View Full Version : DPMS L.E.O AR? Really?
I do a lot of shopping at a store that deals in 3types of firearms
1) New guns
2) Surplus weapons and ammo like Mausers, Nagants. Along with Century AKs, FALs, Uzis...
3) Police trade in guns and police impound guns.
I often buy Police guns from them such as Glocks and S&W steel autos along with my Colt A3. It's a nice way to get quality arms at much cheaper prices. Anyhow, I walk in today to pick up some ammo and of course take a look around. They got in about 6 ARs, all DPMS's A3's and all have the "restricted law enforcement use only" stamped into the lower. All looked to have heavy barrels. What gives? I fact just from looking at them they looked like Colt A3. Does DPMS really undercut Colts prices that much that it's worth for the leo dpt to buy them instead of Colts? Or are these DPMS different (quality) from what they sell to the public?
They read my post on here a few weeks ago about how if Colt loses contracts with LEO agencies because of their old "SP" decision then DPMS would step up with LE markings to get said contracts.
;)
The people buying agency weapons are rarely the ones you'd want doing it. It's typically administrators or bean counters.
KrampusArms
03-14-12, 19:14
I doubt they're superior quality to anything else in their product line. I think AR rifles generally nowadays are all decent for the most part. The DPMS rifles are cheaper because they don't conform to the TDP. I would imagine thats why they were purchased for the LEO.They're not terrible rifles.
I think AR rifles generally nowadays are all decent for the most part. The DPMS rifles are cheaper because they don't conform to the TDP. I would imagine thats why they were purchased for the LEO.They're not terrible rifles.
My brother, you are not on the mark here. [I]All are decent?[I] The search button is your friend. Conforming, or exceeding, the TDP is what starts to make a Tier 1 rifle. DPMS does not qualify.
KrampusArms
03-14-12, 19:45
My brother, you are not on the mark here. [I]All are decent?[I] The search button is your friend. Conforming, or exceeding, the TDP is what starts to make a Tier 1 rifle. DPMS does not qualify.
Oh no don't get me wrong, I understand DPMS are not a great rifle. But they are not terrible. Most rifles will run, you just have a higher chance of some type of failure. What usually fails first is the bolt right?
They got in about 6 ARs, all DPMS's A3's and all have the "restricted law enforcement use only" stamped into the lower. All looked to have heavy barrels. What gives? I fact just from looking at them they looked like Colt A3.
Were they new, or used? During the ban, AR manufacturers selling SAWs all marked their guns as required, and some of their commercial production.
Does DPMS really undercut Colts prices that much that it's worth for the leo dpt to buy them instead of Colts?
They typically have a lower price point, though there's less difference now than in the past. That price difference doesn't matter much in single unit quantities, but if you're buying dozens to hundreds of guns at a time it will.
Value is the measure to use in purchasing rather than price, though few understand the difference.
Or are these DPMS different (quality) from what they sell to the public?
No. Unless building to specific contract specs, DPMS builds sport/hobby grade guns across the board.
They were police trade in so they were used. Lots of scratches, handling marks. I didn't really check them out, didn't even pick one up just kinda looked them over while they were sitting on the rack. I was more interested in a Yugo Mauser a few other surplus stuff and the crate of ammo I originally came in for. What's funny is that I paid about the same price for my Colt police trade A3.
Winner, winner chicken dinner.
The people buying agency weapons are rarely the ones you'd want doing it. It's typically administrators or bean counters.
They are pieces of shit. The upside is that the departments save money and the bean counters are happy. The downside is that weapon is unpredictable and could fail just when an officer needs it.
He then gets killed because of it. Ask yourself then how prudent the choice was.
Oh no don't get me wrong, I understand DPMS are not a great rifle. But they are not terrible. Most rifles will run, you just have a higher chance of some type of failure. What usually fails first is the bolt right?
They are pieces of shit. The upside is that the departments save money and the bean counters are happy. The downside is that weapon is unpredictable and could fail just when an officer needs it.
He then gets killed because of it. Ask yourself then how prudent the choice was.
What he said:D
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
KrampusArms
03-15-12, 00:46
What he said:D
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
Fine they're pieces of shit.
Alaskapopo
03-15-12, 00:54
I do a lot of shopping at a store that deals in 3types of firearms
1) New guns
2) Surplus weapons and ammo like Mausers, Nagants. Along with Century AKs, FALs, Uzis...
3) Police trade in guns and police impound guns.
I often buy Police guns from them such as Glocks and S&W steel autos along with my Colt A3. It's a nice way to get quality arms at much cheaper prices. Anyhow, I walk in today to pick up some ammo and of course take a look around. They got in about 6 ARs, all DPMS's A3's and all have the "restricted law enforcement use only" stamped into the lower. All looked to have heavy barrels. What gives? I fact just from looking at them they looked like Colt A3. Does DPMS really undercut Colts prices that much that it's worth for the leo dpt to buy them instead of Colts? Or are these DPMS different (quality) from what they sell to the public?
Unfortunately a lot of small departments end up buying DPMS crap because of the huge cost difference. The department I work for and past ones as well issued DPMS guns. I have had to go over them and replace certain parts and send some guns back to get them to run to a barely acceptable manner. I carry all personally owned weapons.
Pat
Alaskapopo
03-15-12, 00:55
They are pieces of shit. The upside is that the departments save money and the bean counters are happy. The downside is that weapon is unpredictable and could fail just when an officer needs it.
He then gets killed because of it. Ask yourself then how prudent the choice was.
The bean counters don't care. The think that is what insurance is for. Gone round and round with them on topics like this.
Pat
Alaskapopo
03-15-12, 00:57
I doubt they're superior quality to anything else in their product line. I think AR rifles generally nowadays are all decent for the most part. The DPMS rifles are cheaper because they don't conform to the TDP. I would imagine thats why they were purchased for the LEO.They're not terrible rifles.
They are TERRIBLE rifles. I can tell you this from first hand experience of seeing them fail time and time again in training. They are cheaper because DPMS cuts corners on quality control, materials and workmanship.
Pat
KrampusArms
03-15-12, 01:03
They are pieces of shit. The upside is that the departments save money and the bean counters are happy. The downside is that weapon is unpredictable and could fail just when an officer needs it.
He then gets killed because of it. Ask yourself then how prudent the choice was.
I think any weapon can fail. But for the needs of LEO yes, its necessary that they are issued higher tier weapons. I never suggested that it was prudent for them to carry DPMS, just that in general they're not a horrible rifle. A POS in my mind is an OLY rifle. Yet thats only because I have personal experience with that manufacturer. But seriously I was just bored today and felt like chiming in. I'm positive theres basis for the opinions and bias that I'm not privy to.
KrampusArms
03-15-12, 01:06
They are TERRIBLE rifles. I can tell you this from first hand experience of seeing them fail time and time again in training. They are cheaper because DPMS cuts corners on quality control, materials and workmanship.
Pat
Understood. Are they on the same level as OLY?
I know any weapon can fail. I have seen Colts fail, I have seen Glocks eat shit and the same with the vaunted AK.
What some of you people don't seem to understand is that with some it happens more (alot more) than others. This is the true difference. Then you start to take into account why xxx weapon is cheaper and the reasons become very clear.
When a company like Oly, DPMS, BM, etc.. can't even do the most basic of shit right (staking, QA/QC and the like) that should tell you all you need to know.
This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?
I think any weapon can fail. But for the needs of LEO yes, its necessary that they are issued higher tier weapons. I never suggested that it was prudent for them to carry DPMS, just that in general they're not a horrible rifle. A POS in my mind is an OLY rifle. Yet thats only because I have personal experience with that manufacturer. But seriously I was just bored today and felt like chiming in. I'm positive theres basis for the opinions and bias that I'm not privy to.
NoveskeFan
03-15-12, 01:30
This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?
I'm gonna need to change my sig line:D:lol:
KrampusArms
03-15-12, 01:31
I know any weapon can fail. I have seen Colts fail, I have seen Glocks eat shit and the same with the vaunted AK.
What some of you people don't seem to understand is that with some it happens more (alot more) than others. This is the true difference. Then you start to take into account why xxx weapon is cheaper and the reasons become very clear.
When a company like Oly, DPMS, BM, etc.. can't even do the most basic of shit right (staking, QA/QC and the like) that should tell you all you need to know.
This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?
HA HA! Dec 22nd...... You know I bought an RRA before I knew better, but everything I've read about them is not meshing with the mileage I've gotten. My key was staked proper, it hasn't malfed or exploded. I want that BCM don't get me wrong. But I think a lot of people here are just tagging along with this mantra of "its low tier its automatically crap".
What some of you people don't seem to understand is that with some it happens more (alot more) than others. This is the true difference. Then you start to take into account why xxx weapon is cheaper and the reasons become very clear.
When a company like Oly, DPMS, BM, etc.. can't even do the most basic of shit right (staking, QA/QC and the like) that should tell you all you need to know.
With safety equipment, what really matters is mean uses until failure - in the case of firearms for defensive purposes, it's mean rounds between failure given a competent operator, simply because it decreases the chance of turning your only defense tool into a 8# oddly shaped stick.
Low end isn't automatically crap, but it's like buying a Tata car for 20k because you don't want to pay 21k for a Toyota.
No, it's because I have actually seen DPMS and BM's being used overseas that failed.
Apparently some people will only learn the hard way.
HA HA! Dec 22nd...... You know I bought an RRA before I knew better, but everything I've read about them is not meshing with the mileage I've gotten. My key was staked proper, it hasn't malfed or exploded. I want that BCM don't get me wrong. But I think a lot of people here are just tagging along with this mantra of "its low tier its automatically crap".
NoveskeFan
03-15-12, 01:53
HA HA! Dec 22nd...... You know I bought an RRA before I knew better, but everything I've read about them is not meshing with the mileage I've gotten. My key was staked proper, it hasn't malfed or exploded. I want that BCM don't get me wrong. But I think a lot of people here are just tagging along with this mantra of "its low tier its automatically crap".
Whats your round count, use habits with the RRA?
HA HA! Dec 22nd...... You know I bought an RRA before I knew better, but everything I've read about them is not meshing with the mileage I've gotten. My key was staked proper, it hasn't malfed or exploded. I want that BCM don't get me wrong. But I think a lot of people here are just tagging along with this mantra of "its low tier its automatically crap".
How much did you pay for your RRA if you don't mind?
The reason I ask is because for about $100-150 more, I could have gotten into a MUCH better weapon. That's my issue with RRA. Both of mine have been good, though to be honest I haven't run them hard yet. But for what they give you, they're over priced. Way, way over priced. I don't appreciate being charged extra for a chrome-lined bore either.
I wouldn't buy another one. It'd be like a base model Camaro V6 for $37500, and a Shelby Mustang GT500 for $40000. Hmm, I don't need to contemplate this one for very long. (I don't want to hear from GM fanboys, it was just a metaphor. I'm a Jeep guy anyway.)
Alaskapopo
03-15-12, 02:06
Understood. Are they on the same level as OLY?
Just barely a notch above only because I have seen some fantastic stuff wrong with Oly. About 2 weeks ago a trooper comes to me to show me a rifle he had purchased and is proud of. An Oly in 7.62x39. He wants me to look the gun over. I break it down and find the spring for the detent that holds the rear take down pin is missing and the stock is lose. Like hand so loose I can move it with my hand. I get him a spring and tighten his stock and stake the castle nut. I also staked his bolt carrier key. He still has not fired it. What the hell Oly?
The Oly I purchased 15 years ago was similar but its alluminum forend free float tube was loose, the bi pod stud hole was drilled 20 degrees off when the hand guard was tightened by hand. The chamber was out of spec and bulged brass. I sent it back and it took them 18 months and a threatening letter to get them to get the gun back to me with a new barrel.
Then 6 months after that the set trigger they sold on the rifle started to double. They would not fix it and told me to contact the vendor they hired to install it. Williams Trigger Specalties. Any Oly is a complete fail and DPMS is pretty close.
Pat
KrampusArms
03-15-12, 02:15
Whats your round count, use habits with the RRA?
Heres where I get my ass handed to me. 4000 rounds so far. Shoot it every month and clean it when I get home. I have a no rapid fire rule at the range I go to. So no mag dumps.
KrampusArms
03-15-12, 02:16
How much did you pay for your RRA if you don't mind?
The reason I ask is because for about $100-150 more, I could have gotten into a MUCH better weapon. That's my issue with RRA. Both of mine have been good, though to be honest I haven't run them hard yet. But for what they give you, they're over priced. Way, way over priced. I don't appreciate being charged extra for a chrome-lined bore either.
I wouldn't buy another one. It'd be like a base model Camaro V6 for $37500, and a Shelby Mustang GT500 for $40000. Hmm, I don't need to contemplate this one for very long. (I don't want to hear from GM fanboys, it was just a metaphor. I'm a Jeep guy anyway.)
I only bought the upper, but too much.
KrampusArms
03-15-12, 02:25
Just barely a notch above only because I have seen some fantastic stuff wrong with Oly. About 2 weeks ago a trooper comes to me to show me a rifle he had purchased and is proud of. An Oly in 7.62x39. He wants me to look the gun over. I break it down and find the spring for the detent that holds the rear take down pin is missing and the stock is lose. Like hand so loose I can move it with my hand. I get him a spring and tighten his stock and stake the castle nut. I also staked his bolt carrier key. He still has not fired it. What the hell Oly?
The Oly I purchased 15 years ago was similar but its alluminum forend free float tube was loose, the bi pod stud hole was drilled 20 degrees off when the hand guard was tightened by hand. The chamber was out of spec and bulged brass. I sent it back and it took them 18 months and a threatening letter to get them to get the gun back to me with a new barrel.
Then 6 months after that the set trigger they sold on the rifle started to double. They would not fix it and told me to contact the vendor they hired to install it. Williams Trigger Specalties. Any Oly is a complete fail and DPMS is pretty close.
Pat
Thats incredible. WOW.The Oly I had experience with, the FCG actually sat slightly crooked in the lowers FCG pocket, & both spring legs werent resting in the trigger pin. It malfed hard, and ripped case rims off every other round, leaving brass stuck in the chamber. Not only that but the fit and finish was monstrous, and the magwell wasn't machined evenly on the sides. From what I understand OLY does their recievers in house.
I think it's easy enough to agree there's rifles, and then there's fighting rifles. That's about it.
There's an opinion out there that isn't a bad one, and it says that your gun should be as good as can be; don't buy watered down ckrap, because YOU might have to save someone's life. - also, possibly wasting good money is stupid, just save a couple hundred more!!
The other ideal is that some people just want to go to the range with their family and shoot some cans with wolf ammo or a .22 kit. It goes bang, so they figure it can double as home defense. Sure, probably, I guess.
The police deserve fighting rifles. It's not just for themselves, it's for everyone who might be protected by them. We pay taxes, and we agree these guys putting their life on the line ought to have good tools.
If I owned a DPMS I would just shoot it like any other rifle, but I wouldn't look at it as a fighting gun. I guess I could possibly train with it.
I often think of guns as swords. You can have different quality ones and practice with some, but in the end the one you want to master and take into battle is the one you know was made best. It doesn't mean it can't break, but it sure is your utmost being put forward in that time of need- God forbid.
Moose-Knuckle
03-15-12, 17:22
Being in the employ of a municipal agency I can say that all LE agencies suffer from the same thing, their administrators. Ours adopted BMs. :rolleyes:
sinlessorrow
03-15-12, 23:28
I'm gonna need to change my sig line:D:lol:
hahaha, same here, my new sig
No, it's because I have actually seen DPMS and BM's being used overseas that failed.
Apparently some people will only learn the hard way.
But they thought they were saving a Dollar.
:haha:
Beat Trash
03-16-12, 08:42
A DPMS LEO AR? Yes. My agency has had a couple of select fire DPMS guns for several years. They kinda-sorta work. Sometimes.
Just because individuals are assigned to an agencies Firearms Training Unit, doesn't mean they are knowledgeable about firearms.
They may be recreational shooters, who's knowledge base comes from reading Guns and Masturbation magazine. They may be connected within the agency, but know nothing about firearms other than what they may have learned from annual qualifications. There is more than a little politics involved in assigning personnel to units within an agency.
When my agency first instituted a Patrol Rifle program, we were at about 1,150 officers. The first 35 AR's we bought were Bushmasters. The overriding decision to go with this gun was that it included a free hard plastic case! Oh yea, the cases lasted about 2 months of officers throwing their gear bags on top of the gun case when both were in the trunk. Solution was to buy Uncle Mikes soft cases, as they're cheap. Did you know that Uncle Mikes glues the zippers onto the fabric of their gun cases? Care to guess how many times they've had to be replaced since 2005? Not so cheap any more...
Once a decision is made to buy into a particular piece of equipment, it's often difficult to change it. If you're going to spend 5-7 figures worth of an agencies funds, only to say "OOPS" we made a bad choice and would like a do-over, many will rather not admit that. Not very career enhancing. That individuals regularly have to go into harms way using the equipment choices made by these individuals is to me the ultimate irony.
Also keep in mind that it is very possible to ascend within the ranks of an agency and have little to no actual personal experience in dealing with violent individuals or have been involved in a critical incident.
After 19+ years of dealing with this environment, I have permanent scars on my forehead from banging it on various walls.
Gunfighter 9
03-16-12, 10:41
I have seen first hand how the decisions of bean counters can impact officer safety. The agency I work for does not issue raidos to officers who go into the field. This means that we must make our field visits with no easy means of contact other LEO's. Despite having been in numerous sitautions that required additional support from the local cops our agency still has not purchased radios. So it is no suprise to me that other agencies would cheap out on patrol rifles. In fact I am often shocked to see how little most Police officers actually know about firearms in general. The hiring practices of most agencies are vastly different compared to what they were 20 or 30 years ago. It's much more politically correct, and they don't always hire the "best" candidate. These less than adept officers usually find their way into administration very quickly, and with little if any real field experience. Thus you have bean counters who don't know of any difference between Colt, and DPMS other than price.
p22shooter30
03-16-12, 12:41
Has there ever been a study done to say like - In the past 10 years 15 officers have been killed or wounded because thier "brand" rifle didnt fire? maybe on a state level or even a national level?
The bean counters don't care. The think that is what insurance is for. Gone round and round with them on topics like this.
Pat
Like the bean counters in any big company, they saved a buck or two so who gives a shit if it turned the whole operation into a total failure? Their purchase looked good on paper so they deserve their performance bonus after the funeral's over.
huntswithweim
03-16-12, 17:28
The dept. I work for runs DPMS.
Why? They were low bid. But really we haven’t had any trouble with them. If I had a choice I would take my personal rifle (Spikes) over my duty rifle. Mainly due to having a higher round count and more time behind the rifle.
Alaskapopo
03-16-12, 18:05
The dept. I work for runs DPMS.
Why? They were low bid. But really we haven’t had any trouble with them. If I had a choice I would take my personal rifle (Spikes) over my duty rifle. Mainly due to having a higher round count and more time behind the rifle.
If your department has had no problems with your DPMS guns the you guys should buy lottery tickets because your are the luckiest guys around.
Pat
The_War_Wagon
03-16-12, 18:38
HA HA! Dec 22nd...... You know I bought an RRA before I knew better, but everything I've read about them is not meshing with the mileage I've gotten. My key was staked proper, it hasn't malfed or exploded. I want that BCM don't get me wrong. But I think a lot of people here are just tagging along with this mantra of "its low tier its automatically crap".
You may NOT borrow my BCM on December 23...;)
KrampusArms
03-16-12, 19:11
You may NOT borrow my BCM on December 23...;)
No don't worry, I'm not going to ask! I'll be purchasing my own this summer. If they're in stock....... I have to say. While I'm aware my RRA isn't a high tier fighting rifle. I have been very pleased with it's performance. I went to the range just today in fact. My round count is in the lower 4000 now, so I'm watching out for the breakage prone areas a bit more.
huntswithweim
03-16-12, 19:55
If your department has had no problems with your DPMS guns the you guys should buy lottery tickets because your are the luckiest guys around.
Pat
I will give the lottery a try. Our DPMS have not been used hard either. I probably put 500ish rounds a year through mine and the Chief’s rifle is lucky to shoot 100 rounds a year. Most of my ammo allowance goes through my personal rifle. My comment was not an endorsement of or for DPMS.
I will give the lottery a try. Our DPMS have not been used hard either. I probably put 500ish rounds a year through mine and the Chief’s rifle is lucky to shoot 100 rounds a year. Most of my ammo allowance goes through my personal rifle. My comment was not an endorsement of or for DPMS.
Might as well put them back in the cardboard box and call them new. :D
Beat Trash
03-17-12, 08:24
Just as any company that produces a quality product can on occasion produce a defective item, a company that consistently produces a defective product can on occasion produce a product that will function. It's when a company demonstrates a pattern of producing substandard equipment when you have to look at the short term savings vs. the long term costs. Especially as it relates to safety equipment for your officers.
Most Officers are not knowledgeable about firearms, outside of their training. Nor should they have to be. The only thing they should have to know outside of their training is that their equipment will work when the moment of need arrises.
These officers are betting their lives on decisions made by others on their behalf. Very sore topic for me personally. Trying to work within your system to institute change sometimes feels like trying to empty the ocean with a bucket. But keep at it, the life you save may be your own. And sometimes you are actually successful!
DeltaSierra
03-17-12, 08:42
But I think a lot of people here are just tagging along with this mantra of "its low tier its automatically crap".
Oh, I'm sure that everyone wanted to know what you "think" on this subject.
No, I haven't personally had any issues with a Rock River, but then again, I learned my lesson on a different brand of low-end garbage, and didn't need to sample the products of yet another company that is industry-known for taking shortcuts.
KrampusArms
03-17-12, 17:53
Oh, I'm sure that everyone wanted to know what you "think" on this subject.
No, I haven't personally had any issues with a Rock River, but then again, I learned my lesson on a different brand of low-end garbage, and didn't need to sample the products of yet another company that is industry-known for taking shortcuts.
Perhaps I shouldn't have commented on anything. This forum is obviously not for people who take things personally. Next time I'll observe rather than participate. I'm only a civilian, with experience with a lower end rifle. But reading these forums has taught me a lot. Next time I'll just read, instead of contributing opinions. This is an awesome forum.
TacticalTyler
03-17-12, 19:19
Perhaps I shouldn't have commented on anything. This forum is obviously not for people who take things personally. Next time I'll observe rather than participate. I'm only a civilian, with experience with a lower end rifle. But reading these forums has taught me a lot. Next time I'll just read, instead of contributing opinions. This is an awesome forum.
Its good that your going in the right direction. I dont have a high post count, but ive been reading and getting info on this site for years... EVERYDAY just about. But if you really do search dpms on this forum, you will find that they are on the bottom of the shit list with bm,oly and the others. Ive read in enough carbine class discussion of these guns failing countless times and ive witness it too.
So the bean counters suck. Should never indangered the lives of the officers who handle those rifles.
Since we are talking about DPMS I'll throw my 2 cents in. We run them in my dept as well. We are phasing out our govt issued A1's.
I was tasked with getting together a list of manufactures and prices about 7 years ago. My choice was Colt and of course Colt was the most expensive. I explained why we should go with them instead of DPMS or Bushmaster. Well a few months later and I get deployed before any decision is made. 2 years later I come back and get a brand new DPMS issued.
I ran it through a 3 day carbine course(2000 rds) and expected it to hiccup. We had 6 rifles in the class. Not a one failed. Me and another guy could not get the guns zeroed with the supplied BUIS. MI on the front and another brand for the rear(brain fart at the moment). We ran out of adjustments(the instructor mentioned that that is common when 2 different manufactured sights are used on the same gun).
So after the course I talk with the guy from our dept who ordered them. He says that is the way DPMS suggested we buy them(I forgot to mention that these have the heavy machine gun bbl on them as well. Also with full auto). So I call DPMS and ask the rep that sold them to us and ask him why about the above. He tells me that they use the two different sights when they run out of the other(piss poor in my book) brand. I ask about the heavy bbl. He tells me thats how we ordered them.
Later on I go home and pull out magazines that have articles on DPMS guns. I looked closely at the sights and they are mix matched as our guns are. So its a common practice to be cheap as we all know.
We have 8 new rifles coming in this month and I can say they are not DPMS.
I have about 6000 rds through my dept issued DPMS and have had no issues other than the front sight falling off. Its always in the back of my mind when it will fail! I honestly don't trust it.
The bean counters often just don't know what they don't know. There are tons of adds in police magazines that constantly show up at PD's Colt has just started advertising and paying for good placement. The "combat tested" adds. Before that the BM and DPMS and Rock River have had a huge presence for years. I was telling a fellow chief in a neighboring PD about my recent LMT purchase. He asked skepticaly if the quality was as good as DPMS, Rock River, or Bushmaster! :jester: I spent some time explaining the differences. But he bought a few BM carbines following our discussion. One of the main reasons is the local cop shop carries and stocks them.
The bean counters often just don't know what they don't know. There are tons of adds in police magazines that constantly show up at PD's Colt has just started advertising and paying for good placement. The "combat tested" adds. Before that the BM and DPMS and Rock River have had a huge presence for years. I was telling a fellow chief in a neighboring PD about my recent LMT purchase. He asked skepticaly if the quality was as good as DPMS, Rock River, or Bushmaster! :jester: I spent some time explaining the differences. But he bought a few BM carbines following our discussion. One of the main reasons is the local cop shop carries and stocks them.
How many rounds do you think they will see in a year? I ask because I have no idea what a typical PD rifle qual entails.
My department (120-ish sworn, everyone has a rifle issued) also issues DPMS rifles. The initial issuance was in 2006, and to my knowledge there haven't been any major issues. with that said, ours aren't run very hard either. 99% of them see 100-200 rounds a year at best.
I took mine through a tac ops in rural terrain school and intentionally "neglected" it the whole week. Te round count was only about 600, but the rifle did get a little bit of abuse. As long as I kept it lived, it ran fine, and I had a couple of magazine issues, but other than that I didn't have any problems.
To date, I haven't had a reason not to trust it, but it definitely wouldn't be my choice of I had one. Now back to ordering the parts for my tax refund DD build...
Hundred of rounds at most. Not thousands. Our last chief would send me to pick up ammo and wanted us to shoot 5 rounds, yes Five rounds each through the AR during our twice a year qualification. I went crazy and made sure everyone got at least 20 rounds and that was pre '08 when ammo was a lot cheaper. We increased our ammo budget from $750 a year to $2500 a year for a PD of 9 officers, 4 full time, 5 part time and that is still not enough. They just cut it back to $2000 for this year. It is frustrating. We also lost a full time position. Several of us shoot on our own but still nowhere near what we should/could.
Perhaps I shouldn't have commented on anything. This forum is obviously not for people who take things personally. Next time I'll observe rather than participate. I'm only a civilian, with experience with a lower end rifle. But reading these forums has taught me a lot. Next time I'll just read, instead of contributing opinions. This is an awesome forum.
I posted this on another board and figured it would fit here:
We have to remember that most of the people (I think) who are constantly trashing BM, DPMS, RRA, or any other name not on "The List of 100% milspec" are probably those who carry one daily and their lives depend on their equipment. They require a higher level of reliability and that's what drives their point of view.
There is a difference between a professional-level working gun and a hobby-level plinking gun. I only require hobby-level for my uses and I'm perfectly happy with any of the evil ol' "off-brand" ARs long as they work. I am gradually finding some of the flaws that these guys are talking about and fixing them as I go. I get about as big a kick out of working on my guns myself as I do shooting them. For instance, if I find one that isn't "properly staked" I grab a hammer and punch and stake the SOB. It ain't hard. It's not as pretty a job as a BCM or Colt but it works just as well-the screws don't come loose. Mission accomplished. Chamber not a true 5.56? Hell, I got a Christensen reamer right handy-10 minutes at the most. Done. No more popped primers due to high pressures. (Yes, the naysayers were right-it happens even if the bbl IS marked 5.56)
I let the guys rant 'cause I can see where they're coming from. I can look at my el cheapo AR and then look at my Colt side by side and usually see what they're talking about. Then I fix it if I deem it necessary. I DON'T replace bolts etc just because somebody says brandX is MPI and mine ain't. I run it til it fails. None of my cheapo AR15 bolts have failed yet.
If you are happy with your gun and it's adequate for your purpose, good. Let it all slide off like water on a duck's back. If you are using your gun for law enforcement etc, you need that extra professional-level assurance that it won't fail when you need it most.
KiloSierra
03-19-12, 20:22
Another local PD bought some DPMS sbr's last year. Curiously, they were put together better then my PD's Bushmaster's. Still, if I had to make a choice between Bushmaster and DPMS, I would get the Bushmaster and fix It. Most of Bushmaster's problems seem to be from a lack of quality control in assembly, unlike DPMS where there is a complete lack of quality control everywhere.
p22shooter30
03-19-12, 20:49
every officer on a 120 member force has an m4 issued to them and you wonder why you dont have enough money to buy top tier rifles.
I can tell you that Jordanian special forces use DPMS. :lol:
I can tell you that Jordanian special forces use DPMS. :lol:
According to Wikipedia, they're the first nation to adopt the 6.8 SPC for their army.
I will call bullshit on that. I have seen them when I was in Jordan and they had Colts.
I can tell you that Jordanian special forces use DPMS. :lol:
Failure2Stop
03-20-12, 00:48
I can tell you that Jordanian special forces use DPMS. :lol:
Some have LMT
I will call bullshit on that. I have seen them when I was in Jordan and they had Colts.
The ones I was around had LMT and DPMS.
polymorpheous
03-20-12, 01:14
But seriously I was just bored today and felt like chiming in.
Herein lies the problem.
A lot of new members are spouting complete nonsense and other new member rush to defend them.
Positive Displacement
03-20-12, 06:40
HA HA! Dec 22nd...... You know I bought an RRA before I knew better, but everything I've read about them is not meshing with the mileage I've gotten. My key was staked proper, it hasn't malfed or exploded. I want that BCM don't get me wrong. But I think a lot of people here are just tagging along with this mantra of "its low tier its automatically crap".
I sold my RR upper for 350.00 and bought the BCM for 399.00!
That "key" was the only thing "they" did correctly. I unloaded my upper/BCG as fast as I could for a BCM/and spikes that was built to a MIL-SPEC standard. I haven't found anything on RR website that is built to a specific standard. Sure, Rock River is a good entry level gun to the person who doesn't know. Knowing that you can build a great weapon for under a 1K, well there's something to be said!
The only way you'll find the truth about the quality is to buy one and shoot it. It's certainly a more powerful statement then listening to some people on the Internet. You'll either find those guys on the Internet forum were right, or wrong. Certainly this bickering back and forth is about as useful as throwing sand on a beach.
I will call bullshit on that. I have seen them when I was in Jordan and they had Colts.
You can call BS all you want, but the ones I was with in Jordan and Afghanistan had DPMS. I wouldn't be so quick to call people liars you are not the end all be all of information.
Some have LMT
The ones I was around had LMT and DPMS.
I knew I could read letters and numbers and such.
The only way you'll find the truth about the quality is to buy one and shoot it.
No need to buy it and shoot it. Since coming here I have learned that the DPMS I own has a gas port that is larger than mil-spec and that DPMS doesn't release their specs. I’m sure that DPMS uses gun steel and that there are as reliable as a hunting rifle, but when you and your loved ones lives depend on a weapon you want to know that they are good to go.
To be quite honest when you made your post followed by the silly turning smiling face, I thought you were kidding.
In any case the Jordanian SF personnel I saw in Jordan all had Colt's most of them older models.
You can call BS all you want, but the ones I was with in Jordan and Afghanistan had DPMS. I wouldn't be so quick to call people liars you are not the end all be all of information.
To be quite honest when you made your post followed by the silly turning smiling face, I thought you were kidding.
In any case the Jordanian SF personnel I saw in Jordan all had Colt's most of them older models.
The emoticon was for making fun of DPMS, if you don’t want emoticon use then get rid of them. The DPMS's I saw were very new.
All I know personally is that the only really bad AR that I ever was issued was a Hydromatic M-16A1. Pin that holds the trigger in place would come out. Simtomatic of many of the Hydromatic M-16's that we had.
The Colt XM177E1's?- "CAR-15's" did go bang most of the time.
The several Colts, Bushmasters, RRA and DPMS that I have owned since retiring go bang regularly and hit where I point them.
I've shot thousands of rounds and as long as I keep the guns "wet" and more or less clean, have found that 99.9 out of a 100 malfunctions are due to mags or cheap wolf ammo I shoot.
Yeah, they dont have chrome lined barrels, but its hard to find corrosive 5.56, I rarely swim in salt water with an AR and I dont "rock and roll" anymore, nor try to wear out barrels in one day.
I was issued a Hydromatic M16A1 during basic and never had an issue. Do you know why the trigger pin would walk? I'll give you a hint- it has nothing to do with the fact that it is made by Hydromatic.
All I know personally is that the only really bad AR that I ever was issued was a Hydromatic M-16A1. Pin that holds the trigger in place would come out. Simtomatic of many of the Hydromatic M-16's that we had.
The Colt XM177E1's?- "CAR-15's" did go bang most of the time.
The several Colts, Bushmasters, RRA and DPMS that I have owned since retiring go bang regularly and hit where I point them.
I've shot thousands of rounds and as long as I keep the guns "wet" and more or less clean, have found that 99.9 out of a 100 malfunctions are due to mags or cheap wolf ammo I shoot.
Yeah, they dont have chrome lined barrels, but its hard to find corrosive 5.56, I rarely swim in salt water with an AR and I dont "rock and roll" anymore, nor try to wear out barrels in one day.
Iraqguns, no idea why the pin would walk w/ the GM guns.
Interested in knowing why.
Thanks.
It has nothing to do with manufacture. Hammer pins walk loose because the "J" spring inside the hammer is worn out or missing. Without the "J" spring nothing will stop the pin from moving.
The trigger pins will walk loose because the hammer spring is worn or incorrectly installed. If you look at your trigger/hammer pins they have grooves. One in the center and one on the end. The center groove is where the "J" spring locks into place.
The outer groove is where the leg of the hammer spring rests. So i the spring is worn or installed wrong (I have seen it quite a bit) nothing will stop it from walking out.
Iraqguns, no idea why the pin would walk w/ the GM guns.
Interested in knowing why.
Thanks.
Iraqguns, thanks.
I wish that we would have known that then...instead of sending them back to Direct Support maintenance and not seeing the weapon for another three months, ha!
Thinking some more on it- when the 1st Cav came back from VN in '71, we "fell in on" the equipment, barracks etc left by the 1AD @ Hood.
Those Hydromatic M-16s that and 1/8? and 1/12Cav got were pretty well used...
Makes sense that parts were worn out and needed the constant maintenance.
Thanks again.
A couple of years ago I was at a public event where a Cincinnati PD SWAT van was in attendance. I was shocked to see a row of DPMS AR types next to HK MP5's and (I think) Remington 870's on this rollout vehicle.
I was shocked because I never thought the men of CPD SWAT would be issued such a low budget weapon for the job they are asked to do. I know CPD was one of the first departments to adopt the S&W MP9 as a sidearm...would they be better served to go with a S&W M&P variant carbine?
A couple of years ago I was at a public event where a Cincinnati PD SWAT van was in attendance. I was shocked to see a row of DPMS AR types next to HK MP5's and (I think) Remington 870's on this rollout vehicle. I was shocked because I never thought the men of CPD SWAT would be issued such a low budget weapon for the job they are asked to do.
Don't be. It's the norm, rather than an exception.
A few years ago, a couple M4C members and I were at a rifle class, also attended by members of a large city SRT. They brought short barreled DPMS carbines, topped with Eotechs. They met our expectations. Good troops, lousy gear.
I know CPD was one of the first departments to adopt the S&W MP9 as a sidearm...would they be better served to go with a S&W M&P variant carbine?
In a word, yes. Further... An agency that wants to be fully stacked within a brand can make themselves a very good deal if they make an effort, and their rep is worth a darn.
Beat Trash
04-01-12, 09:43
A couple of years ago I was at a public event where a Cincinnati PD SWAT van was in attendance. I was shocked to see a row of DPMS AR types next to HK MP5's and (I think) Remington 870's on this rollout vehicle.
I was shocked because I never thought the men of CPD SWAT would be issued such a low budget weapon for the job they are asked to do. I know CPD was one of the first departments to adopt the S&W MP9 as a sidearm...would they be better served to go with a S&W M&P variant carbine?
Yes, we were one of the first agencies to issue the M&P9. The three T&E guns were the first three 9mm's to leave the factory. (The prototype slide stop sucked compared to what they put on the production gun) If you saw a shotgun, it was a Remington 870.
I can tell you that there are only a few DPMS guns with SWAT (I want to say 4). They are 14.5" select fire guns bought years ago. Depending on who you talk to is whether or not there have been issues (loose barrel nuts from the factory). Grant from G&R Tactical was down last year along with instructors from S&W training with our SWAT teams. He witnessed some issues with a DPMS gun not functioning. I drove out to meet him in person during a lunch break (neat guy, really liked his SBR). He was a bit frustrated...
When these guns were bought, the only choices were Colt, Bushmaster or DPMS. During that period, Colt was under different management and priced much higher. The DPMS was cheapest, and the wizard who picked the guns for SWAT truly believed that they are all the same anyway. Of course that individual had no experience with AR/M16's.
There are also a few 20" Colt M16A2's obtained from the Gov program as well as Semi Auto S&W M&P's (16" M&P15's).
Patrol is afforded mostly Bushmaster's or some M&P's for patrol rifle trained officers to use. (All new patrol rifles are M&P15's) Just recently personally owned, departmentally approved patrol rifles were authorized. As a Patrol Sergeant, I now have my Colt 6920 in my trunk while working.
It's a cold fact of life that decisions on weapon selection for an agency are not always done by those knowledgeable enough to be entrusted with this task. And once a decision is made that involves spending valuable assets such as money, it's usually not career enhancing to go to the top and say, "Oops... Wrong choice..."
Case in point, the MP5 is being phased out for various reasons (all valid in my opinion). They are being replaced with Sig pistol AR type SBR's (10.5"?) with Surefire suppressors. The T&E consisted of one gun tested for an afternoon.
I've said for years that the person carrying a gun into harms way, be they a LEO, Military, or a father protecting his family against the evils of the world kicking at his front door, shouldn't have to be an expert on how the weapon is made. They don't need to be an armor. All they need to know about the quality of their gun is that they can trust it to work when needed.
This is why I feel it's so important that a person know what the hell they are talking about if they are going to make a recommendation to someone when choosing a gun to carry into harms way. More so if you're choosing for your agency.
But when you look at agencies issuing DPMS guns en mass, you need to look at the time frame these guns were bought. When my agency started a Patrol Rifle program in 2005, S&W didn't make AR's. BCM and Dd were too new to bet on. Colt was under different management and their agency pricing was much higher and availability for guns was almost nonexistent.
If you go back a few more years, the choices were slimmer if Colt was ruled out. Now if you've got some idiot is spouting that all the guns are the same and an administrator is trying to save a few bucks, then Ta Da... You've got DPMS!
Basically this is what happens when people set up performance metrics in a vacuum and then rely heavily on high level statistics. Bean counters are only graded on saving money, so they get an at a boy for buying the gear at the greatest savings. Couple that with the following analysis: Colt - failure rate 1/10,000 rds (making some shit up), DD - failure rate 1/8,000 rds (making some shit up), blah blah blah down to lowest tier gun with a failure rate 1/500 rds (making some shit up). Average police officer shoots 200 rds a year in qualifications and training. Average police officer shoots MAYBE 30 rounds in the line of duty over a career. The "logical" conclusion is that they don't need to splurge on a tier 1 rifle, and instead they can put that difference in spending on really important stuff like oak office furniture or another diversity class.
It sucks donkey weenie, but our fearless leaders have degenerated to this level of "thinking" at almost every issue, not just LEO firearms issuance. The worst part is that because most officers don't use their weapons the above analysis rings "true". The incredibly few that take the time to test their own equipment are viewed as trouble makers when they do run into failures and report them.
Lower tier guns have their place, but I agree that it isn't in duty use. My RRA 16" middie works great as a plinker and game gun. Never had issues with it, but it is babied. Would I love a Colt 6940, damn right, but at the time I couldn't afford one, hell I still can't.
....Couple that with the following analysis: Colt - failure rate 1/10,000 rds (making some shit up), DD - failure rate 1/8,000 rds (making some shit up), blah blah blah down to lowest tier gun with a failure rate 1/500 rds (making some shit up). Average police officer shoots 200 rds a year in qualifications and training. Average police officer shoots MAYBE 30 rounds in the line of duty over a career....
Regardless of the made up numbers (I would actually say the average rounds an officer shoots on duty is closer to zero but I don't have any solid numbers to back that up only my experience) I think you have a point. Most officers, thankfully, will never have to use their gun much less their rifle. Is it good to have, you bet. You never want to be in the position where you need a tool but don't have it. But if you want to talk odds I think it would be interesting to compare a rifle failure rate (not sure how you would ever get real numbers on that) to real line-of-duty rifle shooting incidents. Calculate that and then tell me if it really is a problem that this department got dpms rifles. Granted we all want the best tools available but, like I said before, it's better then having nothing in a time of need.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Beat Trash, thank you for that explanation. That makes sense. I was able to find a few photos of the weapons I saw that day on an old memory card.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/canucksvt/Image016.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/canucksvt/Image017.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/canucksvt/Image018.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/canucksvt/Image019.jpg
... Granted we all want the best tools available but, like I said before, it's better then having nothing in a time of need.
About the only thing worse than not having the tool is thinking you have the tool and acting accordingly only to find out that it crapped itself. Aka the loudest sound heard in a gunfight is the click of a failure.
I'd also live to see some study about failure rates in officer deployed firearms that was truly attributed to weapon failure instead of mags, ammo, maintenance or plane jane operator head gap ala the backwards magazine insertion. This is more of an academic study than anything.
If I was running a department, I'd be driving the crappiest left over cruiser using IKEA particle board furniture and making sure that my guys were getting the best I could afford wrt to training and equipment. If I couldn't afford to equip and train my men with quality, I'd cut the number of people with carbines and phase in top shelf gear over a time span if needed. Thankfully, we aren't at a stage where we have active shooters all over the place, so every cop out there doesn't need a carbine.
I'm old fashioned that way. Unfortunately in todays world, promotions all too often mean ego boost and an increased feeling of self worth.
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