Craziest Failure I've Ever Seen (No Pics, Sorry)

[HKUSP.40]

So I figured I'd post a story from today's range session. I recently purchased a BCM carbine and sold my previous RRA carbine to my friend who's just getting into guns. He, literally, has never shot a firearm before so I took him through the whole safe handling spiel.

Well, he loaded up his magazine and inserted it into the rifle. He then grabbed the charging handle and gently pulled back the charging handle and gently rode the charging handle forward (instead of gripping and ripping like I had explained). He then hands me the rifle and says something is wrong. I look at it and notice the BCG is only 1/2 way forward. I can see a round had worked its way somehow ABOVE the BCG. I really couldn't tell what was going on so I locked the charging handle to the rear, pulled out the magazine, and observed the most F*ed up thing ever. The live round had WEDGED itself BETWEEN the upper receiver and the gas tube. The gas tube was somewhat bent downward and causing the gas key on the BCG to hit it thus preventing the BCG from going forward all the way.

I was dumbfounded....never seen this before. I removed BOTH takedown pins and was able to get the upper receiver off. From there I had to take a large flat head screwdriver and basically pry the round loose and it fell out. The bullet had shoved itself 1/2 way into the shell casing so it was ruined. I re-assembled everything and still noticed the BCG wasn't going forward all the way. I took the upper back off and noticed the gas tube was bent downward slightly so I applied some light pressure to it and was able to get it back in place. I also noticed that because the gas key was hitting the bent gas tube, the gas key opening was chewed up slightly but nothing too bad. After all was said and done, everything worked fine. He put about 150 rounds through the rifle without any issues.

It was related to him being soft with the charging handle and riding it forward which caused some sort of feed-related failure but damn...that was some crazy stuff. Anyone ever experienced this?

It should also be noted that I first attempted to mortar the rifle on the butt stock to dislodge that round but that didn't work. However, it did cause the butt stock to now be completely stuck. I think the spring loaded pin that locks it in place got bent?? It is the RRA "Operator" stock. No biggie because he has a Magpul MOE on the way but I want to figure out how the hell to remove it!

[Pax]

I have only seen Charging Handle Impingement-type malfunctions when shooting from unconventional positions. Mostly any type or adaptation of rollover prone or "urban prone" as they say. I would be very surprised if he did not at least roll the weapon inboard about 90 degrees while charging it.

Ensure that the gas tube is properly aligned. If you cannot realign it with whatever non-marring tool you can get, replace it. Its a cheap and essential part. Have your friend post pics of the gas key if possible to ensure that hes not going to blow up his gun and risk more serious replacement costs and/or personal injury.

Figure out how to disassemble the stock. If you cannot, have a competent smith do it for you. If avoidable, dont mortar collapsible stocks in general. I dont care if its a goddamned UBR. If you can perform another type of remedial action that also fixes the problem and the circumstances allow for it... Dont abuse your equipment.

In the event of a CHI, I always default to a knife because Ive always got one on hand. Be. Carfeul. If. You. Do. I have not only seriously marred an upper's shell deflector with this method, but also cut the shit out of my hand. Be. Careful. You may want to train with any other commonly available, non-marring but strong tool.

[tonyxcom]

Supposed to collapse the stock all the way before mortaring it.

[Failure2Stop]

It's generally referred to as a "bolt over base" or a "type 8 (ate)" malfunction.

Lock the bolt to the rear if the ch will allow you to get the bolt back to the bolt catch.
If not, insert something in front of the bolt and push the bolt to the rear and engage the bolt catch.
I prefer to use something like the pliars on a leatherman or the built-in hook of the MUT as it greatly reduces the change of gouging the shit out of your upper, your knife, or your hand, especially in the dark.
Rip the magazine out.
Slam the CH forward and check for the ability to fully stroke the CH/bolt.
If the brass is still stuck, shove your pliars between the brass and the CH cut and pull the brass rearward (prevents dicking up your gas tube).
Reload and charge.

DO NOT MORTAR THE GUN WITH THIS STOPPAGE AS IT WILL ONLY MAKE IT WORSE.

If you need to mortar the gun due to a failure to extract/locked bolt:
Fully collapse the stock
With fingers applying rearward pressure on the CH, drive the gun straight down into the ground/solid object (leg/knee hurts but will work in a pinch) trying to ensure that the heel of the stock (the end of the receiver extension) is the part that makes contact with the ground.
I have done this or directed it's execution dozens of times, and when the steps were properly executed there was no damage to the weapon.

[KrampusArms]

Wow that is utterly screwed. Thanks for the story! I hope your buddy will charge his weapon properly from now on.

[Pax]

Bolt over base.... Upside down, right? Just want to be clear. As I understand it, 99% or so of bolt over bases are on the other side of the bolt. Correct me, please, if I am wrong.

[Animal_Mother556]

How did the bullet jam back into the casing if he rode the charging handle?


Also, when doing the "mortar" thingy...it is generally best to collapse the stock.

[Sticks]

How did the bullet jam back into the casing if he rode the charging handle?

My bet: Crap magazine or not properly seated rounds when loading the mag. Usually happens when you slap the bottom of the mag on a locked open bolt.

In the class that I just took, we manually created the various types of malfunctions and learned how they happen. Even if you can't get the bolt to lock back by pulling on the charging handle, you can use your right index finger to hold the bolt (through the ejection port) and using the side of your left hand sliding across the top of the receiver extension tube, slam the charging handle forward (for lack of a better description, a karate chop).

It helps to stick the muzzle in the ground (or on a table, box, glove...if you are afraid of plugging your muzzle device in soft sticky type terrain) Stick the butt of the rifle in the center of your chest, and use both hands to pull the charging handle back, then lock the bolt.

I had one funky created malf. that had the head of the round above the bolt, and the nose diving behind the next round started in the chamber, and diving into the mag. That one was a bitch to clear. Bolt and charging handle locked solid. Took me 4 or 5 pull charging handle, hold with finger, slam charging handle, repeat...to clear it. Both rounds were bent (bowed - not dented) in the middle of the case.

[BIGUGLY]

Failure2stop nailed it. Had this happen to a dept owned Colt, was definately a WTF moment when it happened. Only ours was while firing luckily a armorer was near by and has fixed this more than once, otherwise it was definately a head scratching moment.

[Failure2Stop]

Bolt over base.... Upside down, right? Just want to be clear. As I understand it, 99% or so of bolt over bases are on the other side of the bolt. Correct me, please, if I am wrong.

Yes, bolt over base usually implies just that, the bolt overides the base (head) of the cartridge as it tries to feed from the magazine feedlips. It's one of the reasons that the inverted occurrence is commonly called a "Type 8", tongue in cheek or "brass over bolt".
Really though, they are just bolt obstructions, and that's why I wrap them up in double-feed clearance (along with stove-pipes).

[tpelle]

So I bet the mortaring of the rifle is what caused the bullet setback and maybe the buffer tube bending. If the operator really nursed the bolt forward, the case probably wouldn't have gotten jammed in there to do that much damage. But with the cartridge being where it ended up, the extractor probably wasn't engaged with the case rim, so all mortaring the rifle did was make the bolt group act like a hammer.

[sinlessorrow]

If you slowly pull the BCG back some times the bolt will put enough pressure for a log enough time on the back of the cartridge that it will cause it to pop up, and out of the magazine, enough so that when the BCG goes forward it will shoot the cartridge up like you explained.

[John_Burns]

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/f1daef99.jpg

I just came back from a Mike Pannone CTTS class (same one as Sticks) and we worked a lot on this type of malfunction. I would suggest you rip the magazine out before you attempt to lock the bolt to the rear.

By first removing the magazine you give the stuck rounds more room to move and a place to go as you pull the charging handle.

Place butt stock in center of chest and use both hands to retract charging handle far enough to lock bolt to rear.

Next step is the above mentioned chop with the left hand to run the jammed charging handle forward and release the stuck round. The charging handle must go completely forward.

Insert fingers into magwell and tilt rifle fore and aft to dislodge any rounds.

Hit bolt release with thumb and listen for “metal on metal” of carrier group going into battery.

If you had the bolt locked to the rear and after you hit the release the bolt went into battery then you have proven that the gun is clear. Mike stressed to us that then racking the bolt back and forth served no purpose and only wasted time. He also pointed out that if you still had stuck rounds in the action you were only compounding the situation by racking the bolt and smashing the rounds.

If you hear carrier going from slide lock to battery you have cleared malfunction and now insert a new magazine. The bolt should be forward at this point so charge using charge handle. You might or might not eject a round that found its way into the chamber during your clearing the gun but losing one round was a small price to pay to ensure your back in working order.

As others have said the only time you would use the mortar technique is when the bolt and charging handle are fully forward and there is no movement. This indicates a case stuck in the chamber.

If you get any movement and the charging handle can be retracted partially then mortaring is a very wrong answer.

I was really impressed with how simple it was to clear these types of malfunctions while blindfolded when you understood how they occurred and had a plan.

At first I kind of wondered what was the point of the blindfold thing but when you consider that statistically it will be dark if you ever have to do this for real then the whole idea of learning to do it without looking at the gun make a whole bunch of sense.

As a side note Mike related that the HK 416 was slightly more prone to this type of malfunction than a DI gun due to the faster cyclic rate of the piston driven gun. The 416 also has more room in the channel for the charging handle to accommodate the piston system and the round on top of the bolt jammed in at steeper angle than a DI pattern gun and was more difficult to clear.

He never inferred the HK was a bad gun or unreliable just that it was more prone to this malfunction and was more difficult to clear.

[HKUSP.40]

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/f1daef99.jpg


I appreciate all the insight. Yes, I definitely made the mistake of not collapsing the stock all the way when mortaring it. The picture above is SIMILAR to what happened but not the same. My round was ABOVE the gas TUBE. Wedged between the gas tube and the actual top of the receiver. What I believe caused the bullet to push into the casing and cause the round to get stuck even more was then I cleared the magazine, I was able to pull the charging handle to the rear and lock it back. I then saw the stuck round way up top on the other side of the gas tube. While I was attempting to get it dis-lodged with my pocket knife at first, the bolt carrier didn't want to stay locked back so it kept slamming forward...causing the bolt to wedge the bullet in further and tighter. The round needed to come backward toward the rear of the gun to fall out which is why I thought to mortar the weapon. I did everything right except for not collapsing the stock...I'll deal with that one later. After about 3 good whacks and the round not dislodging, that's when I utilized a tool and pried the sucker out. It worked...and I was able to get the gas tube back into place. No kinks, or anything on the tube.

I'll get pics of the gas key and post them up.

EDIT: I took my rifle apart and somewhat "simulated" what happened. Obviously, I didn't wedge the round up over my gas tube but I drew a red line where his was approximately. Hopefully that explains a little better what happened.

PICTURE:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SnuPSwAvZAw/T2JtaeUjI8I/AAAAAAAAAtA/bWTLS4-yLkk/s640/IMG_0685.JPG

[nimdabew]

Malfunctions are a good reason to keep a multi-tool with a pair of needle nosed pliers on your kit.

[HKUSP.40]

Malfunctions are a good reason to keep a multi-tool with a pair of needle nosed pliers on your kit.

Definitely! :agree:

[Failure2Stop]

I would suggest you rip the magazine out before you attempt to lock the bolt to the rear.


You are right, I wrote that past my bedtime. If you can get the mag out with the bolt in it's locked up position, do so.

There are about 5 or 6 different ways to clear the "brass over bolt" obstruction. The big thing is to familiarize yourself with how the gun behaves with different orientations of the stuck round, with both live and empty cartridges, because they all feel different, and some methods of retracting the CH, retracting the BCG, bouncing the CH, and tilting the gun will work better or worse depending on how the stoppage was created.

[John_Burns]

HKUSP 40

In your picture the cartridge is in front of the nose of the charge handle. This can only happen in the situation you described, the charge handle is at the rear when 2 rounds try to get to the chamber.

If you get a double feed while shooting the cartridge is behind the nose of the charge handle and the gas tube is protected by the nose of the chargeing handle.

For this reason Mike was adamant that the charge handle must be all the way forward before you check for unobstructed forward travel by send the bolt carrier forward to avoid this type of malfunction.

F2S,

I know I sound like the guy who just stayed in a Holiday Inn Express but Mike really did a great job with that block of instruction.

The way he taught it you did your diagnosis from the rack part of the tap/rack.

If the charge handle is all the way forward and has no movement then the answer is to remove mag and mortar.

If charge handle will start to come back then you have to get the bolt locked back one way or another. Most likely you will be able to do it using just the charge handle but be prepared to go through the ejection port with fingers or a tool to get the bolt lock to the rear. Until the bolt is locked to the rear and the charge handle is completely forward you have not proven you have full movement to the rear.

After you get the bolt locked to the rear/charging handle fully forward and you believe all the cartridges are out of the gun then hit the bolt release and listen for the “metal on metal” of the BCG going to battery.

Until you hear that noise you have not proven you have full movement of BCG forward to battery.

Now we can insert a new mag and get the gun reloaded.

I realize you have a great handle on this so I am really just writing this stuff to help me internalize it better.:)

[Failure2Stop]

I know I sound like the guy who just stayed in a Holiday Inn Express but Mike really did a great job with that block of instruction.

...

I realize you have a great handle on this so I am really just writing this stuff to help me internalize it better.:)

I agree with the info you are passing.
The difference is that I begin assessment following the chamber check (only TRB if I get a hammer fall with no boom).
HOWEVER... as you said, 416s are more prone to the stoppage than DI ARs. I have seen less than 10 real-life brass over bolt stoppages, but I have dealt almost exclusively with DI issued guns.
If I carried a 416 and had to deal with that stoppage with the same frequency I deal with double-feeds in DI ARs (more than brass over bolt, but less than bolt failing to lock to the rear on an empty magazine) I see the value in his methodology of identification.

[HKUSP.40]

Some great info here and definitely learned something about a new (to me) type of failure. I feel bad my buddy's gun had to to be the guinea pig but after all, he started it! Haha. A learning lesson for everyone involved.

[Pax]

Interesting nuts on that TRX...

[HKUSP.40]

UPDATE...

Here's a couple pics of his gas key...you can see there's 2 gash-like marks w/ metal burrs sticking outward. I may just lightly file the burrs down. The rifle functions fine as is right now. The gas tube is straight as an arrow so I don't foresee any issues.

PICS:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vsme_A-4k6M/T2LstKcKoAI/AAAAAAAAAtM/Hjw03DD976o/s640/IMG_0691.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KxO8sS38d0o/T2Lss1sh1VI/AAAAAAAAAtI/gLQd7vT88NQ/s640/IMG_0692.JPG

[Sticks]

I just came back from a Mike Pannone CTTS class (same one as Sticks) and we worked a lot on this type of malfunction.

Thank you for filling in the omissions in the procedure, and doing the in depth description of what we were taught. Early morning post and coffee had not kicked in.

KUSP.40 - I would not chance it. Spend the $30 and replace both the gas key and the tube.

[John_Burns]

Interesting nuts on that TRX...
Wondered if anyone would catch that.

The Helicoil pulled so I just went to a backing nut. I suspect Troy would replace the handguard but I actually like the way the nut works.