View Full Version : Daniel Defense LE Duty Rifle Packages
I stopped by DD's website tonight to check out the latest and greatest.
I came across the LE Duty Packages. The Light Weight Package Overview states:
The Daniel Defense Light Weight Package, part of our comprehensive line of Professional Operator Solutions, is built to meet the continually evolving rigors and requirements of today’s Law Enforcement mission. This package includes the Daniel Defense M4 Carbine, v5 Lightweight with our Cold Hammer Forged lightweight profile barrel, an Omega X™ 12.0 (continuous flat top) free float rail system and mid-length gas system and is perfectly outfitted a red dot optic, flip-up sights, Magpul PMags and protective rifle bag. Like each of the Law Enforcement Kits, the Light Weight Package comes fully equipped with everything necessary to put the rifle into service, right out of the box!
Cool. Then I read the specs:
Red Dot Optic: Bushnell Elite Tactical TRS-25 Ruggedized Non-Parallax 3 MOA Red Dot Weapon Sight with Armageddon Gear TRS-25 mount
Umm...Not even a rugged DD Micro mount? Am I missing something here?
Am I the only one who is bugged by this? I know, just swap it out for a decent mount and a T1. But, these are being marketed as a Patrol Rifle all-in-one kit for LEO's. Patrol rifles get knocked around quite a bit. When that critical 30 yard head shot needs to be made, is this optic and mount to be trusted?
https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defense-le-duty-rifle-light-weight-package.html
Thoughts?
I got very excited about these when they first were "released" and instantly sold out. Still excited, but found my wits somewhere. Purchase will happen soon.
Regarding the choice of accessories, I still can't quite justify the non-DD mount. But, the idea is to put the best RIFLE in law enforcement's hands, make it reasonably affordable for the patrol officer, and make it street ready right out of the the box.
To keep it affordable, they have to sacrifice somewhere. Since they're not in the optics biz, that's a good place to settle for "good enough" with the red dot. If they were to add an Aimpoint, Eotech etc, you're adding roughly 50%+ to the price of the package and leaving behind that affordable part. If you leave off the optic for those of us who want better, then they aren't putting out a street ready package.
A lot of LE don't even have access to a long gun. So, this will get them started. More apt to hit the 30yd head shot with the Bushnell equipped Daniel Defense than their sidearm in 99.9% of cases. I don't know about the true reliability/durability of these sights. Are they better than shooting irons on my Vietnam era M-16 that I have been issued? That depends on me, the shooter. I then think this argues more for DD fixed iron sights to back up the Bushnell rather than Magpul flip ups.
I agree that it seems odd, but you need to look at their goal of the program: Put DD rifles on the streets ASAP.
Regarding the optic mount: is it possible that the DD doesn't mate with that optic?
A cost move for sure, but Bushnell has been building long before aimpoint.
They should give optic options in this package.
Either way their rifles are out of stock at most places.
Regarding the optic mount: is it possible that the DD doesn't mate with that optic?
That's exactly it- the Bushnell has an integral mount. The DD micro mount replaces the pic mount on the AP Micro, so it will not work with the Bushnell.
bsmith_shoot
03-14-12, 11:04
On the DMR package, the Bushnell might be decent. Ive never used their red dot, so I dont have an opinion. Might be worth trying out though.
Brandon
Beat Trash
03-14-12, 11:13
If I wanted to use a DD for a patrol rifle, I'd just get the rifle and then look around for the Aimpoint of my choice and call it a day.
I agree that the concept of a all in one package should look at something else. Especially considering many LEO's who might look at this package may not be an informed consumer. If I were creating this package, I'd go with an Aimpoint PRO and not look back. But that's me...
Single-sku solutions are popular with individual buyers and in procurement circles. Most consumers will accept lesser contents in favor of a more complete package that takes up only one line-item on an invoice. Unfortunately, many vendors will start at a price point and choose components within, rather than build a GTG kit and price accordingly.
The base rifle is GTG. The Bushnell RDS is sport/hobby grade and will provide that level of performance. UM bags and cases are unsat. Best hope for the case is that it's not a true classic UM, but a UM-branded Blackhawk build.
I worked in a shop in Gwinnett Co Georgia and the Gwinnett Co PD is probably equal to or larger in size than Atlanta PD. Those guys rocked Bushmasters and Rock Rivers with Cmore sights and worse all the time...even their SWAT officers. Does that make it a good choice? No. However, budgetary concerns are a real issue, especially for smaller agencies and I can see where it's like, "Ok we'll get the DD pkg and have a usable rifle and we can upgrade the optics next year."
Again, I'm not advocating the use of low-quality gear, but I know a lot of guys that spend their own pennies on sub-par gear. I don't think DD is trying to pull one over on anybody. Simply offer an affordable rifle pkg.
Seems to me for the cost of that optic + mount, they could have put an Aimpoint Pro on there and kept the price similar. Then they could boast known quality and longevity. But I only know retail prices. No clue what it costs DD to get those items.
Sorry, the little lady in my avatar was yelling at me to come to bed when I posted this.
Most LEO's are not rich, and are not gun guys. As Beat Trash stated, it should come with an Aimpoint PRO. The guys who buy this package will;
1- Not have the cash to replace the optic.
2- View the optic as "good enough".
A shit optic backed by MBUIS.
The DDM4v5 is a fantastic rifle.
Back in 2004 Rock River Arms marketed the Government Model modeled after the DEA contract guns. It came with quality components; Surefire M951 light, EOTech 552, GG&G BUIS, a VTAC sling...and I believe an Eagle Ind bag. DPMS was also marketing a similarly equipped model. This is RRA and DPMS!
So, If DD wanted to do it right- ditch the airsoft/plinker optic. An Aimpoint PRO can't cost too much more than the Bushnell and mount. Include a white light. This could be as simple as a TRL1 or SF G2 with a mount. Add a quality sling (VCAS). Personally, I think it should have a fixed FSB.
I then think this argues more for DD fixed iron sights to back up the Bushnell rather than Magpul flip ups.
Right. I think the DD is doing a disservice equipping these guns with the Bushnell and mount, paired with MBUS's.
They should include their excellent fixed irons, with a voucher for a discounted Aimpoint PRO, a DD Micro and mount or even an EOTech.
The majority of folks who will purchase these packages should learn to shoot irons first anyways.
The bushnell is not that bad of a sight. I bought this package a few weeks ago. I put 150 rounds through it and didn't have any problems with it. I was not to keen on the optic and MBUS' but they serve a purpose.
The PRO optic is what $400, the bushnell is what $100 bucks? The magpul sights are 100, and a set of troys will cost 200 (just bought some). This package serves its purpose and that is to get a good rifle in the hands of the officer at a decent price. If they offered the package with an aimpoint and a set of troys your looking at a lot higher cost and that would keep lots of officers from buying one in the first place.
When the officer can afford to upgrade the components great. But DD is doing a great service by allowing officers to buy at a discount (i figured it saved me $250) and I got it shipped straight to my Dept in 3 days.
However, I wouldn't mind seeing them just offer a straight rifle at a discount and then let me outfit all the bells and whistles to what I see fit.
A cost move for sure, but Bushnell has been building long before aimpoint.
http://www.primeaffiliate.com/track/images/22.gif
http://www.canadablackberry.com/imgs/images/2.tod.gif
A cost move for sure, but Bushnell has been building long before aimpoint.
http://www.primeaffiliate.com/track/images/22.gif
http://www.canadablackberry.com/imgs/images/2.tod.gif
Seriously? Armalite has been building AR's longer than Daniel Defense. What does that have to do with the Bushnell being a sub-par optic on a shit mount, with a poor BUIS option?
You can disagree all you want. This optic and mount has no business on a serious patrol (or self defense) rifle. Period.
Fixed irons (not Troy folding) are better than this optic combo.
I am an LEO and I bought this package. My first thing I was planning on doing before even getting the rifle was change to the optic to a PRO.
I bought a Surefire not long after and qualified and have not had any problems. The ideas to make the rifle "Patrol Ready" are there, I am just happy I was able to get a DD Rifle 90% ready for ME.
In no way is DD doing a disservice to me or about five other friends/partners who are LE that are now looking at this package. LE pricing was right for what you get. So coming from an LEO, I am happy with the purchase.
The rifle never made me think twice when it was taken out on the first day on duty to apprehend a murder suspect on a felony stop.
My 2 cents...
Stretz Tactical Inc
03-15-12, 15:18
What are they charging for the package?
What are they charging for the package?
I am sure if you contact DD they might disclose that to you. I feel I am not in the position posting that information before you have contacted the manufacturer.
Let me preface by saying that I think Daniel Defense is a great company. Their rifles, mounts, sights and rails are among the best in the Industry. This is one of the reasons I am so befuddled over them offering a top notch carbine with such a low quality (opinion), untested optic and a mount that I have never even heard of. I see this as a compromise in integrity for DD.
We all know of the famous (and awesome!) DDM4 torture test featuring LAV. If not, see it here:
https://danieldefense.com/TortureTest
In that test, Larry’s carbine is outfitted with a T1 in a DD mount, a DD rear sight and a fixed FSB.
Now, stay with me. I know that LAV will not be throwing these carbines out of a truck and running them over. But what if he did?
Realistically, based on my experience these are more likely tests that a patrol rifle WILL encounter;
-Bash it on a patrol car computer stand or other interior obstruction. Do it again.
-Drop it in a parking lot.
-Smack it on a door frame. Now do it again on your way out with a struggling 250 lb gang banger in hand cuffs.
-Move it from ice cold trunk to inside of a warm home (fogging).
-Let it whack your equipment/gear during transitions/and cuffing maneuvers. Repeat 20X.
This is what a patrol rifle will endure over a month of use. Now, are you confident that this optic/mount combo is up to it? Make that shot. Do you trust the Bushnell on that mount?
I use the “30 yard head shot” example because my friend did just that with his iron sighted patrol rifle in a classic “hostage taker” shot with NO room for error.
I have had and sold both an EOTech and a Comp M2. Neither optic agreed with my astigmatism (especially the EOTech). I actually prefer the rugged simplicity and utility of my A2 carry handle. Does that mean they are better? No. But I am still hard pressed to find someone with an optic to best me on the range. The guys with ACOGs get me at distance. For me, money for an optic is better spent on ammo for training.
Is a RDS better than irons; generally yes. Is a POS RDS better than no optic? Absolutely not.
You do not need an optic on your patrol rifle for the CDI factor. Solid irons and a quality white light work great. Solid irons or BUISs, a light and a quality optic (see Aimpoint, Trijicon, EOTech, or S&B for the rich kids) are even better.
So, if I were a Dept Armorer- I would not allow an officer to field that quality DD carbine until it was properly equipped with fixed irons and/or a quality optic. My agency would say the same thing. This combo would not be allowed.
Offering a great package at a great price? Negative. Unless that price would make the optic and mount free, with a disclaimer it is not for serious defensive purposes and instructions on how to sell it on Ebay to airsofters to get money for a decent optic.
I really think DD should re-consider this option, and include their excellent fixed sight, their offset light mount and a VCAS sling and appropriate hardware.
Maybe I am alone in this opinion?
Sorry, the little lady in my avatar was yelling at me to come to bed when I posted this.
Tell her hello for me. :D
Maybe I am alone in this opinion?
I think you're right on the money.
Tell her hello for me. :D
I think you're right on the money.
Done and thanks. :cool:
justin_247
03-16-12, 06:50
You know, Oscar, how about you pick up the phone and call DD? So far, this thread amounts to nothing but a DD bash-fest with absolutely no usable information.
You know, Oscar, how about you pick up the phone and call DD? So far, this thread amounts to nothing but a DD bash-fest with absolutely no usable information.
Justin, it appears you are correct. Bashing DD was never my intent. I suppose I am just frustrated arguing things of this nature within my own ranks (why cheap gear does not belong on duty weapons). I will e-mail DD my thoughts and concerns (as well as thank them for offering an affordable package to LEO's) tonight.
Mods- feel free to lock or delete.
I called DD.
If you want the V5 LW as your duty rifle and you buy this kit, you're paying approximately retail price for the V5 (or similar), and DD is throwing some other stuff in to help you get started.
The base gun is GTG. Use or discard the other stuff as the mission requires. The Bushnell would be well suited for a dedicated rimfire trainer.
Looking at various vendor sites and contract quotes, you could put together a kit with a GTG base gun and better add-ons for approximately the same price as the DD kit. However, you would lose the 12" Omega, a very good rail, and the big value-added variable to the kit.
Sum: DD is doing a nice thing here, and at a fair price.
jonconsiglio
03-16-12, 09:58
Justin, it appears you are correct. Bashing DD was never my intent. I suppose I am just frustrated arguing things of this nature within my own ranks (why cheap gear does not belong on duty weapons). I will e-mail DD my thoughts and concerns (as well as thank them for offering an affordable package to LEO's) tonight.
Mods- feel free to lock or delete.
I don't think you're bashing Daniel Defense. I think you need an idea of the price first though, or maybe even talk to the guys at DD and ask their reasoning? I think it's been covered, but it may give you/us a better understanding.
Edit - as Skintop911 just did.
I actually e-mailed Joe @ DD about this thread when it started hoping he'd pop in. Guess he's been busy.
justin_247
07-02-12, 18:18
It should be noted that the DD LE packages have been revamped - they now include Aimpoint PROs instead of the Burris red dot sights.
https://danieldefense.com/rifles/law-enforcement-rifles.html
It should be noted that the DD LE packages have been revamped - they now include Aimpoint PROs instead of the Burris red dot sights.
https://danieldefense.com/rifles/law-enforcement-rifles.html
Now that i could roll with....
I want this upper with the the 11.5" or 10.3" barrel. I really want to try out the profile of the new DDM4 rail.
https://danieldefense.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/642x205/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/d/d/ddle_ssp.jpg
Too bad my employer won't sign off on an individual purchase for one of these. :(
Marler5811
07-03-12, 08:39
Better, guys!?! Our PRP, LWP, and SSP will now have DD Sights, an Aimpoint PRO, BFG Padded Vickers Sling, Vertical Grip, and 3 PMAGs. Not to mention that they will all feature our new DDM4 Rail and Flash Suppressor.
The DMP will have Magpul Flip Up Sights, Leupold Mark 4 LR/T scope in an ADM Recon Mount, Bobro Bipod, Rail Mount QD Sling Attachment, BFG Padded Vickers Sling, and 3 PMags.
Any LE Officer that wants pricing on these packages can email me at jmarler@danieldefense.com.
S/F
Joe
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