View Full Version : Hourly Gunsmith rate???
What do you guys feel is fair hourly rate to pay for a gunsmith to work on your firearm? Could be fixing it, upgrading it, etc.
C4
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-28-12, 10:54
What do you guys feel is fair hourly rate to pay for a gunsmith to work on your firearm? Could be fixing it, upgrading it, etc.
C4
Had a lot of work done on my bolt guns by a a few diffrent smiths. I dont think an hourly rate is approprate. It should be by the job.
Now if your asking because your going to be paying someone to do work for you in your shop for your customers. Then I suppose it would depend on their experience level and the work being preformed ie. the responsibility level.
I dont think assembeling ARs is that hard so I dont suppose I would pay someone a lot for that. But if we are talking tolerences and machine time then I would say at the very least a starting hourly rate of 20$ hr plus benifits.
Had a lot of work done on my bolt guns by a a few diffrent smiths. I dont think an hourly rate is approprate. It should be by the job.
Now if your asking because your going to be paying someone to do work for you in your shop for your customers. Then I suppose it would depend on their experience level and the work being preformed ie. the responsibility level.
I dont think assembeling ARs is that hard so I dont suppose I would pay someone a lot for that. But if we are talking tolerences and machine time then I would say at the very least a starting hourly rate of 20$ hr plus benifits.
That is certainly a way to look at it. To me, gunsmiths are similar to auto mechanics. They get an hourly fee for working on your car.
AR's are easy to build if you know what you are doing. Many do not. So you are paying for their knowledge (years of experience) to do it the right way.
Just so you know, the average gunsmith rate that I see advertised is $50 an hour.
C4
I was in my local mechanics shop the other day and they had a sign that read:
HOURLY RATE $50
HOURLY RATE IF YOU WATCH $100
HOURLY RATE IF YOU HELP $150
HOURLY RATE IF YOU TRIED TO FIX IT YOURSELF AND THEN BROUGHT IT TO US TO FIX $200
:lol:
C4
That is certainly a way to look at it. To me, gunsmiths are similar to auto mechanics. They get an hourly fee for working on your car.
C4
True, but most repair shops charge a predetermined amount for a given job. Meaning, a brake job "should" take an average mechanic "x" amount of time so "x" times hourly rate = flat rate for the job in question.
As a customer, I would prefer predetermined fees for common jobs rather than an hourly rate. The exception being custom work, of course.
jmo.
Brownells used to have their gunsmith survey results in the catalog or at least included with the catalog. Don't know if they do that any more. But here is a 2010 version I found online. Maybe Brownells website has more info on it but I could not find it. But it gives average prices for various gunsmithing services according to their clientele of gunsmiths they surveyed.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/pricing-gunsmith-work-more-brownells-survey-200977/
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True, but most repair shops charge a predetermined amount for a given job. Meaning, a brake job "should" take an average mechanic "x" amount of time so "x" times hourly rate = flat rate for the job in question.
As a customer, I would prefer predetermined fees for common jobs rather than an hourly rate. The exception being custom work, of course.
jmo.
The auto repair shops all work off the same software/job lists that list a time for each sort of service. Don't know if that sort of thing exists for gunsmiths.
But by the job, based on an hourly rate is a reasonable way to do it. You pay say $50 for an inspection and if you go ahead with the work, the $50 is applied to the final bill as a credit for the work (or whatever amount). That way the gunsmith can get in and look at the piece and get a good feel for what is needed.
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True, but most repair shops charge a predetermined amount for a given job. Meaning, a brake job "should" take an average mechanic "x" amount of time so "x" times hourly rate = flat rate for the job in question.
As a customer, I would prefer predetermined fees for common jobs rather than an hourly rate. The exception being custom work, of course.
jmo.
Sure with "SHOULD" being the key word. Case in point, customer brought in a lower to have the commercial RE exchanged for a Mil-Spec one. Now normally, I can have this done in about 5 minutes (or less). This one however took me an hour because the person that assembled it used red loctite (and a lot of it). :mad:
C4
The auto repair shops all work off the same software/job lists that list a time for each sort of service. Don't know if that sort of thing exists for gunsmiths.
There really isn't to my knowledge.
But by the job, based on an hourly rate is a reasonable way to do it. You pay say $50 for an inspection and if you go ahead with the work, the $50 is applied to the final bill as a credit for the work (or whatever amount). That way the gunsmith can get in and look at the piece and get a good feel for what is needed.
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Agree. If I have to rip the gun apart just to figure out what is going on, then that time SHOULD be applied to the final bill.
For us here, I generally never charge labor OR charge very little ($10-$20). With that said, I have been seeing a lot more "problem" guns that need extensive troubleshooting and range time to figure out the problem. Sometimes it is due to a stupid user trick OR the manufacturer screwed something up.
So I am just trying to figure out what people believe is a fair price to pay for skilled labor.
C4
Sure with "SHOULD" being the key word. Case in point, customer brought in a lower to have the commercial RE exchanged for a Mil-Spec one. Now normally, I can have this done in about 5 minutes (or less). This one however took me an hour because the person that assembled it used red loctite (and a lot of it). :mad:
C4
Understandable, but at that juncture you may just have to call the customer and advise them that their stupidity has violated the "should only take me 5 mins" clause in the contract and additional fees will be required.:D
Maybe a one hour minimum type of thing might be more appropriate?
I would do it two ways, flat fee for certain jobs under a certain time frame. Example, Glock sight install $30 unless someone really messed with it and then hourly if it takes longer than 20 minutes.
Otherwise $50 an hour seems around about the right price, you just need to make sure you get paid for the small jobs. A 5 minute job should not be $4, your initial time is worth something as well.
Sure with "SHOULD" being the key word. Case in point, customer brought in a lower to have the commercial RE exchanged for a Mil-Spec one. Now normally, I can have this done in about 5 minutes (or less). This one however took me an hour because the person that assembled it used red loctite (and a lot of it). :mad:
C4
Sounds like an evaluation or diagnostic fee for estimating an upgrade or repair is in order. As already mentioned, if they choose to have the work done, the diag charge is applied to the bill.
The thing that scares me is an open ended charge or running meter. So, I would go for an up front, static diagnostic charge followed by fixed quote for the work. At that point I can either choose to pay the small charge and take my stuff home OR agree (in writing) to the fixed quote.
For skilled labor, our local HVAC guys get $75/hr, diesel mechanics get $90, electricians $75-$100.
Our local GS doesn't have a "gunsmith" per se, but they do small jobs like scope mounting & minor repairs & I believe they get around $50/hr.
I'd personally be happy to pay $50/hr for a skilled armorer/smith.
I think it comes down to the work being done. If you are hand checkering a 1911 frame, that requires a significant amount of skill and imparts some risk on the part of the smith. On the other hand, putting together an AR15 upper is much easier.
You could almost divide work into three parts; customization, assembly and diagnostic. The last one being probably the most time consuming.
Sure with "SHOULD" being the key word. Case in point, customer brought in a lower to have the commercial RE exchanged for a Mil-Spec one. Now normally, I can have this done in about 5 minutes (or less). This one however took me an hour because the person that assembled it used red loctite (and a lot of it). :mad:
C4
This is where you have two prices
example:
$20 Change out RET (standard case)
$50+ Change out RET (abnormal case such as glued in with loctite or other issues -- we will get you approval when progressing beyond the standard case)
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I know when doing quotes for software work, I'd rather quote a fixed price so that I don't have to stress over the time I am taking to do the job :) I want the customer to feel like they are getting a good deal and if it turns out I am incompetent in the area I can hide that :dance3:
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Sounds like an evaluation or diagnostic fee for estimating an upgrade or repair is in order. As already mentioned, if they choose to have the work done, the diag charge is applied to the bill.
The thing that scares me is an open ended charge or running meter. So, I would go for an up front, static diagnostic charge followed by fixed quote for the work. At that point I can either choose to pay the small charge and take my stuff home OR agree (in writing) to the fixed quote.
Agree. We would always contact the owner and advised them just how screwed they were about to be.
C4
Flat rate:
Standard diagnostic: $40
Diagnose your **** up: $70
Diagnostic should be charged if someone comes in looking to have thier stuff gone over but no actual work done.
If actual work is done then diagnostic fee is waived and hourly rates below apply.
As cruel as it may seem to apply a diagnostic fee, once people work out that it doesn't get charged if work is acrually done they will be more inclined to actually have the work done there as opposed to letting you figure out what's wrong and then taking it home to give things a workover with vicegrips and hammer.
IOW, it would iiterally be cheaper to let a pro fix it.
Labor rate:
Common tasks (aka 'dink work') : $50hr, or $30 1/2 whichever applies and 1/2 is min.
Precision tasks: $60hr, no 1/2hr rate
Fix your **** up: $70hr or $50 1/2hr
You could call the last on each a YFU surcharge.
Machine shop rate:
$100hr
Remember, this isn't just a precision task, but also takes up a precision tool for the duration of the job that might otherwise be more productive on smaller jobs. (presuming you do the work in order they come through the door, not 'wait for a window' to do X task, which just pisses people off and take thier work elswhere)
Hogging out an 80% or custom spinning a FF tube is going to take a LOT longer than flycutting a dovetail or drilling a hole to tap.
*CNC, vertical mill, horizontal mill, lathe, water jet cutter would all be precision tools.
The little benchtop drill press that everyone in the shop uses to push holes through little stuff with very little to no actual setup work required is not IMO.
*I'd not charge more for CNC work than regular hands on machining.
Agitating to most as by now people know that its all done by someone on a laptop and then once a good program is developed it will be completely repeatable and won't take any more time than dropping the part in the machine and any gumby in the shop can push the go button.
Now if someone wants development of a custom program then perhaps a blend of what a comupter geek gets + some percentage of machine shop hourly rate, or geek pay then machine shop rate for the duration of time the part is actually on the machine. (test pieces not inclusive)
FWIW, the maintenance allocation charts in the back of TM 9-1005-319-23&P give time relations to some tasks if you were looking for an actual reference to bounce time to job off like the big book of car mechanics does.
ETA machine shop rate and clarify diagnostic.
davidjinks
03-28-12, 13:37
I've seen rates from 50-120 dollars an hour. "Fair" is a relative term...what is your time really worth or the time of the smith?
As a nobody, I tend to be willing to pay more for quality regardless of who actually does it.
There's some pretty bad butchers out there who call themselves smiths and have paperwork to prove it, but that in itself doesn't merit a higher rate of pay.
I liked using a Minimum Fee for inspection to be followed up with an estimate with a proviso the estimate is only a "ballpark" and if I needed to go over it, I would call for notification/approval. I think the Minimum Fee should be a 1/2 hour of shop time. The Minimum Fee is then applied to the final charge if the work is done. I won't touch your gun with out charging the Minimum Fee. If you give away your time for free, that is what the customer will feel it is worth and will demand/expect unlimited amounts of it for that price.
.
I was in my local mechanics shop the other day and they had a sign that read:
HOURLY RATE $50
HOURLY RATE IF YOU WATCH $100
HOURLY RATE IF YOU HELP $150
HOURLY RATE IF YOU TRIED TO FIX IT YOURSELF AND THEN BROUGHT IT TO US TO FIX $200
:lol:
Now that is indeed funny. As far as your service charge, what are your skills worth in the market? How good and/or efficient are you at correctly identifying problems and fixing them permanently?
Assuming we are talking top notch (and I'd imagine we are), then you have the justification to charge a premium. But if your calendar isn't over-booked and you want to be deemed as a fair-priced but still good as they come armourer in order to generate not just business but also increase referrals, stay priced in the middle and expect a degree potentially increased business as a direct result.
Army Chief
03-28-12, 15:58
The inherent problem with trying to place a value on a gunsmith's time is that a "reasonable" hourly rate is almost totally defined by the reputation and workload of the smith in question. There are doubtless some very talented guys out there doing trigger jobs for $25/hr. in the back of gun shops all across the country, just as there are guys whose services are in such great demand that they could basically charge ten times that, and still have people lined up around the block. From the consumer perspective, it makes a lot more sense to just pay by the job. If you (as the gunsmith) say that barrel fitting is done at a flat rate of $125, and the customer agrees to the fare, then it makes no practical difference whether the job takes 35 minutes or four hours. Most of the premier smiths in the country have long since gone to packages and/or ala carte pricing by the option, and it lends a certain clarity to the process, to be sure.
The problem, of course, is that you might be troubleshooting a problem, or doing totally non-standard work from time-to-time that just isn't on the fare card -- and yes, you probably need to have some kind of general rate schedule for these kinds of projects. Is $50/hr. reasonable? Again, it might depend upon the complexity of the job to some degree, but I doubt anyone is going to find that unreasonable. Ask much less, and you're likely undervaluing your services as a skilled tradesman. Ask much more, and you probably need to have a loyal customer base and a well-known body of exceptional work. A couple of feature pieces in your favorite gun rag probably wouldn't hurt, either. It's just the nature of the game.
As you know, Joe just built me a 1911 -- one very fine weapon, as it turns out -- and we basically used the "per option" price structure to get it done. Given his skill set, I know that he gets over a bit on something like a trigger job, installing sights or fitting a mag release. The man has to eat, and I'm fine with that. Conversely, I know that no amount of money could really offset the investment of time and pure heart that that went into all of the bodywork he did on that gun (it feels very much like holding a High Power), and I probably stole those hours at $500. In the end, he delivered a gun that he can be exceptionally proud of, and that I take considerable pleasure from, and the money is all but forgotten. Would I have gotten the same sense of things had this been a "by the hour" job? Absolutely not, because both of us would have ended up fixated on (his) time and (my) costs. That may be the right way to hang mufflers, but it is woefully inadequate for the kind of work a competent smith does to a prized weapon.
The moral of the story is this: price the value of your time when you must, but quantify your expected compensation for known tasks up front whenever you can. That keeps all concerned focused right where they ought to be: on the work that is to be done.
AC
The inherent problem with trying to place a value on a gunsmith's time is that a "reasonable" hourly rate is almost totally defined by the reputation and workload of the smith in question. There are doubtless some very talented guys out there doing trigger jobs for $25/hr. in the back of gun shops all across the country, just as there are guys whose services are in such great demand that they could basically charge ten times that, and still have people lined up around the block. From the consumer perspective, it makes a lot more sense to just pay by the job. If you (as the gunsmith) say that barrel fitting is done at a flat rate of $125, and the customer agrees to the fare, then it makes no practical difference whether the job takes 35 minutes or four hours. Most of the premier smiths in the country have long since gone to packages and/or ala carte pricing by the option, and it lends a certain clarity to the process, to be sure.
The problem, of course, is that you might be troubleshooting a problem, or doing totally non-standard work from time-to-time that just isn't on the fare card -- and yes, you probably need to have some kind of general rate schedule for these kinds of projects. Is $50/hr. reasonable? Again, it might depend upon the complexity of the job to some degree, but I doubt anyone is going to find that unreasonable. Ask much less, and you're likely undervaluing your services as a skilled tradesman. Ask much more, and you probably need to have a loyal customer base and a well-known body of exceptional work. A couple of feature pieces in your favorite gun rag probably wouldn't hurt, either. It's just the nature of the game.
As you know, Joe just built me a 1911 -- one very fine weapon, as it turns out -- and we basically used the "per option" price structure to get it done. Given his skill set, I know that he gets over a bit on something like a trigger job, installing sights or fitting a mag release. The man has to eat, and I'm fine with that. Conversely, I know that no amount of money could really offset the investment of time and pure heart that that went into all of the bodywork he did on that gun (it feels very much like holding a High Power), and I probably stole those hours at $500. In the end, he delivered a gun that he can be exceptionally proud of, and that I take considerable pleasure from, and the money is all but forgotten. Would I have gotten the same sense of things had this been a "by the hour" job? Absolutely not, because both of us would have ended up fixated on (his) time and (my) costs. That may be the right way to hang mufflers, but it is woefully inadequate for the kind of work a competent smith does to a prized weapon.
The moral of the story is this: price the value of your time when you must, but quantify your expected compensation for known tasks up front whenever you can. That keeps all concerned focused right where they ought to be: on the work that is to be done.
AC
What he said
with the caveat that non-standard versions of standard options may cost more (Grant's RET loctite example, for example)
I was in my local mechanics shop the other day and they had a sign that read:
HOURLY RATE $50
HOURLY RATE IF YOU WATCH $100
HOURLY RATE IF YOU HELP $150
HOURLY RATE IF YOU TRIED TO FIX IT YOURSELF AND THEN BROUGHT IT TO US TO FIX $200
:lol:
C4
I owe you more that the $100.00 an hour. Thanks again for schooling me on both the Glock and 1911 today.:D
I owe you more that the $100.00 an hour. Thanks again for schooling me on both the Glock and 1911 today.:D
LOL. You are welcome.
C4
For AR work, an a la carte menu makes alot of sense for typical work like rail installs, barrel changes, upper builds, etc. Diagnosis & repair, on the other hand, would justify an hourly rate since you don't know what you're getting into or how long it might take. I'm in the camp that thinks the a la carte stuff should be free installation if they buy from the shop doing the work.
For AR work, an a la carte menu makes alot of sense for typical work like rail installs, barrel changes, upper builds, etc. Diagnosis & repair, on the other hand, would justify an hourly rate since you don't know what you're getting into or how long it might take. I'm in the camp that thinks the a la carte stuff should be free installation if they buy from the shop doing the work.
I understand this, but it really depends on how much profit is in the part they want installed AND how long it takes to install it.
C4
I understand this, but it really depends on how much profit is in the part they want installed AND how long it takes to install it.
C4
I agree. For example, a complete upper build could be done in approximately an hour = $50 build fee.
I'm in the camp that thinks the a la carte stuff should be free installation if they buy from the shop doing the work.
A lot of the places that offer free installation of parts you buy from them charge your MSRP or very close to it. People who give you good value (lower prices) can't afford it since they are not making it up in the price of the object.
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You could also do what my childhood dentist did when billing my family for time spent working on me: add a 'difficult handling fee' to the bill.
You could also do what my childhood dentist did when billing my family for time spent working on me: add a 'difficult handling fee' to the bill.
Hey, I like this idea! I do have some customers that are "difficult" to say the least. :D
C4
Reagans Rascals
04-05-12, 09:32
To be honest I don't use gunsmiths, I do my own work... but I have in the past and it has always been a rip-off
I was charged $55 to install a free-float rail, it took 3 weeks, and when I finally got the weapon back I could turn it with my hand, the flash hider was loose to the point of coming off, and for some reason the spring in the buffer retainer plunger was broken in 2...
I would say a gunsmith that would get my business would charge by the job and not by the hour... be up front about whats involved and how long realistically it should take, and then if any issues are encountered call me before proceeding...
I like the ala carte option, with a caveat fee for "extended services".
With the common service rifles and handguns, most jobs are a armorer-level, manufacturer-spec, parts swaps rather than true gunsmithing. Most guys calling themselves "gunsmiths" these days also seem to be armorer course certificate collectors, if even that, rather than school-trained and apprenticed gunsmiths.
Jay Crowder is my gunsmith and mostly he works on 1911's these days. He will take care of whatever else I need, but like all good smiths he's booked. He normally charges by the job, but I'm sure there's an hourly rate for machine time, etc.. Most of the pistolsmiths list their rates on websites.. Ron
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