pictures of the burnishing caused by LT mounts [Archive]

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royta

01-01-08, 23:46

Derek_Connor

01-02-08, 01:33

I need to buy a scope mount. Sure, I'd like to eliminate any gouging of my upper by the mount, but I'm not sure if I want to buy ADM. Could I get some pictures of this so called gouging, or is it that burnishing, caused by LT mounts? The way some describe it, you'd think it would remove half the width of the rail with every closure of the levers, and others say it is only a slight polishing where it contacts. I'd like to see pictures of what is really happening. I'm hoping that it is something that I can live with, because it sounds like the LT mounts are top notch.

Accurate, high res, pictures from different angles would be appreciated. Thanks.

Roy

The VERY SMALL amount of of anodizing, if any at all, that is removed from using larue mount is MINISCULE in comparison to the piece of mind you will have knowing your shit isn't ******* **.

Key word to remember is anodizing, it is not "gouging" the rail.

Dont worry about it, you might have opened up a can of worms with your post, but the $20 you save with ADM (unproven system) is not worth it as of now.

ETA: if you are still worried about...take your rifle and scratch it with a screw driving right down the top and bottom of your receivers...then you will not have anything to worry about...Its a tool...nothing more nothing less.

royta

01-02-08, 06:20

The VERY SMALL amount of of anodizing, if any at all, that is removed from using larue mount is MINISCULE in comparison to the piece of mind you will have knowing your shit isn't ****ing up.

Key word to remember is anodizing, it is not "gouging" the rail.

Dont worry about it, you might have opened up a can of worms with your post, but the $20 you save with ADM (unproven system) is not worth it as of now.

ETA: if you are still worried about...take your rifle and scratch it with a screw driving right down the top and bottom of your receivers...then you will not have anything to worry about...Its a tool...nothing more nothing less

Why don't you just take your brand new vehicle and dent the door with a hammer, then you won't be afraid to drive it down the road. Give me a break.

I've never seen a LT mount in person, so I'm not able to see what happens to the rail when the levers are tightened. If I knew somebody local, I wouldn't have created this thread. As long as people can just follow the request of the original thread, then there will be no creation of worm cans. I am asking for pictures, not opinions.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but my goal is not to start a worm can. I am asking for pictures so I can see the marks myself. Like I said, I don't know anybody who has any LT mounts. You're very opinions are what gets people all heated up about this whole ADM vs. LT thing. Let's keep this thread civil and let's see some pictures, so idiots like myself can see for ourselves whether an LT mount will be a problem for our rifles, whether they be tools, safe queens, whatever.

Robb Jensen

01-02-08, 07:03

The LaRue mounts do knock off a TINY bit of anodizing off the receiver. It's not even anything to lose sleep over. People are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Here's close up pics of my 3gun rifle, where I use a LaRue SPR-E mount.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/LaRuemarksonreceiver005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/LaRuemarksonreceiver008.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/LaRuemarksonreceiver015.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/LaRuemarksonreceiver014.jpg

Derek_Connor

01-02-08, 07:37

Why don't you just take your brand new vehicle and dent the door with a hammer, then you won't be afraid to drive it down the road. Give me a break.

I've never seen a LT mount in person, so I'm not able to see what happens to the rail when the levers are tightened. If I knew somebody local, I wouldn't have created this thread. As long as people can just follow the request of the original thread, then there will be no creation of worm cans. I am asking for pictures, not opinions.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but my goal is not to start a worm can. I am asking for pictures so I can see the marks myself. Like I said, I don't know anybody who has any LT mounts. You're very opinions are what gets people all heated up about this whole ADM vs. LT thing. Let's keep this thread civil and let's see some pictures, so idiots like myself can see for ourselves whether an LT mount will be a problem for our rifles, whether they be tools, safe queens, whatever.

The website is about training with rifles. You train/go to classes/shoot regularly, you will scratch your rifle. Be it rubbing up against another rifle, other gear, ammo, the groud, the bench, etc. Be it accident, be it someone else, be it on purpose.

Get over it, get it done early, and act accordingly.

I can remember vividly when I first started shooting how many times my range experience was foiled by trying to cut corners and save a buck.

What I stated, as gotm4 as also displayed, isn't merely just my opinion. If it does remove anything, its "smears" the anodizing, that is it.

If having a small smear is a "problem" for "your" rifles, you should never take them out, and keep them in the safe. Only looking at them once every weekend with gloves on, preserving the original factory oil. Heaven forbid what the other people would say :rolleyes:

rob_s

01-02-08, 07:42

Derek_Connor

01-02-08, 08:27

What's wrong with giving the guy what he wants? He asked a simple question, and in turn he got his head bitten off about "tools"? C'mon.

Give him the photos and let him decide for himself if the "damage" is something he can live with or not.

:rolleyes: Truth hurts.

But to entertain...

Billet upper followed by Forged Upper, larue Aimpoint and SPR-S mounts taken/applied *MANY* times

I dont see anything, and if I did....who gives a shit. Its a rifle.

Here's your sign.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6330/img0294largele8.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9388/img0293largezn3.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4761/img0298largeod6.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8780/img0297largevs7.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6840/img0299largeag7.jpg

edwin907

01-02-08, 12:02

I move lasers, ACOGs, weaponlights, and so forth around or on and off on my rifles because, well because it's fun, and also because they are often day/night platforms.

Never had a problem with a LaRue Tactical mount or a rail doing this.
Rails are fine, mounts are fine, the rifle shoots to zero, what more could you want.

I promise you it's a non-issue.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z238/edwin907/MRPa.jpg

wahoo95

01-02-08, 13:24

Edwin...Which Quad Rail is that pictured and what kinda can is your SBR sporting?

C4IGrant

01-02-08, 14:22

I need to buy a scope mount. Sure, I'd like to eliminate any gouging of my upper by the mount, but I'm not sure if I want to buy ADM. Could I get some pictures of this so called gouging, or is it that burnishing, caused by LT mounts? The way some describe it, you'd think it would remove half the width of the rail with every closure of the levers, and others say it is only a slight polishing where it contacts. I'd like to see pictures of what is really happening. I'm hoping that it is something that I can live with, because it sounds like the LT mounts are top notch.

Accurate, high res, pictures from different angles would be appreciated. Thanks.

Roy

I will tell you how I install a LT mount. I first get the lever about finger tight (meaning my fingers turn color as I am having to apply enough pressure to open or close the lever). Once the levers are closed, I grab the mount and do a "push/pull" to see if it moves. If it does move, I tighten down the lever some more until their is no more shift. After it stops moving, I open and close the lever about 10 times to "seat it" into the rail. I then do another push/pull to check for movement and adjust the lever accordingly.
I have noticed that on mounts that get taken on an off a lot, I have to re-tighten the lever as it creates a deeper and deeper "pocket" that the lever sits in.

The reason I am telling you all this is because I believe that in order to get a LT lever to PROPERLY repeat and retain zero, you have to create a "pocket" for the lever to sit in. If this bothers you and or you view this as damaging the rail, then I would suggest that you do not buy a LT mount.

C4

Dano5326

01-02-08, 15:58

My method with the Larue mounts, almost exactly mimicks Grant's.

And, I have to comment... please no jack-ass (insert favorite company) campery here.

As this forum slants more toward actual users v. gunsafe mastabatory delusionist....

Larue, ADM, Colt, LMT, HK, Bushmaster, etc. All of these are simply tools which spit, or attach to devices which spit hot pieces O metal, all wear out. Some muchfaster than others. All uppers are disposable; 5-50K depending on make. Red dot sights wear out too. All these chunks O metal are simply functionable tools.

My buddy who is a BMW mechanic, and so buys all his own tools, has SnapOn & a bunch of other stupid expensive German Brands I don't know. Simply, a broken tool is time lost, and possibly an injury if they break at the wrong time. In his business time is $$ = billable hours. If your not a high end user, and alot doesn't count on it, buy sears tools.... who cares.

Oh my...., my brass burnished the bump on the Right side of my reciever, what to do. The park is wearing off my bolt group? buffer is scratched? etc. ad nausem.

Derek_Connor

01-02-08, 16:23

S-1

01-02-08, 17:11

As this forum slants more toward actual users v. gunsafe mastabatory delusionist....

I think I found a sigline.....
:D

(with permission of course)

ErikL

01-02-08, 18:14

So thats what that crunching noise is as I beat the throw lever down with my Gerber, the anodizing wearing off my upper. The thought of damaging the upper actually never crossed my mind. The most important thing to me is knowing the scope is staying where I put it and its not coming off until i want it to.

I have a Knights aimpoint mount that leaves a mark on receiver where the plate thing clamps the rail. Its a similar clamping method as the ADM mount sans the throw lever. I'll see if I can get some pictures of it.

Submariner

01-02-08, 18:45

ARMS makes what they call "soft" mounts.

:D

SuicideHz

01-02-08, 19:01

Derek- not to doubt you but it doesn't seem like you are getting the levers tight enough against that particular upper.

What I have is a bit of discoloration that's the same color as the lever's material. That's it. Nothing big.

I think if you tightened them down a little more, you'd get the coloring and once again, the coloring isn't a bad thing.

royta

01-02-08, 19:28

Judas freakin' Priest people!!! No crap that guns are tools. When I used to deer hunt, I can't tell you how many times I'd nick the stock against rocks and other objects much harder than wood. This isn't about that. I wanted pictures, not tool sermons.

Thank you Grant for your advice on the tightening of the mount. That helps a lot.

Oh, and Derek, yeah, it was me that created a can of worms. Whatever man. Do you just like to argue or something? What don't you understand when I say that I have never seen a LT mount in person, nor do I know anybody with one? This is why I want pictures of the marks caused by the levers of a LT mount. SO I CAN MAKE THE DECISION MYSELF BASED ON A PICTURE, NOT YOUR TOOL SERMON. Geez already!!

Jay Cunningham

01-02-08, 19:39

Everybody relax.

Derek_Connor

01-02-08, 19:50

..............

To Summarize, here we are at this particular impass:

You want to make the decision with the following stipulations

1.) You want to know how much if at all, the larue mounts "burnish" the upper receivers for your own "personal reasons"

Definition of burnishing:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This bur·nish (bûr'nĭsh) Pronunciation Key
tr.v. bur·nished, bur·nish·ing, bur·nish·es

To make smooth or glossy by or as if by rubbing; polish.
To rub with a tool that serves especially to smooth or polish.

2.) You portray your decision as important because you are not willing to accept the RISK to"burnish" aka "make smooth or glossy" your upper receiver, aka, the metal home where your BCG sits.

Against the facts that this MINOR risk, affects the function of your rifle or tool to NO extent, and that this risk has somehow taken priority over the fact that the larue mount is a battle proven optic mount that will keep your optics returned to zero if and WHEN you ever take them off inbetween your trips to the bench and the safe in your house.:confused:

Are we on the same page?

If this comes across as harsh, cold, irritating, well...sorry.

But in a sick twisted way, the attitude I and some others may portray might help you get over this HUMP and accept the fact that this insignificant RISK of possibly shining your pic. rails on your upper receiver is in fact %200 WORTH IT, due to the heart ache and bullshit you would put yourself in trying to zero your $300 aimpoint, $2000 short dot, your $2500 USO (whatever) with a mount that is not yet proven to work. Whether or not this mount fails on the range in front of friends and sends you home butt hurt, whether or not this mount fails in a competition and you lose, whether or not this mount fails and gets you killed, or gets your buddy killed, ANY side of the spectrum, why not avoid going through any of that and listen to the people who have been at this particular decision and went the correct route?

Hope this helps.

SuicideHz

01-02-08, 20:12

Derek- I know you got all fired up about this elsewhere but you really are seeming (even to me) to be getting a little out of hand.

Your weapons are tools because you kill with them.

To some other people, we don't get out as often and a lot more time is spent admiring them. And, some of us have fewer to look at and would like to take care of them.

He just wants to know what this "blemishing" is- that's all.

It was an honest question and it was turned into a fight and now the guy has to defend himself.

Let's leave it be.

jmart

01-02-08, 20:15

Now we're gettin' somewhere......;)

Boom

01-02-08, 20:17

Wait let me get the popcorn....:D

Robb Jensen

01-02-08, 20:20

Here's some more pics.

This is my wifes (9x19) 3gun rifle. The upper is finished in OD green GunKote, the mount is a LaRue SPR 1.5 1" with a Weaver 1-3x scope.

The mount rubbed off the green finish but not the anodizing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/LaRuemarksonreceiver016.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/LaRuemarksonreceiver017.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/LaRuemarksonreceiver018.jpg

This is my LMT 10" SBR with KAC RASII rail I use an Aimpoint T1 on a LaRue mount out on top of the rail.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/LaRuemarksonreceiver020.jpg

Mark LaRue

01-02-08, 21:07

I will tell you how I install a LT mount. I first get the lever about finger tight (meaning my fingers turn color as I am having to apply enough pressure to open or close the lever). Once the levers are closed, I grab the mount and do a "push/pull" to see if it moves. If it does move, I tighten down the lever some more until their is no more shift. After it stops moving, I open and close the lever about 10 times to "seat it" into the rail. I then do another push/pull to check for movement and adjust the lever accordingly.
I have noticed that on mounts that get taken on an off a lot, I have to re-tighten the lever as it creates a deeper and deeper "pocket" that the lever sits in.

The reason I am telling you all this is because I believe that in order to get a LT lever to PROPERLY repeat and retain zero, you have to create a "pocket" for the lever to sit in. If this bothers you and or you view this as damaging the rail, then I would suggest that you do not buy a LT mount.
C4

Grant, I beg to differ with you on why our LT mounts work. They repeat and retain zero because LT levers exert the same torque upon the mount-to-rail each and every time they are mounted. No magic, it's that simple.

Additionally, in regards to the "smudges", we once measured the "smudge" depths during multiple on/off testing, and those marks you see in the pics are ~0.0006" top to bottom. Please note that 0.0010" is a thousandth of an inch. A hair is ~0.0030" in diameter.

A side effect of our infinitely adjustable lever system is a fine feel for what's going on. The shooter has the tool to allow him to detect the most minute changes. There was nothing that allowed one to adjust to this fine a level before, and we stand alone. The state-of-the-art when we were first tasked with the requirement went from "give it hell tight" to just "flopping around". Differences in torque exerted define the repeatability.

As to properly adjusting LT mounts, here's the instructions we send out ... I like the angle to be 45 degrees, Bennie Cooley insists that the angle be 60 degrees, so somewhere between 45 and 60, YMMV.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii210/LaRueTactical/Lever%20instructions/AdjustingLockingLever.jpg

P.S. The note regarding the locknuts is there because it has been my lifelong experience that locknuts don't fair well with reuse. Don't take them off. The device has enough travel designed-in to accomodate any picatinny size one might encounter. Additionally, there is nothing to service in there...and you run the risk of losing stuff and having to call us, etc. 1 turn equals .032", 1/4 turn equals .008", 1/8 turn equals .004". Ultra-fine adjustment made easy.

ML

ETA - 3/8" wrenches are as common as a screwdriver, we provide a free one as a one-time convenience, so the buyer does not have to hunt for a thing when our stuff first arrives. And if someone decides sometime down the road to move the optic to another weapon, every multi-tool has a needle nose built-in and will more than suffice for the slight adjustment that might be required to properly fit the new weapon.

Mark LaRue

01-02-08, 22:10

Which scuff mark were we talking about ??

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/mfingar/Scuffmarks.jpg

usmcgrunt

01-02-08, 22:17

Which scuff mark were we talking about ??

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/mfingar/Scuffmarks.jpg

Classic! Started reading this post and didnt really know what to say! Instructions are included on how to mount and use the adjustments properly! IF you dont really like the fact that the mounts cause damage then use another product, its like anything else dont like it dont use it! Just my .02 cents!

Grunt Out!

Robb Jensen

01-02-08, 22:27

That's right. Guns are meant to be shot. Finish imperfections, wear and other stuff happens. LaRue mounts work fine despite the hate of their products from some people.
If you want Museum pieces buy a Museum.
Shoot it now, you can't take it with you when you die!

Robb

C4IGrant

01-03-08, 08:33

Grant, I beg to differ with you on why our LT mounts work. They repeat and retain zero because LT levers exert the same torque upon the mount-to-rail each and every time they are mounted. No magic, it's that simple.

Additionally, in regards to the "smudges", we once measured the "smudge" depths during multiple on/off testing, and those marks you see in the pics are ~0.0006" top to bottom. Please note that 0.0010" is a thousandth of an inch. A hair is ~0.0030" in diameter.

A side effect of our infinitely adjustable lever system is a fine feel for what's going on. The shooter has the tool to allow him to detect the most minute changes. There was nothing that allowed one to adjust to this fine a level before, and we stand alone. The state-of-the-art when we were first tasked with the requirement went from "give it hell tight" to just "flopping around". Differences in torque exerted define the repeatability.

As to properly adjusting LT mounts, here's the instructions we send out ... I like the angle to be 45 degrees, Bennie Cooley insists that the angle be 60 degrees, so somewhere between 45 and 60, YMMV.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii210/LaRueTactical/Lever%20instructions/AdjustingLockingLever.jpg

P.S. The note regarding the locknuts is there because it has been my lifelong experience that locknuts don't fair well with reuse. Don't take them off. The device has enough travel designed-in to accomodate any picatinny size one might encounter. Additionally, there is nothing to service in there...and you run the risk of losing stuff and having to call us, etc. 1 turn equals .032", 1/4 turn equals .008", 1/8 turn equals .004". Ultra-fine adjustment made easy.

ML

ETA - 3/8" wrenches are as common as a screwdriver, we provide a free one as a one-time convenience, so the buyer does not have to hunt for a thing when our stuff first arrives. And if someone decides sometime down the road to move the optic to another weapon, every multi-tool has a needle nose built-in and will more than suffice for the slight adjustment that might be required to properly fit the new weapon.

Well I think I have been using your levers for ALMOST as long as you have and I think I now how they work for ME. How I do it works and apparently how I do it is how others do it well. If you don't like how I adjust your levers, then don't do it the way I do. ;)

The depth in which the lever imbeds into the rail seems to differ depending on who made the rail. As we know, the anodizing hardness that some companies use VS another varies greatly. The less hard the anodizing is, the deeper the pocket is created. So yes, the depth will vary quite a bit IMHO.

C4

Mark LaRue

01-03-08, 09:27

How I do it works and apparently how I do it is how others do it well. If you don't like how I adjust your levers, then don't do it the way I do. ;)
C4

G-Man,

Your assumptions are incorrect. The bottom line is, in order for you to get the mount to stop forward-aft movement, you are doing nothing more than adjusting the levers until they are 45 degrees or more.

But you go ahead and think whatever it is you need to think. ;)

M. LaRue

C4IGrant

01-03-08, 09:30

G-Man,

Your assumptions are incorrect. The bottom line is, in order for you to get the mount to stop forward-aft movement, you are doing nothing more than adjusting the levers until they are 45 degrees or more.

But you go ahead and think whatever it is you need to think. ;)

M. LaRue

Yes I fully understand that. While you are creating the "45 degrees" you are ALSO creating a pocket (even if it is ever so small). I have the indents in all of my rails to prove it.

I will continue to think whateve I want. ;)

C4

Mark LaRue

01-03-08, 09:45

Yes I fully understand that. While you are creating the "45 degrees" you are ALSO creating a pocket (even if it is ever so small). I have the indents in all of my rails to prove it.

I will continue to think whateve I want. ;)
C4

G, whatever blows your skirt up, but you're wrong, a 0.0006" "pocket" as you call it, has absolutely zip to do with the reason our mounts work. :)

ML

P.S. As an aside, please know that I refuse to believe the hints I'm getting that you are the driving force behind the new mystery mounts.

C4IGrant

01-03-08, 09:58

G, whatever blows your skirt up, but you're wrong, a 0.0006" "pocket" as you call it, has absolutely zip to do with the reason our mounts work. :)

ML

P.S. As an aside, please know that I refuse to believe the hints I'm getting that you are the driving force behind the new mystery mounts.

For your mounts to repeat and retain zero, they MUST be tight. Tight enough to create in indent into the rail (or "burnish" as you like to call it).

I actually own ADM and they are working out of our shop in OH (not WI like everyone believes). I am also the guy that has your mounts knocked off in China. I am also the lead guy in the stick.org conspiracy. :rolleyes:

Just like every other dealer, ADM contacted us about stocking their products. We received the mounts just like everyone else did (already complete and ready to go). If I was the driving force behind them, I can honestly say that I would have had them make several design changes to their products before they were ever released.

C4

Mark LaRue

01-03-08, 13:00

Just like every other dealer, ADM contacted us about stocking their products. We received the mounts just like everyone else did (already complete and ready to go).
C4

Yup, looks like you are the only one of our half-dozen LaRue dealers to jump on that ADM wagon and ride.

ML

C4IGrant

01-03-08, 13:03

Yup, looks like you are the only one of our half-dozen LaRue dealers to jump on that ADM wagon and ride.

ML

Guilty as charged.

C4

Derek_Connor

01-03-08, 13:45

Yup, looks like you are the only one of our half-dozen LaRue dealers to jump on that ADM wagon and ride.

ML

quoted for prosperity.:mad:

How ironic, a thread where ML instigates others.

ML - if you dont like it that one of your dealers is selling ADM, dont post about it on an online forum, stop dealing with them instead of flaring your feathers out.:rolleyes:

Mark LaRue

01-03-08, 13:57

quoted for prosperity.:mad:

How ironic, a thread where ML instigates others.

ML - if you dont like it that one of your dealers is selling ADM, dont post about it on an online forum, stop dealing with them instead of flaring your feathers out.:rolleyes:

DC, there's certainly irony at play here.

LaRue

MR.J

01-03-08, 14:09

S-1

01-03-08, 14:20

I think there is more to it then him(Mark) being mad about Grant selling someone elses mounts, it goes deeper then that.This is just MHO.

Then it should be handled by a phone call or face to face, IMO.

C4IGrant

01-03-08, 14:29

Then it should be handled by a phone call or face to face, IMO.

Agree. Discussing dirty laundry on the errornet just makes everyone look foolish.

C4

SHIVAN

01-03-08, 14:44

Well this turn of events certainly makes my job easier. Thanks all. :D