View Full Version : How would you know?????
As many know, I own a gun shop. I also teach BASIC pistol classes (monthly) where I see over 30 + students. On top of this, I read gun forums (a lot of gun forums). One thing I see, hear and read a lot is people making mention of the fact that such and such brand of gun just "Doesn't fit their hand well OR Has too much muzzle flip."
From what I see with many shooters (both in my store and on the range) is that they do not hold the pistol correctly. The common "styles" I see the most are the "cup and saucer" and the "Martin Riggs" grip. Hands too low, not forward enough, thumbs in wrong places or large separation between hands. When you learn to shoot from the TV or Movies, you get what you get (which is usually wrong).
Gripping the pistol improperly does NOT give you the true feel of the gun. Shooting the pistol with an improper grip will commonly give you incorrect feedback on its recoil and or muzzle flip.
My suggestion to anyone that has NEVER taken a single pistol class from a quality firearms instructor (one that teaches you how to grip your pistol) is to STOP shopping for a new pistol! You don't know what you are looking for and are most likely getting false feedback because of your lack of knowledge.
This concludes our public service announcement. :D
--Break Break--
Now for the RANT! If I read one more comment about someone not being able to shoot a Glock (for instance) because of the grip, I am killing a kitten! I got a news flash for you! IT IS ALL IN YOUR HEAD. That's right, that thing between your ears is telling you that you cannot shoot such and such gun because of the grip, trigger, sights, etc when in fact, the reason you do not shoot that gun well is because you have NO TRAINING!
I own and shoot (pretty well), the following pistols:
HK P7M8
SIG P5
WC 1911
M&P 9mm FS
M&P 45 Mid
Walther PPS
Walther PPQ
Glock GEN 2 G19
Glock GEN 2 G17
Glock GEN 3 G19
Browning HP
S&W 3953
Are all the above pistols different? Yep, sure are. Do you have to adjust how you hold them and where you place your fingers? Yep, sure do. Do they ALL have different trigger pulls that vary greatly in length, feel and weight? For sure!
Morale of the story? If you have a solid foundation on how to properly hold a pistol and how to manipulate the trigger straight to the rear, YOU can shoot any pistol well!!!
*Note* I fully understand that we all like different things and some guns are just going to fit your hand size better than others. So a pistol that has a medium sized grip is going to fit better with someone that has medium sized hands. For the most part though, all pistols will fit well in the majority of male shooters hands.
C4
ICANHITHIMMAN
04-02-12, 09:49
Good post Grant. I must say when I first started out I suffred from the same mentality, but years of experience have taught me the lesson you just laid out. When ever I have a friend who want to buy there first gun it allways starts with a trip to the range on their dime with my pistols. Basic shooting instruction
I give that a serious golf clap. Well done, sir.
What you're describing is the most common "complaint" I get with Glock pistols. Next to "They're plastic!".
I'm assuming that's the main place you're getting them too?
Doc Safari
04-02-12, 09:51
Although I agree with you that anyone can adapt to just about any grip configuration, my "preference" is based on the fact that I have fat hands with stubby fingers. If my middle finger and thumb can't just almost touch when wrapped around the grip of the gun, then the grip is too large "for my preference." I base this on years of experience, and in the same way I choose not to own a long gun where I have to put my nose almost right up against the rear of the receiver/charging handle/receiver cover/sight base, etc., I choose not to own a handgun that doesn't allow those two fingers to almost touch.
Having said that, I love Glocks, just not the .45 Glocks because the grip is larger.
I'm with you on this on Grant! A lot of people ask me what kind of pistol I recommend them to get for ______ and for _______. The first thing I tell them is, learn to shoot one then decide.
Anyway....a moment of silence for the kittens......
If I read one more comment about someone not being able to shoot a Glock (for instance) because of the grip, I am killing a kitten!
LOL! I wasn't expecting that from you and snorted coffee out of my nose.
This is great, Grant. I used to be in the "doesn't FEEL right" camp about Glocks. Bought everything but Glocks over the last 15 years but kept looking for the perfect pistol.
Finally said what the hay, got a Gen 3 G17, got some better training, committed the money the enough ammo to actually see the benefit of repetition, and in 3 months became twice the pistol shooter I ever was on the one gun that never FELT right. The G17 is now my new EDC carry gun until I rehab (springs) an older used Gen 3 G19 I just found.
Spot on... thanks.
Good post Grant. I must say when I first started out I suffred from the same mentality, but years of experience have taught me the lesson you just laid out. When ever I have a friend who want to buy there first gun it allways starts with a trip to the range on their dime with my pistols. Basic shooting instruction
Good man!
C4
What you're describing is the most common "complaint" I get with Glock pistols. Next to "They're plastic!".
I'm assuming that's the main place you're getting them too?
I think the "plastic" comments generally come from from older shooters (55+) as they have only known metal guns.
C4
LOL! I wasn't expecting that from you and snorted coffee out of my nose.
This is great, Grant. I used to be in the "doesn't FEEL right" camp about Glocks. Bought everything but Glocks over the last 15 years but kept looking for the perfect pistol.
Finally said what the hay, got a Gen 3 G17, got some better training, committed the money the enough ammo to actually see the benefit of repetition, and in 3 months became twice the pistol shooter I ever was on the one gun that never FELT right. The G17 is now my new EDC carry gun until I rehab (springs) an older used Gen 3 G19 I just found.
Spot on... thanks.
Glad I was able to help with the cleansing of your nasal cavity. :D
While I used Glock's as the reference gun, I hear this same complaint in regards to the M&P (one of the most shootable pistols made). This just blows my mind.
C4
Mauser KAR98K
04-02-12, 10:03
Hey Grant,
I don't like shooting Glocks because they don't fit my hand.:D
Bye bye, Kitten.
Hey Grant,
I don't like shooting Glocks because they don't fit my hand.:D
Bye bye, Kitten.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Kitten.jpg
C4
I agree with most everything you said, except for one that I am respectfully disagree with, The Glock grip.
It's not the grip circumference nor size, but rather the angle of it. If I extend my right hand out and point at something with my index finger (the palm of my hand facing left and the back of my hand facing right), that is my natural grip angle. Now, if you put a Glock in my hand, without forcing my index finger to point downward, the muzzle would be pointing up.
Yes, it can be over come with more training and practice just like many other training related issues, but it doesnt change the fact that it isn't valid and very annoyed for many, myself included.
maddawg5777
04-02-12, 10:23
Nice post Grant, I agree 100% that people dont know what they dont know and follow along with what they read on the net with no first hand exp. But because I hate cats.....I dont use Glocks cause they dont fit my hand lol. In reality I dont like they way they feel and much prefer the M&P but alas I own a Beretta, so maybe my thoughts dont matter much in the long run.
I agree with most everything you said, except for one that I am respectfully disagree with, The Glock grip.
It's not the grip circumference nor size, but rather the angle of it. If I extend my right hand out and point at something with my index finger (the palm of my hand facing left and the back of my hand facing right), that is my natural grip angle. Now, if you put a Glock in my hand, without forcing my index finger to point downward, the muzzle would be pointing up.
Yes, it can be over come with more training and practice just like many other training related issues, but it doesnt change the fact that it isn't valid and very annoyed for many, myself included.
I fully understand what the Glock grip does to one's hand. With that said, at the end of the day, all that matters is that the sights are on target and you manipulate the trigger straight to the rear.
I also understand this thing called a "mental block." Once someone gets it into their head that they cannot shoot a certain gun, they will never be able to.
For me, I approach every pistol with the thought that I CAN & WILL shoot it well.
C4
Nice post Grant, I agree 100% that people dont know what they dont know and follow along with what they read on the net with no first hand exp. But because I hate cats.....I dont use Glocks cause they dont fit my hand lol. In reality I dont like they way they feel and much prefer the M&P but alas I own a Beretta, so maybe my thoughts dont matter much in the long run.
http://vimeo.com/4702737
I agree that a novice shooter would benefit not buying until they have tried different pistols, but I think most of the complaints come from experienced "bashers".
I'll admit to being a glock hater at one point in time. I had only shot maybe a magazine or 2 through a gen2 g17, that was my experience.
When I decided I wanted to carry, my 1911 and 92 just weren't gonna do it for me. I talked to my friends, who collectively owned a xd9mm a M&P9mm and a g19 and g22. I shot all of them, over 150 rounds each (not a lot but college kid test if you will). I shot all rather similar, but preferred the M&P and the g19. Those were my two choices, then price and availability of support items locally came into play. The glock won hands down.
I'm happy with my ~3 month old g19, it hiccuped out of the box, but it's running well with ~1300 rounds though the tube thus far. I like it so much I'm considering another 19 or possibly a 17.
Great post, until you have something in your hand and give it a fair honest assessment with no preconceived notions you will never know if it's right for you or not.
For me, I approach every pistol with the thought that I CAN & WILL shoot it well.
C4
Yep!, that's what I did. After I got pass the fact, I ended up shoot some local matches with the G34 and even carried the G19 at one time( that OD G19 still is one of the most accurate handgun I ever shot).
I, have since, found a new favorite and moved on. Plus, I also own a cat now and I'd like to keep him around. :D
I agree with most everything you said, except for one that I am respectfully disagree with, The Glock grip.
Amen. Isn't that the one area that most serious, educated shooters end up "fixing".
My "feel" and acceptance for what I like really have not changed as long as I've been shooting.
I've shot Glocks, Brownings, Walther, H&K, S&W, Ruger, High Standard, Sig, Colt ( and clones ), Beretta, CZ, and probably something I have forgotten. Also owned most of them. I have had at least some basic training with master level shooters and studied quite a bit of other stuff.
My preferences and opinion have barely changed at all. ---especially-- the Glock grip. I have nothing against Glock pistols. I might even buy another some day, but I will have the grip fixed so I can actually hold on to it when it's 90 degrees and 85% humidity.
I want......
1911 aesthetics
1911 Trigger
Plastic Pistol weight
H&K mag release
Mid size with full size accuracy and control ability
Plastic pistol reliability
Ease of disassemble for field strip and detail strip.
Slide that feels like it runs on ball bearings and has a "push straight back" recoil feel like a Model 52.
I agree with a lot of what Grant says but there are some funky pistols on the market and while Glock is a wonderful thing, it ain't perfect and I think that is manifested in many people's initial comments and it doesn't necessarily mean their observations are incorrect.
Run kitty run!!!
Haha. One kitten down only a billion to go. J/K kind of.
Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk
Dang it, Grant, you could have used roaches instead of kittens..
As many know, I own a gun shop. I also teach BASIC pistol classes (monthly) where I see over 30 + students. On top of this, I read gun forums (a lot of gun forums). One thing I see, hear and read a lot is people making mention of the fact that such and such brand of gun just "Doesn't fit their hand well OR Has too much muzzle flip."
From what I see with many shooters (both in my store and on the range) is that they do not hold the pistol correctly. The common "styles" I see the most are the "cup and saucer" and the "Martin Riggs" grip. Hands too low, not forward enough, thumbs in wrong places or large separation between hands. When you learn to shoot from the TV or Movies, you get what you get (which is usually wrong).
Gripping the pistol improperly does NOT give you the true feel of the gun. Shooting the pistol with an improper grip will commonly give you incorrect feedback on its recoil and or muzzle flip.
My suggestion to anyone that has NEVER taken a single pistol class from a quality firearms instructor (one that teaches you how to grip your pistol) is to STOP shopping for a new pistol! You don't know what you are looking for and are most likely getting false feedback because of your lack of knowledge.
This concludes our public service announcement. :D
--Break Break--
Now for the RANT! If I read one more comment about someone not being able to shoot a Glock (for instance) because of the grip, I am killing a kitten! I got a news flash for you! IT IS ALL IN YOUR HEAD. That's right, that thing between your ears is telling you that you cannot shoot such and such gun because of the grip, trigger, sights, etc when in fact, the reason you do not shoot that gun well is because you have NO TRAINING!
I own and shoot (pretty well), the following pistols:
HK P7M8
SIG P5
WC 1911
M&P 9mm FS
M&P 45 Mid
Walther PPS
Walther PPQ
Glock GEN 2 G19
Glock GEN 2 G17
Glock GEN 3 G19
Browning HP
S&W 3953
Are all the above pistols different? Yep, sure are. Do you have to adjust how you hold them and where you place your fingers? Yep, sure do. Do they ALL have different trigger pulls that vary greatly in length, feel and weight? For sure!
Morale of the story? If you have a solid foundation on how to properly hold a pistol and how to manipulate the trigger straight to the rear, YOU can shoot any pistol well!!!
*Note* I fully understand that we all like different things and some guns are just going to fit your hand size better than others. So a pistol that has a medium sized grip is going to fit better with someone that has medium sized hands. For the most part though, all pistols will fit well in the majority of male shooters hands.
C4
Excellent post sir.
So, I agree that a novice shooter would benefit not buying until they have tried different pistols, but I think most of the complaints come from experienced "bashers".
I'm a dog guy, but please spare the kittens.:)
Problem is that a new shooter probably won't understand the differences. I don't think you can have a preference in something you don't yet understand, if that makes sense. I'm certainly for rent to try. But in the end, if a novice needs a recommendation, I would say buy a 9mm Glock or a 9mm M&P. Both are excellent pistols for a minimum amount of money. And I don't think they should buy Apex triggers or match grade barrels etc. Shoot the gun stock for awhile. After gaining some experience, more renting; and at that point if the shooter thinks a Sig, HK, 1911 etc. will work better for him, he can sell the Glock or Smith at a minimal loss and buy a different gun. They're excellent guns that are fairly inexpensive and hold their value well on the used market.
Amen. Isn't that the one area that most serious, educated shooters end up "fixing".
My preferences and opinion have barely changed at all. ---especially-- the Glock grip. I have nothing against Glock pistols. I might even buy another some day, but I will have the grip fixed so I can actually hold on to it when it's 90 degrees and 85% humidity.
What I think you're talking about is stippling or a grip sleeve because the grip is somewhat slick. What others are talking about is the grip angle throws them off when they shoot. They're saying rounds don't go where they want them to because of the grip angle. I run a grip sleeve on my Glock for the exact reason you're talking about. Too slick without it.
I HATE how the glock feels in my hand yet I can shoot it quite well.
You cant argue with results.
One can learn to shoot anything
itllgrowback
04-02-12, 13:09
My wife and I are shopping for a handgun for her (and by shopping, I mean shooting). In the last three weeks alone, she's shot a P229, P239, P226, H&K P30, M&P, Walther PPS, and my USP - and she recognizes the differences between them. To say it doesn't matter - that she should be able to shoot any of them well - misses the point.
There are significant differences between them, even once you've narrowed it down to three or four manufacturers. We're shooting them all so we know which one to train on.
I agree that to be a better shooter, shoot more and take training - rather than expecting a different gun to fix your bad habits. I also agree that a trained shooter knows better what to look for. But to say that "it's all in your head" is silly.
Ergonomics matter; evidenced by everything, everywhere.
I've just never liked Glocks. Can't warm up to them. It's not that I can't shoot them, it's not that I won't shoot them. They feel thick & blocky and the trigger feels like pulling on a staple gun. There are other reasons I don't like them that have nothing to do with shootability.
I don't care for the Berratta 92F either. By the time you carry something that big, it might as well be a 45. Even as a 45 the grip is too fat for my preferences.
There are pistols I have trouble shooting adequately but they tend to be small with truly horrible triggers. Not that I'm much good as a pistolero. I was very happy when I recently broke 14 clay pigeons with 15 shots out of my new 9mm at roughly 10 yards!
We're blessed as a nation having so many different firearms and calibers to choose from. We can argue how an AR compares to an AK or SCAR, how a Glock compares to a 1911 or M&P or even a revolver and split hairs over which caliber is best. Folks in other countries are lucky of they can afford even one firearm and their choices are very limited. They have to learn to shoot what they've got.
Grant is dead on. It's a mental game. If you decide you can't shoot a certain pistol, or can only shoot a certain pistol it's because you have decided is true. This isn't the same as focusing on a single pistol in order to use it to the best of your ability. It's just about being able to pick up any pistol of a reasonable design and applying the fundamentals with each shot
"pulling a staple gun".... Hahahahahahahahahaha... Classic... Ron
Problem is that a new shooter probably won't understand the differences. I don't think you can have a preference in something you don't yet understand, if that makes sense.
Totally agree. If you don't know what you don't know (meaning how to even properly hold the gun), how can you know if it is a good fit for you??
This is why so many people make poor choice when buy a firearm. They first go off of cost and then looks. Neither of these are good ways to pick a gun.
C4
maddawg5777
04-02-12, 13:19
I've just never liked Glocks. Can't warm up to them. It's not that I can't shoot them, it's not that I won't shoot them. They feel thick & blocky and the trigger feels like pulling on a staple gun. There are other reasons I don't like them that have nothing to do with shootability.
I don't care for the Berratta 92F either. By the time you carry something that big, it might as well be a 45. Even as a 45 the grip is too fat for my preferences.
There are pistols I have trouble shooting adequately but they tend to be small with truly horrible triggers. Not that I'm much good as a pistolero. I was very happy when I recently broke 14 clay pigeons with 15 shots out of my new 9mm at roughly 10 yards!
We're blessed as a nation having so many different firearms and calibers to choose from. We can argue how an AR compares to an AK or SCAR, how a Glock compares to a 1911 or M&P or even a revolver and split hairs over which caliber is best. Folks in other countries are lucky of they can afford even one firearm and their choices are very limited.
Grant is dead on. It's a mental game. If you decide you can't shoot a certain pistol, or can only shoot a certain pistol it's because that's because you've decided is true. This isn't the same as focusing on a single pistol in order to use it to the best of your ability. It's just about being able to pick up any pistol of a reasonable design and applying the fundamentals with each shot
Think you hit the nail on the head. When I joined the service the only pistol I had ever shot was a 1911. I hated the M9 with a passion. After years of use and training now I love it. Id rather have a gun that feel like crap in my hand but is reliable than one that "feels" perfect but doesn't go bang. I can train around how it feels or grip angles and such, its just a matter of how much time you spend on it.
I agree with most everything you said, except for one that I am respectfully disagree with, The Glock grip.
It's not the grip circumference nor size, but rather the angle of it. If I extend my right hand out and point at something with my index finger (the palm of my hand facing left and the back of my hand facing right), that is my natural grip angle. Now, if you put a Glock in my hand, without forcing my index finger to point downward, the muzzle would be pointing up.
Yes, it can be over come with more training and practice just like many other training related issues, but it doesnt change the fact that it isn't valid and very annoyed for many, myself included.
As a longtime Glock competition shooter, I'll go out on a limb and say that if you're holding a Glock comfortably, you're not doing it right. As a matter of fact, regardless of pistol type, good technique and "comfort" have little in common for the most part. You need to be inducing force on various surfaces and angles in order to effectively control and mitigate recoil.
The stock Glock grip feels too blocky for me as well. I prefer it with 360 degrees of grit tape or a grip reduction to maximize surface contact and control. Fortunately, Glocks are cheap and so are grit tape and reductions.
Ergonomics have little to do with feel and comfort when applied to pistols. It's more important that the gun be controllable and all the controls be placed logically and are easy for the shooter to reach and manipulate. Even the longest course of fire or defensive scenario is going to encompass a minute or less of actually applying force to the gun. Comfort should be way down on the list of needs in a defensive pistol.
Sorry but this thread reminded me of some advice I was given a couple of years ago and I thought it applied here as well:
When picking a pistol, always use the C-cup Titty method.
:D
You really have to be dedicated to be proficient with H&K's LEM, even though
it feels good in my hand.
Expensive learning curve, but one I'm willing to do.
I can shoot most any pistol well, just some are easier to shot well..
vicious_cb
04-02-12, 16:35
Grant, you should a youtube video about this like one about choosing a quality AR.
Yeah, compared to a DA revolver switching to the Glock grip angle from 1911s and Hi Powers was no big deal. I can also shoot pretty well with just about anything I own, from an LCP to a S&W 41 Magnum.
My first exposure to Glocks was a Gen 3 Glock 19 I bought in ~2006, when I was mostly using an index and 1911s instead of using my sights properly. Oh, those were silly days. I got really good at making hits out to around 15 yards without using my sights at all with a 1911, but since I was so reliant on the way my body felt in relation to the target I couldn't really use my Glock 19.
Nowadays I can pick up a Glock, and 1911, or an N-frame randomly and do a proper press out with all of them cold. When I focus on the front sight and drop it into the rear notch, my body just sort of adjusts to the proper form for that pistol. Thousands of reps with each helps of course, but I don't have any significant problem switching to a new platform, like the Sig P228 I picked up a couple months ago for my dad.
My wife and I are shopping for a handgun for her (and by shopping, I mean shooting). In the last three weeks alone, she's shot a P229, P239, P226, H&K P30, M&P, Walther PPS, and my USP - and she recognizes the differences between them. To say it doesn't matter - that she should be able to shoot any of them well - misses the point.
There are significant differences between them, even once you've narrowed it down to three or four manufacturers. We're shooting them all so we know which one to train on.
I agree that to be a better shooter, shoot more and take training - rather than expecting a different gun to fix your bad habits. I also agree that a trained shooter knows better what to look for. But to say that "it's all in your head" is silly.
Ergonomics matter; evidenced by everything, everywhere.
No one is arguing that we all have preferences and as I said earlier, I think you need some experience to work those things out. Having said that, I'll say what you just said which is different hardware won't fix a software problem. And that's really the point. It's a pistol, basics are the same on all of them. The mechanics that make up a good pistol shooter do not change with the gun. Good grip, good sight alignment, good trigger manipulation equals good shot. Same for every pistol.
Preferences are a different thing. As MistWolf just said, he can shoot Glocks, but it just isn't his favorite pistol. That's different than saying I don't hit my target because of the Glock grip angle. That's a software problem. And way too many shooters blame their hardware for software issues.
Dionysusigma
04-02-12, 17:43
It is not "personal preference," "poor/no training," or "mental block" when the ridges between the finger grooves land right in the middle of your finger.
Now for the RANT! If I read one more comment about someone not being able to shoot a Glock (for instance) because of the grip, I am killing a kitten! I got a news flash for you! IT IS ALL IN YOUR HEAD.
OK, go out and kill a kitten. You are painting with a really wide paint brush. Once upon a time, I decided to join my friends in some GSSF competition. I have some mobility issues in my wrists and the Glocks just point naturally high. I countered that problem by doing stretching exercises every morning with my wrists. You know, rotating the wrists forward such that when I open my support hand my fingers would make a 45 degree angle with the ground. I got to the point where I was doing decent.
As my arthritis got worse, it became more and more difficult to cozy up to the grip angle of the Glock. I spoke with another shooter who does decent with a Glock (a former Limited 10 National Champion) and he suggested making some changes with elbow position to make up for the high grip angle. I tried that for a while and it worked sort of kind of OK. Still, the Glock just wasn't the best fit for me in the ergonomics department.
The following spring I was squadded with 4 USPSA Grandmaster Glock shooters at an IPSC match and I looked to them for advice. One of them was Dave Sevigny...I'll stop there.
My point is pretty simple. A pistol's ergonomics may not be a decent fit for some shooters, period. To tell me it's in my head is a bit of a reach.
OK, go out and kill a kitten. You are painting with a really wide paint brush. Once upon a time, I decided to join my friends in some GSSF competition. I have some mobility issues in my wrists and the Glocks just point naturally high. I countered that problem by doing stretching exercises every morning with my wrists. You know, rotating the wrists forward such that when I open my support hand my fingers would make a 45 degree angle with the ground. I got to the point where I was doing decent.
As my arthritis got worse, it became more and more difficult to cozy up to the grip angle of the Glock. I spoke with another shooter who does decent with a Glock (a former Limited 10 National Champion) and he suggested making some changes with elbow position to make up for the high grip angle. I tried that for a while and it worked sort of kind of OK. Still, the Glock just wasn't the best fit for me in the ergonomics department.
The following spring I was squadded with 4 USPSA Grandmaster Glock shooters at an IPSC match and I looked to them for advice. One of them was Dave Sevigny...I'll stop there.
My point is pretty simple. A pistol's ergonomics may not be a decent fit for some shooters, period. To tell me it's in my head is a bit of a reach.
AGREED!
Ergonomics DO matter.
I can shoot any pistol decent some MUCH better than others though.
As far as new gun owners go, training is very important. But if the pistol they end up choosing is not a good "fit" for them then they simply won't train.
We do have choices. If Glock were the be all, end all in pistols then why do other manufactures keep coming out with new designs? Why do they sell? For that matter why is there a 4th Gen Glock if they were "Perfect" from the get go? I used to carry a G23 daily and could shoot it quite well. It was replaced with something I could shoot better because it fit me better.
I understand the OP's point about people needing to train. I agree with it. But honestly a Mom with 4 kids, a job and a household to run will not take the time she should take to train. So why not give her the best fitting pistol from the get go, so if she ever does have to use it to defend her life she has the best odds of being successful?
Well I am sure this has doomed a few kittens. Sorry Kitties.
R3V3LATIONS
04-02-12, 18:54
Grant, there is some seriously good material here. +1 man :D
Now...for the rant...
The OP's post was not from a place of firearm manufacturer's myope...
The point is that if one develops solid fundamentals, that those fundamentals are highly transferable between weapon systems. Obviously, if you train all the time (properly) with good instruction on a glock (for example) and then shoot an M&P, your performance will be different, yes, but the better fundamental base you have, the less noticeable the difference will be evident downrange when in the hands of the physically able, responsible, trained shooter. Attend a Vickers course, he makes you switch firearms with your neighbors to reinforce this point.
Another made the point about "prescribing firearms". Nowhere was that implication made. If you have an easy, more enjoyable time with a "more comfortable" system, good...go out, train, and enjoy shooting. However, does this mean you are UNABLE to perform as well on different firearms? No, it just means, given the choice, you chose differently for the preference of comfort. With a good base, as Grant mentions, you can achieve the majority of your goals on many mechanically sound operational firearms.
I don't tea cup or do the 80's cop movie grip on a pistol. Ive owned and shot the following pistols:
Sig P226 & P229 9mm & 40 S&W. Sig P220.
HK P30 9mm, HK P30L, HK45, HK45C.
Glock 19 & 17.
S&W M&P9.
XD45, XD9 & XDM9.
Walther PPQ, S&W P99.
STI Tactical 5'' 9mm, STI Tactical 4.15 9mm.
Kimber SIS.
Springfield TRP.
Ed Brown Special Forces Commander.
All of these pistols felt good in my hands and had manageable recoil. Some "felt" better than others, but all were fun to shoot. Ive settled on the ones that are most reliable and are easiest to shoot at speed. Which for me are 9mm Glocks. The grip on Gen 3 Glocks are fine for me, but my wife needs Gen4's with the small backstraps, since her hands are smaller. She has no problem shooting 1911's and other 45's. I taught her proper form, which i learned mostly from Gabe Suarez books and video's. I never shot a proper firearm until 5 yrs ago.
Let's agree what Grant is talking about is a general statement, covering the average shooter who does not have physical limitations, such as arthritis, to deal with. This discussion isn't about being able to pick up any pistol and win a Grand Master championship with it, it's about shooting any of the popular designs adequately, such as keeping all your shots inside a pie plate at about 7 yards or so after a few shots of familiarization.
It's also about setting aside mental reservations to learn a weapon needed for the mission. If I were a police officer in a department that required I carry a Glock, I would have only two choices- set aside my prejudices and learn to shoot the Glock to the best of my abilities, or quit and find a job elsewhere.
I get the finger groove thing. It' why the grips on my ARs aren't the A2 style.
Ergos are important, but none of the mainstream pistols have unusual shapes or strange angles and fit the majority of folks.
Even so, when choices are limited, people still find ways to make "inferior" weapons work. A good example is the Mosin-Nagant. It is quite possibly the clumsiest rifle I've ever shot, yet some of the most legendary snipers in history used them to great affect. The Finns used them to devastate the Russians during the winter war. In Somalia, they figured out how to shoot helicopters down with RPGS although our analysts said it couldn't be done. When your very existence is on the line, you will do what it takes to win, regardless of the tools you were given to fight with
OK, go out and kill a kitten. You are painting with a really wide paint brush. Once upon a time, I decided to join my friends in some GSSF competition. I have some mobility issues in my wrists and the Glocks just point naturally high. I countered that problem by doing stretching exercises every morning with my wrists. You know, rotating the wrists forward such that when I open my support hand my fingers would make a 45 degree angle with the ground. I got to the point where I was doing decent.
As my arthritis got worse, it became more and more difficult to cozy up to the grip angle of the Glock. I spoke with another shooter who does decent with a Glock (a former Limited 10 National Champion) and he suggested making some changes with elbow position to make up for the high grip angle. I tried that for a while and it worked sort of kind of OK. Still, the Glock just wasn't the best fit for me in the ergonomics department.
The following spring I was squadded with 4 USPSA Grandmaster Glock shooters at an IPSC match and I looked to them for advice. One of them was Dave Sevigny...I'll stop there.
My point is pretty simple. A pistol's ergonomics may not be a decent fit for some shooters, period. To tell me it's in my head is a bit of a reach.
My thread wasn't for people with medical issues.
I used Glock just as ONE example. People say similar comments about other guns as well.
C4
AGREED!
Ergonomics DO matter.
I can shoot any pistol decent some MUCH better than others though.
As far as new gun owners go, training is very important. But if the pistol they end up choosing is not a good "fit" for them then they simply won't train.
We do have choices. If Glock were the be all, end all in pistols then why do other manufactures keep coming out with new designs? Why do they sell? For that matter why is there a 4th Gen Glock if they were "Perfect" from the get go? I used to carry a G23 daily and could shoot it quite well. It was replaced with something I could shoot better because it fit me better.
I understand the OP's point about people needing to train. I agree with it. But honestly a Mom with 4 kids, a job and a household to run will not take the time she should take to train. So why not give her the best fitting pistol from the get go, so if she ever does have to use it to defend her life she has the best odds of being successful?
Well I am sure this has doomed a few kittens. Sorry Kitties.
ERGO's are important. What is more important is know how to properly hold and shoot the gun. This is where Training and knowledge come into play.
If you do not even know what you are doing, how can you make any kind of informed decision? The answer is you can't.
As I have stated several times in this thread, it isn't about Glock. People say that M&P's, HK's, etc, etc don't fit their hands. The reality is most everyone can shoot a Glock, M&P, SIG, HK, etc IF they understand how to properly hold the gun AND manipulate the trigger to the rear.
One of the joys of teaching open enrollment pistol classes is that you are constantly challenged by students advising you that their sights are off, gun is inaccurate or XYZ is wrong (and is why they can't hit anything). So my job is to prove them wrong. That means that I get stuck shooting guns that I would NEVER own AND need to shoot it well in order to prove to them that it is the singer and not the song! Because if I do not, they will believe that the firearm is handicapping them (and this is just rarely the case).
To date, the worst gun I have had to shoot is a COPY of the Beretta Storm (40) in DA/SA. I swear it must have a 15lbs trigger pull that is as long as the Mississippi. :mad:
C4
...Id rather have a gun that feel like crap in my hand but is reliable than one that "feels" perfect but doesn't go bang...
I swore off Glocks for years because for me (primarily a revolver guy) they felt like a 2x4 in my hand. I'd see one at a shop or show, pick it up, and put it right back down.
I finally came across a Glock 17 at a price I just couldn't refuse and spent some quality time with it. I quickly became a Glock convert.
They're ugly and they're blocky, but the darned things work, and the bullets go where they're supposed to. What's not to like?
maddawg5777
04-03-12, 00:22
I swore off Glocks for years because for me (primarily a revolver guy) they felt like a 2x4 in my hand. I'd see one at a shop or show, pick it up, and put it right back down.
I finally came across a Glock 17 at a price I just couldn't refuse and spent some quality time with it. I quickly became a Glock convert.
They're ugly and they're blocky, but the darned things work, and the bullets go where they're supposed to. What's not to like?
I agree, if I were to switch platforms I would go to a glock 17/19 only because i can get them severely discounted and they work. Now if money wasn't an issue Id be calling Wilson or Nighthawk but in order to do that i would have to ditch the carbine which i cannot do.
ERGO's are important. What is more important is know how to properly hold and shoot the gun. This is where Training and knowledge come into play.
If you do not even know what you are doing, how can you make any kind of informed decision? The answer is you can't.
As I have stated several times in this thread, it isn't about Glock. People say that M&P's, HK's, etc, etc don't fit their hands. The reality is most everyone can shoot a Glock, M&P, SIG, HK, etc IF they understand how to properly hold the gun AND manipulate the trigger to the rear.
One of the joys of teaching open enrollment pistol classes is that you are constantly challenged by students advising you that their sights are off, gun is inaccurate or XYZ is wrong (and is why they can't hit anything). So my job is to prove them wrong. That means that I get stuck shooting guns that I would NEVER own AND need to shoot it well in order to prove to them that it is the singer and not the song! Because if I do not, they will believe that the firearm is handicapping them (and this is just rarely the case).
To date, the worst gun I have had to shoot is a COPY of the Beretta Storm (40) in DA/SA. I swear it must have a 15lbs trigger pull that is as long as the Mississippi. :mad:
C4
I agree that most folks can be taught how to shoot almost any pistol. My main point is most people will not spend the time to do so.
My parents are prime examples. They live quite a distance from me so I am unable to work with them. Dad bought himself a Glock 23 and Mom a Ruger GP100. Mom cannot pull the slide back on a auto due to medical reasons. Anyway I was visiting them and we went to a range. I tried to work with them. Dad had been in the Army and qualified with a S&W model 10 I think. He had not shot a pistol in over 35 years. He stepped up to the line and tried out his new Glock and could not hit the broad side of a barn with it a 10 yards. The first words out of his mouth were "This thing is a piece of shit!" I asked him to let me shoot it, and shot the center out of the target. I handed the pistol back to him and explained that shooting is a perishable skill. He had not shot in 35 years. Now he is a golfer and I simply asked, "What if you had not swung a club in 35 years? Do you think you would do well?" I think that got through to him. I showed him how to hold the pistol and reminded him of trigger control and got him hitting the target. Then I went to mom. Well she could not even hit the target. All I was able to do with her was find out she is right handed, left eye dominant. She was tired and cold so we left. I recommended that they both get some professional training. I even found some instructors for them. Well neither one have attended any class or have been to the range since. That was over a year ago.
I would say that 75% of Americans are like my folks. Most buy a pistol and barely get it dirty. It sits up in their closet or in a sock drawer. They may try and shoot it a couple of times but if they don't do well then the thing gets shoved away. When I used to sell guns at a local sporting goods shop. I always recommended people get professional training prior to buying a pistol. Most did not. You can lead a horse........
...People say that M&P's, HK's, etc, etc don't fit their hands...
Heh! No matter how good a pistol is, you can easily find somebody who hates it.
While growing up, we were taught the basics of shooting pistols as they applied to pistols in general and then learned to adapt them to the individual type.
I shoot much better with a rifle anyway
I agree, I've never shot a handgun I could shoot reasonably well and haven't had any problems switching from one model to another. There have been a couple that had minor fit issues but even if they were less comfortable/natural I could still shoot them fine. The people I've seen that have difficulty shooting well have issues that are not fixed by switching guns and the issues need correction before they will ever shoot well.
I agree that most folks can be taught how to shoot almost any pistol. My main point is most people will not spend the time to do so.
We have to remember that we do not need to be a Grand Master here. Just be able to hit 8" circles at 10yds. This is MORE than proficient enough to defend one’s self.
The point I have been trying (on top of my main post) is that if you are a good shooter, you can pick up ANY firearm and shoot it well (no time needed to learn how to shoot it).
Granted, some guns will take longer to learn to shoot (at your highest level). Typically, this revolves around DA/SA and LEM triggers
C4
I agree, I've never shot a handgun I could shoot reasonably well and haven't had any problems switching from one model to another. There have been a couple that had minor fit issues but even if they were less comfortable/natural I could still shoot them fine. The people I've seen that have difficulty shooting well have issues that are not fixed by switching guns and the issues need correction before they will ever shoot well.
Bingo (Gold star)! If you are fundamentally sound, you can pick up just about any gun and do well with it. This is why basic pistol training + practice is SOOOOO important when attempting to figure out which gun is the right one for you!
Being a sound shooter ALSO allows you to make good judgments concerning the "feel" of the gun along with how it shoots.
C4
PrivateCitizen
04-03-12, 09:52
OK, go out and kill a kitten. You are painting with a really wide paint brush. Once upon a time, I decided to join my friends in some GSSF competition. I have some mobility issues in my wrists and the Glocks just point naturally high. I countered that problem by doing stretching exercises every morning with my wrists. You know, rotating the wrists forward such that when I open my support hand my fingers would make a 45 degree angle with the ground. I got to the point where I was doing decent.
As my arthritis got worse, it became more and more difficult to cozy up to the grip angle of the Glock. I spoke with another shooter who does decent with a Glock (a former Limited 10 National Champion) and he suggested making some changes with elbow position to make up for the high grip angle. I tried that for a while and it worked sort of kind of OK. Still, the Glock just wasn't the best fit for me in the ergonomics department.
The following spring I was squadded with 4 USPSA Grandmaster Glock shooters at an IPSC match and I looked to them for advice. One of them was Dave Sevigny...I'll stop there.
My point is pretty simple. A pistol's ergonomics may not be a decent fit for some shooters, period. To tell me it's in my head is a bit of a reach.
I don't think Grant's post has anything to do with shooters like you.
Knowing there is a problem with a pistols ergos because you know how to shoot one is different than blathering internet gun platitudes to/around knowledgeable shooters who know better.
brickboy240
04-03-12, 11:21
Wow, Grant, that is probably one of the best assessments of the modern pistol scene I have seen here.
We also forget (...while we nitpick the details of one pistol or another) how lucky we are to have the array of choices we have right now.
Not to long ago, you bought a Colt 1911 or a S&W wheelie and that was about it. When you bought that Colt...you knew it would have to be worked on to feed reliably. Nowdays, you can buy a 400 dollar 1911 and the thing will probably feed most hollowpoints. You can also buy an 800-1000 dollar 1911 that already has a beavertail, great sights and will feed anything you throw in it. Back not to long ago....that was some sort of miracle! LOL
So in reality, having to adjust or replace an ejector or swap a few internal parts (like sears, etc.) we actually have some pretty nice choices in pistols. Regardless of how you feel about how any of them fit your hand...the truth is you stand a very good chance of buying an autopistol that you can run right out of the box and it will work 99% of the time.
With training and some basics....yes...you should be able to group decently with any of them.
- brickboy240
High Tower
04-03-12, 11:34
If I read one more comment about someone not being able to shoot a Glock (for instance) because of the grip, I am killing a kitten!
C4
Well I hate cats,so......I cannot shoot a Glock well because of the grip :D
But in all seriousness, Glocks were not made for large handed folk. The finger grooves fall right in the middle of all my fingers and the slide rips the top of the web of my hand. This doesn't mean I cannot shoot Glock, it just means I only like to shoot Gen 2 Glocks.
But in all seriousness, Glocks were not made for large handed folk.
HT gets a pass on this. His hands go over top of the backstrap on a Glock. Huge Hands... but he's pretty accurate with one, even while his hands are bleeding :sarcastic:
Grant, I understand what you're saying to be true, but for whatever reason I just couldn't get comfortable and consistent with the G19. I was originally taught to shoot pistol by a former SEAL team firearms instructor, so I don't think I was taught wrong. What was the problem? I honestly don't know, but whatever it was, I wasn't able to overcome it by going out and putting rounds downrange. I still think Glocks are great pistols, but I decided to try M&P route.
hotrodder636
04-03-12, 13:07
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Kitten.jpg
C4
Love it, Grant. I don't have the clout you have but have long been thinking the same thing after reading some of these posts in regards to the issue you mention. I own and can personally shoot pretty well the following:
1911 (x2)
Ruger Mk II
Ruger Bisley .45
Smith and Wesson model 686 performance center model
Dan Wesson .357 maximum
Beretta elite 9mm
Taurus .454 Casull
H&K USPC .40
H&K .45
and lastly a Glock 19, which about 15 years ago, I claimed Glock to be the worst pistol ever.....then I LEARNED how to shoot. I can shoot all of these well and can go from gun to gun with no issue as I have trained with all of them.
On a side note....die kitty, die....get'em Grant!
Large frame glocks and many double stack DA autos are difficult for me due to my apparently short fingers.
When holding the pistol correctly, I can't place my finger in good position on the face of the trigger for a straight reward pull.. My only options are hold the pistol incorrectly, pull the trigger weakly from an angle with my finger, or pick a pistol that fits. :cool:
maddawg5777
04-03-12, 14:33
Large frame glocks and many double stack DA autos are difficult for me due to my apparently short fingers.
When holding the pistol correctly, I can't place my finger in good position on the face of the trigger for a straight reward pull.. My only options are hold the pistol incorrectly, pull the trigger weakly from an angle with my finger, or pick a pistol that fits. :cool:
That is the only real "fitment" of a pistol that makes a difference. For example the FNP 45, my index finger barely touches the trigger in DA so that pistol is too "big" or the trigger reach is too long for my hands. If its in SA its fine but that's not something i would rely on.
exiledtoIA
04-03-12, 16:01
What kind of kitten?
I would have to say that even though I don't have Grant's level of experience I have found him to be correct about this. I have yet to find a pistol or revolver I could not shoot well enough for defensive purposes. There are some I prefer over others.
My first preference is the BHP. Then the M&P 9mm. I can shoot Glocks, I just prefer other platforms.
The point I have been trying (on top of my main post) is that if you are a good shooter, you can pick up ANY firearm and shoot it well (no time needed to learn how to shoot it).
Granted, some guns will take longer to learn to shoot (at your highest level). Typically, this revolves around DA/SA and LEM triggers
I agree. Now we are on the same page. In my other reply I jumped the gun (pun intended) and got on my ergonomics bandwagon.
In your opening post you listed several platforms that you have danced with at one time. I'll join the club. I have shot the following handguns in USPSA matches:
STI and SVI 2011
Various 1911s
Springfield XDm
CZ 75B
Smith and Wesson 610
Smith and Wesson 25-2
Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm Pro
Oddly enough, I once shot the 610 revolver and the CZ 75B back to back in a special classifier event. The results were very good with both in-spite of the huge differences in platform. I suppose that just solidifies your position?
Grant, this sounds exactly like my recent re-discovery of Glocks. When I first started shooting, I had "hollywood fundamentals" and coupled with a few bad Glock experiences starting out (bad range gun, etc.), I all but swore off Glocks for a number of years. I was always one of those guys that said Glocks "point funny" for me.
Being a lefty, I was drawn to the ambidextrous-ness and ergonomics of HKs. I own many and still love them, but over the years, as I got more proper instruction and training, I found myself evolving to a much more aggressive grip (thumbs VERY far forward), which seemed to fit almost naturally with a Glock.
With the recent upgrades to Glock ergonomics and increasingly ambi-friendly controls, I found myself at my LGS picking up a new Gen4 19. I'm ashamed to say that I shoot it as good or better than my HKs.
Had I not learned the proper fundamentals over the years, I may have missed out on a great pistol.
Shadow1198
04-03-12, 17:53
The thing that constantly amazes me is how people let such a simple machine completely dominate them. By far, the biggest issues with techniques in the firearms world are due to ego.
packinaglock
04-03-12, 18:44
This thread kind of reminds me of the time when I went with a buddy from work to the local range. After a while and seeing him land rounds all over the target, he walked over to me and said his new gun was a piece of shiz and was not acurate at all. I walked over to his lane picked it up loaded a mag and put every round in the red.
..., I found myself evolving to a much more aggressive grip (thumbs VERY far forward), which seemed to fit almost naturally with a Glock.
I think this might be it. Shooters who "point" with their index finger prefer 1911/mp, ect. "thumb" pointers prefer glocks. I shoot half decent(cz) and I can shoot glocks pretty well also, but they have a different feel I couldnt explain, but thats it. Its mental, point with your thumbs, aggressively with a glock and you're on target, when shooting just about anything else, you point with your finger or fist(like you're punching the target), and the sights snap right where you're looking.
I did the same as you, hated the glock feel, bought my cz, and ive become competent with it. However, after learning more, I shot my bro's g19 and now a g19 or 23 is the next gun I buy.
Grant, this sounds exactly like my recent re-discovery of Glocks. When I first started shooting, I had "hollywood fundamentals" and coupled with a few bad Glock experiences starting out (bad range gun, etc.), I all but swore off Glocks for a number of years. I was always one of those guys that said Glocks "point funny" for me.
Being a lefty, I was drawn to the ambidextrous-ness and ergonomics of HKs. I own many and still love them, but over the years, as I got more proper instruction and training, I found myself evolving to a much more aggressive grip (thumbs VERY far forward), which seemed to fit almost naturally with a Glock.
With the recent upgrades to Glock ergonomics and increasingly ambi-friendly controls, I found myself at my LGS picking up a new Gen4 19. I'm ashamed to say that I shoot it as good or better than my HKs.
Had I not learned the proper fundamentals over the years, I may have missed out on a great pistol.
I have a similar experience. I was a GEN 2 Glock guy way back in the day. I was used to shooting 1911's (which was a mistake) and so I found the Glock grip and trigger to be less than.
My knowledge and shooting ability was nothing compared to what it is now and thusly have found myself back shooting Gen 2 and Gen 3 Glock's. ;)
C4
As a new member to the forum, it is interesting to read threads like this. But I have to admit, I am really struggling to understand where some of you are coming from. Glock shooters point with their thumbs?The 1911 shooters point with their index finger? I wish I could spend some range time with some of you guys.
Animal_Mother556
04-04-12, 11:29
Grant, I have to agree. Give me something with sights and a trigger, and I can probably shoot it pretty well.
Are there guns that "feel" better in my large hands? Absolutely. But I don't think I have ever held a handgun that was "too uncomfortable" to shoot (except for maybe a S&W .357 snubbie with Scandium frame...that was dumb)...
I can GET comfortable with just about any gun given the proper amount of time to fondle it. Just like getting that new cell phone. You hate it for the first week...the menus are different...you forget where the buttons are, and what functions they serve...you want your old phone back. But, when you get used to it, you love it.
Animal_Mother556
04-04-12, 11:33
As a new member to the forum, it is interesting to read threads like this. But I have to admit, I am really struggling to understand where some of you are coming from. Glock shooters point with their thumbs?The 1911 shooters point with their index finger? I wish I could spend some range time with some of you guys.
Hang on, man...I am not exactly sure what that guy is even talking about...so don't take it as gospel just yet.
CarbonCycles
04-04-12, 13:36
Hang on, man...I am not exactly sure what that guy is even talking about...so don't take it as gospel just yet.
I'd also like clarification...
LOL, I didn't get it either.
Especially since I spend a lot of thought trying to achieve balance between my index finger and thumbs opposing each other which are all in line with the barrel.
Google: thumbs high forward grip
All the cool kids are doing it! :D
LOL, I didn't get it either.
Especially since I spend a lot of thought trying to achieve balance between my index finger and thumbs opposing each other which are all in line with the barrel.
I am a pretty new handgun shooter but I have never heard about this technique. Are you over thinking the grip?
Animal_Mother556
04-05-12, 05:05
Google: thumbs high forward grip
All the cool kids are doing it! :D
Yeah....but what's with 1911 shooters and their index fingers?
"Shooters who "point" with their index finger prefer 1911/mp, ect. "thumb" pointers prefer glocks" -- according to MegademiC
A buddy and I shoot competitively, and we have won matches both small and large. He shoots an Apexed M&P and I a P30L. We recently rented a G34, the holy grail of competitive guns, to see what all the fuss was about. We both adapted to it instantly, but neither of us shot it any better or worse than our own pistols. I think we both came to the sad realization that no pistol will take us to the next level, its all on us.
Glock shooters point with their thumbs?The 1911 shooters point with their index finger?
On an autoloader, the thumbs of both the firing hand and the support hand should ideally point forward regardless of what brand/pattern of handgun the shooter is using.
As for what you should be "pointing" the gun with.... aiming them utilizing the sights is considered more traditional, and generally nets a higher chance of success.
He was speaking to the position of one's fingers/hands when achieving their firing grip, not really about aiming.....though it was phrased in such a way as to suggest it.
Please, dear god, let's not let this turn into a point-shooting debacle. We have a Training subforum for that bucket-of-yuck.
Yea, I guess I worded that a little wierd. I am NOT suggesting point shooting or even talking about that.
I cant really describe it differently, but it only applies with a high thumbs forward grip. When bringing the sights up, there are different feels for both. If I try to "point" a 1911 or what have you with my thumbs, I need to search for my sights. Vise-versa for the glock. However, if I imagine I'm pointing like I stated in my previous post, the sights are already lined up when I get them on target. I think people just cant get the right "feel" for it and get the muscle memory down, so they pick a different platform... which is fine, as long as they understand they are the problem.
Maybe I'm just wierd, or its just how I separate the muscle memory for both in my head. Oh, and I'm talking about bringing the gun up(from a holster for example) and punching out, as the muscle memory will decide how long the first shot takes to get out. Once you get the sights lined up, all this doesnt matter anymore.
I think we both came to the sad realization that no pistol will take us to the next level, its all on us. I see you have won some large matches and you are in the Denver area. I know this thread is about beginners (or just shooters lacking knowledge) coming to conclusions through ignorance (in the polite sense of not knowing). But just out of curiosity have you ever worked with shooters that are being held back because of fitment/ergonomic issues that were so severe a switch in platforms was recommended?
I feel like I have to chime in here. I do agree with you that most shooters do not shoot well simply because they have an incorrect grip or hold or whatever and end up blaming some aspect of the gun, to a certain extent.
I was blessed (or cursed, more like) with extremely small hands. I wear men's extra small gloves. I can get all my fingers onto the grip of an XD subcompact. I literally CANNOT pull the trigger on a Glock with a proper grip (centered in my wrist, high grip, thumbs forward). My finger just flails uselessly at the trigger safety trying to reach it. Same story with double action guns. My fingers are so short that I can only get the very tip of my finger on the trigger no matter what double action pistol I have tried (with the exception of some J-frame revolvers). So while I do agree with you on the training aspect, I also believe there is some merit to guns not fitting hands. Unless, of course, the shooter has no problem reaching the trigger, in which case he/she has no one to blame but him/herself.
What you're describing is the most common "complaint" I get with Glock pistols. Next to "They're plastic!".
I'm assuming that's the main place you're getting them too?
when i first got my glock (at the advice of yall) i was like "man this thing needs a trigger job"
the more i learned about how to shoot it properly the more i've liked it.
it's always guys that put like 200 rounds a year through some piece of crap that will tell you all the shortcomings of "plastic" guns haha
I am a pretty new handgun shooter but I have never heard about this technique. Are you over thinking the grip?
No, I don't believe so.
Currently, I am at the point of getting good and natural feeling thumbs forward grip. However, part of the learning process involves having the index finger and thumb opposing each other with frame in between.
Now the issue is, when your index finger moves off frame to pull trigger, the thumbs can exert pressure on the frame and push sights off target. Opposing that movement would be to release lateral thumb pressure but this can result in your thumbs loosing contact with frame during recoil.
In addition I'm am working to have my index finger, while in the process of prepping and pulling trigger, to become disconnected from the rest of the muscle and grip activity such that it functions as it's own independent device so to speak. After which, when not needed, it returns to frame outside trigger guard.
It is this ready position and transition to trigger pulling position that I need to perfect a strong but non-upsetting situation.
Thumbs and index still point to the same place though.
If you have not tried the thumbs forward grip, you should. you will never go back to whatever it is that you are doing.
But as simple as it looks at first glance. It has a lot of little aspects to it that need to be mastered. I may be 75% there.
My groups have gotten smaller but I still can't shoot one small hole at will like these other guys here.... although the holes of a .45 are so big, I can fake it some days, :o
when i first got my glock (at the advice of yall) i was like "man this thing needs a trigger job"
the more i learned about how to shoot it properly the more i've liked it.
I actually grew to like my Glock trigger too.... but... I never liked the feel of the pistol any more than day one. They felt the same to me the first time I picked them up as they did the day I sold them... and I became a better shooter during that time.
Shooting improved.... opinion did not change. I'm pretty much that way with every gun I have ever owned.
Considering that a new shooter may only own one gun their entire life and hardly ever shoot it. I think the "I don't like the way this gun feels" is valid....... why.... because a competent instructor can teach a person how to shoot it unless it's some unheard of piece of pot metal junk.
Let them pick what they want if that's their intent. Teach them to shoot it. I see no problem. There is a reason we all don't own the same pistol and it's not all utilitarian in nature.
But I still agree with Grant. Beginners should be doing a -lot- of asking before they lay out the cash. At the same time their opinions are valid as well. I think they should find three pistols they really like and then have someone explain all the pros and cons then commit to one.
Animal_Mother556
04-05-12, 16:01
On an autoloader, the thumbs of both the firing hand and the support hand should ideally point forward regardless of what brand/pattern of handgun the shooter is using.
As for what you should be "pointing" the gun with.... aiming them utilizing the sights is considered more traditional, and generally nets a higher chance of success.
He was speaking to the position of one's fingers/hands when achieving their firing grip, not really about aiming.....though it was phrased in such a way as to suggest it.
Please, dear god, let's not let this turn into a point-shooting debacle. We have a Training subforum for that bucket-of-yuck.
Thanks, man. That's what I figured he was talking about, but I was hoping he would chime in and clarify before too many people started putting words into his mouth.
I see you have won some large matches and you are in the Denver area. I know this thread is about beginners (or just shooters lacking knowledge) coming to conclusions through ignorance (in the polite sense of not knowing). But just out of curiosity have you ever worked with shooters that are being held back because of fitment/ergonomic issues that were so severe a switch in platforms was recommended?
My wife falls into the category of shooter you describe, and in her case, fit and ergonomics have a significant influence on her confidence level. So, yes, I'd say in the beginning stages that fit and good ergonomics can inspire confidence, which is helpful in skill development. Some pistols have a relatively unique layout of controls that may not be ideal for everyone, but most quirks can be adapted to. IMO, a large part of skill development is learning what characteristics you can't live without and those that you are willing to train right through. There is no point sticking with a platform that you don't enjoy shooting or owning, but every platform will likely have bugs to overcome.
I think the "plastic" comments generally come from from older shooters (55+) as they have only known metal guns.
C4
I agree, I'm 64 and it took me years to accept the polymer handguns but now I carry a Glock 23 and 27. Still have and will keep my Colt 1911, Hi Powers, 5906 and other all metal guns but for me the Glock makes more sense for carry.
But don't try to talk me into a Carbon-15 or Plum Crazy AR! :D
BTW, another great thread, Grant...
KiloSierra
04-06-12, 07:42
I'm 30 and grew up shooting auto's. The only pistols I've been issued since I got into law enforcement have been Glock's. I have far more rounds down range with Glock's then anything else. Yet they are by far the pistol I shoot the worst. I can literally shoot a two inch snubnose .38 better then my former issue G35 which is by far the best shooting Glock I've ever tried. Glock's are also the only pistols that are literally painful for me to shoot. On the other hand, I have the least time with revolvers and I can outshoot any other handgun I've shot except a S&W 4043 when I'm shooting my four inch Model 66 double action.
Here's what I was referring to when I was talking about the different grip styles.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Steve126a/Thumbs_Up_Grip.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Steve126a/Thumbs_Forward_Grip.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Steve126a/Agressive_Thumbs_Forward_Grip.jpg
This might provide some clarification when referring to "pointing with the thumbs". It's all just a variance of the same grip, I've just found that my grip style has evolved from more of a 'thumbs up' grip to a really aggressive thumbs forward grip. This seems to work nicely with Glocks.
Aggressive thumbs forward works by far the best for me. It provides more flesh to frame contact just the same as the heel of the offhand contacting the side of the grip provides more surface to surface meeting.
I have no idea why anyone would embrace the other two.
I guess it all depends on your body structure and comfortablility. Some people may have wrist issues which don't allow them to extend to an aggressive thumbs forward grip. Some people simply may not be aware that it exists and they just stick with what they know.
For a long time I thought the "thumbs up" grip was the end-all-be-all of grips. Then I started evolving and tweaking and experimenting and eventually found the aggressive grip to be the best for me.
But to each, his own. The only time I critique students is when they are "teacupping" or some other grip that might cause them injury. You'd be amazed how many students I've saved from a gash when they had their support hand thumb up near or across the rear of the slide.
But to each, his own. The only time I critique students is when they are "teacupping" or some other grip that might cause them injury. You'd be amazed how many students I've saved from a gash when they had their support hand thumb up near or across the rear of the slide.
I'm sure it's been a lot more than you can remember.
I've never seen a single individual who couldn't shoot a Glock well after some simple instruction from a competent professional! I've also noted that most of the complaints logged against them come from those with marginal skills, and experience, or the very young adult shooters who are motivated almost exclusively by cosmetics....
This is a timely thread. Just a few days ago my Dad gifted me a G21. I sold my M&P awhile back to fund a very important trip. After handling the Glock I noticed that unlike my M&P, it pointed high. After dry firing the hell out of the Glock, I realized that when I brought the pistol up to my eyes, I stead of ducking to meet the pistol, it started to point straight.
Moral of the story- I fixed me.
I've also noted that most of the complaints logged against them come from those with marginal skills, and experience, or the very young adult shooters who are motivated almost exclusively by cosmetics.... My complaint about Glocks is they point too darned high, and that issue shows up on the target face when I shoot at speed. Here is a 10 yard Bill Drill with a G19. Glock Bill Drill (www.rtconnect.net/~rankeny/G19 Bill Drill.wmv) Yeah, I know I am picking nits, but on a square range points are points.
Animal_Mother556
04-07-12, 07:33
My complaint about Glocks is they point too darned high, and that issue shows up on the target face when I shoot at speed. Here is a 10 yard Bill Drill with a G19. Glock Bill Drill (www.rtconnect.net/~rankeny/G19 Bill Drill.wmv) Yeah, I know I am picking nits, but on a square range points are points.
That is just a training issue. Shoot more Glocks, and you will be fine. The Glock is not pointing too darned high...YOUR body is pointing it too darned high. Your body has to learn the feel of it.
When I bought a new pickup, I thought "These brakes are WAY too touchy!"
Now, a year later, I don't know how I got by with my old crappy brakes.
The Glock is not pointing too darned high...YOUR body is pointing it too darned high.
Sorry, no.
Do you even know your own anatomy of pointing? (asuming you are right handed and perform safety checks before you proceed)Hold your Glock by its muzzle with your left hand. Look at an object in front of you, then close your eyes and point at it with your right hand index finger, that is "human" natural index posture. Hold it there for a second. Now, put your Glock in your right hand while you are still index the same object without change your grip angle or pointing lower toward the floor.
What do you see? The Glock is pointing "too darn high", isn't it?
I'm not saying it can not be over come with practice to break your natural index angle to accommodate a Glock, but one can not deny and say Glocks point naturally as mother nature intend for human body, they aren't! I will go as far as saying if God made us all from his reflection, then Glocks will point high for him too!( but we all know the bullet will land in the center of 1000 yards bulls eyes anyway because he's God :D ).
The OP started this post, and I was the first to oppose this about a certain guns that are just not suite for everybody and there are valid reasons behind it. It isn't "just in the head" of those who refused to get along with certain guns. Sure ANYONE can eventually shoot something he hates equally well as something he loves with enough will and training, but it's like I told my boy "You will pass the exam if you study enough", DUUH! Or, you'll loose weight with more exercise and diet, double DUUUUH!
They are many, MANY, good guns on the market, most of them even come with the conventional grip angle( surprise!). One doesn't have to spend any more money on bullets, book a class, a flight, a hotel room, and many other expenses just to TRY and learn to shoot the darn thing better. It doesn't make sense, not common sense, deffinitely not financial sense either. I WILL, though, go to his class with my favorite guns, but not the one I hate.
Everybody has preferences, even those who are saying they can shoot any gun. No, especially those who have shot many, many guns, you know which one you like more and why. People just need to respect other people's choices, feeling and opinions about their own weapon. It is just as personal as yours.
Again, no, ..please.. Don't fly to an über kool tactikal klass with a gun you hate. You'll hold up the klass.
Flame suite on!:dirol:
...Flame suite on!:dirol:
No flame, but I humbly suggest that pointing isn't shooting.
Point at something again, and then bring your hand in front of your face, palm side inward. Is your wrist positioned the same way it is when you hold your handgun? If so, then you're right.
Nevertheless, everyone doesn't hold their gun that way. I, for one, adduct my wrist slightly, bringing my middle knuckle closer to the midline of my wrist. I don't know if I do this because I "grew up" with revolvers or what. I don't know whether my way is better or worse than someone else's; I just know it works for me.
FWIW, I'd much prefer a gun that "points" too high to one that "points" too low. It's easy to bring the front sight down, but it's a real bitch when all you see is an empty rear notch and have to go hunting for the front sight.
Just my two cents.
My complaint about Glocks is they point too darned high, and that issue shows up on the target face when I shoot at speed. Here is a 10 yard Bill Drill with a G19. Glock Bill Drill (www.rtconnect.net/~rankeny/G19 Bill Drill.wmv) Yeah, I know I am picking nits, but on a square range points are points.
the idea behind the grip angle is that it forces your wrists forward. you can then maintain forward tension to control recoil. shooting my glock my left wrist is basically at maximum forward extension. post recoil my muscles snap the gun back down and holy smokes, sights are still on target! :eek: I fail to see the disadvantage of this ergonomic advantage.
Sorry, no.
Do you even know your own anatomy of pointing? (asuming you are right handed and perform safety checks before you proceed)Hold your Glock by its muzzle with your left hand. Look at an object in front of you, then close your eyes and point at it with your right hand index finger, that is "human" natural index posture. Hold it there for a second. Now, put your Glock in your right hand while you are still index the same object without change your grip angle or pointing lower toward the floor.
What do you see? The Glock is pointing "too darn high", isn't it?
I'm not saying it can not be over come with practice to break your natural index angle to accommodate a Glock, but one can not deny and say Glocks point naturally as mother nature intend for human body, they aren't! I will go as far as saying if God made us all from his reflection, then Glocks will point high for him too!( but we all know the bullet will land in the center of 1000 yards bulls eyes anyway because he's God :D ).
The OP started this post, and I was the first to oppose this about a certain guns that are just not suite for everybody and there are valid reasons behind it. It isn't "just in the head" of those who refused to get along with certain guns. Sure ANYONE can eventually shoot something he hates equally well as something he loves with enough will and training, but it's like I told my boy "You will pass the exam if you study enough", DUUH! Or, you'll loose weight with more exercise and diet, double DUUUUH!
They are many, MANY, good guns on the market, most of them even come with the conventional grip angle( surprise!). One doesn't have to spend any more money on bullets, book a class, a flight, a hotel room, and many other expenses just to TRY and learn to shoot the darn thing better. It doesn't make sense, not common sense, deffinitely not financial sense either. I WILL, though, go to his class with my favorite guns, but not the one I hate.
Everybody has preferences, even those who are saying they can shoot any gun. No, especially those who have shot many, many guns, you know which one you like more and why. People just need to respect other people's choices, feeling and opinions about their own weapon. It is just as personal as yours.
Again, no, ..please.. Don't fly to an über kool tactikal klass with a gun you hate. You'll hold up the klass.
Flame suite on!:dirol:
You are a finger pointer, you try to get sights aligned by pointing your finger at the target. Of course glocks will point high. Now get an aggressive thumbs foreward grip and an aggressive stance, and try pointing at the target with your thumbs and your sights will line up. This is what I was refering to last page.
Also, why does it seem all people who shoot glocks can shoot anything, but some people cannot shoot glocks? Barring physical disability or wrist injury, I cannot think of a reason other than mental block.
The Glock is not pointing too darned high...YOUR body is pointing it too darned high. Your body has to learn the feel of it. Nah, my body is pointing just right and it doesn't want to be re-trained to shoot a Glock. I went down that road before. I know it isn't the greatest, but I'll settle for sub-two second Bill Drills at the top of the A box.
I fail to see the disadvantage of this ergonomic advantage. If your body concluded, after a lot of training, that steep grip angles were an ergonomic nightmare, you might feel differently.
I guess I have come full circle here. The premise of the thread is how would an ignorant person know Jack about ergonomics. Are you folks telling me I am ignorant? :lol:
I think the "plastic" comments generally come from from older shooters (55+) as they have only known metal guns.
C4
I couldn't agree more grant. I work with an old Nam' Vet who thinks Glocks are some inferior Chinese you because of the polymer frame. He often makes the comment in comparison to his beloved 1911 if I run out of ammo I want to be able to beat someone to death....makes me sick. I highly doubt he'd want someone pistol whipping him with a 31 Oz G17 any more than a 1911.
Fact of the matter is...I know I won't have to resort to beating someone with my G17...cause I likely won't run 18 rounds of ammo in a SD/HD situation.
Also the same group of people liken the 9 mm to a BB gun...reckon they wouldn't want to be hit by either round.
Ultimately most people are just gear whores. "Why this $800 Calloway driver cant hit a ball" guess I'll just have to get a Sasquatch. Most folks just don't have what it takes to master a weapon platform/system.
They'd rather chalk up bad shots to bad guns yadda yadda yadda
What I'm going to relate here is maybe a little inappropriate in the overall discussion but...
Several years ago I wound up involved in a situation with a car burglar that I managed to make it right up onto without his knowledge of my advancing on him. When I initiated contact and ordered him down and out of the vehicle he bolted up out of it and straight at me.
I hit him as hard as I could across the mouth with a Glock 21 and spun him completely around and dropped him straight down. He was so disoriented and in pain with his teeth and lips that I was able to effectively secure him without further incident.
The only reason I'm including it in this discussion is in relation to the theory by steel framed pistol users that a polymer framed gun can't be effectively employed against someone with the same level of success.
If your body concluded, after a lot of training, that steep grip angles were an ergonomic nightmare, you might feel differently.
kind of weird how no respectable firearms trainers share your opinion.
If your body concluded, after a lot of training, that steep grip angles were an ergonomic nightmare, you might feel differently.
I guess I have come full circle here. The premise of the thread is how would an ignorant person know Jack about ergonomics. Are you folks telling me I am ignorant? :lol:
No, the premise of the thread is that the mechanics that make up a good handgun shooter are the same no matter what pistol you pickup. In general, proper grip, good sight alignment, good trigger control equals the round going where it's suppose to. Preferences are a different conversation.
Once your mechanics are good, the hardware shouldn't much matter. IMHO, this is what makes shooting at 25 yards so interesting. At that distance, you will very quickly learn how good your basics really are. It's an unforgiving distance for handgun shooting. Minor mistakes show up on the target in a bad way.
Couldn't agree more. I shoot some better than others; none as well as I would like. Good instruction will make anyone proficient.
What I'm going to relate here is maybe a little inappropriate in the overall discussion but...
Several years ago I wound up involved in a situation with a car burglar that I managed to make it right up onto without his knowledge of my advancing on him. When I initiated contact and ordered him down and out of the vehicle he bolted up out of it and straight at me.
I hit him as hard as I could across the mouth with a Glock 21 and spun him completely around and dropped him straight down. He was so disoriented and in pain with his teeth and lips that I was able to effectively secure him without further incident.
The only reason I'm including it in this discussion is in relation to the theory by steel framed pistol users that a polymer framed gun can't be effectively employed against someone with the same level of success.
I am going to share this with the old vet I work with! He will love it. More than anything I'm glad you are ok!
Nah, my body is pointing just right and it doesn't want to be re-trained to shoot a Glock. I went down that road before. I know it isn't the greatest, but I'll settle for sub-two second Bill Drills at the top of the A box.
If your body concluded, after a lot of training, that steep grip angles were an ergonomic nightmare, you might feel differently.
I guess I have come full circle here. The premise of the thread is how would an ignorant person know Jack about ergonomics. Are you folks telling me I am ignorant? :lol:
Nope, just mentally congested! :D
Seriously, whether you want to admit it or not, your inability to adapt your shooting style to a steeper grip angle isn't an ergonomics issue, it's a training and mental block issue. As has been mentioned, NO major firearms instructor agrees with your position. One of the original semi-autos (P-08 Luger) has a steep grip angle. Consider the Olympic free pistol grip angle. You cannot suggest that Olympic trainers haven't considered the ergonomics of the grip angle. Those folks eat sleep and breathe competitive advantage every day.
It's perfectly OK to admit that the steeper grip angle isn't your cup of tea. It's not OK to expect everyone to agree with your position on it's ergonomics.
Nope, just mentally congested! :D
Seriously, whether you want to admit it or not, your inability to adapt your shooting style to a steeper grip angle isn't an ergonomics issue, it's a training and mental block issue. As has been mentioned, NO major firearms instructor agrees with your position. One of the original semi-autos (P-08 Luger) has a steep grip angle. Consider the Olympic free pistol grip angle. You cannot suggest that Olympic trainers haven't considered the ergonomics of the grip angle. Those folks eat sleep and breathe competitive advantage every day.
It's perfectly OK to admit that the steeper grip angle isn't your cup of tea. It's not OK to expect everyone to agree with your position on it's ergonomics.
Yep. you may have particular guns you are more comfortable with or feel more natural but proper fundamentals allow you to competently use most firearms without resorting to blaming the gun for your failings.
Are you talking to me???:jester:
C4
No, he was DELETED.
For soap-boxing, claiming a halo for deliberately deciding to remain ignorant, and not letting that get in the way of chiming in where it doesn't fit.
And he'd best not do it any more....
Animal_Mother556
04-09-12, 10:56
Sorry, no.
Do you even know your own anatomy of pointing? (asuming you are right handed and perform safety checks before you proceed)Hold your Glock by its muzzle with your left hand. Look at an object in front of you, then close your eyes and point at it with your right hand index finger, that is "human" natural index posture. Hold it there for a second. Now, put your Glock in your right hand while you are still index the same object without change your grip angle or pointing lower toward the floor.
What do you see? The Glock is pointing "too darn high", isn't it?
I'm not saying it can not be over come with practice to break your natural index angle to accommodate a Glock, but one can not deny and say Glocks point naturally as mother nature intend for human body, they aren't! I will go as far as saying if God made us all from his reflection, then Glocks will point high for him too!( but we all know the bullet will land in the center of 1000 yards bulls eyes anyway because he's God :D ).
The OP started this post, and I was the first to oppose this about a certain guns that are just not suite for everybody and there are valid reasons behind it. It isn't "just in the head" of those who refused to get along with certain guns. Sure ANYONE can eventually shoot something he hates equally well as something he loves with enough will and training, but it's like I told my boy "You will pass the exam if you study enough", DUUH! Or, you'll loose weight with more exercise and diet, double DUUUUH!
They are many, MANY, good guns on the market, most of them even come with the conventional grip angle( surprise!). One doesn't have to spend any more money on bullets, book a class, a flight, a hotel room, and many other expenses just to TRY and learn to shoot the darn thing better. It doesn't make sense, not common sense, deffinitely not financial sense either. I WILL, though, go to his class with my favorite guns, but not the one I hate.
Everybody has preferences, even those who are saying they can shoot any gun. No, especially those who have shot many, many guns, you know which one you like more and why. People just need to respect other people's choices, feeling and opinions about their own weapon. It is just as personal as yours.
Again, no, ..please.. Don't fly to an über kool tactikal klass with a gun you hate. You'll hold up the klass.
Flame suite on!:dirol:
I only got as far as "Sorry, no." and stopped reading. I am guessing that the rest of it is nonsense.
Animal_Mother556
04-09-12, 10:59
If your body concluded, after a lot of training, that steep grip angles were an ergonomic nightmare, you might feel differently.
I guess I have come full circle here. The premise of the thread is how would an ignorant person know Jack about ergonomics. Are you folks telling me I am ignorant? :lol:
What exactly is your definition of "a lot of training"?
Animal_Mother556
04-09-12, 11:03
Grant (or anyone that wants to respond) --
I have not read every word of this thread yet, and I apologize if it has been covered.
Do you think that the MAJOR reason for people saying that they can't shoot pistol A or B well is just because of something they heard...and not from firsthand experience? Or do you think it is that people try out a pistol and within 100 rounds they decide "I don't like this" and quit trying?
Grant (or anyone that wants to respond) --
I have not read every word of this thread yet, and I apologize if it has been covered.
Do you think that the MAJOR reason for people saying that they can't shoot pistol A or B well is just because of something they heard...and not from firsthand experience? Or do you think it is that people try out a pistol and within 100 rounds they decide "I don't like this" and quit trying?
This could be. Someone is looking for a pistol, ask a friend who tells them to stay away from brand XYZ.
Most people just go to a gun shop, hold the pistol (incorrectly) and decide from there. A smaller percentage actually shoot the pistol (friends, range loaner, etc) and decide off of that.
As someone stated to me, I needed to stop whining about this problem. For the record, I don't care what you do with your money. Just realize that you might be making an incorrect assumption about a certain brand of pistol simply because you don't know what you don't now about how to properly shoot.
C4
I only got as far as "Sorry, no." and stopped reading. I am guessing that the rest of it is nonsense.
Maybe you should, next time, before busting in while adults are having conversation?
Or maybe you just need more, mmmm...I don't know.., "training"?
Maybe you should, next time, before busting in while adults are having conversation?
Or maybe you just need more, mmmm...I don't know.., "training"?
:-) Grab the beer and popcorn.
From your original post that got deleted, you claim there are many great handguns. I kind of disagree. There are many good handguns, but for users like on M4C who really run their guns, there really aren't many. When trying to push below a 1 second draw time or running a long combat shooting focused class, every little aspect means a lot.
When you objectively look at all the factors, Glock wins. I think the M&P and other quality striker guns are a good option. 1911s have faults, but can be a great choice for those savvy in the platform. HKs can be great with a little work and the right triggers. Same can be said of Sig and Beretta.
But the grip angle on the Glock is NOT a negative. Gaston put it there for a reason. Some may not like it, but Grant's point is the grand majority (not all) who dislike the grip angle tend to be the shooters who do not understand how to hold a gun properly. He's already made a point to say it doesn't apply to those with medical issues, so I don't understand the problem.
:-) Grab the beer and popcorn.
From your original post that got deleted
You must have mistaken me with someone else. All of my posts are still here.
Animal_Mother556
04-09-12, 21:35
Maybe you should, next time, before busting in while adults are having conversation?
Or maybe you just need more, mmmm...I don't know.., "training"?
I'm not seeing where MY training comes into play here...or why you think I busted in on the adults....
Anyway, on the first page of this thread, you advised "it can be over come with more training and practice just like many other training related issues" in reference to shooting Glocks and the grip angle. I say the same thing, and you say "Sorry, no"
Here's a fun one for ya -- When I used to spend a long time shooting strictly Glocks (which I don't really do anymore) I would pick up a P226, Beretta, 1911, etc... and think "These things don't point for shit!" It would take a while to get used to the different angle. JUST like going from 1911 to Glock or whatnot. So, why does the hate go on Glock? I am perfectly fine with people that don't like the way a Glock feels. But who the hell are YOU to tell me what my "natural index angle" is?! Come on, man.
Just to humor you, I tried your little point-at-something-then-put-a-Glock-in-your-hand-thingy. I did it probably 8 or 10 times...Glock was always pointing at what my finger was pointing at.
I'm sorry man, but you CANNOT sit there and say that the Glock grip angle is WRONG. Just like I won't sit here and say that it is RIGHT.
cheapsandwich
04-09-12, 21:42
This is going like caliber debate.
Animal_Mother556
04-09-12, 21:48
This is going like caliber debate.
I am done. I have said what I wanted to say. I am sorry for tearing up the thread like this.
Seriously, whether you want to admit it or not, your inability to adapt your shooting style to a steeper grip angle isn't an ergonomics issue, it's a training and mental block issue. That takes me right back to the title of the thread. How would you know? Did you read the entire thread? I have limited mobility in my wrists. Did I mention when I was shooting hot and heavy I would eat Celebrex like candy and get cortisone injections a couple of times a year? Did you read the part about how I used to do stretching exercises with my wrists? How about the part about working with the likes of Dave Sevigny? I also worked a bit with Ron Avery. Avery is the guy who showed me how to lower the front of the gun using my elbows to overcome the limited mobility in my wrists.
Steep grip angles are not for me, period. Now if any of you are orthopedic surgeons and you also shoot, then I am all ears. Oh, wait a minute, one of the guys I used to shoot with is an orthopedic surgeon. I have already been down that road. :D
...kind of weird how no respectable firearms trainers share your opinion. The next time I see Sevigny or Avery I'll let them know they are not respectable trainers.
Guys, I used to shoot a G35 in USPSA. I have also shot a G17 in GSSF, and three of my former carry guns were a G26, a G23, and a G19. I have also owned a G27 and a G21. I put many, many, thousands of rounds through Glocks back when I had full mobility.
In post 44 Grant said,
My thread wasn't for people with medical issues. As the guy with the medical issue, I plead guilty to persisting. But, my whole point on this thread has always been that a steep grip angle just isn't for everybody...starting with me. Yet, some of you keep telling me my GM Glock wielding friends, my own Grand Master cards, my orthopedic surgeon, and my X-rays mean nothing. It's all in my head.
Once and for all. I agree there are folks who steer away from guns simply because of internet chatter, ignorance, etc. I agree they just "Don't know." I have no argument there. But, there are folks who have tried in earnest to adapt to some platforms, but for whatever physical reasons, it's a no go. Why is that so difficult to understand?
Although I owned a Glock 30 for 7 years with thousand rounds downrange in it .I have to say I was glad to get rid of it ,It was a great reliable weapon system .
You can't kill a Kitten on this I hated the grip But I taught Myself how to overcome the dislike and I put rounds on target .:D
I handled a HK and well the rest is History But!!
I can not stand watching some of the grips My friends use :rolleyes:
the old cup and saucer or One Guy I knew the gangsta side grip:rolleyes:
It is hard to get some to see the Problem is Not the weapon ,it is the user .
I will do my best to avoid a soapbox stance, to make a statement that disagrees with a moderator and business professional can get a post deleted. I have not shot a Glock or had one in my hand. So I can not state anything about the grip and how it points. I do own a couple XD-9 s I shoot very well with both. I have a 3-4" grouping at 25 yards. I shoot 2" groups with my 1911. I also have Arthritis in my wrists, shoulders and elbows. I have had to learn new skills in order to continue shooting. I got my basic weapons training like many here in the military and regular skills training as part of my daily work while on active duty. There are many many fine hand guns on the market, there is no end all be all gun that will fit everyone. Why I have not shot a Glock? I don't know I guess no one ever offered me the chance. A gun is a tool we get good with the ones we use the most.
Coming from shooting 1911's most of my life, the grip angle on the Glock is odd feeling, as well as being the size of a 2x4...so I don't care for them.
Can I shoot a Glock...yep. But because of shooting a different style pistol and having to adjust the angle of my wrist, I don't care for them. Compared to a 1911, I don't care for the trigger either...but then again, nothing can compare to a well done 1911 trigger.
So there...go kill the kitten Grant. :haha:
Coming from shooting 1911's most of my life, the grip angle on the Glock is odd feeling, as well as being the size of a 2x4...so I don't care for them.
Can I shoot a Glock...yep. But because of shooting a different style pistol and having to adjust the angle of my wrist, I don't care for them. Compared to a 1911, I don't care for the trigger either...but then again, nothing can compare to a well done 1911 trigger.
So there...go kill the kitten Grant. :haha:
You have to follow the rules. You must, with all sincerity, state the grip angle of the Glock prevents you from shooting it with any accuracy and is the source of your misses before Grant signs the execution order of a feline juvenile.
Simply stating you do not care for the grip is not enough compelling evidence for the prosecution to seek the death penalty. This, at the most, will result in simply shooing a cat out of the kitchen with a broom
So today i have decided what is my biggest peeve about working at a gun store. Almost daily when talking to a customer about handguns and i ask what they would like to look at i hear them say: Anything but a Glock, the dont 'feel' right, or they dont point right, ect...
Does this bother anyone else as much as it does me? My thoughts are you can train yourself to any gun, why limit yourself because a gun doesnt quite 'feel' as good as another?
I don't worry about others pistol selection or reasons behind their selection honestly. I worked PT at a gun shop a few years ago and can understand your frustration, the "types" that come in are very peculiar at times.
So today i have decided what is my biggest peeve about working at a gun store. Almost daily when talking to a customer about handguns and i ask what they would like to look at i hear them say: Anything but a Glock, the dont 'feel' right, or they dont point right, ect...
Does this bother anyone else as much as it does me? My thoughts are you can train yourself to any gun, why limit yourself because a gun doesnt quite 'feel' as good as another?
Calm down bro. Why are you letting other's "feelings" bother you so much? Who gives a shit if they don't want a glock?
Quiet-Matt
07-12-12, 18:35
Yeah... having to grip it, point it, line up those sight thingies, AND pull the trigger?! WTF this is too hard! Do you have anything that I dont have to train with? Maybe something with a XBox controller for a handle. Something that aims itself, oh a lazer would be awesome!
I feel your pain brother. I worked the gun counter at a soprting goods store while I was in college.:suicide2:
In the end you know Wiggity is right. It's the customers money, who cares what they buy. It's just one more gun owner in America!
I've heard this complaint before, and my response is generally "And how do you know?" Most people saying this about a Glock (or nearly anything else) have never fired one (or never fired one under proper instruction) and don't have the experience to determine whether or not a particular pistol is "a good fit."
Of course, I'm not very sympathetic since my introduction to firearms was getting handed one off the arms room rack. Not like anyone asked my opinion about the issue weapon...
"Gee, Sergeant. This one doesn't feel right. Do you have something else back there? Perhaps in a different color? Everyone else has one in black."
Sometimes I think it is better for some people to not have options.
Don't get me wrong, if the grip is too wide for you to wrap your hands around the pistol or you can't reach the controls (slide stop, magazine release, safety, etc) - you have a legitimate issue and should try a different firearm.
Of course, I'm not very sympathetic since my introduction to firearms was getting handed one off the arms room rack. Not like anyone asked my opinion about the issue weapon...
"Gee, Sergeant. This one doesn't feel right. Do you have something else back there? Perhaps in a different color? Everyone else has one in black."
Sometimes I think it is better for some people to not have options.
.
And how much of your hard-earned money did the rifle your sergeant gave you off the rack cost you?
Not a damn CENT.
Why do you think people shouldnt be able to choose how to spend their money?
People shouldn't have opinions? You sound like Obama for shit's sake.
And how much of your hard-earned money did the rifle your sergeant gave you off the rack cost you?
Not a damn CENT.
Why do you think people shouldnt be able to choose how to spend their money?
People shouldn't have opinions? You sound like Obama for shit's sake.
Well, if he pays taxes the rifle damn sure cost him something didn't it? Btw, do you realize your previous comment directly above the post which resulted in the one I just quoted kinda makes you look like a bit of a hypocrite? Advice works both ways man, chill.
Calm down bro. Why are you letting other's "feelings" bother you so much? Who gives a shit if they don't want a glock?
I agree though, who cares what the customer does with their own money? I can't stand Glocks either and won't buy one. Everyone can feel free to cry about it if they want. I won't lose any sleep. :D
Well, if he pays taxes the rifle damn sure cost him something didn't it? Btw, do you realize your previous comment directly above the post which resulted in the one I just quoted kinda makes you look like a bit of a hypocrite? Advice works both ways man, chill.
I agree though, who cares what the customer does with their own money? I can't stand Glocks either and won't buy one. Everyone can feel free to cry about it if they want. I won't lose any sleep. :D
It seems like I clearly forgot to add "after tax" to my previous post
Snake Plissken
07-12-12, 20:05
Most people treat their pistol like their penis --they don't use it often for its intended purpose but they sure do like holding it.
:lol:
Most people treat their pistol like their penis --they don't use it often for its intended purpose but they sure do like holding it.
:lol:
I literally laughed out loud!
I really shouldn't care what they want. Its not so much they dont want the glock, its just the ignorance behind the statement that baffles me. I used glock as an example because thats where i hear it the most.
Most people treat their pistol like their penis --they don't use it often for its intended purpose but they sure do like holding it.
:lol:
Damn that was hilarious!
I've shot a Glock and I do find them uncomfortable. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm unable to shoot it, but if im spending my money I'm going to buy something that I enjoy to shoot. I can see where your coming from though as I've heard plenty of people say Glocks are uncomfortable who have never even held one.:blink:
A couple of times in the past I have seen good quotes on this subject.
When guns start to feel like a C cup then feel will be important.
Buying a gun from the shop by "feel" is like judging buying a car by sitting in the drivers seat at the dealer and making "Vrooommm" noises while moving the steering wheel.
"Feel" and "reset" are two of the stooopid-est reasons ever to buy or reject a handgun.
I really shouldn't care what they want. Its not so much they dont want the glock, its just the ignorance behind the statement that baffles me. I used glock as an example because thats where i hear it the most.
People don't know what they don't know.
Honestly, I wasn't focused on the 'gun store' aspect of this thread - I could care less how people spend their money. And I certainly don't believe that Glock has manufactured the 'perfect' answer to everyone's needs despite their marketing to the contrary...I know too many fantastic 1911, H&K, M&P and SIG shooters. I've heard the 'feel' argument plenty of times though (whether at a store or on the range), but it is often invoked by novices who have little frame of reference. Many do not grip the firearm properly, making their opinion about 'feel' misguided at best.
This is one of the better threads on the same topic.
How would you know????? (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=102702)
Oh and handgun balance is another one i have to roll my eyes at, especially when they do not have a loaded magazine.
A couple of times in the past I have seen good quotes on this subject.
When guns start to feel like a C cup then feel will be important.
Buying a gun from the shop by "feel" is like judging buying a car by sitting in the drivers seat at the dealer and making "Vrooommm" noises while moving the steering wheel.
"Feel" and "reset" are two of the stooopid-est reasons ever to buy or reject a handgun.
If you could figure this out you would never be able to spend all the money you'd make.
This is one of the better threads on the same topic.
How would you know????? (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=102702)
Yeah basically Grant saying what i was trying to say in better words.
Alaskapopo
07-13-12, 04:07
So today i have decided what is my biggest peeve about working at a gun store. Almost daily when talking to a customer about handguns and i ask what they would like to look at i hear them say: Anything but a Glock, the dont 'feel' right, or they dont point right, ect...
Does this bother anyone else as much as it does me? My thoughts are you can train yourself to any gun, why limit yourself because a gun doesnt quite 'feel' as good as another?
Ergonomics is very important and should not be dismissed so lightly as you have. Sure you can shoot almost any handgun well if forced to. However if the gun fights you well you will shoot better especially under stress.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-13-12, 04:12
A couple of times in the past I have seen good quotes on this subject.
When guns start to feel like a C cup then feel will be important.
Buying a gun from the shop by "feel" is like judging buying a car by sitting in the drivers seat at the dealer and making "Vrooommm" noises while moving the steering wheel.
"Feel" and "reset" are two of the stooopid-est reasons ever to buy or reject a handgun.
Could not disagree more. Trigger reset is (good short reset) makes shooting at speed with accuracy much easier than a trigger with a long reset. And a good feel will make first round hit potential go up and it will make a least one fundamental easier (grip) At my first department we were forced to carry Glock 21's which feel like a block in most peoples hands. I shot it ok but it was not where near as natual as my 17 or 1911's. Ergonomics comes only behind reliablity and accuracy when it comes to qualities to look for in a pistol.
Ergonomics is very important and should not be dismissed so lightly as you have. Sure you can shoot almost any handgun well if forced to. However if the gun fights you well you will shoot better especially under stress.
Pat
Disagree, as usual. Matters not a whit, especially for someone new to guns that doesn't have a clue what they are doing. I used to think it mattered, then I figured out that it doesn't.
Ergonomics isn't really the right word here though. Obviously if you put the safety near the muzzle, the magazine release on the top of the slide, etc. then the ergonomics suck, but then they suck for anyone. "feel" is horseshit, other than having a grip so large that the person can't reach the controls. But that's not "feel" either
That said, if buying a gun that feels right gets someone else to buy a gun then I say buy one that feels right.
Alaskapopo
07-13-12, 04:16
Disagree, as usual. Matters not a whit, especially for someone new to guns that doesn't have a clue what they are doing. I used to think it mattered, then I figured out that it doesn't.
That said, if buying a gun that feels right gets someone else to buy a gun then I say buy one that feels right.
Well we will have to agree to disagree. Its dangerous in general allowing inexperienced people pick out anything they will seldom make the right choice. However for those that know what they are doing ergonomics is important. Its why you see people stippling their weapons and reshaping the grips, etc. The way a pistol fits your hand will allow you to get a better grip on the pistol during the draw stroke. Not having to fight a poor initial grip on the gun will help you shoot better. I know this from my own experience and from watching those I have instructed. Using my Glock 21 example. I felt like a kid with my dads pistol. It was never natural, never easy to shoot well without deliberate effort which means it was slower. I hated that gun. But for someone with larger hands it was fine.
Pat
Well we will have to agree to disagree. Its dangerous in general allowing inexperienced people pick out anything they will seldom make the right choice. However for those that know what they are doing ergonomics is important. Its why you see people stippling their weapons and reshaping the grips, etc. The way a pistol fits your hand will allow you to get a better grip on the pistol during the draw stroke. Not having to fight a poor initial grip on the gun will help you shoot better. I know this from my own experience and from watching those I have instructed. Using my Glock 21 example. I felt like a kid with my dads pistol. It was never natural, never easy to shoot well without deliberate effort which means it was slower. I hated that gun. But for someone with larger hands it was fine.
Pat
I was the same with my Glock 30 had it close to 5 years I was all about Glock shot hundreds if not a thousand of rounds .
I could shoot it well But it didn't fit My hand .so i ditched it and moved to a HK Compact and it fit like a glove .
Alaskapopo
07-13-12, 05:28
I was the same with my Glock 30 had it close to 5 years I was all about Glock shot hundreds if not a thousand of rounds .
I could shoot it well But it didn't fit My hand .so i ditched it and moved to a HK Compact and it fit like a glove .
Yep I agree. Some people seem to think that because you can shoot any handgun accurately no matter how poor the grip that you will be able to shoot it fast and accurately under stress. I have found this to be false. You will always do better with a gun that fits you better all other things being equal.
Pat
OP,
Next time a guy like this comes in, tell him to....
Point the gun straight out with one hand
Rotate his wrist 90 degrees
Have him grab his balls with the other hand
Tell him to have a slight bend at the knees
Have him bounce slightly up and down.
Then you point at him and say "Ahhhhh dog, dat you wid da gat"
Is he feelin' better now about the Glock??
I think I'm missing something here. As long as the choices are all quality guns, like Glock vs M&P vs HK, etc., why do you care if someone chooses one over the other because they think it fits their hand better?
A few years ago, I was trying to decide on a platform to commit to, and I chose M&P over Glock mostly because it fit my hand better. Did I make a mistake? Would I be better shooter now if I ignored that and chose Glock? I don't think so.
No, I don't think anyone is saying that. Rather, I think the point is that 'feel' is a poor discriminator for the first time buyer, especially if they do not even know basic technique. A better practice? Sample a few different models under the supervision of an experienced instructor before making a purchase decision. Then feel may well be a deciding factor, but it should not drive the entire process. Unfortunately this isn't always an available option.
I'll agree with Rob's point that it is more important to get out there and start focusing on software rather than hardware.
I think people are confusing fit with ergonomics. Some guns are ergonomically designed and some aren't. Just because a gun is ergonomic, doesn't mean it will necessarily fit a person well. Likewise, a gun with poor ergonomics may "fit like a glove", but that doesn't mean it will perform optimally for someone at speed.
An inexperienced shooter without guidance will not pick a gun based on ergonomics, unless it fits AND feels good. A professional attempting to guide a new shooter cannot give them a firm grasp of the principles of combative shooting in 15 minutes. Ensuring they select a good gun is only part of the battle. Without a firm grasp of the why, they will struggle and invariably blame it on a poor choice of gun. That they're wrong will be meaningless, because they'll have no confidence in their selection. Confidence in the gun is critical in learning to master it.
New shooters look at me funny when I tell them a proper stance and grip will not feel comfortable. Comfort (to a point) has no bearing on controlling the gun. Isometric pressure applied to the gun in turn creates tension in the muscles, which isn't comfortable. If you're perfectly comfortable in your stance and grip as a new shooter, you're unlikely to be in full control of the gun.
What we may know as good and experienced shooters will not transfer in 15 minutes. That's why good training in conjunction with an available knowledge base (i.e., M4C) is VERY important to mastery of the art. Most of the people a gun shop employee sells to will never try. So, are they better off with a Glock they never like and never feel comfortable with? Or are they better off with a gun they like and feel comfortable with, so long as it operates reliably? There's a point of diminishing return with novices who have no intention of training with their purchase. You have to wrap your mind around that uncomfortable concept in order to guide them to the best purchase for their immediate needs. If you don't satisfy the immediate need, you'll never get them to the advanced needs that are down the road and across the bridge.
Good Points Glocktogo . when swapping from a Striker fire system over to HK DA/SA it did take some getting use to As I had trained Myself how to shoot my Glock well .But the follow up shots were slow in the beginning
I notice the 9mm Glocks grips where easier to handle than My 30.But i was use to carrying Sig of all flavors so My brain seem to kick back to the days of that after I sold the Glock.
I also tried the XD which was given to me by my dad and I didn't like that weapon either .
But I am starting to see what people are saying first time shooters or people that have not handled as many handguns as most of this forum.to walk in and spout something about a weapon system without first trying it out for themselves and not going but what they read or hear others say would be a pain in the ass to deal with day to day .
I guess the same way I chuckle to Myself anytime i see somebody do the ghetto side aim or above the head aim like the Movies love to show :blink:
People are always going to pick something that "feels" right. Its just human nature. It might not be the best criteria for choosing a firearm, but at least they will have one.
brand of gun just "Doesn't fit their hand well OR Has too much muzzle flip"
I'd say this is usually a symptom of people, as you said, having poor grip.
Some weapons definitely have less muzzle flip than others but none from the common manufacturers in common service calibers have "too much" unless you want to go racegunning.
Well we will have to agree to disagree. Its dangerous in general allowing inexperienced people pick out anything they will seldom make the right choice.
Yep. People will buy whatever feels best in their hand, but here's a question - were you gripping it right and it felt best in your hand or did you adjust your hold on the weapon until it was the one that felt best in your hand?
Usually it's the second for a beginner.
Alaskapopo
07-13-12, 18:24
brand of gun just "Doesn't fit their hand well OR Has too much muzzle flip"
I'd say this is usually a symptom of people, as you said, having poor grip.
Some weapons definitely have less muzzle flip than others but none from the common manufacturers in common service calibers have "too much" unless you want to go racegunning.
Shooting as fast as possible with accuracy is a plus in racegunning and in a real life gun fight.
Pat
Mr Elbowseed
07-13-12, 18:48
While I used Glock's as the reference gun, I hear this same complaint in regards to the M&P (one of the most shootable pistols made). This just blows my mind.
Even when switching backstraps they dont like it? huh
C4[/QUOTE]
Shooting as fast as possible with accuracy is a plus in racegunning and in a real life gun fight.
Pat
I agree, I just don't think the difference in muzzle flip between factory stock combat handgun from a quality manufacturer (the common makes, M&P, Glock, H&K, never shot a Sig so can't comment) is game changing.
Plumber237
07-14-12, 11:52
So I've read this whole post, since I have alot of down time with internet access at my job. The one thing I read that blew me away, and I don't believe has been commented on by anyone else, was the statement that trigger reset should not be the reasoning for buying/not buying a handgun. I think that this could not be any farther from the truth. My experience to use as an example was shooting a friend's stock M&P 40 that had absolutely no noticeable reset, you literally could not feel the engagement of the seer. I feel that I am a competent pistol shooter and I would not have felt comfortable using that gun in a hd/sd situation, as performing double and triple tap drills were a pain. It was a much slower rhythm, since you basically had to let the trigger out all the way until it stopped, unless you were comfortable guessing where the reset was...not this guy. I am not ragging on M&P's either, this was just a rare one that had no discernable reset.
So I've read this whole post, since I have alot of down time with internet access at my job. The one thing I read that blew me away, and I don't believe has been commented on by anyone else, was the statement that trigger reset should not be the reasoning for buying/not buying a handgun. I think that this could not be any farther from the truth. My experience to use as an example was shooting a friend's stock M&P 40 that had absolutely no noticeable reset, you literally could not feel the engagement of the seer. I feel that I am a competent pistol shooter and I would not have felt comfortable using that gun in a hd/sd situation, as performing double and triple tap drills were a pain. It was a much slower rhythm, since you basically had to let the trigger out all the way until it stopped, unless you were comfortable guessing where the reset was...not this guy. I am not ragging on M&P's either, this was just a rare one that had no discernable reset.
If you talk to most high level Competition shooters, they will generally say that a hard reset is a negative to them.
I can also make the point that shooting with a gun that has a hard reset will make it harder for new shooters to run the weapon faster as they progress in their training.
See this thread for more info: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=109016
Does it take longer to understand where an M&P trigger resets? Yes. Can it be done? Yes (am proof). ;)
C4
Plumber237
07-14-12, 14:02
Thanks for the input Grant, especially the link to your other thread. Resetting during recoil is something I am going to definately try to learn, I'm sure it'll take some time to get used to it. My LE skills class definately beat the shoot off the reset practice into my head. After having it pointed out it's like I've been missing out on something that could help me become a faster shooter.
Thanks,
Plumber
Thanks for the input Grant, especially the link to your other thread. Resetting during recoil is something I am going to definately try to learn, I'm sure it'll take some time to get used to it. My LE skills class definately beat the shoot off the reset practice into my head. After having it pointed out it's like I've been missing out on something that could help me become a faster shooter.
Thanks,
Plumber
Most LE are taught to shoot to the reset (riding the link) and then never get any further training to get off of this and learn to reset the trigger during recoil. The clue that you are riding the link is if someone can HEAR the clicking of the trigger resetting.
C4
Alaskapopo
08-02-12, 18:01
Most LE are taught to shoot to the reset (riding the link) and then never get any further training to get off of this and learn to reset the trigger during recoil. The clue that you are riding the link is if someone can HEAR the clicking of the trigger resetting.
C4
Very true and in fact most LEO's are not really taught to shoot fast. Most qualificaiton courses have par times and they are usually generious and the firearms instructors are happy so long as they make it under time with their hits. I hate this mentality because speed is half of the equation and most are not getting taught to improve their speed.
Pat
mikebenedict
08-03-12, 09:30
HK P7M8
SIG P5
WC 1911
M&P 9mm FS
M&P 45 Mid
Walther PPS
Walther PPQ
Glock GEN 2 G19
Glock GEN 2 G17
Glock GEN 3 G19
Browning HP
S&W 3953
You certainly need more pistols
HK P7M8
SIG P5
WC 1911
M&P 9mm FS
M&P 45 Mid
Walther PPS
Walther PPQ
Glock GEN 2 G19
Glock GEN 2 G17
Glock GEN 3 G19
Browning HP
S&W 3953
You certainly need more pistols
Right you are! I just picked up an HK P7 M13!
C4
This is very true. Our department recently changed up the qualification to include lots of speed shooting at short distances. Many of the officers had a very hard time qualifying on with the speed shooting even though distances were only 5 and 7 yards. Pretty scary really.
Very true and in fact most LEO's are not really taught to shoot fast. Most qualificaiton courses have par times and they are usually generious and the firearms instructors are happy so long as they make it under time with their hits. I hate this mentality because speed is half of the equation and most are not getting taught to improve their speed.
Pat
Richard Belott
08-04-12, 10:27
Good info. I would add that most people struggle with getting a suprise break with the trigger pull. I have been a professional firearms instructor for the last 11 years.
Very true and in fact most LEO's are not really taught to shoot fast. For that matter, most people will never know what it is like to grip it, rip it, and race as a GM. But they will still have an opinion. ;)
Alaskapopo
08-04-12, 15:25
Good info. I would add that most people struggle with getting a suprise break with the trigger pull. I have been a professional firearms instructor for the last 11 years.
I understand the concept of a surprise break and have been taught that way back when. But I have started questioning it lately. I know exactly when my gun is going to fire generally and I shoot better knowing that especially when I am working on accuracy drills at distance. I don't want it to be a surprise. I think we teach this way for new shooters who have a tendancy to flinch. But for more skilled shooters its really not what is happening.
pat
For that matter, most people will never know what it is like to grip it, rip it, and race as a GM. But they will still have an opinion. ;)
You mean credibility is variable by topic, experience and capability? :D
It should. Applies to rebuilding automatic transmissions.
mike benedict
08-05-12, 05:50
Right you are! I just picked up an HK P7 M13!
C4
Let me know if you need a holster
Very true and in fact most LEO's are not really taught to shoot fast. Most qualificaiton courses have par times and they are usually generious and the firearms instructors are happy so long as they make it under time with their hits. I hate this mentality because speed is half of the equation and most are not getting taught to improve their speed.
Pat
So much so, that I recall being told constantly during quals "slow down Mike and you'll be pulling better qual scores". This greatly annoyed me because I was passing just fine, and I was intentionally trying to stress myself and shoot more realistically. I couldn't care less about the difference between an 80% and a 99%, what I care about is my ability to build that muscle memory and fire effectively under stress and at a real world pace, because you and I both know that nothing can prepare you for the adrenaline dump.
SpyderMan2k4
08-05-12, 12:49
To break Grants point down even further (people dont like certain guns cause they dont even hold it properly), they think the same thing about the grip itself. Ive taught (and tried to teach) a number of shooters the proper grip, and most dont like it. Rotating the support hand wrist forward an locking that tendon is unnatural and does feel weird at first. The response i get most often is "this grip has always worked for me." Oh really? Based on what? The gun hasnt flown out of your hands when firing? Lets see the credentials and national titles showing me how the grip has worked.
It took about 2 years to convince a friend of mine the change his grip. Somethin finally made him realize i was shooting way better and faster, and it had nothin to do with my finger moving quicker. Naturally, he said "i understand now why you ask how exactly has that worked for me... my grip sucked!"
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