View Full Version : Weird Malfunction
So a while back I was at an Appleseed shoot (yeah, boo hiss...), and I had a really odd malfunction with my AR and one of my Pmags.
I went to reload, and somehow the magazine slipped past the mag release and got jammed up in the magwell pinned up against the bolt release. Took a good bit of tugging to get it out.
I didn't notice any exterior problems with the magazine- it was practically new.
And apparently the mag release on the gun seems to be working fine.
What the heck happened? I have never heard of anyone getting the magazine jammed into the gun past the release.....
I don't think I could even replicate the issue.
The only two things I can think of is either A) I somehow managed to depress the release when sticking the mag in (God only knows how)
Or B) I was a little frustrated at that point and smacked the magazine in a little harder than necessary, although I'm still not sure how that would have forced it past the release.
I meant to put that Pmag aside, but it got mixed up with all the other gear in the car.
Rifle is a DD M4V3, stock working parts
Thoughts?
Your magazine release is either out of adjustment or there could be an issue with the magwell.
As a default that magazine could be FUBAR. I would make an attempt to replicate it.
So a while back I was at an Appleseed shoot (yeah, boo hiss...), and I had a really odd malfunction with my AR and one of my Pmags.
I went to reload, and somehow the magazine slipped past the mag release and got jammed up in the magwell pinned up against the bolt release. Took a good bit of tugging to get it out.
I didn't notice any exterior problems with the magazine- it was practically new.
And apparently the mag release on the gun seems to be working fine.
What the heck happened? I have never heard of anyone getting the magazine jammed into the gun past the release.....
I don't think I could even replicate the issue.
The only two things I can think of is either A) I somehow managed to depress the release when sticking the mag in (God only knows how)
Or B) I was a little frustrated at that point and smacked the magazine in a little harder than necessary, although I'm still not sure how that would have forced it past the release.
I meant to put that Pmag aside, but it got mixed up with all the other gear in the car.
Rifle is a DD M4V3, stock working parts
Thoughts?
My money is on "B". If the mag had no obvious defects, then the probability that you smacked the bottom a little too hard (which you did not need to do anyhow) is high.
If the mag does not insert and lock on an open bolt easily (absolutely no need to smack the bottom - and greatly increases the odds of having a round pop out and causing another malfunction) then ditch the mag.
If you can not push a full mag hard enough on a closed bolt to overcome the spring tension, then download the mag one round or grow stronger.
Nothing like a group but chewin' from a professional who's been there, done that and paid the price to open your eyes.
If all your mags exhibit the same problems, then look to your lower.
I imagine this could also be caused by one of those oversized mag release buttons that is extended out enough that you could push the mag catch bar out far enough to allow the little overtravel stop "bump" on the mag to slip right under it. I think I'm describing this correctly.
I think the latest pmag has a ledge molded in at the back to stop this sort of thing from possibly happening.
Bolt was open on the load or closed?
"grow stronger" is a red herring. seating a magazine has nothing to do with strength, and if he DOES have a mechanical issue with either the magazine or the gun it will only make it worse.
OP, this is one reason we do not "slap" the bottom of the magazine. Have I seen this happen before? Yes, several times, and every single time it has been a case of slapping the bottom of the magazine on an open-bolt reload.
Push/pull. Push up on the magazine to seat the magazine and, if you can, listen for the click, pull down on the magazine to ensure that it is seated. If the magazines you are using require you to download by one or two to be able to reliably do this in all situations and in all shooting positions, do it. I download GI and Lancer AWM mags and load Pmags to 30. There is also nothing wrong with this and no need for "consistency". Whether the gun runs dry on 28 rounds or 30 the solution is the same thing. On rare instances in a competition setting I'll top off my first GI mag to 30 and load on an open bolt if there is a strategic benefit to doing so and the rules of that match allows.
Also, off topic, but anyone that gives you a boo/hiss for attending an Appleseed shoot is a ****ing idiot. I've never been to one myself but it's on my list of things to do and I have a lot of respect for what those guys are doing.
Sorry rob_s. Grow stronger is what I tell people to do when they can't get a thing done. They start trying again, and the body mechanics take over to do it right long before the muscle builds. The subconscious picks up on little things like incorrect angle of approach.
Now I have to go Google Appleseed - evidently it is not just an Anime movie.
ETA - There is that "hole in my skills" course that I should have taken, and will take if it comes locally.
Sorry rob_s. Grow stronger is what I tell people to do when they can't get a thing done. They start trying again, and the body mechanics take over to do it right long before the muscle builds. The subconscious picks up on little things like incorrect angle of approach.
Well if the OP was loading on an open bolt it has nothing to do with the situation at hand anyway.
I have yet to come across an AR-related issue that is actually related to strength, as evidenced by the number of small-statured females I see out-perform alleged he-men, not to mention the one-armed dude I know that outshoots 99% of the two-handed guys that come out to my old events. which isn't to say it's necessarily a bad thing to be stronger as it will allow you to go harder, faster, longer with the right technique, but I haven't seen a case where it solved the problem, or a problem that a "weaker" shooter had that a stronger shooter didn't. (excluding fatigue over time)
I think it's a cop-out, and I'm tired of seeing it repeated as some kind of truism. Fight/work smarter, not harder.
Animal_Mother556
03-18-12, 07:41
I witnessed a similar issue a couple of weeks ago while shooting with some cop friends. The guy was using a Pmag...new manufacture. The magazine over inserted (on an open bolt) and locked everything up. We had to pull perty hard to get it out. The rifle was a RRA upper and lower. We could not get it to happen with GI mags, but every newer manufactured Pmag would do this. It was completely replicate-able (not a word...).
Am I remembering correctly that I heard the newer Pmags are prone to this? Being able to "over insert" them?
This is why yo don't "smack" the magazine. Push, pull. Never slap the bottom of the mag.
We had somebody do the same thing in a class last year with a USGI Mag. It took 2 people to get the magazine out.
Well if the OP was loading on an open bolt it has nothing to do with the situation at hand anyway.
I have yet to come across an AR-related issue that is actually related to strength, as evidenced by the number of small-statured females I see out-perform alleged he-men, not to mention the one-armed dude I know that outshoots 99% of the two-handed guys that come out to my old events. which isn't to say it's necessarily a bad thing to be stronger as it will allow you to go harder, faster, longer with the right technique, but I haven't seen a case where it solved the problem, or a problem that a "weaker" shooter had that a stronger shooter didn't. (excluding fatigue over time)
I think it's a cop-out, and I'm tired of seeing it repeated as some kind of truism. Fight/work smarter, not harder.
Come on folks. Reading comprehension. Try looking at the sentence before the one you are nit-picking;
" If you can not push a full mag hard enough on a closed bolt to overcome the spring tension, then download the mag one round or grow stronger."
This is a perfectly reasonable statement.
Alright- ran some tests today.
First off- for the original, the bolt was open. My bad- forgot to mention that. I had finished firing the rounds in mag 1, bolt was locked back as I inserted the problem magazine.
Also, fwiw, I do not have a problem inserting a full magazine on a closed bolt with either a rifle or hangun.
So I got the rifle out today, locked the bolt back, inserted [empty] mag in the normal way. Then I slapped the hell out of it. No result.
I did manage to replicate the problem in two way though:
1) With bolt locked back, inserted magazine, depressed release button and smack. Perfect replication- took like 5 minutes to get the mag out. Now granted- duh. of course it's going to do it this way.
2) Insert magazine about halfway, then smack really hard. Perfect replication again.
I think this must be what happened, as I had mentioned originally. I got a little frustrated during the mag change- one of "those" days shooting- and I must have smacked it harder than I thought. And I can't for the life of me figure out how I would have manage to depress the mag release at the same time anyway.
Yes, I am QUITE aware smacking the magaine in is NOT the correct way to do it, and fwiw I hadn't up till that point- like I said, one of those days. I will assign myself 15 minutes of flogging as penance.:D
Now I did manage to get a partial replication another way- I took the magazine and beer-canned it into the gun as hard as I could. There was a slight "slide-click" and by looking at the opposite side of the magazine release (the bar side) you could see it was partially pushed out. However, it didn't seem to stay in this position and would slide back down to where it's supposed to be with minimal effort.
I decided to re-try this method with a new magazine (Pmag) as the one I was currently using had the catch cutout pretty much trashed from the previous two replications. I also dug out a second rifle with a Spikes lower to compare.
Using the new magazine I beercanned it hard again. On both lowers there was still a slight "s-lick", but I watched the mag release when I shoved it in, and there was only slight movement in it. So I'm assuming everything's normal with the lower.
The new Pmags as seen at SHOT have a stop to prevent this.
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