View Full Version : Help me choose an 9mm SMG.
I bought my first select fire weapon last year: a Colt M-16A1. It's a great weapon and definitely easy to maintain and obtain replacement parts. Now I'm looking for a 9mm SMG for: indoor use, a different flavor; sound suppresion; and reduced ammo costs. I am looking at three models: H&K MP5 (~16K), UZI (~7-8K), and the MAC type machine pistols (~4K). I've shot them all and all were fun. The H&K was the best. However, I am not sure which one would be the easiest to maintain (i.e. availability of parts & mags and ease of me doing it myself). Any suggestions and any suggestions on books/references that are worthwhile to obtain for each weapon type? Thanks.
Reagans Rascals
03-24-12, 12:25
of all, the UZI will have the least accessible parts chain.
The MAC is ok if you just want to get your foot in the door of NFA's, but I really wouldn't use that thing for HD..... those things were designed to clear elevators.... once the doors open just hold the trigger down and spray everything inside until there's nothing left alive.... the rate of fire is just too high to use in an HD role, IMO.
The MP5 is the only logical, and smart choice of the bunch, however like you state previously... price is an issue.
However, if I were you and were seriously considering dropping coin on one, I would purchase a registered auto sear.... I think Autoweapons has one for 15.5k, then you are free to use it how you see fit (any HK weapon), rather than just a registered receiver MP5 where you are stuck with just that weapon....
HK MP5 would be the choice ! UZI is just like an AK 47 in the submachine gun world!. Cheap in price and the parts and the way it works is simple. wiki it!!! good luck buddy hope you find somthing you enjoy!! .
Im a Colt SMG fan, Id love to have one with a flat top upper and a T-1. I like the MP5, but not so much the cost associated with it. MAC11 with Lage upper is probably what I would get.
Reagans Rascals
03-24-12, 12:45
Im a Colt SMG fan...
Actually that's not a bad idea... a Colt SMG is another option as well.... OP since you have a select-fire lower, just purchase a 9mm upper and mag block... and there you go.... probably a more viable platform than the MP5, for about 1/20th the cost.....
Actually that's not a bad idea... a Colt SMG is another option as well.... OP since you have a select-fire lower, just purchase a 9mm upper and mag block... and there you go.... probably a more viable platform than the MP5, for about 1/20th the cost.....
this is what I was thinking too ,You just need to get a upper and Block all one weapon . the Colt 9MM is a good platform
A WW2 Mp40 can be found for about 9-11k. Neat piece of history too.
Oops, just saw the sound suppressor part
Cheapest way to go. Here is mine; integrally suppressed.
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I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?zxgt3v
I bought my first select fire weapon last year: a Colt M-16A1. It's a great weapon and definitely easy to maintain and obtain replacement parts. Now I'm looking for a 9mm SMG for: indoor use, a different flavor; sound suppresion; and reduced ammo costs. I am looking at three models: H&K MP5 (~16K), UZI (~7-8K), and the MAC type machine pistols (~4K). I've shot them all and all were fun. The H&K was the best. However, I am not sure which one would be the easiest to maintain (i.e. availability of parts & mags and ease of me doing it myself). Any suggestions and any suggestions on books/references that are worthwhile to obtain for each weapon type? Thanks.
I own all of them.
For practical applications the MP5 is the best, followed by the Uzi and then the Mac 10.
For long term serviceability the Uzi is best, followed by the Mac 10 and then the MP5.
There are many problems related to "transferable" MP5s which are all conversions that began life as a HK94, there are no pre68 factory imports. The most reliable are probably the registered trigger box conversions done by DLO as they use factory MP5 sears and sear trip levers. The next best option is the registered receiver conversions which use factory swing down trigger packs. Registered sear conversions, even the best ones like Qualified, use a non factory setup that can easily result in timing problems. These are also all friction sear setups vs. factory roller sear setups.
Uzis also come in a variety of flavors from registered bolt to registered receiver conversions but these conversions are a lot more forgivable in terms of performance issues than HK94 to MP5 conversions. The ability to swap bolts and barrels without tools means you can probably run an Uzi for centuries. The main drawback of the Uzi is it's weight.
Mac 10s are of course factory machine guns with the ergonomics of a brick, a flimsy folding stock and a excessively high cyclic rate. Many of the problems of the Mac 10 can be corrected with LAGE uppers but they still leave a bit to be desired. They have the advantage of being available in greater numbers and thus more affordable.
of all, the UZI will have the least accessible parts chain.
How do you come up with that? SARCO has had complete Uzi parts kits for as long as I can remember and still do.
KalashniKEV
03-24-12, 15:29
My SMG is a MAC, but if I were you I'd pick up a 9mm upper, block of your choice, and an SWR Octane.
Use the $$,$$$ you saved on ammo and BOOM... you're in business.
I like my 9mm AR better than my AT-94P or my M-11/9 + Lage anyway.
I own all of them.
For practical applications the MP5 is the best, followed by the Uzi and then the Mac 10.
For long term serviceability the Uzi is best, followed by the Mac 10 and then the MP5.
There are many problems related to "transferable" MP5s which are all conversions that began life as a HK94, there are no pre68 factory imports. The most reliable are probably the registered trigger box conversions done by DLO as they use factory MP5 sears and sear trip levers. The next best option is the registered receiver conversions which use factory swing down trigger packs. Registered sear conversions, even the best ones like Qualified, use a non factory setup that can easily result in timing problems. These are also all friction sear setups vs. factory roller sear setups.
Uzis also come in a variety of flavors from registered bolt to registered receiver conversions but these conversions are a lot more forgivable in terms of performance issues than HK94 to MP5 conversions. The ability to swap bolts and barrels without tools means you can probably run an Uzi for centuries. The main drawback of the Uzi is it's weight.
Mac 10s are of course factory machine guns with the ergonomics of a brick, a flimsy folding stock and a excessively high cyclic rate. Many of the problems of the Mac 10 can be corrected with LAGE uppers but they still leave a bit to be desired. They have the advantage of being available in greater numbers and thus more affordable.
The HK was by far the most ergonomic and smooth gun. Price is acceptable. However, the myriad of factory standard and non-standard configurations regarding the FCG & parts and potential gunsmithing expertise (a la 1911) got me concerned. Though the UZI was not as handy nor as customizable, mags are readily available. It also looked simple on the outside to maintain myself. The M10/11 type guns were on the list because of the Lage uppers and it can be customized. Any similar custom options for the UZI? As for the a Colt SMG: it is still the same size as my Colt M16 with a 10.5 inch upper and I still want a dedicated .556 gun.
If you have your heart set on a dedicated SMG in 9, I would go with the MP5. That is the Cadillac of 9mm sub guns. If you want a shooter as opposed to a safe queen as an investment, get a sear gun. This way you can grow your collection with several hosts, all the way to belt-fed, as time and money allows. You can buy several clones for the price of a genuine HK host. That being said, do your homework; some clones have reliability issues. I just sold my genuine MP5 with Qulaified sear. With the cash I got from that, I was able to buy several other SMG's including a Vector MP5 which runs just as well.
We still have a few MP5s left in the arsenal, I've shot the UZI plenty, the MAC's are a joke, designed as a drop behind enemy lines, arm the opposition disposable insurgency weapon. I have never been a fan of the Colt SMG, a cheap answer to a question no one asked. If you are serious about getting an NFA full auto SMG then the MP5 is the only way to go, unless you can get access to some of the new B&T's.
I also own all three, an all German MP5K-PDW with registered DLO trigger frame, Vector fullsize Uzi, and Cobray M11.
Of the three the mp5k-PDW is the one that comes to the range 100% of the time. With an 80 deg locking piece the ROF is perfect. It is the Rolex of SMGs in my opinion. Great options for mounting optics using the B&T mounts. The downside is that parts are expensive and you really cannot perform armorer level maintenance in your home workshop. But it is still my favorite.
The UZI is a phenomenal SMG and I would never want to be without one in my collection. ROF is adjustable using various buffers. Caliber conversions are available, with 22lr, 9mm, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP all as options. It suppresses very well, subjectively better than both the fullsize mp5 and the K. Optic mounting options are available but less desirable than mp5 due to the fact that they are installed on the top cover. Spare parts are in plentiful supply, though barrels are harder to come by. US made barrels are available from Green Mountain. My barrel is cut down and with a 3-lug added.
If you want a DLO trigger frame, Doug Oefinger currently has them up for sale. He will only periodically sell them. He currently get $15k for the stripped registered frame.
http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=20318&query=retrieval
There is a gent selling a DLO frame in an all German MP5 host for $22k I believe, which is not terrible if you look at the accessories he has listed with it.
http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=20262&query=retrieval
Any similar custom options for the UZI?
They make side cocking top covers and top covers with rails, but honestly I think it is kinda like customizing a horse and buggy with spinners.
In any situation where a 10 lb. open bold subgun is going to be suitable, it will be a situation where side cocking and optics aren't critical to the situation. That said, given the dismal peep sights of the Uzi if you were going to address anything that would be the place to start.
The Uzi was once the premier SMG but those days ended sometime in the 1970s and even the current head of the class, the MP5 and it's variants, have a very narrow and specialized practical application.
Ironically the MP5 is probably now more suited to the civilian home defender than the MIL/LE applications it was designed for.
It depends on what you want to do with it. I own two, an M-16 with 9mm conversion and SWD M-11/9mm with a Lage Max-11 upper.
For subgun matches and fun at the range I like the Max-11. Mine uses converted Suomi double feed magazines.
Here are my opinions, for what they are worth-if you have a FA M-16 lower just buy a Colt 9mm upper and call it a day. That is one nice thing about the 16 platform is that there are so many options out there for it.
As for the Mac, Uzi, MP5 argument-Mac's are ok if you want to blast through ammo and look "Gangsta" and while the MP5 is a great weapon, mags are expensive, parts are expensive, caliber conversions are expensive (seeing a trend here????) the Uzi is one of the SMG's out there IMO. They are simple to work one, parts are easy to get and replace, mags are cheap, caliber conversions are out there and still being made. There is also a SMG you forgot to mention-the Sterling Mk4. For a smooth running, decent price ($6-$8,000) mags are pricy, but for anyone who has loaded a Sterling mag will agree with me that they are the best mag to load EVER.
In the end, its all up to you and how much you want to spend. Just be ready to spend money and wait 6-7 months for your new gun.
I do not own any full auto guns and probably never will but the MP5 seems like the only logical way to go. That's a fine, fine weapon, my friend.
I have owned or shot them all and I kept the Swedish K while selling off my Colt 9mm, MP5 and MP5K.
I think you are leaving out a few other alternatives. Look into the Sterling, its a excellent SMG as well and you can get barrels with the 3 lug on it for MP5 suppressors. I have a threaded barrel for my Swedish K if I want to suppress it as well.
The MAC is a useless POS unless you Lage it.
Which ever SMG you buy, or any MG for that matter, have a complete spare parts kit for it at minimum. Parts may be plentiful right now but later on they will dry up. Since you are going with 9mm ammo will be available but when ever I buy a MG I always buy at least 10K rounds of its caliber too. Thsi has really saved me for several of my guns like the Swedish BAR, ZB26, M3A1 Gease Gun and Ppsh41. All those guns I got the ammo cheap and have plenty on hand with enough until I most likely die.
For machine guns I am really into very controllable guns. I made a list of them in order how I feel about their controllablility.
As for rating SMGs from most controllable (for me) to least my list looks like this (only military models, I'm not going to cover custom or civilian only SMGs:
1. Beretta P12S
2. Beretta 38A
3. Swedish K
-- Sterling
-- MP5 9mm
4. Soumi
-- S&W 76
-- Ppsh41
-- Pps43
5. Madsen 50 SMG
-- M16 9mm
-- MP41
-- MP40 / MP38
-- Walter MPL
6. UZI - full size
7. MP28.II
-- MP34
-- Lanchester
-- MP5K
-- Sten Mk2
-- Walter MPK
8. M3A1 Grease gun
9. M3 Grease gun - don't ask me why but the two grease guns seem to behave differently to me.
10. H&K UMP 9mm
11. H&K UMP 40
12. H&K UMP 45
13. Reising M50
14. Thompson M1 M1A1 or 1928
15. Thompson 1921
16. MAC 11 380acp
17. MAC 12 380acp
18. MAC 10 9mm
19. MAC 11 9mm
20. MAC 10 45acp
21. Micro Uzi
You might also consider a 22LR SMG and just buy the conversion parts for your M16 to 9mm. That way you get a 9mm SMG and a 22LR SMG for less than a MP5 would set you back.
Another thought that might influence you. Barrel replacement, on many open bolt SMGs the barrel removal is very easy and can be changed out even at the range by a nub but other guns will require an armorer with specialized tooling. Unfortunately, many people will get a squib in there SMG that will cycle the action and will have a bulged barrel soon afterwards. When this happens on a MP5 or Thompson you will need a trained SMG smith to replace it. On a Sten, Swedish K, Uzi etc. you just unscrew the barrel nut and swap the barrel out.
KalashniKEV
03-26-12, 13:08
I do not own any full auto guns and probably never will but the MP5 seems like the only logical way to go. That's a fine, fine weapon, my friend.
I own a Lage'd M-11/9, but if I ever pick up another it would be an M-16 or RR AR-type... that or perhaps an FNC if BATFE would allow us to install the same sear in a SCAR.
I don't see the appeal of the HK type full autos- even though I have at least one host in each caliber.
I owned a Mini Uzi and currently own a M-16 and a Fleming Sear and of the options you listed I'd choose the MP5. While a 9mm upper is a viable option for your M-16 it always seemed rather choppy to me. The MP5 on the other hand is smooth, light and reliable. It's quieter when suppressed than the '16 too.
My MP5 was built from a MP5-N parts kit and a LSC flat and I haven't had any trouble with a couple thousand rounds down range. My 5yo loves it too.
http://youtu.be/1xtLIzIxYrA
And Vs. the M-16
http://youtu.be/Ge9m7Monhr0
Thanks for all your replies. I've dropped the MAC type guns from the list. I will research the other recommended platforms. I've noticed that the market for the HK MP5s is kinda tight. Not a lot out there for sale right now.
MP5, it's THE SMG. You won't regret it... ;)
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/Hypercomp01/384e4126.jpg
Andrew C. Tillman
03-28-12, 00:11
Paul,
Mongo gave you a very good list there.
I prefer the open bolt, lower cyclic rate SMG's. They are just fun to shoot. You get hits!
You get alot of bang for the buck w the Sterling and Swedish K.
Hardly any transferable Baretta M12's, but they are one of my favorites.
The HK's are great semi auto and suppressed, but have fewer hits per burst than the SMG's with a circa 550 spm cyclic rate.
In my opinion, the M11/9 with a Lage upper is as good as an MP5 or Uzi for much less money. It is also the most plentiful subgun in the NFA market with spares being produced to this day and lots of 3rd party support. You can't beat it.
In my opinion, the M11/9 with a Lage upper is as good as an MP5 or Uzi for much less money. It is also the most plentiful subgun in the NFA market with spares being produced to this day and lots of 3rd party support. You can't beat it.
"as good as an MP5" for what?
For making a "brrrrrrpt" noise and putting a smile on your face? Sure just as good. In fact it does it far more economically than the MP5.
For first shot placement? Hardly, this is why the closed bolt MP5 replaced every open bolt SMG out there including the extremely well made Swedish K.
Now it is an absolute fact that at the Knob Creek subgun competition M-10s with lage uppers often take first place. So I'd hardly decree the M-10 to be the useless POS some have suggested they are. But Knob Creek shoots aren't exactly the same as situations where you see SWAT and special forces employing SMGs.
In my opinion, the M11/9 with a Lage upper is as good as an MP5 or Uzi for much less money. It is also the most plentiful subgun in the NFA market with spares being produced to this day and lots of 3rd party support. You can't beat it.
No it is not "as good". Period
No it is not "as good". Period
You are absolutely correct. In the arena of subgun matches the Lage Max-11 is better.
The Lage Mfg. products, Max-10, Max-11 or Max31, win more subgun matches than any other sub-machine gun around here. It also does very well in other matches that I am aware of. (Lage also makes a .22 kit for the M-11 and Max-11.
The MP-5s do not do well in out matches.
We do have a Beretta M-12, Carl Gustav M45s (tube guns) and many others that shoot in our matches. Sterling's are few around here but function well.
As I and others have previously posted, it depends on what you want to do with the gun.
You are absolutely correct. In the arena of subgun matches the Lage Max-11 is better.
The Lage Mfg. products, Max-10, Max-11 or Max31, win more subgun matches than any other sub-machine gun around here. It also does very well in other matches that I am aware of. (Lage also makes a .22 kit for the M-11 and Max-11.
The MP-5s do not do well in out matches.
We do have a Beretta M-12, Carl Gustav M45s (tube guns) and many others that shoot in our matches. Sterling's are few around here but function well.
As I and others have previously posted, it depends on what you want to do with the gun.
And that is not the case either.
Keep in mind subgun matches tend to be populated with guys who have the time and money to buy machine guns. Given that Mac/LAGEs are the most common that is why you see them win so often. There is also a consideration that most people with MP5s don't have as much free time for shooting.
If you put the same two guns into a SWAT competition or military trials you would get much different results.
And that is not the case either.
Keep in mind subgun matches tend to be populated with guys who have the time and money to buy machine guns. Given that Mac/LAGEs are the most common that is why you see them win so often. There is also a consideration that most people with MP5s don't have as much free time for shooting.
If you put the same two guns into a SWAT competition or military trials you would get much different results.
At our matches as many people own MP-5s as do Max-11s. The Max-11s win most of the time and always place higher than the MP-5s.
At least 3 active Tactical Team Members (SWAT) have attended our matches with, although irregularly, with their agency's MP-5s. The same still holds true.
I have attended a Gunsite MP-5 Course with one of my agency's MP-5s and an le/mil 3 day "SMG Operator" course at Glendale Community College taught by two Glendale PD Tactical Team Members with one of my agency's MP-5 SD's. I also used one while assigned to the range for years. Point being I am familiar with MP-5s.
Once again, I will stand by my point, "The Lage Mfg. products, Max-10, Max-11 or Max31, win more subgun matches than any other sub-machine gun around here. It also does very well in other matches that I am aware of."
I never wrote it would win the Military trials or SWAT competitions, although I do not know of any Tactical Teams around here deploying with any more.
Again, it depends on what you want the gun for.
At our matches as many people own MP-5s as do Max-11s. The Max-11s win most of the time and always place higher than the MP-5s.
At least 3 active Tactical Team Members (SWAT) have attended our matches with, although irregularly, with their agency's MP-5s. The same still holds true.
I have attended a Gunsite MP-5 Course with one of my agency's MP-5s and an le/mil 3 day "SMG Operator" course at Glendale Community College taught by two Glendale PD Tactical Team Members with one of my agency's MP-5 SD's. I also used one while assigned to the range for years. Point being I am familiar with MP-5s.
Once again, I will stand by my point, "The Lage Mfg. products, Max-10, Max-11 or Max31, win more subgun matches than any other sub-machine gun around here. It also does very well in other matches that I am aware of."
I never wrote it would win the Military trials or SWAT competitions, although I do not know of any Tactical Teams around here deploying with any more.
Again, it depends on what you want the gun for.
Again, I don't think SMG courses, including yours, are the same kind of proving ground as most real world applications.
Additionally, I don't think any open bolt SMG can compete with a system such as the MP5.
But if you honestly believe that the special operations community and elite LE would all switch over to the MAC / Lage system with superior results and simply continue to use the MP5 for lack of not knowing well then you are free to have those beliefs.
I don't share them, my experience tells me otherwise.
Ready.Fire.Aim
04-01-12, 01:01
DLO trigger pack at $15K is best option IMO. You can get a nice MP5 host from HKPARTS.net made by Joe Stoppiello for $3k
I have a Fleming sear in a burst pack that resides in a SP89 (civilian MP5K). Shelf packs give options, one trigger pack for a MP5, MP5K, HK91, HK53, etc.
I have a full size vector UZI, it is choppy when shooting. Rugged but not my favorite.
My Swedish K is a fun gun and very accurate Takes a while to find one. Suomi stick mags fit and are cheap. Very similar in accuracy is the MP40 but the folding stock on mine doesn't lock tight, that is common. Parts and mags are expensive.
I also have a Sterling Mk4 and Mk5. Both are keepers, especially the MK5, it is very accurate and Hollywood quiet.
Don't rule out the SWD M11. Very inexpensive. The Lage Max11 upper is very accurate and fun to shoot. Replace the stock with a Lage stock and you have 9mm fun at a great price. I have two, one has a dedicated .22 conversion kit by Lage and the other is a host for a Max 11 and Max31 uppers. I have 7k rounds through the Max11 upper, it is very reliable.
Try to shoot your choice before buying. Most big cities having a gun range with rental SMG. SMG matches will probably have what you are looking for. I thought I wanted a Thompson until I shot one, ergonomics are not for me, bought a Swedish K and Sterling Mk4 for the same total cost.
Parts kits are easy to get for all but the MP40, those are pricey. APEX has several SMG parts kits very cheap. I have a spare parts kit for all but the MP40, just a few critical spares. HKPARTS.net is good for HK. Robert RTG is also good for UZI and HK, he has cheap UZI mags.
Send a PM if you have any specific questions.
Good luck
RFA
Again, I don't think SMG courses, including yours, are the same kind of proving ground as most real world applications. ...
I agree and never wrote that they were "the same kind of proving ground..." I only wrote that which SMG you should buy depends on what you are going to do with it and that in the arena of subgun matches the Max series is a better/more winning choice than an MP-5.
There aren't any "Elite Units" around here still using MP-5s. We gave them up in the late 80's for Styer Augs and Colt Commandos. Many agencies around here are still using Commandos and two others are using POFs. The Styer Augs went away years ago. One of the Agencies with POFs just got rid of their HK-416s for them. They only had their 416s for a year. I can't speak for the Military or any other State... I can only speak to my surrounding area.
Reagans Rascals
04-01-12, 09:35
here's a question I've had for a while...
Does anyone out there offer a sub-gun course? Or Perhaps a DVD of running a sub-gun more efficiently?
Tons of handgun, carbine, precision, and shotgun courses... but any for sub-gun like the MP5, UMP?
I myself have a USC-UMP Conversion and an MP5 Clone and would love to attend a class or at the very least get my hands on a good instructional DVD for the basics if there are no classes...
Gunsite is the only place I've seen so far to offer one
here's a question I've had for a while...
Does anyone out there offer a sub-gun course? Or Perhaps a DVD of running a sub-gun more efficiently?
Tons of handgun, carbine, precision, and shotgun courses... but any for sub-gun like the MP5, UMP?
I myself have a USC-UMP Conversion and an MP5 Clone and would love to attend a class or at the very least get my hands on a good instructional DVD for the basics if there are no classes...
Gunsite is the only place I've seen so far to offer one
You might check with LMS defense. I have seen Chappy run an MP5 through a shoot house. They could probably put a class together provided there is interest. I think the problem you run into is most deptmartments have dropped the sub gun and gone to SBR AR 15s and most sub guns are a niche product for civis.
Ready.Fire.Aim
04-01-12, 12:47
here's a question I've had for a while...
Does anyone out there offer a sub-gun course? Or Perhaps a DVD of running a sub-gun more efficiently?
Consider hanging out at www.uzitalk.com, or www.subguns.com and asking the same question, those two sites are mostly about submachine guns.
Often there are serious SMG shooters posting upcoming matches and usually SMG guys are very friendly and willing to help with form and function. You'll probably find a shoot in your area.
www.hkpro.com had MP5 classes being offered on it's NFA section recently.
Or you can take the route I did. Shoot about 30,000 rounds through various SMG and I can finally keep most of the bullet holes where I want to. I'm blessed and get to shoot at home, claybirds on a sandpile are a great stress reducer. I would love to take a course from an expert (like the one offered on HKPRO) and probably will one day.
good luck,
RFA
here's a question I've had for a while...
Does anyone out there offer a sub-gun course? Or Perhaps a DVD of running a sub-gun more efficiently?
Gunsite is the only place I've seen so far to offer one
Front Site, Glendale Community College in Glendale AZ, and Clint Smith are a few I can think of. Singleton and Giles Stock did also, but I do not know it they still do.
I agree and never wrote that they were "the same kind of proving ground..." I only wrote that which SMG you should buy depends on what you are going to do with it and that in the arena of subgun matches the Max series is a better/more winning choice than an MP-5.
Honestly, when it comes to things like subgun matches, it is usually the shooter more than the weapon. If your competitors swapped weapons for a year I bet the same shooters would still win most of the matches only this time with the MP5.
I'm really not here to bash on the MAC/Lage system. I've seen too many people win with it. But I've seen the occasional shooter do the same with a S&W 76 but I don't think that is due to the merits of the 76 itself.
There aren't any "Elite Units" around here still using MP-5s. We gave them up in the late 80's for Styer Augs and Colt Commandos. Many agencies around here are still using Commandos and two others are using POFs. The Styer Augs went away years ago. One of the Agencies with POFs just got rid of their HK-416s for them. They only had their 416s for a year. I can't speak for the Military or any other State... I can only speak to my surrounding area.
And before that the MP5 was adopted in place of those old M16s. This was more about caliber doctrine than the merits of M16s vs. MP5s. Same way the FBI suddenly went to .40 handguns and MP5/40s as a result of the Miami shootout.
Following Princess Gate everyone decided that a short, pistol caliber SMG that was capable of first shot placement and controllable during automatic fire was the way to go and that is why everyone soon had to have an MP5. Within a decade military forces and elite LE began to encounter situations like bad guys wearing body armor and realized the limitations of pistol caliber SMGs for special circumstances. This combined with a FBI materials test and of course the North Hollywood shootout sent most people running back to the M16 platform, usually in an M4 configuration.
The modern MAC is an interesting platform really. It doesn't suffer the weight issue of the Uzi and in one respect it is a more advanced generation than the MP5 due to the magazine inserting directly into the handle vs. the older forward magazine mount typically found on MP40 type weapons. First time I ran a MAC / Lage setup it was surprising to me because I had expected a MAC covered in Tapco shit.
We are way off the OP's subject, but I agree with most of what you wrote. However, I have seen the same shooters, including myself and my son, shoot with different sub guns in a match and overall they perform better with the Max-11. The guns I have used in a match are an M-16 9mm, my son's Smith 76, a local agency's MP5 and my Max-11. By far the best gun for our matches as far as cyclic rate, reliability, controllability, sights, accessory rail for optics... is the Max-11. We have guys that own more than one gun and their performance is better with their Max-11 and now several are shooting the new Max-31. So, based on these first hand observations, I disagree with you that the same shooter with another gun would perform the same. I practice on Fridays with several other officers and sometimes Rob Leatham joins us. He is Rob Leatham, so he shoots well with every handgun I have seen him shoot, but he does shoot better with certain handguns and has guns built specifically for certain matches. The Max-11 and now Max-31 are two guns that were designed for and perform better at our matches. Ask Richard Lage why he designed the uppers and he will readily admit it was/is for competition and specifically our matches.
The reason Tactical Teams around here went away from 9mm subguns had to do with over penetration inside a residence... The issued .223 ammo penetrated less than the issued 9mm and performed better when it came to its intended purpose. We did not run into a body armor issue until years after we dropped the MP5's and by that time we had already switched to .223. Giles Stock was the first to bring the penetration issue to me and I had a hard time believing it until we proved it in gelatin, dry wall...
I must also disclose that Richard Lage is a friend of mine, although I do not believe that has influenced my opinion of his products. We did not become friends until after I first saw him shooting his Max-11 prototype and formed my opinion of his product at that time.
KalashniKEV
04-02-12, 09:31
The modern MAC is an interesting platform really. It doesn't suffer the weight issue of the Uzi and in one respect it is a more advanced generation than the MP5 due to the magazine inserting directly into the handle vs. the older forward magazine mount typically found on MP40 type weapons. First time I ran a MAC / Lage setup it was surprising to me because I had expected a MAC covered in Tapco shit.
If Gordon Ingram had revised his design to reduce the cyclic rate and incorporated a few of the other changes Lage came up with, he would have sold a LOT more subguns back in the day. Especially if he lead the charge with mounting lights, lasers. (two big what-ifs)
Even with the silly high cyclic rate, I'm kind of surprised they weren't more popular.
Light, compact, CHEAP, and bundled with a suppressor, with those mods, I don't think Uzi would have been as popular.
It just needed:
1) Slower cyclic rate
2) Better Magazines
3) Sights
...in that order.
I disagree with you that the same shooter with another gun would perform the same.
I did stress that they would have to spend a suitable amount of time on the new system. But you may still disagree with that assertion.
The reason Tactical Teams around here went away from 9mm subguns had to do with over penetration inside a residence.
That would be the FBI materials test I referenced.
I must also disclose that Richard Lage is a friend of mine, although I do not believe that has influenced my opinion of his products. We did not become friends until after I first saw him shooting his Max-11 prototype and formed my opinion of his product at that time.
And what I have seen leads me to the other conclusion. And there we are.
If Gordon Ingram had revised his design to reduce the cyclic rate and incorporated a few of the other changes Lage came up with, he would have sold a LOT more subguns back in the day. Especially if he lead the charge with mounting lights, lasers. (two big what-ifs)
Even with the silly high cyclic rate, I'm kind of surprised they weren't more popular.
Light, compact, CHEAP, and bundled with a suppressor, with those mods, I don't think Uzi would have been as popular.
It just needed:
1) Slower cyclic rate
2) Better Magazines
3) Sights
...in that order.
There are so many "what ifs" in small arms history. Basically the MAC was a "budget Uzi" that could be mass produced. And I think it did it's job well.
An important distinction is that the Uzi was 9mm and the MAC was a .45 and yet the MAC was smaller. Slowing down the cyclic rate then meant increasing the weight of the bolt and it was already heavy enough. Rate reducing buffers would have required more R&D than they were willing to invest.
As for mags, to be successful it had to use an existing magazine and in .45 you have two choices, grease gun magazines or thompson magazines. They chose the correct magazine.
I actually think the M10 was great for what it was, at the time. It just had a few drawbacks like most systems.
I did stress that they would have to spend a suitable amount of time on the new system. But you may still disagree with that assertion.
You are correct, I still disagree.
That would be the FBI materials test I referenced.
And I was referring to the mid-80's testing I personally took part in which led local agency's Tactical Teams to swap their HK MP-5s for 5.56 caliber firearms. Not all chose the AR platform, but they did choose the caliber.
And what I have seen leads me to the other conclusion. And there we are.
I had been competing in subgun matches with an M16 and an MP5 long before I met Richard Lage. I also became sold on his product and ordered his upper before we became friends. After receiving his upper and shooting it, I liked it so much I bought two more M-11s and Max-11 uppers for family members, one of which already owned his own subgun, a Smith 76. Later Richard and I became friends. Read into it what you will.
I guess I don't understand the driving need for a different platform here. Were it me, I'd build a top shelf 9mm M-16 setup and use all that extra money for ammo.
Since the OP wants "different" and suppressed, I'd probably go with the MP5A3 type setup. Either the DLO for top quality or a shelf pack setup if you want to use it on multiple hosts. As someone who's owned a slow fire converted M11 and a RR M-16, I do not miss the M11 setup at all.
Either way, make sure you get one of the newer design user serviceable cans. Running FA, you'll want the ability to clean it out after a while.
KalashniKEV
04-02-12, 15:01
I guess I don't understand the driving need for a different platform here. Were it me, I'd build a top shelf 9mm M-16 setup and use all that extra money for ammo.
That's still my pick.
Well if you like ergonomics like a 2x4 and no input as to how the human body moves or works it it's design, then the choice is clear. If you like shooting something comfortable and accurate, the choice is clear. I would go 1 MP5 and 2 M16 9mm. If money was not an issue, go MP5, if modularity is an issue, M16. if you just want to go ape shit with ammo and don't care what the lead is comming out of, steel box it is. Or a bump fire stock.......:suicide2:
KalashniKEV
04-03-12, 11:41
Well if you like ergonomics like a 2x4 and no input as to how the human body moves or works it it's design, then the choice is clear. If you like shooting something comfortable and accurate, the choice is clear. I would go 1 MP5 and 2 M16 9mm. If money was not an issue, go MP5, if modularity is an issue, M16. if you just want to go ape shit with ammo and don't care what the lead is comming out of, steel box it is. Or a bump fire stock.......:suicide2:
LOL... I'll bet you really get mad when an MP5 gets bested by a Lage on the range...
There's no doubt an MP5 feels more "delightful" or "wonderful" or whatever than any MAC mod could, but it's also a terrible platform for mounting any kind of modern RDS.
Still, my choice is:
1) 9mm AR
2) MP5
3) Lage MAX-11
it's also a terrible platform for mounting any kind of modern RDS.
http://store.troyind.com/Troy_BattleRail_MP5_p/srai-mp5-00bt-00.htm
And there's many of us that weld a rail to the MP5 receiver. Also there are a few good receiver mounted rails.....
:p
KalashniKEV
04-03-12, 21:15
http://store.troyind.com/Troy_BattleRail_MP5_p/srai-mp5-00bt-00.htm
And there's many of us that weld a rail to the MP5 receiver. Also there are a few good receiver mounted rails.....
:p
That's not really a good mount... you get the same diving board effect as the TDi AK rails.
I suppose you certainly could weld onto the receiver of an MP5 and it would be just as solid and slightly less sound than the integral rail of a Lage.
There's no doubt an MP5 feels more "delightful" or "wonderful" or whatever than any MAC mod could, but it's also a terrible platform for mounting any kind of modern RDS.
I think the B&T MP5 mount is as good or better than the rail on a Lage.
http://www.dsarms.com/HK-MP5_K_SD_SP89-Low-Profile-Aimpoint-Mount---BT10266/productinfo/BT10266/
http://www.dsarms.com/HK-MP5-HK93_94_33_G3_SP89-Universal-Mount---BT212621/productinfo/BT212621/
Hell even the ARMS claw mount rail works just fine.
KalashniKEV
04-04-12, 07:40
I think the B&T MP5 mount is as good or better than the rail on a Lage.
It's still a clip on, and even if you broke the allen wrench off putting it on, it's unlikely to survive a fall from the hood of a truck to the pavement.
Hell, even welding a rail onto the receiver is a less sound method than integrating rails into the receiver design.
Like the AK and other unadapted weapons designed before the popularity of RDS- there are workarounds, but none are particularly good...
Regardless of mount, the MP5 is one of the worlds best sub guns. Period....
Anyone has a picture of a rail welded on to a HK MP5???? Also who would do a good welding job and what rail?
Thanks
Jay
It's still a clip on, and even if you broke the allen wrench off putting it on, it's unlikely to survive a fall from the hood of a truck to the pavement.
Hell, even welding a rail onto the receiver is a less sound method than integrating rails into the receiver design.
Like the AK and other unadapted weapons designed before the popularity of RDS- there are workarounds, but none are particularly good...
And yet, I've never really had a big problem and I haven't heard too many people in the non internet world complaining about it.
It's kinda like the MAC magazine release not being as good as the MP5 paddle magazine release. Technically it is true and the MP5 magazine release is so much better that it isn't funny.
But at the end of the day it doesn't seem to matter. People with MACs seem to be able to do magazine changes and I've taken spills with my MP5 more than a few times and my mount was just fine.
Now granted if your weapon falls 4 feet onto the pavement that probably would dislodge a claw mount, but I suspect the B&T would still be there. But such a fall is also capable of dropping a magazine, bending barrels and cracking buffer tubes.
Also I don't think "pre RDS" has anything to do with it. There have always been optics and if you can use optics you can use a RDS.
The main issue is decades ago they weren't gonna invest in optics for every soldier and he was expected to work with iron sights. Even if RDS was more popular in the mid 1980s (I had one) that would still be the case.
Given the top cover design of the AK the side or scout location is the only place you can put a mount. Since the beginning HK were designed for a claw mount, it wasn't a work around. If it works for a G3 SG1 it is gonna work on a MP5 just fine. Only the PSG1 and MSG90 had more dedicated mounts.
I think sometimes we focus on the extraneous details, especially on the internet.
The reality is the SWAT and Ninja SEAL guys will always use the MP5 over a MAC/Lage system and every year at Knob Creek somebody with a MAC/Lage system will still school the entire group regardless of how many MP5s might be present.
And I strong suspect that if you gave all those NInja SEALs a MAC/Lage system they would still **** over everybody in the house and if you gave the top competitors at Knob Creek MP5s they'd still beat the rest of the crowd.
I still think Lee said it the best "Absorb what is useful, discard the rest."
And if you work better with a MAC/Lage system then that is what "you" should use. Even if 99% of the rest of the population comes to a different conclusion, what matters is what YOU do best. I think sometimes that idea gets lost on this forum and many adopt a "only one correct answer - one size fits all" mentality.
When it comes to small arms I try and know "many ways" and do my best to choose what is "most useful" for a given situation.
Anyone has a picture of a rail welded on to a HK MP5???? Also who would do a good welding job and what rail?
Thanks
Jay
I can't say how much I would strongly recommend against doing that.
KalashniKEV
04-04-12, 13:54
And yet, I've never really had a big problem and I haven't heard too many people in the non internet world complaining about it.
It's kinda like the MAC magazine release not being as good as the MP5 paddle magazine release. Technically it is true and the MP5 magazine release is so much better that it isn't funny.
But at the end of the day it doesn't seem to matter. People with MACs seem to be able to do magazine changes and I've taken spills with my MP5 more than a few times and my mount was just fine.
Now granted if your weapon falls 4 feet onto the pavement that probably would dislodge a claw mount, but I suspect the B&T would still be there. But such a fall is also capable of dropping a magazine, bending barrels and cracking buffer tubes.
Also I don't think "pre RDS" has anything to do with it. There have always been optics and if you can use optics you can use a RDS.
The main issue is decades ago they weren't gonna invest in optics for every soldier and he was expected to work with iron sights. Even if RDS was more popular in the mid 1980s (I had one) that would still be the case.
Given the top cover design of the AK the side or scout location is the only place you can put a mount. Since the beginning HK were designed for a claw mount, it wasn't a work around. If it works for a G3 SG1 it is gonna work on a MP5 just fine. Only the PSG1 and MSG90 had more dedicated mounts.
I think sometimes we focus on the extraneous details, especially on the internet.
The reality is the SWAT and Ninja SEAL guys will always use the MP5 over a MAC/Lage system and every year at Knob Creek somebody with a MAC/Lage system will still school the entire group regardless of how many MP5s might be present.
And I strong suspect that if you gave all those NInja SEALs a MAC/Lage system they would still **** over everybody in the house and if you gave the top competitors at Knob Creek MP5s they'd still beat the rest of the crowd.
I still think Lee said it the best "Absorb what is useful, discard the rest."
And if you work better with a MAC/Lage system then that is what "you" should use. Even if 99% of the rest of the population comes to a different conclusion, what matters is what YOU do best. I think sometimes that idea gets lost on this forum and many adopt a "only one correct answer - one size fits all" mentality.
When it comes to small arms I try and know "many ways" and do my best to choose what is "most useful" for a given situation.
Very well said.
I can't say how much I would strongly recommend against doing that.
Why? I wouldn't do it to a presample or transferable but posties and clones are great for it....
Anyone has a picture of a rail welded on to a HK MP5???? Also who would do a good welding job and what rail?
Thanks
Jay
Adam over at HKparts sells the rail and there are a few good builders that do it....
Thanks SteyrAug & 99HMC4 for your replies. Yes mine HK Guns are all mint condition Pre86 samples , and thinking hard about it , I would not weld anything on them. I suppose welding the rail on top would also cover most of the marking on the top as well.
Why? I wouldn't do it to a presample or transferable but posties and clones are great for it....
Clones are not a MP5 and the B&T rail is more than adequate.
Guys like Dakota Tactical, Parabellum Combat Systems and a few others build HK quality MP5 platform firearms. Main difference being only the receiver is US made, everything else is German HK. these are fine guns and give you the option of having real MP5 quality while being able to updat and customize them without modifying a true transferable (which are not real MP5s either) or a dealer sample (real MP5).....
Off topic a bit, but Do you guys know of Anyone giving HK Mp5 operator or tactical classes in the northeast for civilians??? .
cheers
Jay
Pony know if this is okay but for HK related stuff it's easier to go to HKpro.com....
Guys like Dakota Tactical, Parabellum Combat Systems and a few others build HK quality MP5 platform firearms. Main difference being only the receiver is US made, everything else is German HK. these are fine guns and give you the option of having real MP5 quality while being able to updat and customize them without modifying a true transferable (which are not real MP5s either) or a dealer sample (real MP5).....
No disrespect intended towards Dakota and the others, but US made receiver guns assembled in gunsmith shops rather than in contract factories are anything BUT "real MP5 quality."
As far as being able to "update and customize", anything you can do to a genuine MP5 you can do to a HK94 conversion. Things like welded rails are completely unnecessary, it makes as much sense as welding a weapon light to it.
Clones are fine for what they are, especially for people who can't afford the real thing, but saying they are "just as good" is like me claiming DPMS is "just as good" as Colt because it is "mil spec."
Off topic a bit, but Do you guys know of Anyone giving HK Mp5 operator or tactical classes in the northeast for civilians??? .
cheers
Jay
Here is what you are going to run into.
The MP5 "operator" classes that you would want to take are all going to be LE/MIL only and the MP5 "operator" classes that aren't restricted you would mostly laugh at.
For some reason, and probably a result of it being the way HKTD did things, if you want to be respected you can't teach LE/MIL stuff to "civies."
Additionally, I don't think there are enough MP5s in the hands of civilians who want to pay hundreds of dollars for training from guys like Vickers even if he did offer a SMG operator course (I don't think he does) to make it practical or cost effective.
You are absolutely correct. In the arena of subgun matches the Lage Max-11 is better.
The Lage Mfg. products, Max-10, Max-11 or Max31, win more subgun matches than any other sub-machine gun around here. It also does very well in other matches that I am aware of. (Lage also makes a .22 kit for the M-11 and Max-11.
The MP-5s do not do well in out matches.
We do have a Beretta M-12, Carl Gustav M45s (tube guns) and many others that shoot in our matches. Sterling's are few around here but function well.
As I and others have previously posted, it depends on what you want to do with the gun.
I know its late in the thread, but that is not what I meant. I do not shoot in subgun matches and that is not the context of what I said what I said. As far as shooting, hiting target AFTER the first, second, and third shot in fa, the MP5 is better. Beyond control, ergonomics, everything else discussed in this thread after I posted, the weapon is a better quality choice. More expensive, yes, but you get what you pay for. The Mac has its place and I like shooting it as well, but if I were going to buy, I'd save for the Cadillac, not the Toyota.
Both are good weapons but are you really going to tell me that all around, the Mac is better than the MP5?
No disrespect intended towards Dakota and the others, but US made receiver guns assembled in gunsmith shops rather than in contract factories are anything BUT "real MP5 quality."
As far as being able to "update and customize", anything you can do to a genuine MP5 you can do to a HK94 conversion. Things like welded rails are completely unnecessary, it makes as much sense as welding a weapon light to it.
Clones are fine for what they are, especially for people who can't afford the real thing, but saying they are "just as good" is like me claiming DPMS is "just as good" as Colt because it is "mil spec."
Well I'll have to disagree to your disagree. Take your DPMS example, say you took a real Colt and took every part off but the receiver, then but those real Colt parts on a DPMS receiver. Considering the fact that a COLT receivers were not available you would have a good quality firearm. Also by your reasoning, there is absolutely no need for the A3 uppers, cause there are bolt on rails for the A1 uppers...
Steyr, I agree with you that welding a rail onto a factory HK pre-sample or RR dual pushpin transferable is a bad idea due to loss of collector value. But the idea of a near full length welded on rail on an mp5 (or better yet a K-PDW) with low profile flip up irons (KAC micros), and an Aimpoint T1, well I think that would be an awesome SMG.
Well I'll have to disagree to your disagree. Take your DPMS example, say you took a real Colt and took every part off but the receiver, then but those real Colt parts on a DPMS receiver. Considering the fact that a COLT receivers were not available you would have a good quality firearm. Also by your reasoning, there is absolutely no need for the A3 uppers, cause there are bolt on rails for the A1 uppers...
Again you are overlooking a build done in a gunsmith shop vs. a contract factory with correct tooling.
Unlike ARs, HKs were never intended to be built in anything OTHER than a factory with correct tooling which is why places like Pakistan established contract factories when they build AK rifles in bicycle shops. I don't think you completely understand what is involved in building an HK rifle and why it needs to be done with correct tools and presses.
Also there are "quality" AR receivers out there that are comparable to the Colt receiver, there is no comparable HK 9mm receiver that even comes close to HK quality. I also don't think you completely understand what is involved in making a correct HK receiver.
And you would be just fine using a A1 upper for an AR with a bolt on mount. This is exactly as it is still done on the Colt 9mm SMG for example. And for the same reason, the MP5 is still being made WITHOUT a flattop rail integral to the receiver. It simply isn't necessary.
I do know what's involved, HKs ate my babies, i never said tgay were as good as tesl german HKs but as very well made firearms. Agree to disagree:D
I do know what's involved, HKs ate my babies, i never said tgay were as good as tesl german HKs but as very well made firearms. Agree to disagree:D
Actually you did.
"having real MP5 quality"
Now if what you intended to say was that these are as good as clones get, there never was any disagreement. In fact I'm often amazed at what US clone makers are able to accomplish given the fact that they do NOT have HK tooling.
But the idea of a near full length welded on rail on an mp5 (or better yet a K-PDW) with low profile flip up irons (KAC micros), and an Aimpoint T1, well I think that would be an awesome SMG.
I suppose you could say that about every firearm. Wouldn't it be awesome to have a FAL, G3, AKM, SIG 550, Uzi. Colt SMG, etc. all with KAC micros and T1s?
But the question becomes is it really necessary or even an improvement. I personally prefer the diopter sights of SIGs and HKs to any flip sight configuration and I find the ability to put a RDS on a claw mount more than adequate.
If I was going to change anything on the HK series it would simply be to allow a B&T rail system such as found on Swiss SIG rifles. I'd also rather have a side flip mount for my RDS/Optics than flip my iron sights.
I think sometimes we go a little rail crazy, it's kind of like insisting that every new firearm accept AR magazines.
I suppose you could say that about every firearm. Wouldn't it be awesome to have a FAL, G3, AKM, SIG 550, Uzi. Colt SMG, etc. all with KAC micros and T1s?
But the question becomes is it really necessary or even an improvement. I personally prefer the diopter sights of SIGs and HKs to any flip sight configuration and I find the ability to put a RDS on a claw mount more than adequate.
If I was going to change anything on the HK series it would simply be to allow a B&T rail system such as found on Swiss SIG rifles. I'd also rather have a side flip mount for my RDS/Optics than flip my iron sights.
I think sometimes we go a little rail crazy, it's kind of like insisting that every new firearm accept AR magazines.
I hear what you are saying, though I am personally biased toward integral optic rails. I have four factory Swiss 55x series all with diopters and one 556 converted to 552 with a factory Swiss optic rail welded in place. My diopter guns wear B&T optic rails. I also have an SP89 converted to MP5K-PDW with a DLO pack. In all cases with diopter sights, while I like them I would certainly prefer a simple integral optic rail with a T1. I greatly prefer the railed 55x to the diopter models.
Again, personal preference but I do believe integral optic rails have merit on modern small arms.
Wow, some threads never die.
fixit69,
My hit ratio on full auto with a Max-11, even after the 3rd shot, is as good, or better, probably better, than my hit ratio with an MP-5. Semi auto accuracy is where the MP-5 outshines the Mac. I am not certain what is more ergonomically correct about an MP-5. I don’t like the selector of either firearm. The safety is separate from the selector on a Mac and disengaged with the trigger finger, just like an M-1, M-14 or Mini-14… Lage manufactures an extended safety lever which gives an advantage to the Mac in regards of manipulating the safety. (Our guns must remain on full auto during the match, so the Mac’s selector lever is a mute point to me) Lage also manufactures a mag release lever that is engaged by the “strong” hand thumb while holding the firearm in a proper firing grip. It does look similar to a thumb safety on a 1911 and I shoot 1911’s a lot and have never had an issue with either because of the location or design. Also an M-11 with a Lage upper has a cyclic rate of approximately 650, 750 or 900 rpm depending on what bolt weight you select. Our matches have a lot of plate racks and other targets that only require single hits. The ability to fire singles reliably, while the selector is on full-auto, is a big factor in our match performance. At 650 rpm I can fire singles on demand all day. At 750 rpm I slip up every once in a while. I cannot consistently fire singles with an MP-5.
Please define “all around” and I will be happy to discuss which SMG I think is best. Personally, I am not a fan of SMGs for anything other than matches and other recreational activities. I personally believe weapons and ammunition design has made them obsolete for law enforcement. (I cannot speak to current military applications) That does not mean I do not think SMG’s are an acceptable tool, I just don’t think they are the best tool.
As to the best shooters using any SMG and succeeding/winning: I do think the top competitors would do well with anything you place in their hands as long as it functions reliably. I also think they have personal preferences based on what they shoot best. Unlike other shooting sports, I do not know of any factory sponsored subgun shooters. I do know of two average shooters that switched from MP-5s to Max-11s and their performance increased. One of them sold his MP-5 (a converted HK) to buy the Max-11. The other kept his and added a Max-11. I quit shooting my M-16 9mm and bought a Lage upper for an M-11/9 that had been sitting in my safe for years.
As far as M-16 9mms, I am not a fan of them even though I own one. Even with a ramped bolt and heavy buffer they are hard on hammer pins and the recoil is “choppy.” Hand loaded ammo along with certain buffers and springs can help, but they are still choppy. For someone that owns an M-16 it is an easy, inexpensive conversion and fun to shoot.
The OP wrote “…I am not sure which one would be the easiest to maintain (i.e. availability of parts & mags and ease of me doing it myself)” With those parameters in mind I believe the Mac is easier to maintain and repair, by the owner, than an MP-5. Cost of parts also goes to the Mac. The downside for the M-11/9 is the magazines. Argentinean PAM-2 mags are the best to convert. Madsen mags are alright. I have guns converted for double feed Suomi mags. In the mag category the MP-5 wins.
Please do not get me wrong, if I were selecting an SMG for L/E I would still choose the MP-5, even though HK’s support isn’t the best. To me the Max-11 is for recreation and I posted that years ago on another forum when someone brought up using them for law enforcement.
For matches and recreational use with family and friends I would go with an M-11/9mm and Lage conversion. With a “mac-jack” you can increase the stock cyclic rate to 2000 rpm or with a Lage conversion slow it down to 650. 22 kits available for the Macs, MP-5 and M-16.
Again, as I have written all along, define what you will be using the gun for. Also set a budget. There are other fine SMG's out there and have been named elsewhere in this thread. If you are just going to use it in matches then you may want to look at the new Max-31. It uses Suomi coffin and drum mags.
I cannot consistently fire singles with an MP-5.
Put it on "E."
:D
I would, but as I wrote it is not allowed in our matches. Gun must remain on f/a. I believe they should allow the use of the selector, but I did not make the rules. Florida has a match that allows the use of the selector but it is a long way to travel for a match.
For L/E I would leave it on E most, if not all, the time.
I would, but as I wrote it is not allowed in our matches. Gun must remain on f/a. I believe they should allow the use of the selector, but I did not make the rules. Florida has a match that allows the use of the selector but it is a long way to travel for a match.
For L/E I would leave it on E most, if not all, the time.
I was just "funnin" with ya. I actually think we are all more or less on the same page now that we have elaborated our views in great detail. And while we may not all share the same opinions on everything we at least seem to understand the reasoning behind any differing opinions.
I'd say MP5 hands down, but people would most likely get a chuckle if they asked me why.
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