View Full Version : Fun Range Trip and "Torture Test" (Pictures and Video Inside)
BushmasterFanBoy
03-15-12, 17:58
Hello everyone. A few weeks ago my brother and I took a range trip of an usual nature. Instead of the usual strict regime of drills we just deceided to have a fun and enjoyable trip, a throwback to the old days of plinking with .22s.
We had a small chunk of ammo and after awhile banging on the steel at close range was starting to lose it's interest. So being the young adults that we are we had some ideas pop in our mind. That was our first mistake :D.
First off just let me say that my brother and I have been enjoying the shooting sports hobby since we were each about ten years old. It's been a fun ride but along the way we have seen our fair share of malfunctions. An ocassional failure to feed on a 1911, the rare bad primer, an off brand magazine here and there, even a squib from a reloader. All in all we have seen malfunctions. But, we had never actually done a proper torture test ourselves. We had always read about them on the internet but never actually conducted one.
We decieded to give each one of three pistols a mud and sand bath and then empty a magazine into a large dirt backstop. We took an HK45 LEM with Heine Sights and it failed miserably. The pistol actually locked up to the point where my brother could not even retract the slide.
We also gave an M&P 9mm a quick bath and it failed to cycle an entire magazine as well, though we did both agree it seemed to have a fewer share of malfunctions.
The .40 S&W Beretta Vertec did just as poorly as the HK45.
The results were surprising for us especially. All 3 of these pistols have never let us down, apart from ocassional parts breakage on the Vertec. The M&P and the HK45 have been flawless wih each having gobbled up a few cases of ammo with no malfunctions of any sort. We were both dissapointed that these "combat pistols" did so poorly and were wondering if these results were typical? Anyway thanks for taking a look and I hope you enjoy the photos and video. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrlsDep6LMA&feature=youtu.be
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd283/Burke888/IMG_1239.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd283/Burke888/IMG_1242.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd283/Burke888/Hk45-2.png
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd283/Burke888/IMG_1243.jpg
wow, do you have a video of the M &P malfunctions?
BushmasterFanBoy
03-15-12, 20:40
wow, do you have a video of the M &P malfunctions?
Sadly we didn't record that.
We were so shocked (As you can tell from the video), because the pistols had honestly never had any sort of hiccup whatsoever before. Based on the reputation that the HK and the M&P had and combined with our own experience, we were expecting a lot more. The jams were unexpected to say the least. I am really curious as to what the more knowledgble members have to say on this topic. I didn't expect mud and sand to put one of these weapons out of action.
The whole event really made me question just how resiliant these pistols are. I don't think they can tolerate much resistance in the mechanism. Heavy grit and particulate pretty much siezed up the HK45 and the Beretta 96 Vertec. The M&P only had slightly fewer hiccups, which I attribute to the fact that it is striker fired and doesn't have the exposed hammer mechanism inside.
Serpico1985
03-15-12, 20:41
Looks like y'all had fun, hell any day at the range is a good day. I wouldn't put too much weight on how they preform with all that $hit gunked up in their system.
That said, I still love a good home brewed torture test video.
By the way you need to send your HK45 mag base plates to CCC for their carry mod. They are the $hit. Makes the mags %100 more loadable, real quick turn around too.
what really bothers me is how realistic of a problem that could be. It doesn't seem crazy that somehow your sidearm could fall into a puddle like that in a stressful situation...hell stuff happens.
I tossed my first glock into a puddle like that and it had no problems, the magazine did after it dried out though.
Even more troubling is that after test firing a few M&Ps I was thinking about purchasing one to see if it is a viable alternative to my EDC glock.
Rmplstlskn
03-15-12, 21:18
Wow, surprising... That must have been some silty mud to jam it up so bad... And it wasn't like you ground it into the mud...
Rmpl
Microalign
03-15-12, 21:55
Put enough dirt in the wrong places of any gun and it will lock up like a metrosexual's buttocks in a state penitentiary.
Not that surprising to me. A couple years back, an active duty Navy SEAL posted some photos on the LTW forum of his partners Sig P228 that had been blasted with "moondust" during an extraction from a mission. The P228 slide was locked like 3/4s of the way open from the dust. He use to post on various forums under the name Frogman. At the time, Cylinder and Slide had just put together his Trident pistol and he was explaining why the Fail Zero coating on the parts. So not really that surprising.
RagweedZulu
03-15-12, 23:21
It would have been interesting to see if/how a Glock would have performed under the exact same conditions. I'm betting it would work, but there's never going to be a 100% reliable mechanical device.
The HK and M&P locking up dont surprise me. I recently saw high dollar 1911s, SIGs and HKs driven by super tactical SWAT and military guys go tits up at a course I took. The conditions were hot and dusty, but no deliberate abuse. I'm no fanboy, but the G21 I was shooting and my partner's G22 didn't choke once.
Failure2Stop
03-15-12, 23:39
Hmm.
What was the stoppage of the HK?
Looked like the trigger mech was frozen up, but I couldn't tell from the video.
Was the round that ejected when the slide was manually cycled live or spent?
Looks like the slide froze up afterward. I'm assuming that grit got into the locking block, but again, hard to tell. How did you finally get it to cycle/retract?
Usually the first few rounds will blow the mud/water out of the operating system, but doesn't look like that happened with your test.
Interested in clarifying details.
Put enough dirt in the wrong places of any gun and it will lock up like a metrosexual's buttocks in a state penitentiary.
That's funny, but I agree dirt in the wrong places will cause problems with any gun.
The whole event really made me question just how resiliant these pistols are. I don't think they can tolerate much resistance in the mechanism. Heavy grit and particulate pretty much siezed up the HK45 and the Beretta 96 Vertec. The M&P only had slightly fewer hiccups, which I attribute to the fact that it is striker fired and doesn't have the exposed hammer mechanism inside.
I am wondering why would this make you question the resilience of these pistols? You took two known quality and reliable pistols that you have never had a malfunction or any problems with and subject them to torture tests that any variable can happen to impede the function of these guns.
I understand that everyone wants guns that are as reliable and durable as possible but these are quality guns that have been proven by many(minus the s&w 9mm accuracy issues, which don't impede function). I would not lose any confidence in these guns if they have proven reliable in training and practice.
I would not lose any confidence in these guns if they have proven reliable in training and practice.
Unless you fall in a mud puddle during a gunfight :blink::lol:
Did you toss the USP in the mud, too? Just curious...
Unless you fall in a mud puddle during a gunfight :blink::lol:
I will trust that the Naval Special Warfare Command probably did a little more thorough testing then a mud puddle.
Why do people feel the need to "torture" test guns with proven designs that have been on the market for years if not decades? :blink:
I think guys would be much better off practicing with the weapon and developing a commanding proficiency with them, as opposed to dropping them in puddles.
RagweedZulu
03-16-12, 22:02
Why do people feel the need to "torture" test guns with proven designs that have been on the market for years if not decades? :blink:
I think guys would be much better off practicing with the weapon and developing a commanding proficiency with them, as opposed to dropping them in puddles.
Because as men, we want to be sure that the shit we own works. Especially when you're betting your life on it. Watching a guy on YouTube torture his gun doesn't solve anything for me. If mine don't run properly after normal abuse conditions, they won't get carried. In fact, they'll be sold off as soon as possible. Don't take company literature or uncorroborated tests as gospel. Test your own shit before you bet your ass on it.
I will trust that the Naval Special Warfare Command probably did a little more thorough testing then a mud puddle.
Of course they did. I don't think anyone ever suggested otherwise. I wrote that purely as a joke lol.
The fact is, all three guns failed after being submersed in the mud puddle. Does that mean that HK, S&W, and Beretta make crappy guns? Absolutely not. Is it something interesting to think about? Sure.
I think it's hilarious when people get all defensive when someone shows how gun XYZ failed during some test. Don't go throw away your HK because of it :-) It's just a simple unscientific homemade test that had an interesting result. Doesn't mean anyone is saying the guns suck
Because as men, we want to be sure that the shit we own works. Especially when you're betting your life on it. Watching a guy on YouTube torture his gun doesn't solve anything for me. If mine don't run properly after normal abuse conditions, they won't get carried. In fact, they'll be sold off as soon as possible. Don't take company literature or uncorroborated tests as gospel. Test your own shit before you bet your ass on it.
Until you induce problems or excessive wear based on the "test" and don't realize it until the weapon is actually needed.
What's a "normal" abuse condition anyway?
I wouldn't run my car w/o engine coolant and throw sand into the engine to know I could make a long trip.
How about shooting the thing as it was designed. Developing some skill, and through a few thousand rounds of ammunition and practice I think you'll have more than enough faith in the weapon.
But you guys are men...
Pour some water in the gas tank of a BMW M5 and see how that baby runs.
I understand that we want $900 pistols to run in adverse conditions but at some point, you will be able to break even the most finely tuned mechanical devices.
Clobbersauras
03-17-12, 11:51
I notice the OP didn't dunk the lights into the mud. Why not test out the lights?
I did that to my USP Tactical a few months ago minus the mud. I just dropped it in the dirt, slide open, magazine out and shake and baked it on the ground. Picked it up, the first press of the trigger was a no-go. The second went fine. Full magazine went boom no problems. BUT the gun would not decock after that. I sent it back to HK for a full cleaning and it came back fine.
Since then I haven't cared to toss my guns in the dirt. All it proved to me was that it worked fine and I should take an armorer's course sooner than later. Right now I'd rather shoot my guns with a very relaxed cleaning schedule. Like once every 3k rds.
But of that's what floats your boat, rock on. Thanks for posting.
BushmasterFanBoy
03-17-12, 13:57
Hmm.
What was the stoppage of the HK?
Looked like the trigger mech was frozen up, but I couldn't tell from the video.
Was the round that ejected when the slide was manually cycled live or spent?
Looks like the slide froze up afterward. I'm assuming that grit got into the locking block, but again, hard to tell. How did you finally get it to cycle/retract?
Usually the first few rounds will blow the mud/water out of the operating system, but doesn't look like that happened with your test.
Interested in clarifying details.
The first stoppage on the HK45 was a failure to go into battery which caused a failure to fire. Cycling the slide pulled out the un-spent round and then tapped the slide and put in a fresh round into the chamber. The pistol fired a few more rounds and then the slide became locked up and the trigger mechanism wouldn't function either.
Once I was able to get both my paws on the pistol I just used brute strength to retract the slide.
The gunk was so heavy that you can hear the metal megazine scrapping the small particulate aganist the inside of the magazine well when the megazine is pulled out of the HK45.
Oh and we didn't dunk the X300's because we figured we would ruin the lights. Our goal wasn't to damage or ruin the pistols. They have had many rounds through them so they have been well used. But like I said we didn't want to actually permanently ruin anything. We figured the X300's would be toast in water.
By the time we got to the USP we didn't figure like tossing it into the mud. The first three pistol were enough to clean out :D.
Overall an interesting experience and it certainly let us know that these pistols do have limitations just like anything else mechanical. Mud and heavy grit can cause a pistol to fail.
RagweedZulu
03-17-12, 14:00
Until you induce problems or excessive wear based on the "test" and don't realize it until the weapon is actually needed.
What's a "normal" abuse condition anyway?
I wouldn't run my car w/o engine coolant and throw sand into the engine to know I could make a long trip.
How about shooting the thing as it was designed. Developing some skill, and through a few thousand rounds of ammunition and practice I think you'll have more than enough faith in the weapon.
But you guys are men...
Well, SA, I don't throw my new guns in dirt before I carry them. But if they can't digest several hundred rounds, they're gone. Anyone who takes a brand new shiny gun of ANY make out of the box and tosses it in the holster for CCW is asking for probs.
And of course, let's make a stupid comparison like a car engine. I thought the kids hung out over on GT.
Well, SA, I don't throw my new guns in dirt before I carry them. But if they can't digest several hundred rounds, they're gone. Anyone who takes a brand new shiny gun of ANY make out of the box and tosses it in the holster for CCW is asking for probs.
And of course, let's make a stupid comparison like a car engine. I thought the kids hung out over on GT.
As BP said, you've got to define reasonable standards of performance.
We ALL want the gun that is going to run after being dropped into the center of the earth but the fact is, its impossible to have a gun that will run 100% of the time.
For MY uses, i would not regard a gun being dropped into a mud bath as a reasonable standard of performance. It is a machine, it is GOING to have issues digesting foreign materials and still operating normally.
Some guns are better than others but HOW do we qualify that?
I have done some pretty dumb things to a G22 i used to own, things that i would never, ever experience as a ccw holder but the gun still ran. I never really mention these tests as a benchmark of performance as i regard other things as being far more important such as:
1. Average life cycle of parts.
2. This ties into #1 ie suggested maintenance schedule of parts
3. Ability to run dirty, i dont clean my guns, ccw pieces included as often as i probably should.
4. Ability to digest a variety of ammo, ball, hollow point, all manner of bullet weights included.
5. Mean time between failures that are not magazine related. Light strikes are a no go, type 3 malfunctions are a deal breaker.
If the gun can run, it is good enough for me.
I think we take for granted the amount of "common" knowledge out there. For the most part, we all know that MOST modern polymer guns run and run fairly well. This is due to the fact that they're mass produced, sloppy guns. Throw a three thousand dollar "hard fit" baer into a mud puddle and its probably not going to run. Throw a rattle trap Glock into a mud puddle and it will most likely run. Still, most likely is the key term here and a bad one at that since it offers no guarantees.
Bottom line, its a machine, it is going to fail at some point in either a clear sunny skies situation or a torrential downpour. Shrug. I would rather shoot my guns and gauge their performance on known quantities rather than hope my gun will run if it is dropped into a random mud puddle because someone on the internet said it would.
i have to agree with some of the others. how is dunk, scrub around in mud, flip, dunk and scrub again a "normal" or realistic circumstance?!
I can understand if you dropped it... let it sit for a couple seconds and picked it up and went at it(much more realistic circumstance). and unless i'm in some kind of wild firefight in the mud with no cover or time to properly clear the weapon before firing it(1 in a 1000000000000 chance of ever happening) i call it an unrealistic wish on any level.
if at all possible and you aren't "taking fire" you should have more than enough time to pick it up, eject mag, shake off mag, lock slide, shake gun and rack slide multiple times to clear as much gunk as possible before slamming mag back in and firing..
Well, SA, I don't throw my new guns in dirt before I carry them. But if they can't digest several hundred rounds, they're gone. Anyone who takes a brand new shiny gun of ANY make out of the box and tosses it in the holster for CCW is asking for probs.
And of course, let's make a stupid comparison like a car engine. I thought the kids hung out over on GT.
I thought tools that thought they were hard hung out on TOS.
Don't kid yourself. If you can't shoot the thing with speed and accuracy, what difference does it make if it runs dirty?
This thread is full of gun bubba. Not one of these guns tested are new to the market, or does the testing reveal any kind of substantial information.
I'd be more impressed with someone posting a group they shot or a video of them running a drill quickly and accurately then mud puddle droppings.
RagweedZulu
03-17-12, 22:28
It's pretty clear to me the OP didn't intend for his fun little test to become an ACTUAL torture test. So all the talk about how could this happen in real life is sorta overkill anyway.
I wouldn't "torture" test any of my guns, but they're going to be broken in before they are carried. Guaranteed.
Real life scenario: I was at a Tac Rifle Course in very hot, dirty conditions. My shooting partner was prone putting rounds on 100 yard steel. I looked over and noticed his Kimber Pro Carry was scooping sand up the beaver tail and under the hammer as he changed firing positions and loaded etc. I was wearing a G23 that day. It didn't scoop any dirt, but it got pretty dirty. It worked all day long. We both quit carrying 1911s except for in-town use. That's a real life torture test that measures something that actually COULD happen. Much more practical than throwing sand in your gun or freezing it in a block of ice.
RagweedZulu
03-17-12, 22:30
I thought tools that thought they were hard hung out on TOS. .
And there folks, is your mature Internet commando. You've read about him in books, you've seen him in movies...
BushmasterFanBoy
03-17-12, 23:03
It's pretty clear to me the OP didn't intend for his fun little test to become an ACTUAL torture test. So all the talk about how could this happen in real life is sorta overkill anyway.
Thank you. That's why I put "Torture Test" in quotes.
And there folks, is your mature Internet commando. You've read about him in books, you've seen him in movies...
Does that make you the pot or the kettle? You started throwing the tough guy lingo. I have no problem if you want to exercise your right to free speech and get a little sharp, just don't try to call someone else out for the same.
EzGoingKev
03-18-12, 09:51
I read the first post and see a guy curious about what how his pistols would do after thrown in some dirt. They didn't fair so well.
Unfortunately for him that he picked two of the sacred cows, the HK and the M&P. The rest of the thread I is a bunch of butt hurt sycophants upset because the Mighty Casey struck out.
If the pistols had done great, would the test be considered BS or would you all be rejoicing in your choice to shoot/carry brand X? If the OP had run a Ruger, Caracal, and CZ this thread would have been all "that is why I shoot/carry an HK/M&P/Glock".
If the same test had been performed by <insert celebrity ex-military gun shooter's name> then it have been soaked up as dogma, pondered over, theorized, and been spread all over the internet.
My only "issue" with the test was that they didn't have a Glock to try.
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