View Full Version : Pmag and Lower problem!!
I just bought my first set of five Pmags and although I have not been able to get them out to the range yet (winter sucks) I have been running them through my weapon. Last night I developed a problem. When the bolt is closed and I have a full mag (30rnds) it will not lock up in the mag well. I tried downloading the mag to 28 and still it would not lock up. If I give it a nice healthy smack on the bottom of the mag it will lock up nice and tight. Where I am a little confused is the mag will lock up with a full 30 rnds if the bolt is locked back in the open postion. The lower that I am running is a Spikes Tactical, and the Upper is a Stag with a CMT BCG. I know there was some problems with the Pmags not locking in the M&P's but after searching the topic it seems my problem is different.
TIA
-DM-
I don't know, Dude Man.
Most people here have found the pmag to be easy to seat fully loaded... myself included.
But there's other times when the mag has bounced around in my gear box for a while, and it's difficult to seat on a closed bolt. I get this same result from USGI mags too. I suspect that the ammo shifts slightly and makes seating more difficult sometimes. :confused:
it is probably just me being anal retentive. The way I was tought to relaod a mag was to send it home with some force to make sure it seats, so I am most likely getting worked up over nothing.
-DM-
I tested the Pmags in my lowers, slight differences in them. The full mag on a closed bolt is typical, I wouldn't be overly concerned.
This is the mod that is necessary for out of spec S&W lowers. As you can see just a tiny bit of material remover from the leading edge of the top rib. File should do the job. Before filing I'd check to see if this is the area that is contacting the lower. It sounds like the front of the mag well is a bit out of spec. Hard to tell with out seeing the rifle though. Let us know.
edit....the mag on the left has been modified.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc40/hookalakupua/DSC01252.jpg
I just bought my first set of five Pmags and although I have not been able to get them out to the range yet (winter sucks) I have been running them through my weapon. Last night I developed a problem. When the bolt is closed and I have a full mag (30rnds) it will not lock up in the mag well. I tried downloading the mag to 28 and still it would not lock up. If I give it a nice healthy smack on the bottom of the mag it will lock up nice and tight. Where I am a little confused is the mag will lock up with a full 30 rnds if the bolt is locked back in the open postion. The lower that I am running is a Spikes Tactical, and the Upper is a Stag with a CMT BCG. I know there was some problems with the Pmags not locking in the M&P's but after searching the topic it seems my problem is different. TIA
-DM-
I have seen this same thing with a Sun Devil lower. What I believe it is is that the mag catch is too high up on the receiver. So what basically happens is that the rounds make contact with the BCG well before the slot on the mag makes contact with the mag catch.
To prove my point, try downloading the mag to about 20rds and see if you still see the issue.
I could also be way off and your issue is as Drake has shown.
C4
What I believe it is is that the mag catch is too high up on the receiver.C4
That is what I was thinking, that the catch is too high.
I would file the rib down. This should allow the mag to be inserted a little further.
toddackerman
01-02-08, 18:26
Well...Regardless of the cause, the effect is still the same, and so are the questions and answers IMO...
1. The Mag should seat in any Mil. Spec. lower including Sun Devil which causes me to re-think my plan to buy a Sun Devil. What other Specs. are not quite right with their lower???
2. The PMAG should not have to be modified to go in to any quality Mil. Spec. Upper, and
3. We continue to NOT see these issues with Mil. Spec. USGI Mags. (At least I'm not hearing about them.)
What is this telling us?
A. Either the Lowers exhibiting problems are not in spec., or
B. The PMAG's are not in spec.
Sounds pretty simple to me, and that is why I believe the jury is still out on PMAG's until there is a lot more field use, with the various component combinations. I have one PMAG that I am "Torture Testing" in my Bushy Lower with an LMT MRP upper, with no problems, but I wouldn't want to worry about which rifle i decide to put which Mags in at any one time. They should all fit.
To start off let me say I only have $45 bucks invested in my Mags and over $650 in my HK mags.
My two Pmags will fit and function reliably in all 4 Colt guns and 2 LMT guns. it needs a little love to get into a RRA lower and it jams more in my RRA.
Does Sun Devil have a Mil contract? does S&W have a Mil contract? does RRA have a Mil Contract? Bushmaster DPMS Mega ETC ETC. If they doint have the TDP and CNC code's for there CNC machines, how are they in spec?
Magpul being such a successful company, and possibly having military contracts for there products, it is possible they got the TDP or parts to make mags and or other products.
Granted Magpul could possibly be building mags that do not fall into the spec and a shooting buddy had 18 mags that would not function from magpul (sent them back and got replacements all of which are 100%)
Id be more leary of the lower.
I also dont recommend Pmags over HK mags. I actually recommend D&H or Okay Industries mags to anyone who asks. ( I stopped recommending HK mags due to recent issues with them, Hk building something thats not perfect:mad: )
My two PMAGS have been super reliable when used in a Colt or LMT gun. If they keep a track record like my Hk's they will replace them, however im waiting for the clear/smoke mags to be released.
7kHopper this is not intended as a slam on you and Magpul or there products. Magpul is my favorite organization to deal with. you guys are awesome. I will place a order with you guys in the next 8 days for some of your windowed Pmags.
R.Miksits
I've had a very hard time seating a 30 round Pmag in my Noveske lower at times. I'm not sure why. They are supposed to seat easily as you can actually load a 31st round into the mag.
It must have something to do with the magwell or the mag catch.
SuicideHZ you could be on to something here.
Maybe certian brands of mag catches or bolt catches are slightly diffrent causing problems?
Rob
Well...Regardless of the cause, the effect is still the same, and so are the questions and answers IMO...
1. The Mag should seat in any Mil. Spec. lower including Sun Devil which causes me to re-think my plan to buy a Sun Devil. What other Specs. are not quite right with their lower???
2. The PMAG should not have to be modified to go in to any quality Mil. Spec. Upper, and
3. We continue to NOT see these issues with Mil. Spec. USGI Mags. (At least I'm not hearing about them.)
What is this telling us?
A. Either the Lowers exhibiting problems are not in spec., or
B. The PMAG's are not in spec.
Sounds pretty simple to me, and that is why I believe the jury is still out on PMAG's until there is a lot more field use, with the various component combinations. I have one PMAG that I am "Torture Testing" in my Bushy Lower with an LMT MRP upper, with no problems, but I wouldn't want to worry about which rifle i decide to put which Mags in at any one time. They should all fit.
Keep in mind that is just ONE SD lower. Just as an FYI, I also have USGI mags that won't work in various lowers. This is somewhat common and can be casaused by several things.
IMHO, billet lowers seem to show the most fit issues with LPK's, mags, etc simply because they generally the low end of the spec vs middle of the spec.
C4
SuicideHZ you could be on to something here.
Maybe certian brands of mag catches or bolt catches are slightly diffrent causing problems?
Rob
Sometimes, the mag catch is improperly adjusted. This is of course an easy fix.
The thing to remember WITH ALL MAGS is that they need to be tested in each and every weapon. I have some USGI mags that will NOT work in some AR's, but work in others. No big deal. Same goes with PMAG's. Work great in some lowers and don't work so well in others.
C4
Sometimes, the mag catch is improperly adjusted. This is of course an easy fix.
How do you adjust the mag catch?
You can adjust the in and out amount of the mag catch IIRC but I don't think you can get it to grab mags "lower" or "higher" in the magwell...
1. The Mag should seat in any Mil. Spec. lower including Sun Devil which causes me to re-think my plan to buy a Sun Devil. What other Specs. are not quite right with their lower???
Mil spec lowers are FA, and follow the GOV mandates for production. Which Mil Spec lower have you had problems with regarding PMAGs? I've used them in numerous, and not had any issues in M16A1s, M16A2s, or M4s.
How do you adjust the mag catch?
The screw part of the magazine catch should be flush with the outer surface of the release button.
You are going to have to get a pencil and push the button in all the way and turn the mag catch in.
Well...Regardless of the cause, the effect is still the same, and so are the questions and answers IMO...
1. The Mag should seat in any Mil. Spec. lower including Sun Devil which causes me to re-think my plan to buy a Sun Devil. What other Specs. are not quite right with their lower???
2. The PMAG should not have to be modified to go in to any quality Mil. Spec. Upper, and
3. We continue to NOT see these issues with Mil. Spec. USGI Mags. (At least I'm not hearing about them.)
What is this telling us?
A. Either the Lowers exhibiting problems are not in spec., or
B. The PMAG's are not in spec.
Sounds pretty simple to me, and that is why I believe the jury is still out on PMAG's until there is a lot more field use, with the various component combinations. I have one PMAG that I am "Torture Testing" in my Bushy Lower with an LMT MRP upper, with no problems, but I wouldn't want to worry about which rifle i decide to put which Mags in at any one time. They should all fit.
The PMAG is not out of spec. It was designed around Colt magazine well dimensions.
It cannot "get" out of spec as it is injection molded, unlike an aluminum GI mag than has seams to align.
I'd dump the S&W lower. Any lower that won't accept certain magazines is not worth keeping around.
I have seen this same thing with a Sun Devil lower. What I believe it is is that the mag catch is too high up on the receiver. So what basically happens is that the rounds make contact with the BCG well before the slot on the mag makes contact with the mag catch.
To prove my point, try downloading the mag to about 20rds and see if you still see the issue.
I could also be way off and your issue is as Drake has shown.
C4
Was it a older model of SD lower? I haven't seen a problem with the last 5 I have built up.
Well...Regardless of the cause, the effect is still the same, and so are the questions and answers IMO...
1. The Mag should seat in any Mil. Spec. lower including Sun Devil which causes me to re-think my plan to buy a Sun Devil. What other Specs. are not quite right with their lower???
2. The PMAG should not have to be modified to go in to any quality Mil. Spec. Upper, and
3. We continue to NOT see these issues with Mil. Spec. USGI Mags. (At least I'm not hearing about them.)
What is this telling us?
A. Either the Lowers exhibiting problems are not in spec., or
B. The PMAG's are not in spec.
Sounds pretty simple to me, and that is why I believe the jury is still out on PMAG's until there is a lot more field use, with the various component combinations. I have one PMAG that I am "Torture Testing" in my Bushy Lower with an LMT MRP upper, with no problems, but I wouldn't want to worry about which rifle i decide to put which Mags in at any one time. They should all fit.
Todd no problem with the last 5 Sun Devil lowers I have built up with PMAGS.
Was it a older model of SD lower? I haven't seen a problem with the last 5 I have built up.
It was made about 3-4 months ago.
C4
Well after some testing with other lowers and USGI mags I have finnally come to a conclusion. I am a anal retentive pain in the ass that wants everything to work perfectly. Last night I loaded a USGI mag to 28 rounds and had the same result as I did with the Pmag. So I brought a Pmag to work and tried it on a FN A2 and a Colt 6920 and I had the same result. But the with the FN and the Colt it took a little less force to seat the mag so I am guessing it is a little bit of being a pain in the ass and my lower is possibly not mil spec. Which leads me to my next question, who makes the lowers for Spikes Tactical?
-DM-
I've had a very hard time seating a 30 round Pmag in my Noveske lower at times. I'm not sure why. They are supposed to seat easily as you can actually load a 31st round into the mag.
It must have something to do with the magwell or the mag catch.
SuicideHz, Let me start by saying that I own and like Noveske products. Now, I have personally seen a small number of sequential serial numbered Noveske lowers that were not in spec in relation to the pistol grip mount. So it is possible that other sections of the lower were not quite in spec. That may be the cause in your lower.
As for the OP, I have not had any problems using Pmags in my Colt or LMT lowers. Thanks, Wes
Last night I loaded a USGI mag to 28 rounds and had the same result as I did with the Pmag.
-DM-
You should always download to 28 on USGI mags.
I have never had a problem with PMAGS in Sun Devil lowers and today at the range I had to download to 27 to get a brand new DE Pmag to load on a closed bolt.
You should always download to 28 on USGI mags.
That I know. I stated I loaded them cause that is the standard for the USGI mags and 30 is the standard for the Pmags.
In any event I was bored as all hell I went to work tonight and I tried the filing trick, what a difference that made it being able to seat the mag. Thanks Drake for the tip, it worked out perfectly.
-DM-
Deleted. Forget about it. no point of arguing.
why should the guy need to spend half a day in the garage doing work for stuff he paid for already????
Half a Day? It took me about 10 min to file five of them down!
That I know. I stated I loaded them cause that is the standard for the USGI mags and 30 is the standard for the Pmags.
In any event I was bored as all hell I went to work tonight and I tried the filing trick, what a difference that made it being able to seat the mag. Thanks Drake for the tip, it worked out perfectly.
-DM-
Glad to hear that worked. This leads me to believe that the magwell might be off a touch.
C4
Apparently the black one and the Tan one are of difference sizes. The tan will drop free while the black are tight in the magwell,even though they have the same date stamp. How many samples are we talking about? 3 out of 6 lowers - and the black ones are tight for the current LMT, colt and bushmaster, and ok for some newer bushmaster and current STAG. When he said tight, he had to yank them out of the LMT lower.
My friend wasn't too impressed. So apparently one mold is thinner than the other.....and no one know which is which becaue the date stamps are the same! My friend was not too happy when magpul told him just to sand them down with pdf instruction...why should the guy need to spend half a day in the garage doing work for stuff he paid for already????
Mags and magwells have an allowable variance. Sometimes the mage might be at the high end of the spec and the lower at the low end (or vice versa).
Alum mags with the same date stamp can vary a lot as well. This is fairly normal.
C4
Apparently the black one and the Tan one are of difference sizes.
...all this about dimensions made me paranoid and I couldn't get to the range...so, I measured the black p-mags from the LAV class (thanks Magpul) and the new FDE Maglevels from Brownells..
You were right...
The black measured .891-.903.5
The FDE measured .891-.903
Both showed exactly 2.530...That's amazing consistency...
Black mfg date = 08-07
FDE mfg date = 10-07...
All seat and drop free properly...from MY 6920...YMMVhttp://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif
Glad to hear that worked. This leads me to believe that the magwell might be off a touch.
C4
That is the way I am taking it. It is a nice little thing to keep in mind when I start the next build.
Deleted - there is no point of arguing. Nothing can be done anyways
Cabinetman
01-21-08, 13:58
The PMAG is not out of spec. It was designed around Colt magazine well dimensions.
It cannot "get" out of spec as it is injection molded, unlike an aluminum GI mag than has seams to align.
I'd dump the S&W lower. Any lower that won't accept certain magazines is not worth keeping around.
Are you sure that a Pmag can't be out of spec? I bought one mag to try with a S&W and it did not fall free and felt very tight when inserting it. This was disappoiniting since my M&PT was one of the more recent builds that was supposed to be fixed, but i assumed it was an out of spec lower. I ended up selling the Smith and bought a LE 6920 and tried the Pmag and had the same results I had with the S&W. I also bought a Lauer lower that is made by LMT and the Pmag wont drop free. At this point I'm thinking I got an out of spec magazine. I'm not bashing the Pmag I am just saying sometimes even injection molded parts can be a little out of spec.
Are you sure that a Pmag can't be out of spec? I bought one mag to try with a S&W and it did not fall free and felt very tight when inserting it. This was disappoiniting since my M&PT was one of the more recent builds that was supposed to be fixed, but i assumed it was an out of spec lower. I ended up selling the Smith and bought a LE 6920 and tried the Pmag and had the same results I had with the S&W. I also bought a Lauer lower that is made by LMT and the Pmag wont drop free. At this point I'm thinking I got an out of spec magazine. I'm not bashing the Pmag I am just saying sometimes even injection molded parts can be a little out of spec.
Shoot eric an email at eric@magpul.com. Explain what is going on and he'll do what he can to help you out. Thanks.
Cabinetman
01-21-08, 14:32
Shoot eric an email at eric@magpul.com. Explain what is going on and he'll do what he can to help you out. Thanks.
Thanks for the offer, but I used a little sand paper and got the mag working. I have no doubt Magpul would make things right had I opted to return the magazine. I've had nothing but great experiences with Magpul products and I'm definitely not going to let one Pmag change my opinion of the company.
Deadcenter45
01-21-08, 14:58
Hrm ... 5 ten thousandths of an inch ... or in other words, one 2 thousandths of an inch. that IS amazing .
...all this about dimensions made me paranoid and I couldn't get to the range...so, I measured the black p-mags from the LAV class (thanks Magpul) and the new FDE Maglevels from Brownells..
You were right...
The black measured .891-.903.5
The FDE measured .891-.903
Both showed exactly 2.530...That's amazing consistency...
Black mfg date = 08-07
FDE mfg date = 10-07...
All seat and drop free properly...from MY 6920...YMMVhttp://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif
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