View Full Version : High lubricity bolt/carrier reducing amt of oil needed?
Caskalefan
03-20-12, 10:32
I've read sales propaganda from several companies touting their AR bolts and carriers treated with exotic finishes that greatly increase lubricity, to the point where very little oil is needed.
Are their claims founded in reality? It would make sense that different coatings could affect operation, but in the real world does it make a difference?
If so it would seem the extra 100 dollars or so would easily be worth it.
Failure2Stop
03-20-12, 10:40
I had a FailZero bolt/BCG in an upper of mine.
It was not extensively fired, but the coating did seem to work pretty well. I still lubed it after discovering that carbon would still stick to it if it was dry, though that accumulation would take longer than a normal parkerized bolt.
Still, one of the major areas that requires lubrication is the gas rings, and they already ride inside a chrome lined chamber. Another is accumulation of brass shavings and gunk in the ejector. Both of those places benefit from lube.
If so it would seem the extra 100 dollars or so would easily be worth it.
I dunno, $100 will buy a lot of oil that can be used across several guns.
Caskalefan
03-20-12, 11:16
I dunno, $100 will buy a lot of oil that can be used across several guns.
True, but you also have to factor in the extra cleaning time.
Plus I would assume it would be more reliable as well.
Not sure if reliability would factor too heavily.
Granted some small areas may have a modicum less friction, but as Failure2Stop noted, carbon will still build up.
For an experiment a while back we did a BCG, FCG and upper receiver interior fully in molybendum and ran it with zero lube til failure.
This occured at 225 rounds and by 230 rounds required mortaring to extract.
However, the failure wasn't due to things being as dry as a popcorn fart but carbon buildup in the bolt piston cylinder, which is already chromium treated for lubricity.
Externally, the carrier nor bolt lugs had any issue and still slid along just fine.
In the grander scheme, coating the 'outside' of the carrier or bolt likely has a very minute effect on function.
The carrier fits (comparatively) loose in the receiver and has an actually quite small contact footprint so coating to reduce friction on a part that has mabe 5% to 10% actual physical contact with the reciever is not something that's going to be a super benifit.
Same for the bolt. The face of the lugs may have a small contact with the barrel extension on the way in and full contact on thier back side once locked, but otherwise they are pretty free to travel if the cam is doing its job properly.
The small shoulder aft of the head and fore of the rings creates a bit of friction, but that rides in the chromed portion of the carrier to begin with and also has a slightly loose fit so really shouldn't benifit from extra coatings.
I'm not certain if the bolt tail rides in chrome or not but would presume so based on limited understanding of how the coating is applied.
Cleaning wise its going to require that and oiling regardless and filth level I imagine would be more relevant to volume between cleanings, not how much oil is put on.
For myself, I see no more value in putting a special coating on the BCG beyond what is already there than there would be in chroming the entirely of the upper receiver so that the pivot pin, takedown pin and dust cover worked with less resistance.
Purely my take on it though and I'm certain others will have differing opinions on the matter.
It still all boils down to what an individual wants or desires and to what expenditure they will go to achive them.
restfortheweary
03-20-12, 12:22
Not sure about function benefits, but I love the ease of cleaning. Especially when shooting suppressed.
I've seen a lot of hype, but I've never seen any concrete evidence that it does or doesn't significantly increase reliability.
An AR is a machine of sorts... It needs lube...
Would you run your car or truck with out oil. Why not??
There are new industrial high-performance coatings being tested and developed that are superior to any offerings currently on the market. They too require lubrication.
Most of the current offerings on firearms parts are older technologies and are relatively soft. Even the latest coatings (outside of ceramics) are designed to use lube.
An AR is a machine of sorts... It needs lube...
Would you run your car or truck with out oil. Why not??
There are new industrial high-performance coatings being tested and developed that are superior to any offerings currently on the market. They too require lubrication.
Most of the current offerings on firearms parts are older technologies and are relatively soft. Even the latest coatings (outside of ceramics) are designed to use lube.
That may be true now, but I highly doubt it will be always true.
The_War_Wagon
03-20-12, 13:41
Marketing geniuses don't shoot my rifle; I shoot my rifle. MY rifles require lube.
I owned a POF-415 for a few years. Nice rifle, wonderful chroming job on the BCG and the chamber - the only thing smoother, was the marketing propaganda that said, "NEVER NEEDS OIL!" :rolleyes: I ran it wet anyways.
I ran it with lube in July - I ran it at a PA/OH/WV group instructional session in 9 degree weather in January, with lube. And before any serious course/instructional work, my motto is, "Lube until DRIPPING... then add a little more." ;)
Come the day when you'll REALLY NEED your AR, there is NO calling "timeout," while you add the lube that should've been there to start with...
Failure2Stop
03-20-12, 13:45
An AR is a machine of sorts... It needs lube...
Would you run your car or truck with out oil. Why not??
There are new industrial high-performance coatings being tested and developed that are superior to any offerings currently on the market. They too require lubrication.
Most of the current offerings on firearms parts are older technologies and are relatively soft. Even the latest coatings (outside of ceramics) are designed to use lube.
I have recently discussed this with bo-hoss.
His credentials as far as industrial coatings in adverse conditions are very good.
When people of his caliber discuss cutting edge technology in friction and corrosion resistance, I listen.
Grease Monkey
03-20-12, 13:48
An AR is a machine of sorts... It needs lube...
Would you run your car or truck with out oil. Why not??
There are new industrial high-performance coatings being tested and developed that are superior to any offerings currently on the market. They too require lubrication.
Most of the current offerings on firearms parts are older technologies and are relatively soft. Even the latest coatings (outside of ceramics) are designed to use lube.
Coming from the mechanical industry, I agree 100%!
My experiences with nickle boron (a sample size of one, mind you):
I can run the rifle dry for short periods with no issues. I never really went for more then 200-ish rounds trying it, though. Never really had the time to see how far it would go without failing. I typically did keep everything lightly lubed. With it lightly lubed, I managed to shoot 1200 rounds in a single day with no stoppages. No cleaning was performed or extra lube added in the that period.
The bolt carrier assembly/receiver/barrel were Rock River, ammo was a mix of Wolf and Tula (mostly Tula). It was cleaned at the end of the day, and while everything was significantly dirty, it still seamed to be pretty slick with the very small amount of oil remaining.
That being said, I only did it (and will only continue to do so...) because I can get my parts coated for pretty cheap. If I was paying current market prices, I wouldn't bother. I do like it for the extra 'insurance', though.
machinegunbob
03-22-12, 09:20
Any moving parts need lube no matter what kind of finish you have on your BC.
SomeOtherGuy
03-22-12, 09:56
My sample size is very limited experience with a ST NiB coated BCG. The coating is definitely slick, however what I don't like is that it seems like oil does not cling to it or get absorbed on the surface like it does with bare steel or phosphate. It seems like oil runs off to a greater extent in storage than on more basic coatings and I end up actually have to oil the parts more. I could be wrong, my experience is limited, but so far that's my impression.
Marketing geniuses don't shoot my rifle; I shoot my rifle. MY rifles require lube.
I owned a POF-415 for a few years. Nice rifle, wonderful chroming job on the BCG and the chamber - the only thing smoother, was the marketing propaganda that said, "NEVER NEEDS OIL!" :rolleyes: I ran it wet anyways.
I ran it with lube in July - I ran it at a PA/OH/WV group instructional session in 9 degree weather in January, with lube. And before any serious course/instructional work, my motto is, "Lube until DRIPPING... then add a little more." ;)
Come the day when you'll REALLY NEED your AR, there is NO calling "timeout," while you add the lube that should've been there to start with...
^^^This is one of the most logical and best responses I have ever read on this site!!
Running a couple of hundred or so rounds through a dry AR is not really an of indicator of performance. 200 consecutive shots fired is aprox 200 seconds of run time. 200 seconds = about 3.3 minutes. A car engine will run for 3-5 minutes without oil....Anything after that results in catastrophic results.
Some of the new technologies being tested (with lube) increase surface hardness (harder than industrial hard chrome) greatly reduce friction and allow cleaning (maintenance) with a paper towel.
M4C's very own Failure2Stop will be involved in some testing in the near future.
I have a hard-chromed BCG and an FZ NiB'd BCG, both show no noticable reliability over a standard Colt BCG.
-Both the Chrome and the NiB carriers only slightly improved after lots of polishing (Dremel, felt wheel, and Flitz).
I recently cleaned a Colt BCG that had over 2K rounds on it through just adding oil. Covered in sludge, it seemed to cycle smoother than the previously mentioned coated BCG's (wet and dry).
Also, my gas rings always last longer in my wetter AR's.
Being a lefty, I know my gun is properly lubed when my right forearm is being sprayed with black slimy shit.
Consider changing lubes if your BCG is slinging it all over you/your arm.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Consider changing lubes if your BCG is slinging it all over you/your arm.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
I use Slip 2000 at the moment and have no plans to switch. It's a result of the amount used, not necessarily the viscosity.
True, but you also have to factor in the extra cleaning time.
Dude, if cleaning your AR takes you long enough to consider a faster way I really think you should look around some threads here. It is quick, 5-10 minutes for a CL gun, if that.
Marketing geniuses don't shoot my rifle; I shoot my rifle. MY rifles require lube.
I owned a POF-415 for a few years. Nice rifle, wonderful chroming job on the BCG and the chamber - the only thing smoother, was the marketing propaganda that said, "NEVER NEEDS OIL!" :rolleyes: I ran it wet anyways.
I ran it with lube in July - I ran it at a PA/OH/WV group instructional session in 9 degree weather in January, with lube. And before any serious course/instructional work, my motto is, "Lube until DRIPPING... then add a little more." ;)
Come the day when you'll REALLY NEED your AR, there is NO calling "timeout," while you add the lube that should've been there to start with...
And it still locked right the **** up...
I use Slip 2000 at the moment and have no plans to switch. It's a result of the amount used, not necessarily the viscosity.
This^^^
As they say, "If it ain't slingin and spittin, it ain't lubed"
Slip 2000 is good stuff...
I recently came across a product from Fayetville,NC called "EEl Snot". It is pretty impressive stuff as well.
As they say, "If it ain't slingin and spittin, it ain't lubed"
I have always like "it will spit it off if it doesn't want it"
I have always like "it will spit it off if it doesn't want it"
I kind of like that saying!!
When it spits it off, I would reason that all of the critical surfaces have received ample lubrication.
I used to have a fully chromed Bolt Carrier Group and the only difference I noticed with a regular one is that it stays clean a little longer and it is a little easier to clean once it gets dirty. Reliability wise I did not notice any difference. In my opinion, like many have said, I will spend the price difference in more oil or more ammo.
The_War_Wagon
03-22-12, 16:38
And it still locked right the **** up...
And that's ONE reason why I don't own it anymore! :D
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