Aimpoint ML3: 2 or 4 minute dot?

[Wayne Dobbs]

Hey Guys,

First, I want to say what a great forum this is! There are so many crap sites out there wasting time and bandwidth, that it's great to see a place dedicated to the AR/M4 platform and attended by so many real deal guys.

I am overseas in Iraq and will be coming home in a couple of months. I am in the process of planning an M4 rifle for teaching, training and the like. It will be nothing but first class components since I learned long ago that buying cheap means you get to buy it twice (credit Pat Rogers for the saying).

I've narrowed my optic sight choice to an Aimpoint ML3 in LaRue mounts. Given the fact that shots over 200 yards will be fairly infrequent with this carbine, which dot size would you go with? Part of me (the precision shooting part) says to get the two minute dot, but that is only a 1/2 INCH size at 25 yards and that seems to be easy to lose in the clutter and stress of high speed use.

Please give me your honest thoughts for what will be a real world carbine, not a toy (well, maybe a little bit :D )

Wayne Dobbs

[USMC03]

Wayne,


I have (2) ML2's with the 4 MOA and (2) ML3's with the 2 MOA dot. I prefer the 4 MOA as it's much easier to pick up quickly.

Here is something I posted on this same subject on another board:

I perfer the 4 MOA dot instead of the 2 MOA dot. The 4 MOA dot is easier to see under extreemly bright conditions (sun reflecting off the snow, etc). Some guys get wrapped around the axel about precision shots with a 4 MOA dot. This is a non-issue because at 300 yards the dot is only 12" in diameter, not big enough to cover a man's chest. At distances over 300 yards you are going to be holding over the target, so you don't have to worry about the dot covering up your target.

I have been using the Aimpoint on entries for the last 6 or 7 years in all types of conditions....Last weekend I wast using this gun (Aimpoint ML2) to shoot steel a steel gong (18" - 24" in size) at 450 yards. I missed the first shot as I was aiming too high. I put the dot so that the bottom 1/5 of the dot was covering the top 1/5 of the target and hit the next 19 shots in a row....In the prone position my only support was using the magazine as a mono-pod:

http://www.coloradoshooting.org/usmc03%20fg1.jpg

[DocGKR]

I've used both and prefer the 2 MOA; you can always make the 2 MOA seem bigger by turning up the brightness, but you can never make the 4 MOA go smaller...

[VA_Dinger]

I personally prefer the 2 moa versions. It certianly helps at longer ranges.

[Robb Jensen]

I also prefer the 2 MOA version. I have the CompML3 2MOA and a CompM2 4MOA.

The 4 MOA is a little easier to pick up quickly in bright outdoor lighting as others have said.

Since you already know about the Larue mounts I'd say get an Aimpoint w/Larue mount. And anytime later a magnified scope (Leupold MR/T or ACOG) and a Larue mount for much longer ranges and you can swap the optics out without loosing your zeros.

[C4IGrant]

2MOA for me.


C4

[Wayne Dobbs]

Guys,

Thanks for the input! I've looked at your suggestions and been looking for similiar info elsewhere and I think I'd better find one of each and "test drive" them to make a decent decision. There are clearly pros and cons on each size dot, based on your personal experiences and the specific applications of the carbine.

I've always been an iron sight shooter on the fighting rifle platform, but as the half century mark roars up on me (in March!), I find that focusing on a front sight is getting very problematic. In addition, Pat Rogers and others have been credibly championing Aimpoints for so long that I've started listening very closely for the past couple of years and am going to select one or the other (2 or 4 MOA Aimpoint) upon my return home in a couple of months.

Thanks again!

Wayne

[Harv]

I'm with Jeff and use the 4MOA Dot. I have an Aimpoint for one reason and one reason only. Close in Death Dealing. I want a "large red dot of death" to lay on the tgt and press.. If I want to get "Out there", I have other weapon systems for that. My 14.5" Carbine is a 300 Meter gun. and with a 4MOA dot I can tag anything I see. Like Jeff I can tag a steel plate of that size pretty much all day with a 4MOA. So what does a 2MOA do for me???? Not Much. Except look smaller in Bright sunlight.

Now if I were buying an Aimpoint for the first time... I might get the 2MOA and let it bloom at closer ranges. But I think the 2MOA was to turn the Aimpoint into something it is not which is a precision long range optic.

There's nothing beyond 300 meters I need to tag I can legally justify.

[Derek_Connor]

I agree w/Jeff and Harv. It seems to be the purpose of the gun.

I just bought a 4moa Aimpoint, but its going on a 7.5 SBR..no irons, just the big red-dot for 25m and in.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

In my opinion I like the 4 MOA much better than the 2 MOA. I can't really see the need for a 2 MOA optic at the ranges the Aimpoint was designed for. The Aimpoint was not made to be a long range optic, it was made for close combat. It was made to be able to quickly bring the optic up and instantly see that fairly large 4 MOA dot and then press the trigger, placing the round within that dot. Simple and fast. Go any smaller and you may have to do some fishing around to find the dot, wasting valuable time.

It is my understanding that the 2 MOA is designed to work in conunction with the 3x Magnifier. If you plan on purchasing that then the 2 MOA version would be your best bet, but otherwise *I* would get the 4 MOA.

[C4IGrant]

In my opinion I like the 4 MOA much better than the 2 MOA. I can't really see the need for a 2 MOA optic at the ranges the Aimpoint was designed for. The Aimpoint was not made to be a long range optic, it was made for close combat. It was made to be able to quickly bring the optic up and instantly see that fairly large 4 MOA dot and then press the trigger, placing the round within that dot. Simple and fast. Go any smaller and you may have to do some fishing around to find the dot, wasting valuable time.

It is my understanding that the 2 MOA is designed to work in conunction with the 3x Magnifier. If you plan on purchasing that then the 2 MOA version would be your best bet, but otherwise *I* would get the 4 MOA.


The Aimpoint is made to shoot out to 300M's. With said, I would go with the 2MOA as you can make it into a 4MOA, but you cannot make a 4MOA into a 2MOA.

Take a carbine class where you shoot 4" plates out to 200yds and let me know how you like that 4MOA dot. :D


C4

[molsen]

Why would someone be shooting 4" plates out to 200 yds?

Listen to USMC03. He speaks from real life experience.

[KevinB]

Some of my buddies running M2 and M3's with 4MOA dots in Afghan found them to cover the tgt at 200m during combat.

Myself I think they brought the wrong optic -- but some rational can be found for the 2MOA dot.

[deadwood83]

I don't personally own a Aimpoint but i've played with both the 2MOA and 4MOA on hunting trips.

I definitely prefer the 2MOA. Like Grant said, turn the brightness all the way up and it sure seems like 4MOA. Personally I never had any trouble tagging jacks 150yards out in the snow with the 2MOA. The 4MOA was another story. It conpletely covered the head and kill zone if you were any farther than 70 yards away.

For CQC I would definitely take the 4MOA but not being in the .mil circuit, 2MOA is fine for everything else. Plus then you don't have a 24" dot at 200 yards if you use the magnifier.

[C4IGrant]

Why would someone be shooting 4" plates out to 200 yds?

Listen to USMC03. He speaks from real life experience.

I believe one shoots small targets to work on ones accuracy (aim small miss small). ;)

The logic behind the 2moa dot vs the 4moa dot is not something I came up with it was taken from several of the best combat instructors around. I am sure they speak from experience as well.



C4

[BushmasterFanBoy]

The Aimpoint is made to shoot out to 300M's. With said, I would go with the 2MOA as you can make it into a 4MOA, but you cannot make a 4MOA into a 2MOA.

Take a carbine class where you shoot 4" plates out to 200yds and let me know how you like that 4MOA dot. :D
C4

While I completly agree that for a 4 inch plate at 200 yards, the 2 MOA would be more ideal, those aren't the situations the Aimpoint was made for. If you want to work on top notch accuracy and see how small you can make your groups, the Aimpoint isn't for that.

What the Aimpoint is great for, are matches where you are shooting human Silhouettes/large gongs and you need to hit them quickly. Once again, if you in a match where you are shooting 4 inch plates at 200 yards, the Aimpoint, in any configuration just isn't the answer. The 2 MOA is trying to make the Aimpoint fill a role it was never meant to fill, and all the while making our decisions all the more complicated.

[C4IGrant]

While I completly agree that for a 4 inch plate at 200 yards, the 2 MOA would be more ideal, those aren't the situations the Aimpoint was made for. If you want to work on top notch accuracy and see how small you can make your groups, the Aimpoint isn't for that.

What the Aimpoint is great for, are matches where you are shooting human Silhouettes/large gongs and you need to hit them quickly. Once again, if you in a match where you are shooting 4 inch plates at 200 yards, the Aimpoint, in any configuration just isn't the answer. The 2 MOA is trying to make the Aimpoint fill a role it was never meant to fill, and all the while making our decisions all the more complicated.


Aimpoint's were made to shoot human size targets out to 300M's. If you can gurantee that you would NEVER shoot past 50yds then I think the 4MOA is a good choice. I don't think anyone will make that gurantee and I know that I like the ability to shoot smaller groups at longer ranges simple becasue the enemy does NOT give you full targets (you will get a head, an arm or a leg at best).

If you have not taken a 2MOA and turned up the intensity so it blooms and becomes larger dot then you need to try that first before saying the 4MOA is a better choice. The 2MOA can become a 4MOA, but the 4 cannot become a 2.


C4

[RyanB]

I can hit smallish targets with a 4 MOA dot. I turn the dot down. Then I cover the target. If I see target to the left, I correct right. I don't worry about whats under the dot, I worry about whats around it.