View Full Version : Baffle strike. What now?
After replacing the rail on my 10.5 I wanted to test function. So I took it out to put a few rounds through it. As you can see from the photo below things did not go as planned. I fired half a dozen rounds without the Can and then attached the can. It as on tight but on about the 5th or 6th round the can went flying. Beyond the external damage the baffles inside show obvious damage.
I have already contacted AAC and they asked me to send it in.
What can I expect as far as repairs on here? Anything I should watch for when I get it back?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ZnJe9o-7bO0/T2Je3VZ85QI/AAAAAAAAAFU/fZos2eKC_Mw/s1024/DSC00019.JPG
From what I have heard from others ...
probably 1/2 price on a new can? :confused:
Great. Damn thing only has a couple thousand rounds through it.
Eurodriver
03-15-12, 18:29
Tornado man,
Can you give a little more information?
Have you fired this can/mount/barrel combo prior to the rail installation?
Are you sure it was on correctly?
After the baffle strike, was the suppressor loose?
Tornado man? Lol. Nice.
This can/rifle/mount combo has about 1500 round on it only change was the rail from a DD Omega to a Troy Alpha.
Can was on tight, I always give it a really hard twist. And I don't know how it could have been on incorrectly.
Eurodriver
03-15-12, 19:14
I just have no idea how a baffle strike could be caused by a rail installation.
You took the FH off to install the rail right?
Did you use peel washers? Did you do anything differently?
Obviously this does not help you with your damaged can, like Javelin said, I expect AAC to offer you a replacement at 50% MSRP (maybe work on them for 25% off a 90t can? ;) )but i would still like to know how this occured.
It is an 18t brake actually. Not a FH. They made very few of them.
I did have to remove it but it was replaced, shimmed, and rockset as normal.
This did not happen on the first round suppressed but instead the 5th or 6th. Another thing of note, one of the springs was out of the channel when I picked up the can. I can tell you with 100% assuraty that it was mounted properly before I shot.
I really hope it is fixable without having to pay for a new one. Even at 50% + stamp I don't have the money right now with all the storm damage.
Hell maybe I can bore it out and use it for a .300 can. :haha:
Hell maybe I can bore it out and use it for a .300 can. :haha:
That would be kind of neat actually. :D
I wonder if they can do it with all the damn red BATFE tape. :confused:
Hope they work a good deal for you.
That would be kind of neat actually. :D
I wonder if they can do it with all the damn red BATFE tape. :confused:
You know.... I was kidding.. But if it is possible that may not be a bad worst case scenario. I would imagine it is legal just like it is legal to use a 7.62 can on a 5.56. But hopefully it won't come to that.
You know.... I was kidding.. But if it is possible that may not be a bad worst case scenario. I would imagine it is legal just like it is legal to use a 7.62 can on a 5.56. But hopefully it won't come to that.
I'd want one if only for 300BLK :D
I had the same thing happen on a lmt 10.5 and m4-2k. I sent it in to them, they made repairs, and sent it back free of charge. Got about 1500 rounds thru it since then with no issues.
You know.... I was kidding.. But if it is possible that may not be a bad worst case scenario. I would imagine it is legal just like it is legal to use a 7.62 can on a 5.56. But hopefully it won't come to that.
ATF has published opinion that changing the caliber of a suppressor is a taxable event.
Of course, I think ATF envisions a far more involved process than just enlarging the bore. I would refer to any such work as enlarging bore clearance for safety!
maybe they can edm it out for you.
That would be kind of neat actually. :D
I wonder if they can do it with all the damn red BATFE tape. :confused:
If your can has to be scraped they will build you one with the same S/N as the old one. It would of cores be the came caliber as the old one also.. No need for a new tax stamp.
If your can has to be scraped they will build you one with the same S/N as the old one. It would of cores be the came caliber as the old one also..
That is really good to know in case I blow out a can *knocks on wood*
Eurodriver
03-16-12, 06:20
If your can has to be scraped they will build you one with the same S/N as the old one. It would of cores be the came caliber as the old one also.. No need for a new tax stamp.
Please keep this forum professional.
That is entirely incorrect, please Google the term "gemtax". Not the month gemtech pays for your tax stamp either, that was a PR move done to cover up the real gem tax - them ratting out AAC to the BATFE for remarking an M42000 with their serial number.
Manufacturers can no longer do this per ATF rules and every replacement now requires a $200 tax.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Please keep this forum professional.
That is entirely incorrect, please Google the term "gemtax". Not the month gemtech pays foryour tax stamp either, that was a PR move done to cover up the real gem tax - them rattling out AAC for remarking an M42000 with their serial number.
Manufacturers can no longer do this per ATF rules.
kwelz,
I may be worng, so bear with me. I also have an M4-2000 with an 18T mount. IIRC I installed my mount directly to the barrel with Rocksett. I did not use a shim or any type of washer. In addition Loc-tite is not enough to secure the mount. You must use Rocksett which is why they provide it with new cans/mounts.
It is an 18t brake actually. Not a FH. They made very few of them.
I did have to remove it but it was replaced, shimmed, and loctited as normal.
This did not happen on the first round suppressed but instead the 5th or 6th. Another thing of note, one of the springs was out of the channel when I picked up the can. I can tell you with 100% assuraty that it was mounted properly before I shot.
I really hope it is fixable without having to pay for a new one. Even at 50% + stamp I don't have the money right now with all the storm damage.
Hell maybe I can bore it out and use it for a .300 can. :haha:
Please keep this forum professional.
That is entirely incorrect, please Google the term "gemtax". Not the month gemtech pays for your tax stamp either, that was a PR move done to cover up the real gem tax - them ratting out AAC to the BATFE for remarking an M42000 with their serial number.
Manufacturers can no longer do this per ATF rules and every replacement now requires a $200 tax.
Keep it professional? How do reconcile your opening statement with your shameless attempt to cast aspersion on Gemtech?
Eurodriver
03-16-12, 08:37
Keep it professional? How do reconcile your opening statement with your shameless attempt to cast aspersion on Gemtech?
Boohoo.
Quit bitching, that's exactly what Gemtech did and it ****ed over every NFA owner in the process.
Its not like I said anything that wasn't true.
I did have to remove it but it was replaced, shimmed, and loctited as normal.
I can tell you with 100% assuraty that it was mounted properly before I shot.
Of course you meant to say surety... I can assure you that something wasn't done correctly if the weapon functioned properly before you wrenched on it.
Great. Damn thing only has a couple hundred rounds through it.
This can/rifle/mount combo has about 1500 round on it only change was the rail from a DD Omega to a Troy Alpha.
I'm confused...
How did you make the jump from "a couple hundred rounds through it" to "has about 1500 round on it"?
KalashniKEV
03-16-12, 08:44
Boohoo.
Quit bitching,
I'm glad you're "keeping it professional..."
:rolleyes:
polymorpheous
03-16-12, 08:51
Take it to PM's ladies.
I was learning something by this thread before the bickering.
I wouldn't blame Gemtec for asking for clarification after AAC pulled this stunt!
http://i40.tinypic.com/2uosb3a.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2iu8hte.jpg
QuietShootr
03-16-12, 09:10
I wouldn't blame Gemtec for asking for clarification after AAC pulled this stunt!
http://i40.tinypic.com/2uosb3a.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2iu8hte.jpg
Oh, is THAT what happened? That's weapons-grade ****ing stupid, and exactly the kind of thing I've grown to expect from AAC.
I'm confused...
How did you make the jump from "a couple hundred rounds through it" to "has about 1500 round on it"?
Because that should have been a couple thousand not a couple hundred I mistyped. Total round count on the can is about 2K. 1500 or so of which are with the setup it was on when this happened.
Now all of you stop shitting in my thread!
kwelz,
I may be worng, so bear with me. I also have an M4-2000 with an 18T mount. IIRC I installed my mount directly to the barrel with Rocksett. I did not use a shim or any type of washer. In addition Loc-tite is not enough to secure the mount. You must use Rocksett which is why they provide it with new cans/mounts.
IG you are correct. It was Rockset not loctite. And the reason I used Shims is because this was a Muzzle break not a flash hider. AAC did a very limited run of them with the 18T attachment system and sold them through Major Malfunction.
Keep it professional? How do reconcile your opening statement with your shameless attempt to cast aspersion on Gemtech?
What about "aspersions" against AAC for trying to reuse Gemtech's serial number?
Edit: looking at the photos above, serial number piracy isn't even the start of it! What was AAC trying to pull, engraving "GEMTECH, BOISE ID" on what's clearly an AAC suppressor. Fraud much?
KalashniKEV
03-16-12, 10:43
What was AAC trying to pull, engraving "GEMTECH, BOISE ID" on what's clearly an AAC suppressor. Fraud much?
It's so amazingly stupid... why would they put themselves at such great risk just to save some guy $200?
Could you imagine KB'ing a MAC and serializing an MP5 with the same info?
Can you post a pic of the mount? I think I have the same one.
Because that should have been a couple thousand not a couple hundred I mistyped. Total round count on the can is about 2K. 1500 or so of which are with the setup it was on when this happened.
Now all of you stop shitting in my thread!
IG you are correct. It was Rockset not loctite. And the reason I used Shims is because this was a Muzzle break not a flash hider. AAC did a very limited run of them with the 18T attachment system and sold them through Major Malfunction.
Can you post a pic of the mount? I think I have the same one.
Here you go. Not a great photo but good enough.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ABdFEgcFVLw/T2OkzaAA6xI/AAAAAAAAAF0/attzKGT8Rd8/s1024/DSC00033.JPG
Are the bullets striking any where inside the mount/muzzle device ? You might have to scrape some carbon to see that around the openings.
Are the bullets striking any where inside the mount/muzzle device ? You might have to scrape some carbon to see that around the openings.
It does not appear that the MB ha any strikes. I am sending both off to AAC on Monday.
I think I have one of those as well and I don't recall using a washer or shim.
Here you go. Not a great photo but good enough.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ABdFEgcFVLw/T2OkzaAA6xI/AAAAAAAAAF0/attzKGT8Rd8/s1024/DSC00033.JPG
If it were me, Id do my best to save myself the time and expense. Ball peen hammer to the front, reinstall the mount to the barrel, and ensure the can locks up correctly.
I think I have one of those as well and I don't recall using a washer or shim.
How did you time it then? Or did yours line up right without them?
If the strikes on the last two baffles aren't too bad, they will machine off the endcap, weld on a new one, EDM the bore to make sure it's obstruction-free and then refinish the can. It'll look and feel new.
At the end of the day, S happens...
the curious thing is that in order for a mounted can to shoot downrange, it would have to unscrew a full 540 degrees in order to fly off the mount... I don't know how that could happen starting from mounted fully tight in only 5 shots... ?
A good thing to do would be to put a witness mark on the back of the can with a paint pen in order to be able to monitor any rotation of it.
Sorry murphy caught you.
I may be wrong. I know I have seen that mount before as I installed one.
How did you time it then? Or did yours line up right without them?
Yeah Murphy is a real SoB that is for sure.
I was pretty confused too when the can went flying. I am always paranoid about the can because of the mounting system. It has never felt secure to me so I always give it an extra firm twist and double check it. That why I am confident that it was on there good.
One other thing I noticed was that one of the springs had popped out of the channel it is normally in. But I can't say if this was caused while still on the gun or from the impact into the ground. I am shipping it off to AAC tomorrow.
Also I don't doubt you IG. I was just curious. Because without shims this thing is timed with the ports at about 2 and 7.
I just though I would give everyone an update.
I spoke with Mike at AAC today. The can is toast, there is way to much internal damage to make it worth fixing. Since they don't make the M4-1000 anymore they are replacing it with an M4-2000. They are also replacing all my Muzzle devices with the 51T versions.
I would have been happy with getting the Can fixed. To replace it is amazing.
The original cause was a spring failure. Apparently one of the springs failed and allowed the mount to loosen up. This lead to it unscrewing enough to cause the first strike and it was all down hill from there.
That is simply bad ass! I assume that you have to wait for new paperwork to go through, yes?
I just though I would give everyone an update.
I spoke with Mike at AAC today. The can is toast, there is way to much internal damage to make it worth fixing. Since they don't make the M4-1000 anymore they are replacing it with an M4-2000. They are also replacing all my Muzzle devices with the 51T versions.
I would have been happy with getting the Can fixed. To replace it is amazing.
The original cause was a spring failure. Apparently one of the springs failed and allowed the mount to loosen up. This lead to it unscrewing enough to cause the first strike and it was all down hill from there.
That is simply bad ass! I assume that you have to wait for new paperwork to go through, yes?
Yeah have to do all new paperwork and I am out another $200 for the tax stamp. But considering they are replacing a $600 can with a $1000 can and sending me 3 new muzzle devices I can't complain too much about that. I am more annoyed at the 6+ month wait than the money.
For sure. Now you have to join the "I can't shoot suppressed club" for a bit. If it's any consolation I can send you a free bumper sticker.
Yeah have to do all new paperwork and I am out another $200 for the tax stamp. But considering they are replacing a $600 can with a $1000 can and sending me 3 new muzzle devices I can't complain too much about that. I am more annoyed at the 6+ month wait than the money.
QuietShootr
04-11-12, 11:26
Please keep this forum professional.
That is entirely incorrect, please Google the term "gemtax". Not the month gemtech pays for your tax stamp either, that was a PR move done to cover up the real gem tax - them ratting out AAC to the BATFE for remarking an M42000 with their serial number.
Manufacturers can no longer do this per ATF rules and every replacement now requires a $200 tax.
"ratting out"? I wouldn't call what happened "ratting out". AAC did something really stupid that could have gotten Gemtech questioned.
ETA: Amazing. Maybe they learned something in the process of ejecting the guy who told me they wouldn't replace an $300 can because it cost them too much.
For sure. Now you have to join the "I can't shoot suppressed club" for a bit. If it's any consolation I can send you a free bumper sticker.
Haha. Hey at least I have my .22 can.
The real fun part is going to be my next VSM class. My buddies hate it when I shoot without a suppressor on. 10.3" gun + muzzle break - Suppressor = ouch to my shooting partners.
I just thought I would give everyone an update. AAC is apparently not making M4-2000s right now. I assume that they are using production time for newer cans. So I have to wait another month or so for it to be made, then however long it takes for paperwork between them and my shop. Then of course I have to wait for my ATF forms.
The more I have thought about it the less happy I am about all of this. I am glad they are replacing the can, especially since they said there was a problem with it. However I am no happy that I am probably a year out from actually having the can in my hands.
Am I wrong for being mad about this? The problem happened back in early/mid march and now we are in Mid June and they haven't even produced the can, much less got it to my dealer.
Do we know what caused this? Does the fact that there were no marks to the muzzle brake mean anything? Or was this all the work of Murphy?
I would be upset about this as well. Did you contact AAC for this information or did they contact you? I can't imagine that it takes long to make a suppressor and one would think they would do it to get it done and over with.
I just thought I would give everyone an update. AAC is apparently not making M4-2000s right now. I assume that they are using production time for newer cans. So I have to wait another month or so for it to be made, then however long it takes for paperwork between them and my shop. Then of course I have to wait for my ATF forms.
The more I have thought about it the less happy I am about all of this. I am glad they are replacing the can, especially since they said there was a problem with it. However I am no happy that I am probably a year out from actually having the can in my hands.
Am I wrong for being mad about this? The problem happened back in early/mid march and now we are in Mid June and they haven't even produced the can, much less got it to my dealer.
Maybe see if you can find one in stock at a shop somewhere in your state and see if AAC will buy that silencer from them on your behalf so you can get it sooner than later, but it only buys you a month or so on a time frame of around 6-8 months for all the paperwork. It's frustrating but I'd be happy that I'm just getting it replaced. Yes it'll take a while but you'll get it.
I just though I would give everyone an update.
I spoke with Mike at AAC today. The can is toast, there is way to much internal damage to make it worth fixing. Since they don't make the M4-1000 anymore they are replacing it with an M4-2000. They are also replacing all my Muzzle devices with the 51T versions.
I would have been happy with getting the Can fixed. To replace it is amazing.
The original cause was a spring failure. Apparently one of the springs failed and allowed the mount to loosen up. This lead to it unscrewing enough to cause the first strike and it was all down hill from there.
That's what I figured.
1. JasonM states the can must un-screw 540*. No way it was on firm, and then flew off. YOU put it on firm, but somewhere along the way, it loosened up.
2. No way 5 rounds made it through the thing and then #6 caused "massive internal damage" unless the can had come loose and was misaligned prior to round #6 (or 5, whatever it was).
3. This is why the improved 18T latch was made, and then why the 51T mount was made, and similar problems with it, are why the 90T mount was made. It uses a friction interface and takes the load off of the latch nearly completely, unlike the 18 and 51 tooth mount/latch combinations which rely on the latch to retain the can primarily, instead of secondarily. Each method slightly improved upon the last, until we have finally arrived at the 90T can, removing the latch as the primary load-bearing retention mechanism, and relegating it to fail-safe duty.
I would be upset about this as well. Did you contact AAC for this information or did they contact you? I can't imagine that it takes long to make a suppressor and one would think they would do it to get it done and over with.
I was going to order AAC before I decided to do different. They take FOREVER to produce a suppressor. Do not order one unless it's in-stock, is what my dealer told me. He has had SR7's on order for many months now, as well. Nada. Not even Form 3'ed to him yet. Doesn't even have a serial #.
AAC takes their time. Find one in stock and see if AAC will buy it for you/contribute. They have a reputation for great CS, and I bet they will!
Do we know what caused this? Does the fact that there were no marks to the muzzle brake mean anything? Or was this all the work of Murphy?
It was drilled slightly off center and there was a problem with the mount. The two problems together led to the baffle strike.
I would be upset about this as well. Did you contact AAC for this information or did they contact you? I can't imagine that it takes long to make a suppressor and one would think they would do it to get it done and over with.
I contacted them last week to check on the status and this is when they told me this.
Hell I am still waiting on the muzzle brake they are supposed to replace. Don't even have an ETA on that.
While I am happy they are replacing it, I am pretty miffed about this.
well shit, I was all giddy that BattleComp is bringing out a 51T BC, and I could finally get a can, but after reading this and all the BS you've had to go thru I'm not entirely sure I wanna deal with AAC.
well shit, I was all giddy that BattleComp is bringing out a 51T BC, and I could finally get a can, but after reading this and all the BS you've had to go thru I'm not entirely sure I wanna deal with AAC.
AAC also has plenty of "good" stories, too.
I just spoke with AAC again. Their reply to me was pretty much to deal with it. M4-2ks won't be produced till Early July so it is going to be a couple weeks before they even produce them. And then a few weeks after that for the ATF to do the paperwork to send it to my dealer.
Given the current Wait times for our paperwork I figure I am looking at Feb 2013 on having my paperwork back and the Can in my hands. Unacceptable in my opinion. And of course they tried to make it sound better by saying that they upgraded me to a M4-2K and sent me A couple flash hiders.
But the fact is they had to do this because:
A: They don't make the M4-1K anymore
and
B: They changed the mounts so my old mounts will not work with the new cans.
I am still out the cost of removing the perm attached Flash hiders and pinning new ones as well as being out $200 for a new stamp.
It's frustrating and AAC's customer service sucks, but in the end you're getting a new can for the cost of a stamp and swapping a few muzzle devices out. I wouldn't complain too loud, you're still getting a good deal.
While it may be frustrating- remember they are doing right in the long run. I think, as you admitted, getting a new can out of the deal is pretty well going above and beyond. Asking AAC to change their production schedule to make you a can however may be expecting just a little bit too much.
As someone said above but to expand- maybe see if you have a local dealer who has an M42k in stock, start transfer on that and have AAC send your can to said dealer to replace their stock once it's done.
Just thought I would post an update.
After a year and 2 days the new can is in my hands. To be fair half of this wait was not due to AAC. Overall I am happy and will buy AAC again. They made it right and that is what matters.
I wish those clowns still made the M4-1000. I'm pretty locked into the 18toofus mount system.
I was thinking of picking up another M4-1000 so I don't have to upgrade my whole mount inventory any time soon.
I think this thread has convinced me to buy another centerfire rifle suppressor as soon as fund are available to have in addition to my soon to be approved AAC-762-SDN6. Gotta have a back up plan. ;)
NFA stuff is a painful paperwork drill. My dealer recently said that Form 3s were at about 2 months, Form 4s about 6. :(
When the frenzy settles down a couple of more suppressors definitely are on the list of additions.
If your can has to be scraped they will build you one with the same S/N as the old one. It would of cores be the came caliber as the old one also.. No need for a new tax stamp.
This is bad/incorrect advice. No mfg. can legally build a new suppressor with the same serial number. If they could save the tube and re-use it OK, but a re-issue is a no-no.
Those days are gone, unfortunately.
Edit: I just realized how long ago those posts are about re-issuing a serial number. My bad.
Glad to see you found a resolution and are back at the range suppressed.
domestique
03-18-13, 18:14
Glad you finally got your can back.
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