state."
(Analysis by Kay B. Day/March 25, 2012)
*Many thanks to Kim Carroll for helping The US Report to gather information about Stand Your Ground.
ForTehNguyen
03-25-12, 18:25
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/what_if_trayvon_had_been_white_and_the_shooter_black.html
this is a really hard hitting article that everyone needs to read showing the massive hypocrisy with the media and public reaction in this case.
March 24, 2012
What if Trayvon Had Been White, and the Shooter Black?
By Michael Filozof
What would happen if a black man armed with a handgun confronted "suspicious persons" in his neighborhood? What would happen if the "suspicious persons" were unarmed white teens, one of them was shot dead, and the shooter claimed self-defense?
This is not an exercise in mere speculation. We know what would happen in such a case. There would be no white mobs in the street chanting "No justice, no peace!" There would be no whites holding a "million hoodie march" in New York City. There would be no white equivalent of Al Sharpton, the professional race-baiter behind the 1987 Tawana Brawley hoax, leading marches in the streets of the shooter's hometown. There would be no Federal civil rights investigation by the Justice Department. There would be no comments from a president who seems congenitally unable to keep his mouth shut on matters involving left-wing political correctness. And there would be no national media attention from biased, left-wing "reporters."
We know this because in fact, such an event occurred in 2009 in Greece, N.Y., a suburb of Rochester. Roderick Scott, a black man, shot and killed an unarmed white teen, Christopher Cervini, whom he believed was burglarizing a neighbor's car, with a licensed .40 cal. handgun.
There are many similarities between the Scott-Cervini case and the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin case in Florida. In both cases, there had been a spate of criminal activity in the neighborhood. In both cases, the shooters called 911 to report suspicious activity, yet chose to confront the unarmed suspects outside their residence and off their own property prior to the arrival of the police. In both cases, the shooters claimed that they felt threatened, and fired in self-defense. In both cases, local law enforcement applied relevant state law.
Unlike Florida, New York does not have a "stand your ground" law. New York law allows a person to use deadly force to defend his residence from home invasion only as a last resort. It does not allow the use of deadly force to prevent a property crime, and requires retreat if possible. Thus, while Zimmerman was not arrested under Florida law, Scott was tried for manslaughter.
New York law does allow a person to use deadly force anywhere, including off his own property, if he feels that his life is in imminent danger and retreat is not possible. Despite the fact that he left his own property, confronted, and shot dead an unarmed white person thought to be committing a petty property crime, Scott was acquitted by a majority-white jury after claiming that the Cervini charged at him, putting him in imminent fear of his life.
Despite the racial difference between the shooter and the decedent, there were no allegations of racial bias. Scott was not charged with a hate crime. There was no Federal civil rights investigation. There were no white protests. The case was settled for what it was: a tragedy caused by a series of poor decisions on behalf of the shooter, and a split-second decision that will forever be second-guessed.
In all probability, the actions of Zimmerman in Florida were also based on a series of poor decisions: the decision to follow a suspect after a police dispatcher told him not to, the decision to confront a suspect with a firearm off his own property, and a split-second decision to shoot an unarmed person when Zimmerman felt his life was in imminent danger, resulting in tragedy. But a tragedy is not necessarily a Federal civil rights case - unless the mobs in the streets and their allies in the media and government want to make it one.
The truth of the matter is that "civil rights" cases are often little more than reverse lynch mobs. In the Old South of the past, white mobs would drag black suspects out of jail and lynch them in the streets if they felt the wheels of justice were turning too slowly. Today, black mobs, often led by the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, lead street protests or riots, and the Federal government comes after white suspects with the "rope" of "civil rights" charges. And just like the old Southern sheriffs with ties to the Klan who turned a blind eye to the illegal actions of whites, the Department of Justice often refuses to act on "civil rights" violations when the perpetrators are black and the victims are white. In the eyes of the Federal government and the political Left, all whites are forever suspected of being gap-toothed Klansmen with shotguns and nooses in their pickup trucks, and all blacks are perpetually innocent, doe-eyed victims of white oppression.
This dynamic was made perfectly clear twenty years ago by the Los Angeles riots. Rodney King, a convicted felon, allegedly intoxicated, led police on a high-speed car chase and resisted arrest when he was finally cornered. Most people agree that the cops gave Rodney a few more licks than department procedures called for. But given King's background and the extenuating circumstances, the cops were acquitted of assault charges under state law. The black population of L.A. erupted in riots that killed 53 people, ignited thousands of arsons, and saw widespread looting. Korean merchants were racially targeted for arson, and resorted to defending their property with arms. Reginald Denny, a hapless white truck driver who inadvertently drove into the riots, was pulled from his vehicle by black rioters who smashed his skull in 91 places with a brick (inflicting far worse injuries than the cops had inflicted on King) and danced a jig over his prone body.
Long before Eric Holder became Attorney General, refused to prosecute black voter intimidation, and referred to blacks as "my people," the Department of Justice caved in to the pressure of the rioters by charging and convicting the L.A. cops with "civil rights" violations and sending them to Federal prison. But no such Federal charges were levied against the blacks who targeted the Koreans and attacked Reginald Denny.
Two years later, O.J. Simpson, a black defendant with a history of domestic violence, was accused of slashing the throats of two white people. But no "civil rights" or "hate crimes" charges were filed against him. No white protests erupted against Simpson or against the black community. Simpson, a black millionaire who had a career in sports, money, and fame that most white people can only dream about, was portrayed as a "victim" of the "racist" police. Blacks from coast to coast whooped and danced with joy when he was acquitted of double murder.
Certainly it's true that in the past, blacks have been victims of whites. But today the reality is quite different from what the street mobs, the government, the media and the P.C. crowd would have us believe. Far from being victims of white oppression, blacks today are disproportionately perpetrators of violent crimes against whites and against other blacks. According to data from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in 2009, "whites" -- a category that includes Hispanics -- were known to be responsible for 5,286 murders. Blacks, a mere 13% of the population, were known to be responsible for 5,980 murders. In 2005, the New Century Foundation's "Color of Crime" report found that "Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black" (emphasis mine). Also in 2005, the Department of Justice reported that one-third of rapes committed against white women (approximately 37,000) were perpetrated by blacks, while less than ten -- statistically zero -- rapes of black women were committed by whites.
Whatever happened in the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin case, one thing is perfectly clear: it's high time this country quit the racial dog-and-pony show, and judged each criminal case on its individual merits instead of allowing the race-baiting demagogues to leverage each incident for political advantage in the streets and in the media.
Does anyone know at what point Zimmerman drew his gun?
I wondered that as well. So many possible scenarios.
For the police to let him go, I would hope that he didn't pull it until after he was getting his ass kicked.
there is a gap of few minutes between the end of the phone call and when Martin was shot. The big issue is what exactly happened in that few minutes.
Oh the hypocrisy with a similar case in Greece, NY in 2009. Roderick Scott (black) shot and killed Chris Cevini (white) while he was suspected of riffling through a neighbors car off his own property. Police charged him with murder, people said race was a factor in the charge. Grand jury reduced to manslaughter. Scott was acquitted by a majority white jury.
http://www.theusreport.com/the-us-report/2012/3/25/trayvon-martin-sparks-debate-on-stand-your-ground-and-misste.html
There are a lot of parallels there. Zimmerman should have stayed in his car and Roderick Scott should have stayed in his house.
Roderick Scott called the police to report several people breaking into cars in his neighborhood and was told by the police dispatcher that a patrol car could not be there for 20-30 minutes. Mr. Scott armed himself with his licensed handgun and went out to confront what turned out to be males in their late teens. I don't remember if the 911 Operator warned him not to. I believe Scott displayed his handgun to them, but don't remember exactly. One of the trio rushed at Mr. Scott who responded by firing severl times, killing the person who rushed him. One of the shots hit the person who rushed him in the side as the person who rushed him.
Roderick Scott went on trial for manslaughter but was found not guilty. The bottom line is that Scott left the safety of his house to confront some people who were not a direct threat to his or anyone else's safety. This is not a wise move in any state, especially a state that is not gun friendly like NY. Had he stayed in the house, no shooting would have occurred.
Likewise, Zimmermen left the safety of his car against the instructions of the 911 operator. If you feel someone is suspicious enough to call 911 on them, it probably is not a good idea to leave the safety of your car, be it to search for them or confront them, unless it is to protect a third party, WHO IS KNOWN TO YOU, from their assault. In neither of these cases was anyone's life in direct risk.
Does anyone know at what point Zimmerman drew his gun?
Not exactly. However, one witness says that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman "beating him up" while Zimmerman yelled for help. That witness says that he told them he was calling police, shut his door, a then heard a gunshot. I've not seen any description of a time period between seeing the struggle and hearing the shot.
Actually it is established that he was chasing him.
When the dispatcher asks "are you following him" it is understood that because of car door sounds heard and heaving breathing that he is indeed on foot at this time. He replies to are your following with ... yes.
He also indicates that when police arrive they will find his truck near the mailboxes, but --not-- that he is in it.
Like others have mentioned, there is a period of several minutes between Zimmerman's 911 call and the actual shooting. This is evident by the sound of a single gunshot being captured on one of the witness' 911 calls. Nobody knows if Zimmerman continued his pursuit, or was headed back to his car during the period that began after he hung up with 911. This seems to be a major topic of the investigation and will probably not be determined until after the GJ summary is released (if ever).
FWIW, I'd be interested in seeing the proximity of Zimmerman's SUV and the location of the body. If there is a large distance, it might suggest that Zimmerman was indeed pursuing Martin and not returning to his vehicle.
crusader377
03-25-12, 21:55
In the end I think this is going to be a lose-lose situation when Zimmerman goes to trial. My reasoning is that I don't think Zimmerman will get a fair trial in which he deserves. I think due to public pressure, Zimmerman will probably end up being tried for murder even though I think the information that is available seems to point to some form of manslaughter at the most.
If Zimmerman gets a fair trial which he deserves and is proven innocent or gets a lighter sentence, I think there is a reasonable likelyhood of some sort of violence like the Rodney King riots which alot of innocent people were hurt and killed. My personal view is the Rodney King verdict was used as an excuse by thugs to steal and murder people but I think something similiar could happen with this one.
Based on the information available, I think Zimmerman may have been over zealous with his neighboorhood watch and probably does need to be punished unless new evidence becomes available because at the end of the day he shot an unarmed man and most likely initiated some sort of confrontation. That said, Martin may not have been the defenseless innocent that the media made him out to be. Martin certainly wasn't as physically outgunned as the media portrayed him and some witnesses have stated that Martin was on top of him beating Zimmerman.
Moose-Knuckle
03-25-12, 23:27
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/what_if_trayvon_had_been_white_and_the_shooter_black.html
This times a googolplexianth!
And to think the POTUS and AG don't believe We The People have the right to bear arms. . . :nono:
Based on the information available, I think Zimmerman may have been over zealous with his neighboorhood watch and probably does need to be punished unless new evidence becomes available because at the end of the day he shot an unarmed man and most likely initiated some sort of confrontation.
Aside from the fact Zimmerman is a nut........ why is it wrong to follow someone in a small gated community and ask them if they belong there?
However when asked by the kid, he didn't answer that question. Instead he asked a question in return. ... and yes I could a see a 17 year old who is already suspended from school getting pissed with someone following him and fly off the hook.
The reality is.... of what we know...... Zimmerman hasn't done anything a 75 year old lady in one of those communities wouldn't have done, or is probably doing right now somewhere in America.
If Zimmerman did initiate a fight and throw the first punch, I think he will crack under mental pressure and admit it.
Likewise, Zimmermen left the safety of his car against the instructions of the 911 operator.
He was already out of his truck when told to not follow. But even if head back to truck at that instant, he could have still run into the kid who took a different path. So they could have met as Z was trying to return. It's not an exclusive scenario that either Z was headed to truck or headed to find the kid. Both could have happened at same time.
Z ends up behind buildings from far end when told to stop chasing. Kid enters behind buildings from front section trying to make it to rear entrance. They meet in middle with Z headed towards his truck.
He was already out of his truck when told to not follow. But even if head back to truck at that instant, he could have still run into the kid who took a different path. So they could have met as Z was trying to return. It's not an exclusive scenario that either Z was headed to truck or headed to find the kid. Both could have happened at same time.
Z ends up behind buildings from far end when told to stop chasing. Kid enters behind buildings from front section trying to make it to rear entrance. They meet in middle with Z headed towards his truck.
Zimmerman should never have left his car, period. It was bad judgement on his part.
In looking over a variety of questionable civilian shootings and shootings that led to trouble for the shooter, a common element I've noticed is that the shooter left the safety of his house or car to confront someone who was not a direct threat to the shooter or to anyone else at the time. Included in this is pulling over in your car to have a 'discussion ' with someone who you had a vehicular misunderstanding with (read road rage).
Initiating unnecessary contact, especially when it is with someone who you are scared of/suspicious of/angry with/etc. is seen as the precipitating factor in the confrontation, without which it would not have occurred.
Here is the initial police report:
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf
Moose-Knuckle
03-26-12, 01:18
Zimmerman should never have left his car, period. It was bad judgement on his part.
In looking over a variety of questionable civilian shootings and shootings that led to trouble for the shooter, a common element I've noticed is that the shooter left the safety of his house or car to confront someone who was not a direct threat to the shooter or to anyone else at the time. Included in this is pulling over in your car to have a 'discussion ' with someone who you had a vehicular misunderstanding with (read road rage).
Initiating unnecessary contact, especially when it is with someone who you are scared of/suspicious of/angry with/etc. is seen as the precipitating factor in the confrontation, without which it would not have occurred.
Here is the flaw I see with this type of logic. . .
While I understand the point you are trying to make Zimmerman has as much right to get out of his vehicle and walk down that street as Martin did without being assaulted no matter what the time of day is.
All states are different but here in TX if I hear a noise outside my house and think wow someone might be breaking into my truck I have the right to protect my property and where I grew up the county deputies were at least an hour away after a call to the sheriff's office was placed.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf
http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer
Food for thought...
Moose-Knuckle
03-26-12, 02:59
http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer
Food for thought...
Hmmm, gang affiliations, drug use, violence towards school bus driver this little "baby boy" sure is looking more and more like a pillar of the community.
The media hit squad is doing an A- job on this one. They refuse to report on the fact that Zimmerman is Latino, they ONLY display Zimmerman's mug shot photo, yet they do not show photos of Martin in his "urban" attire choosing instead to show a picutre of him that is several years older showing him younger before his grills and tats. :rolleyes:
What bunch of horse shit, I fail to see how anyone these days can take anything the media "reports" as anything more.
ForTehNguyen
03-26-12, 06:45
lets get something straight here. Ignoring a 911 operator isnt against the law, they are not lawful orders, 911 operators aren't cops, they are there to gather information to dispatch police. I dont see how anyone can enter ignoring a 911 operator as primary evidence.
The_War_Wagon
03-26-12, 07:23
Hmmm, gang affiliations, drug use, violence towards school bus driver this little "baby boy" sure is looking more and more like a pillar of the community.
The media hit squad is doing an A- job on this one. They refuse to report on the fact that Zimmerman is Latino, they ONLY display Zimmerman's mug shot photo, yet they do not show photos of Martin in his "urban" attire choosing instead to show a picutre of him that is several years older showing him younger before his grills and tats. :rolleyes:
What bunch of horse shit, I fail to see how anyone these days can take anything the media "reports" as anything more.
Don'tcha just LUVVVVVVVVVVVVVV how Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton come swooping in, to set the local law enforcement and judiciary "STRAIGHT" on these matters? :rolleyes:
As for the new Black Pampers...
http://imaksim.com/images/stories/gallery/new_black_pampers.jpg
davidjinks
03-26-12, 08:07
I didn't see this link posted...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117695/Brutal-home-invasion-Oklahoma-couple-ends-65-year-romance-meeting-blind-date.html
Personally, I think this whole thing (Current event Zimmerman/Martin) has totally gone awry. I think too many people are being blinded by "color" and "sensationalism" as opposed to getting the facts. Media is absolutely no help with this whole thing. For every one media outlet putting out "good" information, there are ninety putting out bullshit. Of course those figures aren't accurate but very close to the state of affairs.
lets get something straight here. Ignoring a 911 operator isnt against the law, they are not lawful orders, 911 operators aren't cops, they are there to gather information to dispatch police. I dont see how anyone can enter ignoring a 911 operator as primary evidence.
Agreed but like Ed L. it was poor judgement based on observations he relayed to dispatcher.
"Hey, there's a crazy looking guy with something in his waistband, I'm going to confront him" :confused: Sure he was within his rights.
Neither were doing anything wrong until they met and then one of them had to initiate something illegal.
lets get something straight here. Ignoring a 911 operator isnt against the law, they are not lawful orders, 911 operators aren't cops, they are there to gather information to dispatch police. I dont see how anyone can enter ignoring a 911 operator as primary evidence.
If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be
considered in this investigation?
Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you
following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do
that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be
required to follow. Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and
was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by
Trayvon.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf
There was no "order" from the dispatcher as far as I can tell from the FAQ that was released. It later states that Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon and was headed back to his car. I won't speculate on either parties motives.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-26-12, 09:55
Here is the initial police report:
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf
Where are the witness statements and the interview with the interogator?
Backs up the unnammed witnesses report that Treyvon was on top beating Z and Z was calling for help.
People will just say that Z fell backwards and hit his head and got the grass stains that way.
Where are the witness statements and the interview with the interogator?
Backs up the unnammed witnesses report that Treyvon was on top beating Z and Z was calling for help.
People will just say that Z fell backwards and hit his head and got the grass stains that way.
Two of the "witnesses" were on Anderson Cooper this week describing what they saw. If this "thing" does go to trial, a change of venue, tainted jury pool, and damn near every other technicality will help acquit Z. What I find ironic is the same professional protestors who claim that guilty until proven innocent is unjust and racist, they are doing the same. Z is innocent until proven guilty, just not smart enough to keep himself out of a court room.
NCPatrolAR
03-26-12, 10:25
Where are the witness statements and the interview with the interogator?
That's only partial report.
I noticed that copy was printed on 6 March. Wonder why it took so long to make its way online
NCPatrolAR
03-26-12, 10:27
There was no "order" from the dispatcher as far as I can tell from the FAQ that was released.
The request was on the 911 tape
Heavy Metal
03-26-12, 10:46
That's only partial report.
I noticed that copy was printed on 6 March. Wonder why it took so long to make its way online
Proabally because until 5 days ago, nobody had even hear of this case.
The request was on the 911 tape
The point I was trying to make was that it wasn't an order given my a peace officer, but a suggestion by a 911 dispatcher as to weather it was necessary to follow the man. If the actual 911 tapes are different from what I have read about the case, then I will retract or redact my statement about there being an order to not pursue.
The life of it's own that this story has taken is disgraceful. To think that thousands will march while wearing hoodies in the name of this boy, who may well be just as culpable for his death as Zimmerman, this while blaming whitey, is as predictable as it is nauseating.
We see silence, complacency and even excuse making as blacks commit 80% of the shootings in NYC, yet this unfortunate incident binds everyone together simply because it feeds into a possible but highly unproven stereotype that the liberal media believe validates them. I hope the tide turns quickly and powerfully on this one, and soon.
Heavy Metal
03-26-12, 12:54
New info from the Police:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager
Some media sources are starting to catch on...
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager
Though I am sure all the hate mongers will discount these statements and claim Zimmerman and the witnesses are all lying.
I wonder how many of these peaceful protesters will reenact LA 1992 after all the facts are presented in court?
Trayvon "SLIMM" was suspended from school for Marijuana possession
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html
New info from the Police:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager
Okay....now this is the best recap I have seen to date since it addresses one of the key questions I had which was why Zimmerman had not mentioned any verbal interaction between him and Martin.
This also makes sense of the statement made by Martins girlfriend about Martin asking Zimmerman "why he was following him" and Zimmerman responding by asking "what was he doing there" followed by those mystery minutes before the police arrive.
The story as written in the article makes a lot more sense to me than the way things had been presented up to this point. As written it looks pretty open and shut in regards to why Zimmerman wasn't charged if we take it all for truth. Too bad this level of detail wasn't released in the very beginning as it may have prevented the circus taking place right now.
Now I still take issue with Zimmerman following the kid and placing himself in the situation, however the fact is according to Fl law that alone doesn't convict him.
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And now this...
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123
Heavy Metal
03-26-12, 13:52
Okay....now this is the best recap I have seen to date since it addresses one of the key questions I had which was why Zimmerman had not mentioned any verbal interaction between him and Martin.
This also makes sense of the statement made by Martins girlfriend about Martin asking Zimmerman "why he was following him" and Zimmerman responding by asking "what was he doing there" followed by those mystery minutes before the police arrive.
The story as written in the article makes a lot more sense to me than the way things had been presented up to this point. As written it looks pretty open and shut in regards to why Zimmerman wasn't charged if we take it all for truth. Too bad this level of detail wasn't released in the very beginning as it may have prevented the circus taking place right now.
Now I still take issue with Zimmerman following the kid and placing himself in the situation, however the fact is according to Fl law that alone doesn't convict him.
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I agree that Zimmerman likely wasn't proficient in Verbal Judo(c) and proabally did not approach Trevon in a manner that tended to diffuse the situation. A cascade of errors on both parties that resulted in an unfortunate death.
As I said earlier, if you are going to CCW in a populous area, a less than lethal alternative like OC spray is a good option. At a minimun, attempting to employ a LTL option shows you made a reasonable effort to avoid using lethal force if the situation continues to degrade.
I can't wait for this upcoming dog and pony show. The AG is going to review the "Stand your ground law". Good luck. It's a states' rights issue and the Feds have jack shit to say. There are many states (I believe AZ is one) that have such a law and the Feds can suck an egg if they think they can change it.
I have a suspicion that he will not be charged by the grand jury. In which case I hope that everyone has a stockpile of ammo handy.
I can't wait for this upcoming dog and pony show. The AG is going to review the "Stand your ground law". Good luck. It's a states' rights issue and the Feds have jack shit to say. There are many states (I believe AZ is one) that have such a law and the Feds can suck an egg if they think they can change it.
I have a suspicion that he will not be charged by the grand jury. In which case I hope that everyone has a stockpile of ammo handy.
Ya, someone needs to setup a defense fund for him. Mainly to buy a house 1000 miles away.
In addition to the head slamming, Zimmerman had stated Martin had attempted to take his gun.
http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html
But with the Department of Justice and the FBI investigating this case as a possible hate crime, Corey might want to pursue that as well.
"So it would depend on which charge if any we're able to file," she said. "Before we would be able to determine, one, if this is a hate crime, and two, whether or not that would enhance the crime."
Corey's team is now reinvestigating a case that the Sanford Police Department is accused of bungling. Possible police missteps include failing to administer a toxicology exam on Zimmerman, not impounding his car, and failing to contact key witnesses -- like Martin's girlfriend, who was talking to the teen by cell phone and heard most of the scuffle with Zimmerman unfold.
ABC News has learned there is tremendous pressure from local and state authorities for an arrest.
Corey said parts of the investigation might only take a few more days to complete but charges, if they ever come, could be weeks away.
In what pretend world would they have had ANY legal authority to impound his car? Oh you shot a guy during a fight in the grass? We're going to seize your car. :confused: We'll suspend the 4th Amendment, its more of a guideline than an actual rule anyway. WFT?
It boggles my mind...
Good information to have. Gotta say I really feel that much of this circus could have been avoided if they'd released all the details in the beginning....especially since the case appeared to be an open and shut case.
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Good information to have. Gotta say I really feel that much of this circus could have been avoided if they'd released all the details in the beginning....especially since the case appeared to be an open and shut case.
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I believe that the preliminary police report AND witness statements have been available since 3/6; the media simply ignored them.
Moose-Knuckle
03-26-12, 15:32
And now this...
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/Stay-Classy.gif
What grieving mother wouldn't want to cash in on her own child's death?
Oscar, thanks for the links man you keep hitting them out of the park! :cool:
I have a suspicion that he will not be charged by the grand jury. In which case I hope that everyone has a stockpile of ammo handy.
*********************NEWS FLASH***********************
Korean-Americans now outpace any other ethnic group for firearms purchases. Glock to replace The Gunny with Jet Li for its advertisements....
Littlelebowski
03-26-12, 17:19
The mother also is going to be testifying before Congress in favor of certifying neighborhood watch volunteers.
Maybe I missed it, but just why was Zimmerman following Martin on foot? What was his plan?
Zimmerman seems to have a history of violence given his Domestic Violence charges and Assault on an LEO in 2005. His history would also seem to indicate that he was a cop wannabe who never made the cut.
Under no circumstances did Zimmerman have the right to stop, question, or detain another citizen. Sorry but a 28yo fat man driving around following a 17yo sounds just a bit creepy on it's surface. Is someone defending this?
Bottom line, Zimmerman was spoiling for a confrontation and he got one. Even if he survives the FL Grand Jury he still may face the Civil Rights Division of the DOJ. If he survives this, then he still has the NAACP financed wrongful death civil suit that is sure to follow.
FromMyColdDeadHand
03-26-12, 18:33
Magpul needs to update their hoodie target....
http://cdn.magpul.com/images/uploads/111_578_popup.jpg
I heard that all these people work for Magpul.
Agreed Zimmerman may have been an idiot or done something stupid.
Does he have a right to have his ass kicked? If your head was being bashed into the pavement repeatedly, would you use your gun to defend yourself?
Did he lose the right to defend his life just because he may have followed or talked to someone who didn't like it?
dookie1481
03-26-12, 19:13
The mother also is going to be testifying before Congress in favor of certifying neighborhood watch volunteers.
Are you serious?
Agreed Zimmerman may have been an idiot or done something stupid.
Does he have a right to have his ass kicked? If your head was being bashed into the pavement repeatedly, would you use your gun to defend yourself?
Did he lose the right to defend his life just because he may have followed or talked to someone who didn't like it?
I think we just need more information until we can make judgments. My line of thought is (and was) that he was playing cop and and that created a bad situation. Whether he is charged with something serious or not may depend on if he instigated the conflict. As far as I understand most states' laws, if you start a fight, you can not claim self defense. I'm not a lawyer but that is my understanding.
For example, three MADE-UP scenarios:
(1) Z is driving home when he sees a suspicious hoodie. Calls 911 and advises. 911 dispatcher tells Z to remain in vehicle. Z remains in vehicle. Hoodie flanks Z's vehicle and pulls him out and starts beating him. Z uses deadly force to protect his life.
(2) Z is driving home when he sees a suspicious hoodie. Calls 911 and advises. 911 dispatcher tells Z to remain in vehicle. Z DOES NOT remain in vehicle. Follows hoodie on foot possibly making hoodie suspicious of Z's intent. Hoodie confronts Z because he believes he is being threatened. Hell breaks loose and Z uses deadly force in defense of his life.
(3) Z is driving home when he sees a suspicious hoodie. Calls 911 and advises. 911 dispatcher tells Z to remain in vehicle. Z DOES NOT remain in vehicle. Follows hoodie on foot possibly making hoodie suspicious of Z's intent. Catches up to hoodie and attempts to physically stop or detain hoodie. Fighting breaks out as hoodie thinks he is being attacked by a bad guy. Z uses deadly force in defense of his life.
From a novice point of view, I believe each of these would be treated somewhat differently under the law. These are made-up scenarios just to illustrate that even if Z shot in self defense, the events leading up to that matter. There seems to be a big gap in public knowledge about what happened between when Zimmerman left his vehicle and the fight broke out. Lot of gaps that need filling.
Maybe I missed it, but just why was Zimmerman following Martin on foot? What was his plan?
Maybe it was to watch over his neighborhood, you know...as a member of the neighborhood town watch. This in a neighborhood that has had break-in issues.
Drinking much of the MSM Kool-Aid today?
Maybe I missed it, but just why was Zimmerman following Martin on foot? What was his plan?
Heavy Metal's article in Post #225 seems to be the best account of the events if you need to get caught up. It appears from that article that Zimmerman spotted Martin on his way to the grocery store. I do not know if there is a way to prove what he was thinking, but the fact that he was on the phone with the police would indicate that he was trying to keep an eye on Martin until their arrival.
Zimmerman seems to have a history of violence given his Domestic Violence charges and Assault on an LEO in 2005. His history would also seem to indicate that he was a cop wannabe who never made the cut.
Martin's school suspension for marijuana and the excerpts from his Twitter/Facebook pages seem to indicate that he is a drug dealer and has gang contacts. Not that either man's history is pertinent to the facts of this case, but which one seems more prone to violence to you?
Under no circumstances did Zimmerman have the right to stop, question, or detain another citizen. Sorry but a 28yo fat man driving around following a 17yo sounds just a bit creepy on it's surface. Is someone defending this?
I don't think that anyone is stating the routine detention of another citizen is acceptable, nor have I seen any facts that prove Zimmerman intended to detain Martin. I might change my mind if he was walking around with handcuffs or if a witness saw Zimmerman holding him at gunpoint. FWIW, I think that questioning another citizen is appropriate under certain circumstances. I also think that Zimmerman was within his rights to follow Martin in his car or on foot, although I do not think the latter is a good idea. Moreover, I recognize there is a fine line between following and pusuit, and there is a good chance that Zimmerman may have crossed that line for a period of time - how long is a matter to be determined by the police. I also think there is a very reasonable chance that Zimmerman had abandoned his pursuit, and was returning to his car when was confronted / attacked by Martin. The police seem to agree with this scenario - at least for the time being.
Bottom line, Zimmerman was spoiling for a confrontation and he got one. Even if he survives the FL Grand Jury he still may face the Civil Rights Division of the DOJ. If he survives this, then he still has the NAACP financed wrongful death civil suit that is sure to follow.
Bottom line, no one knows what Zimmerman was thinking prior to following Martin. However, there seems to be a very good reason for him to be in fear for his life just before he pulled the trigger.
>>>>>
montanadave
03-26-12, 19:47
Maybe it was to watch over his neighborhood, you know...as a member of the neighborhood town watch. This in a neighborhood that has had break-in issues.
Drinking much of the MSM Kool-Aid today?
What is the basis for the media continuing to refer to Zimmerman as a "neighborhood watch captain"?
I have yet to read anywhere that there was any kind of organized or officially sanctioned neighborhood watch in the gated community where the Zimmerman/Martin event took place. In my home town, neighborhood watches were organized in conjunction with the local police department, there was signage provided by the city, neighborhood and block captains, regular meetings with newsletters, phone trees for notifying neighbors of significant events, etc.
ForTehNguyen
03-26-12, 20:00
anti gunners coming out of the woodwork:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1P5CxLYlfw&feature=g-u-u&context=G2a7f751FUAAAAAAAAAA
What is the basis for the media continuing to refer to Zimmerman as a "neighborhood watch captain"?
I have yet to read anywhere that there was any kind of organized or officially sanctioned neighborhood watch in the gated community where the Zimmerman/Martin event took place. In my home town, neighborhood watches were organized in conjunction with the local police department, there was signage provided by the city, neighborhood and block captains, regular meetings with newsletters, phone trees for notifying neighbors of significant events, etc.
Reference and acknowledge fact, stop with the leftist spin. Facts matter: http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1939/020/Was_Trayvon_Martin_a_Drug_Dealer.html
What is the basis for the media continuing to refer to Zimmerman as a "neighborhood watch captain"?
I have yet to read anywhere that there was any kind of organized or officially sanctioned neighborhood watch in the gated community where the Zimmerman/Martin event took place. In my home town, neighborhood watches were organized in conjunction with the local police department, there was signage provided by the city, neighborhood and block captains, regular meetings with newsletters, phone trees for notifying neighbors of significant events, etc.
My neighborhood works very similar to what you describe but it is far less organized. In fact, my wife was "volunteered" to be a block captain by our HOA. We have 5 streets and about 50 houses. She was assigned 2 streets and must keep those neighbors who do not have email updated via fliers of any security related info that comes from Charlotte-Meck PD. We have signs that say "patrolled by neighborhood watch," but there is no organized patrol (other than my occasional midnight walks with my cigar in hand, flashlight, CCW, german shepherd, and great dane). She was never given a manuel or handbook about what to do if someone suspects a crime.
As for Zimmerman's neighborhood, I assumed that there is an actual organized watch since people have pointed out that he broke their guidelines by carrying a gun and pursuing Martin (although it is unclear to what extent this happened). However, I could be wrong in that people were referring to the national organizations guidelines. Regardless, there have been several news stories indicate that he was the local "go-to" guy for security issues (watching house for vacationers, closing open garages, etc.) and that neighbors appreciated his efforts.
Keep in mind that neighborhood watch guidelines are not laws; I like to think of them as "friendly suggestions" that I'd likely ignore if I had the inclination to participate.
I'm starting to wonder just who's side some of you people are on... :confused:
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