Firing 45 degree tilted full time?

[Koshinn]

I was thinking about weapon ergonomics after (literally, with no sling) carrying an M16A2 for two weeks. I noticed that whenever instructors demonstrate using a weapon with their hands, they either do the two "blades" or they just raise their hands in a boxer stance, but with support hand further forward. I started to wonder why they did that instead of mimicking holding an M16/M4, but when I tried, I realized that was much less comfortable than holding my hands with wrists tilted about 45 degrees inward.

That got me thinking about 3 gunners and other shooters that sometimes mount a 45 degree offset Aimpoint T-1 in addition to their longer-ranged optic on the standard top rail.

So with that in mind, and assuming a right handed shooter, has anyone mounted a VFG on their left rail such that you're holding your AR in almost a boxer stance, then utilizing a 45 degree offset mount or sights (i.e. http://www.knightarmco.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=96) to run it tilted full time?

I think a few things to consider are the cheek weld, placement of stock in your shoulder, and weak-side transitions. Also, slinging it with a vfg on the side of the rail could be annoying/painful after a while. You also wouldn't need to tilt your weapon to see what type of malfunction happened in the ejection port, which means if you check your ejection port every time you reload, you actually reload a tiny tiny tiny bit quicker.

Thoughts?

[Zhurdan]

Offset is going to suck for Low probability shots. Height over bore just became a two way problem rather than a one way problem, IMO.

[Failure2Stop]

It would seriously hinder my ability to use the weapon from the support side, as well as about 2 dozen other tactical tasks.
Beside that, it's an answer to a question nobody asks.
Get a few thousand rounds under your belt under the guidance of a decent instructor. See if you still think it's a necessity.

[Koshinn]

Height over bore just became a two way problem rather than a one way problem, IMO.

Can you elaborate on that a little?


It would seriously hinder my ability to use the weapon from the support side, as well as about 2 dozen other tactical tasks.

I was thinking about support side shooting and the inelegant solution is to run another VFG on the right rail (this is getting ridiculous) and another optic on the left side 45 degree. Perhaps BUIS on the left side 45 degree and a T-1 on the right side 45 degree so if the optic fails, you can switch to irons on the left side. The VFGs can be something like stubby grips to reduce weight. And as a bonus, they could help with barricade support.

Can you explain the other tactical tasks it would hinder? I'm not exactly a proponent of shooting tilted full time, but it was something that kept my mind busy for a while and I'm trying to figure out exactly why it's a bad idea.



Beside that, it's an answer to a question nobody asks.
Get a few thousand rounds under your belt under the guidance of a decent instructor. See if you still think it's a necessity.
Necessity, no, not at all. But it might be a valid alternate shooting style? Maybe not? I really don't know, I've never even run 45 degree offset optics or sights.

I feel like if someone learned to shoot one way, like the aforementioned few thousand rounds guided by an instructor, it becomes muscle memory to shoot one way... sort of like how many/some people who grew up shooting weaver for pistols still think it's the best thing since sliced bread. I'm definitely not saying shooting 45 degrees full time on an AR is the next isosceles stance, but I like to keep an open mind. I don't personally like the attitude of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" because then we'd never improve ourselves :)

But I think it actually is sort of an answer to a question people ask, that being weapon ergonomics. Items like the Magpul AFG and K grip (and new BCM pistol grip, etc) are designed to be more ergonomic in certain shooting styles.

[Failure2Stop]

Knock yourself out man.

[Zhurdan]

Can you elaborate on that a little?



Do you understand what height over bore means? Asking because if you do, then you'd realize that you just turned a single axis elevation problem into a two axis problem. You not only have to account for the height over bore of your sites vertically, but also on a 45 degree angle.

[Koshinn]

Do you understand what height over bore means? Asking because if you do, then you'd realize that you just turned a single axis elevation problem into a two axis problem. You not only have to account for the height over bore of your sites vertically, but also on a 45 degree angle.

Oh now I see what you're saying. Don't the 45 degree offset mounts and such already account for that? I mean it is more difficult to vertically align your sights with your bore if the weapon is tilted and you're using a red dot because there's less physical feedback to the tilt of your weapon when everything isn't lined up like a standard optics setup.

[GTifosi]

If both wrists tilt inward at 45 degrees, you'd need the VFG at 90 degrees.

[MegademiC]

The thought crossed my mind before, but I knew it would be stupid to actually do. It may be more comfortable, but I would bet $ to peso that it wouldnt improve times, and may actually make them worse due to the complexity factor.

[BGREID]

I was thinking the same with the Dueck Defence offset sights, it is a more natural position and the sights are over the barrel when turned to use them. Even some LE are going to them instead of the usual backup sights, especially if you have to remove optics to use them. I don't use a verticle for grip as I find them awkward.

[Koshinn]

If both wrists tilt inward at 45 degrees, you'd need the VFG at 90 degrees.

Yeah, the vfg would be on the left rail like I said.

[jonconsiglio]

This is the only one I can think of…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q362H-xg0ZA

[Campbell]

^^^^ Thats the craziest thing I've ever seen !:D

[Axcelea]

The two hands also oppose each other so when they are both put center line it actually serves to increase support when using the weapon. Its kind of like the push pull method of using a shotgun vs just holding it up where if your grips were in a neutral hand position then your more just holding the gun up with nothing no opposing forces to give stability.

[RichDC2]

" I'm trying to figure out exactly why it's a bad idea"
The AR15 was not designed that way.
3 gunning is a game.
Have fun!