View Full Version : How would you design a range?
Let's make some assumptions...
We can skip shotgunning, assume that's addressed elsewhere on property.
The property is 240 yards x 240 yards
you want to accommodate training as well as competition, pistol and carbine
you don't need any ancillary buildings or services, that's handled on adjacent property
If you want to do the whole ms paint or other diagram thing feel free to include it.
Voodoo_Man
03-29-12, 06:39
240y X 240y?
build a berm as high as possible, 360 degree with a "maze" style entrance so you can have slightly less than 360 degree course of fire ability.
If money wasn't an issue this is how I would want it. Crappy Paint drawing and the scale is a bit of but I think you'll get my idea.
thopkins22
03-29-12, 10:58
I would email(or take a class from) Paul Howe. I don't want to put words into his mouth but he generally has made a point of the ability to make a great range that can cover pretty much everything on a small piece of land with a small budget.
First, visit as many existing ranges as you can. Take pictures, make sketches, and ask questions—most range masters are delighted to tell you every problem they have and how they’d improve their facilities. Also, try to talk to Range Control on any nearby military facilities if you can. National Guard folks tend to be pretty mellow about this.
Second, look into your range fan. You can do a lot with 240 square yards of range space, but the fan will be your limiting factor. Even with good berms, you want a buffer of land that you own or control around your range. For instance, when Jeff Cooper built Gunsite, he bought all of the land within earshot to pre-empt problems with whiny neighbors. If I remember correctly, he sold also lots there to shooters who he trusted not to complain. I belong to a club on the outskirts of Seattle that actively encourages members to buy nearby houses for the exact same reason.
The size of the range fan depends on what you want to shoot—clearly, an M-2 Browning needs more than a 9mm handgun—but terrain and vegetation also matter. Basic issues of the max weapon range never change, but a steep, thickly wooded buffer zone around your range can soak up a lot of lead before anything gets out.
If the range fan is small or non-existent, then hosting formal competition is probably a bad idea—you’ll have people you don’t know hosing targets on your land, possibly being less than attentive about throwing a round over the berm. In that case, I’d consider a shooting house with rifle berms at 100 and 200m. Most of the rounds would be fired essentially within it, reducing problems with anything getting away, but you’d have to be very careful, especially with rifles.
If you have more space in the fan, then you could add a KD range along one side of the shooting house. I’d use one wall as an initial barrier and add a free-standing wall paralleling it so you’re essentially shooting down a tunnel. I’d also build permanent benches for zeroing rifles, and shelter the firing points for shade in the summer and cover from rain and snow in the winter.
If the range fan is unlimited, I’d consider an U-shaped berm or a 360-degree berm with opening on each end big enough that you can drive onto the range. Then you can go nuts in all of that empty space.
No matter what you do, I’d consider making the property available to local LE agencies.
Okie John
Some resources:
NRA Range Source Book
NSSF
National Association of Shooting Ranges
http://www.nssf.org/ranges/?CFID=11205585&CFTOKEN=fe9d532a9c2b36fc-C00C56C8-219B-8C60-4572600CD53A5763&jsessionid=843026cd96f9ba3e3c5b2b621f1f3e533180
I tried going into detail but it was pretty tough.
Some things I figure is having some rifle lanes that run the full length, an area that runs the full length but people advance using cover to engage targets and for various drills, shorter pistol lanes which would be no more than say 50 yards, some 3D ranges and/or shoot house, maybe some short straight ranges for other drills and instruction.
Would be easier I think if it wasn't a square. With the different spaces, berms, and all that added in it probably ends up fine though and just more complicated in my mind.
Failure2Stop
03-29-12, 19:02
See: US Shooting Academy, but add a Rogers Range.
See: US Shooting Academy,
this? (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=us+shooting+academy&hl=en&ll=36.246298,-95.906138&spn=0.010054,0.021136&safe=off&fb=1&gl=us&hq=us+shooting+academy&cid=0,0,12019567503882300301&t=h&z=16)
Failure2Stop
03-29-12, 19:53
this? (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=us+shooting+academy&hl=en&ll=36.246298,-95.906138&spn=0.010054,0.021136&safe=off&fb=1&gl=us&hq=us+shooting+academy&cid=0,0,12019567503882300301&t=h&z=16)
That's her, but I don't see the 300 meter range.
ETA: Just made full comprehension that your constraint is 240X240, therefore my input is irrelevant.
oops
lethal dose
03-29-12, 20:04
My cqb range is 200'x300 with 15' high clay retainer. Works well for me.
If you restrict how and when things can be used you could have a 300 yrd range on the diagonal.
339 yrds corner to corner.
I think the way to go would be to have a 2 sided berm in an L shape.
On both lines of the main berm start at the origin and build a perpendicular berm one side 100m from the origin and the other 150m from the origin. Have the perpendicular berms jut to 75-100 m. 2 ~ 75 - 100m ranges allowed to fire simultaneously.
In the excess of the original L shape 70 m from the first perpendicular have a 50m berm perpendicular to the L.
In the excess on the 150m side space another 50m perpendicular at 45m.
At the termination of the original L berm build another perpendicular that juts at minimum 100m for the final 50m bays.
I think this would be ideal for classes and competitions, you could very easily extend the 50m berms if you so desired for added safety and additional 100 yard ranges.
There's several different lengths and berms for safety, it could be very versatile and have several things happening at the same time in a safe manner.
Also there is a potential for the distance range at a diagonal, easily allowing for a 300m+ range.
Obviously there would have to be considerable dead space beyond the berms, but this is a perfect world I'm designed this for!
shokr, that's not bad, but it would need to be tweaked to add some pistol competition bays, typically ~20Y wide x 25-30 Y deep.
Thanks rob_s.
There's no reason after the initial perpendicular 100m berms to not add whatever smaller bays you might find beneficial. I just thought that having a dedicated 100m and 150m ranges would be ideal.
All the competitions I go to we have to tear down and set up if we want more than 2 stages, it sucks. But the range I'm a member of just added 4 more 100m pistol/rifle bays, seeding should be done this week, but still can't get on 'em for a month or two.
I'm trying to come up with layouts that work for training and matches, with bays suitable for pistol matches and carbine matches, and ideally with the ability to run more than one event in some situations.
IMO the typical bay sizes would be
Pistol comp: 30Y long x 15-20 Y wide
Pistol training: 60 Y long x 50 Y wide (can also be used for carbine comp)
Carbine training: 110 Y long x 50 Y wide (can be used for carbine comp)
Rifle training: 210 Y long x 50 Y wide (could be used for carbine comp)
I think there should be at least 6 of the pistol comp, two of the pistol training, one of the carbine training, and one of the rifle training, but I'm not sure I can fit that all in.
Rob,
Try this. It only provides for 5 bays, but you have 2 50x200 yard rifle bays, 2 70x40 pistol bays and a 90x70- 360 bay. The berms are roughly 10 yards wide and you have an external buffer around the berms. The grid is 10 yard/meter squares. You could reduce the two pistol bays and the 360 bay to get 3 30x70 pistol bays and a 90x50- 360 bay I suppose. For classes figure each shooter needs 2 y/m on the width of the firing line, so for 15 shooters in a relay you need at least 30y/m on the line. For the 200 lanes, you might be shooting a team and need 3-4 y/m per team. Smaller relays means you can do smaller lanes, but loose versitilty for the space.
For competitions you can run 5/6 stages at the same time, or 5/6 classes. Leaves you with plenty of room to run a 4 wheeler/golf cart for target duties, ect..
You could try to sqeeze more out of it, but I think you would be hard pressed to. The surronding area is also a concern when you look at noise issues and a buffer SDZ.
rob took your last parameters and tweaked 'em a bit. IMO making most of the bays 50m is a good idea. You can always step in, you can't always step back, especially if you step out of the berm cover for the safety of either bays.
This edition could have 8 ~50x50 bays, 1 75-100x45 bay and a 100m bay all shooting at the same time.
OR
3 50x50m bays, 1 75-100x45 bay and a 150m bay shooting at the same time.
Reagans Rascals
03-30-12, 12:23
240yds by 240 yds is quite large actually..... I'd make a MOUT range if I had the funds... just cheap buildings made from 2x4's and line all the walls with old tires filled with dirt....
just make a dynamic MOUT facility to practice real life situations... not partially dynamic training shooting at a steel plate while just moving back and for and side to side.....
CQB, Urban engagements, building to building, alley ways, repelling mass attacks....
you could learn a shit ton... if you had a small Urban setting where you could practice clearing houses and such... imagine using force on force with mediums such as paintball or simunitions in a makeshift town covering basically 11 acres...
240yds by 240 yds is quite large actually..... I'd make a MOUT range if I had the funds... just cheap buildings made from 2x4's and line all the walls with old tires filled with dirt....
just make a dynamic MOUT facility to practice real life situations... not partially dynamic training shooting at a steel plate while just moving back and for and side to side.....
CQB, Urban engagements, building to building, alley ways, repelling mass attacks....
I thought about the viability of a shoothouse as well. It would be very easy to build a dedicated shoothouse or couple of shoothouses in a 50x50 bay, say a bay has berms on the N,W, and E directions, you would only have to restrict fire to the SE,S and SW.
A shoothouse could and most likely would be very beneficial to any courses and courses of fire.
rob took your last parameters and tweaked 'em a bit. IMO making most of the bays 50m is a good idea. You can always step in, you can't always step back, especially if you step out of the berm cover for the safety of either bays.
You can, but it's a trade-off in that you're wasting space in a match environment where rules stipulate shots can be beyond 25 yards. That's why the 15-25 yard wide by 30 yard deep bay is a good size for competition. Not counting berms, you get two of them in the space otherwise occupied by one 50x50. You *can* set up stages using each corner of a 50x50 but it's limiting. Especially if your goal is to host major matches.
And competition shooters will drive just to be able to shoot in bays even for a monthly match because you can get the full 180 or more.
You can, but it's a trade-off in that you're wasting space in a match environment where rules stipulate shots can be beyond 25 yards. That's why the 15-25 yard wide by 30 yard deep bay is a good size for competition. Not counting berms, you get two of them in the space otherwise occupied by one 50x50. You *can* set up stages using each corner of a 50x50 but it's limiting. Especially if your goal is to host major matches.
And competition shooters will drive just to be able to shoot in bays even for a monthly match because you can get the full 180 or more.
Good point and I have to say I didn't think of it that way.
Yes, I went over my own design parameters, but they are my parameters so I can do that. :p
Thoughts on this layout? Takes up 21 Acres so depending on surroundings a 40 acre lot could be sufficient. And the 300 yard range on the left could be chopped, as well as one C bay and two P to make the whole thing smaller. The 360 is also mean to double as a carbine training bay if, for example, a travelling instructor were to come to town.
ETA:
berms are all 25' high here, with a 1:1 angle of repose, giving a 50' wide base. Notched berms to enter 360 can be constructed with block retaining walls or timbers, or even sheet piling if it's long enough (need at least 2x exposed length underground).
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/20120401rangedesign.jpg
Rob, you cheated!
That looks to be an excellent design, I'm sure some dirt movers would look at this and shake their heads. I like it!
Not too cluttered, but a lot of stuff going on in a pretty small package.
Voodoo_Man
04-01-12, 08:56
360 range of fire for the win.
Rob, you cheated!
That looks to be an excellent design, I'm sure some dirt movers would look at this and shake their heads. I like it!
Not too cluttered, but a lot of stuff going on in a pretty small package.
Not the good ones! ;)
In all seriousness, you'd just have to go about it intelligently and use relatively small machines, which would add time. Plus with the GPS-guidance systems they have for the machines now you could get it pretty accuracte.
I stole some of the idea from here (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=frostproof,+fl&hl=en&ll=27.763494,-81.430085&spn=0.007946,0.010128&hnear=Frostproof,+Polk,+Florida&gl=us&t=h&z=17)
I like your design the best although Shokr 21 has a nice way of adding the diagonal "long" bay with in the entire range. Nice either way. So, when is it being built? Where? Hopefully not in the Everglades. Side note, there is a strip of runway out in the everglades called TNT, its Dade Collier Training and Transition. The airlines used to use it for touch and gos but now it looks unused. Its a long runway (10500') but it has no facilities. I am not sure if a parcel of land like that would work or not for your range. Nothing else around there at all. 'Cept maybe some hogs and gators.
Good luck and do you have a fund going for the build?
Side note, there is a strip of runway out in the everglades called TNT, its Dade Collier Training and Transition. The airlines used to use it for touch and gos but now it looks unused. Its a long runway (10500') but it has no facilities. I am not sure if a parcel of land like that would work or not for your range. Nothing else around there at all. 'Cept maybe some hogs and gators.
Someone already got your idea (not me)
Someone already got your idea (not me)
I am not following. You mean TNT is now closed? Everything I have seen and read says its open. Interesting if someone bought the old airport and turned it into a range.
60buckscash
04-04-12, 23:59
To grow off of the picture previously posted you could add a 30yd wide berm on the long range are on one side to allow you to be able to have 2 more areas for stages if shot into the side, and it allows you to have a fixed shorter position for positive capture of bullets. On the side starting at the bottom you could have a 360 deg bay (#2) that would be about 60yds by 140. I would suggest adding a 30yd berm in the middle allowing you to use it as 2 (65yds by 30yds) if you wanted. This area would be accessed by first traveling past 6 bays (#3-8) at roughly 30yds x 50yds (3 on each side). Depending on your surrounding area you could also add 2 more pits of 50yds by 30yds (#9-10) whose back walls would be the side walls of the 6 pits, or this area could be used as parking/ready areas.
This design allows alot of different uses: 12 stages for any firearm at the same time, 200yd shooting, a 360 deg range, and multiple areas to use for safe tables.
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab276/sixtybuckscash/photobucket-4018-1333666045852.jpg
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