Autism vs. Autism Spectrum

[Belmont31R]

Just curious to see what other people's thoughts on this are. I always remembered Autism was 1 in 150 when I was younger and now its 1 in 80 according to all the stuff I see. Its my understanding Autism was changed to "austism spectrum" which also includes things like Aspergers which accounts for the increase in 'autism' where the definition was expanded so it includes other thing besides Autism (classic). Ive been around a few Austism classic kids and its pretty obvious. Our kids are nothing like that and want to be social. They have a neighbor kid right next door who is a year younger but they want to play with him all the time and they have other friends they ask about a lot. Their motor skills are on track according to all the official testing we have had done. Aspergers seems the exact opposite with no language delays but delayed physical development and these kids concentrate on one task often way above what would be normal for their age. No official testing the school system has done has put them into motor development delays just language.

This is regarding our kids and they do have language development issues which they had been in ELE (Early Learning Environment) for a year and half. They are now in regular kindergarten but still see a speech specialist one hour a week.

The issue is we have had a couple people outside of the school environment suggest Autism or Aspergers. The latest just today, a pediatrician, suggested we take them to a neurologist. They have been evaluated by the school multiple times (their former ELE teacher has a degree in early childhood education and their former speech teacher has a masters in speech and language). All the evaluations the school has done has come back saying they are just speech delayed with NO motor skills delay, autism or anything else.

They are 5 year old twins born 06/07 and were born at 35.5 weeks naturally.

We also made friends with another kid and his parents who were in the same ELE class and we are fairly familiar with different delays or conditions in kids. Ive been around a few REAL autistic kids and you just know right off the bat with those kids. Our kids seem normal to us (compared to many other kids with no diagnosed issues) aside from the language delay which was explained during their stay in the hospital after being born. It was explained they would be 6 MOS to 1 YR behind due to being twins and premature. So we are dealing with that and have gotten them what we feel is appropriate help.


Im just curious how a pediatrician, today, can spend less than 2 minutes with them and suggest we go see a neurologist about aspergers or autism. They are very social with other kids including our neighbors and friends they made at school. They are always asking to go play with other kids or when they can go to so and so's house. The autistic kids Ive been around were nothing like that. As far as aspergers everything I have read suggests slower motor skills yet higher reading/language skills. They are the opposite with normal motor skills but delayed speech.

They are a bit shy and do cling to each other. I thought this would be normal with twins. They are in separate kinder classes and we try to separate them as much as we can to get 1 on 1 time...like making a run to the grocery store. Ill take one and go through the store while my wife will be at home with the other. They are well behaved in this setting and ask the grocery store clerks for "Buddy Bucks" which is a HEB (local grocery store chain) thing with fake dollars they can use in the machines they have at the store. They can ask this without prompting.

I would like some unbiased opinions on this and see what people have to say. PM's are welcome.

My unbiased opinion as far as I can be being their dad I don't really think its anything like Autism or Aspergers. Yes they have a speech delay which is normal for premature twins. They are VERY social asking to go play with the neighbors kid or their other friends. They can interact with other people (strangers) without prompting. Today we took them for the checkup and they were talking the ear off the nurse who was taking their weight, vitals, hearing, and eye tests. In fact between when the nurse was in and the doctor my wife and I commented about how much they were chatter boxes. I mean they were talking about how one of them had on a batman shirt and brought up 'Joker' with ZERO prompting. They were talking enough the nurse had to tell one to be quiet during the eye test of the other. The Autistic kids I have been around are nothing like our kids. I can't say I have been around an Apsergers diagnosed kid with any regularity to see what they are like but reading about it on about 10 different sites Im sitting here wondering why the doctor after being in the room for 2 minutes would bring that up. They are not motor delayed nor are they speaking above their age nor at they intensely focused on ONE thing.


Thanks and if you read to this point I give you an extra thanks. I am sure there are a lot of readers out there with kids who are dealing with similar be it one thing or another. Theres no shame in it one way or another. Like I told my wife today you can't program your kid with a machine and turn them out the way they are.


* Am time limited so apoligize for any syntax or grammar errors. Will edit back later when I get some free time to sit down and re read what I wrote...:)

[Pork Chop]

As the father of 4, your kids sound fine to me. Pediatricians and Doctors as a whole seem to be so worried about getting sued I think it clouds their judgement sometimes. It's easier to pass you along for more testing"just in case". That's my opinion only, of course, but it's how I see it and it has proven so in our case.

My son plays with a neighbor boy that has Asbergers so I've seen it some. It's noticeable right away. He is behind in most ways and you would notice this right away. He is a good, kind kid but he's not developing mentally with the other kids his age. He is 12 I believe but plays more like 6 or 7.

Your kids sound pretty normal to me dad. It's good to follow up on it though if you're worried.

[montanadave]

I'm not in a position to make any assessments or recommendations regarding your children and would defer to the professionals who have had direct interaction and observation of your boys.

That said, I will make a more general comment with respect to childhood behavioral/developmental assessments and pediatric psychological/psychiatric diagnoses. These comments are based on my professional, albeit limited in the pediatric area, observation of trends in the mental health field.

It seems that every decade or so, there is a "new" diagnosis that becomes the disorder "du jour." Not that many years ago, every kid that was acting out, falling behind, or just requiring more of the teacher's attention was slapped with an ADD/ADHD label and parents were pressured to put the child on meds. There was a period when the entire spectrum of reading disabilities/dyslexia disorders were all the rage. Then we witnessed a significant increase in kids being diagnosed with a bipolar disorder and treated with some pretty potent psychoactive medications. For several years now, autism and the autism spectrum disorders have been garnering headlines and airtime, fueled in part by the controversial claims about childhood vaccines.

I certainly don't mean to imply that these disorders aren't legitimate and that individuals who are affected/afflicted should not be properly assessed, diagnosed and afforded quality care. But I do think there is a tendency among both lay people and professionals to be influenced by all the noise and start seeing signs and symptoms where none exist or interpreting "normal" variations in development as indicative of much more serious disorders.

With kids, I tend to look at three major areas. How are they doing in school? How do they get along with their friends and interact with their peers. And how are they doing with their family relationships? I need to see some pretty significant dysfunction in two or more areas before I feel comfortable in labeling a child with a major psychiatric disorder or learning disability.

[6933]

Wife is an OB/GYN Surgeon(she is truly brilliant) and I came close to going to med. school. Good paying job offered on a platter convinced me otherwise. I include that so you understand I do have a good understanding of physiology, biology, etc. Really enjoyed Psychology so took many xtra hrs. We have discussed this topic on many occasions.

Autism is the disease that the Hollywood libs have taken up. The best judge of your children is you. Sounds to me like your kids are fine. I would fight tooth and nail to make sure no labels are given in their files.

****in' a. How many of us would be "diagnosed" with something if we went to school in today's climate?

[tsconver]

Wife is an OB/GYN Surgeon(she is truly brilliant) and I came close to going to med. school. Good paying job offered on a platter convinced me otherwise. I include that so you understand I do have a good understanding of physiology, biology, etc. Really enjoyed Psychology so took many xtra hrs. We have discussed this topic on many occasions.

Autism is the disease that the Hollywood libs have taken up. The best judge of your children is you. Sounds to me like your kids are fine. I would fight tooth and nail to make sure no labels are given in their files.

****in' a. How many of us would be "diagnosed" with something if we went to school in today's climate?

Amen, my wife has been a mental health professional for 20 years. She has a masters and works with mr/mi people daily. She agrees it is a made up liberal disease as most people ten years ago would have been a simple learning disabilty diagnosis. Everything now is autism, add, adhd, etc.

Hell i would probably be add if i was growing up today.:-)

As far as your kids i had speech issues that were related to ear infections, have you had that looked at.

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[militarymoron]

Autism is the disease that the Hollywood libs have taken up. The best judge of your children is you. Sounds to me like your kids are fine. I would fight tooth and nail to make sure no labels are given in their files.

i'll have to respectfully disagree on this. while i agree that the person who knows your children best is you, you may not be the best 'judge' when it comes to matters like this, and need the help of a reputable expert. it's no different from taking your kid to the doctor when something is up. you're a parent, not a doctor or psychologist (unless you are). while there are quacks out there who think autism is caused by vaccines; autism is real, like diabetes or heart disease. if you buy into the 'it's just made up' thing, you could be overlooking something that your kid needs. err on the side of caution.

i would also not listen to anyone who hasn't seen your kid, and is not familiar with autism spectrum. most people who do not have experience with autism are only familiar with the moderate to severe symptoms and may miss someone who has mild autism. autistic kids can have excellent eye contact, be social, happy, chatty affectionate, and not at all 'lost in their own world'. but what you may not see is how autism affects the way they process information and learn, and just chalk it up to a 'speech delay'. well, i'd like to know what that delay is caused by, and also look for the more subtle behaviours.

also remember that the school system is likely to say that 'everything's' fine, because they don't want to pay for the extra services that your child may need. same thing with the regional center. especially is they're on the end of the mild end of the spectrum (not aspergers) but display some delayed speech/language, echolalia, or stimming.
if your child really does have autism, getting the label is a necessary step to getting the right treatment. the most important thing is that the child is diagnosed correctly and gets the treatment if needed.
if there's any doubt, get them checked. just MHO.

[Belmont31R]

i'll have to respectfully disagree on this. while i agree that the person who knows your children best is you, you may not be the best 'judge' when it comes to matters like this, and need the help of a reputable expert. it's no different from taking your kid to the doctor when something is up. you're a parent, not a doctor or psychologist (unless you are). while there are quacks out there who think autism is caused by vaccines, autism is real, like diabetes or heart disease. if you buy into the 'it's just made up' thing, you could be overlooking something that your kid needs. err on the side of caution.

i would also not listen to anyone who hasn't seen your kid, and is not familiar with autism spectrum. most people who do not have experience with autism are only familiar with the moderate to severe symptoms and may miss someone who has mild autism. autistic kids can have excellent eye contact, be social, happy, chatty affectionate, and not at all 'lost in their own world'. but what you may not see is how autism affects the way they process information and learn, and just chalk it up to a 'speech delay'. well, i'd like to know what that delay is caused by, and also look for the more subtle behaviours.

also remember that the school system is likely to say that 'everything's' fine, because they don't want to pay for the extra services that your child may need. same thing with the regional center. especially is they're on the end of the mild end of the spectrum (not aspergers) but display some delayed speech/language, echolalia, or stimming.
if your child really does have autism, getting the label is a necessary step to getting the right treatment. the most important thing is that the child is diagnosed correctly and gets the treatment if needed.
if there's any doubt, get them checked. just MHO.


I just want to add more here and say we have not been trying to keep our kids from getting labeled as having austism or aspergers. When they were in the ELE program I mentioned before its a program our district offers which is for kids with "special ed" needs so we are already accepting of that, and they are still getting weekly speech classes. I just sat through a big meeting with their teachers, motor skills teacher/counsilor, district rep, school principle, speech therapist, and a few other people and we have done the same a few times before. I don't like paying property taxes but I can't say our district has not done an incredible job with our kids.

That said all these people have come back with the same results time and time again. Our district actually gets paid extra money for "special ed" so its in their best interest money wise to put kids in these classes. Now they are in K and they are in normal classes just see the speech specialist once a week. I briefly met their current speech therapist but our last one was really great and as a father I was glad to see people taking such interest in the kids. While they are in a new school (same district just different school due to districting) these people spent a lot of time with our kids and have the education to back it up. They have also spent time at their ELE teachers house (authorized by the district for off season instruction) and NONE of these people have ever considered an Austism spectrum or aspergers type issue. In fact they have flatly denied it.

So its just not us as parents saying no like we are keeping our kids from getting the help or diagnosis they need. Like I also mentioned we are good friends with another couple who had a kid in the same class and we have hung out at each others houses. He said today he would be floored if the kids were diagnosed with something like that. He has seen them outside of school, at our house, out in public, and he has babysat for us having our boys at his house with his own kid.

We are both fully open to sending them a neuro clinic to get tested. As I said we are not trying to keep our kids from being diagnosed with anything just don't want to fall into the trap of every kid with an issue and getting diagnosed with something and put on pills. We are not looking to pay someone a copay and being told this pill is going to solve all our issues. We have been 100% supportive of the programs they have been put into so far and when they were in ELE I was the only dad who attended all of their field trips they did that year.

And we have spent a lot of time researching things like Aspergers and Autism. While I know they are very real conditions I can't see either of the boys getting diagnosed with this type of stuff. Its normal, from the reading I have done, for kids to exhibit a couple symptoms. Kids can be shy, kids can be a little slow to catch a ball, kids can be slow to learn language skills, ect. But when you really look at these lists I don't see our kids having these conditions and I don't see it when they are interacting with other kids. I was REALLY shy as a kid and Im still shy in person (get social anxiety) so I can understand that about our kids. But like me they do open up and I don't think its autism.


Thanks everyone else for the replies. :)

[militarymoron]

belmont - totally understand.
i'll follow up with a PM.

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

I am not a Doctor, I have no special training, I am however a parent.

Belmont - have you ever had their hearing tested? I ask this because it if it is a speech issue - maybe they are merely repeating what they 'hear'.

Myself, I've have walked out of a few different Doctors offices over the years, and I would strongly encourage everyone to understand you have that power. Any one of them does NOT have ALL the answers.

My father was a surgeon - two of his basic lines regarding generally healthy kids - 1. they are resilient 2. Check in when they are 22

Two things I am a believer in - in general everyone has deficiencies on a sliding scale of severity, as such, labels create expectations (or lack thereof) both on the principals as well as those around them. Real triumph is about learning to work with / around our own deficiencies. Secondly, and on that note - little victories and the celebration thereof: Children need little victories as they are the stepping stones to real accomplishment. Little victories beget self confidence, and self confidence is what allows us to walk through the door. Having prior success combined with self confidence is what makes us get up off the floor and try harder after a tough beat.

You know your kids. Have confidence in yourself and your plan. Seek out a second "qualified" opinion. Create opportunities for your children to succeed, praise the shit out them for it. Move forward. Check in when they are 22 - know what I mean?


Good luck to you and yours.

[Smuckatelli]

Belmont, where is your wife from? Do you live in a bi-lingual household?

[Belmont31R]

Belmont, where is your wife from? Do you live in a bi-lingual household?




It sounds like it at times but no my wife is from Indiana and Im from SoCal.

[toasterlocker]

also remember that the school system is likely to say that 'everything's' fine, because they don't want to pay for the extra services that your child may need. same thing with the regional center.

Not trying to stir the pot, but it depends on where funding comes from and how it gets distributed. Some schools have been accused of excessively classifying kids as having a disability of some kind in an attempt to get extra state/federal funding. Whether or not any of those accusations are fair, I can't say, just because there are so many cases and obviously each case is very different. I admittedly haven't done a lot of research either way, but it is something to consider and look into.

[militarymoron]

yeah, i've heard of that happening too - over-diagnosing to get money, or under-diagnosing to save money (which is worse as the child is denied services they're entitled to). that's why i'd suggest an independent evaluation (or two), from parties that have no financial interest or gain.

[DeltaSierra]

that's why i'd suggest an independent evaluation (or two), from parties that have no financial interest or gain.

This is the best advice given in the thread so far....

[WillBrink]

Thanks everyone else for the replies. :)

Sounds like you have a great handle on it, a solid approach, and great attitude. Although, as you point out, these are real conditions for some (a close friend has a son who is severely autistic), it truly seems as if there's a big trend to literally diagnose and treat natural differences in children that make them who they are.

I have a handful of child psychologists I know well who feel the same way and they get really angry at how fast some MDs are to title some kid with one of these disorders, and although well meaning (most of the time...) they are getting caught up perhaps is a very well oiled marketing machine of big pharma looking to "develop" a new market.

There's now SSRIs for your pets for fu%$ sake.

Some kids are just different, have their own learning style, learning curves (I was a very slow learner myself to be sure and didn't get my mojo up 'till later) and personalities, which is a good thing in my view and what makes them unique, different, special.

That said, you're the parent and know them better then anyone as others point out, so trust your instincts and act accordingly.

Going slightly OT, there's a number of studies showing strong correlation between various dietary factors, especially Omega 3 lipids (eg, EPA/DHA) and learning disorders.

My take on that is, although the data may not be "smoking gun" strong, it can't hurt and worst case, good for their general health and cost you a few $$$. A "cure"? Of course not. Of possible value to the overall picture? Data strongly suggests the answer is yes.

Some general info if interested:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/461131-fish-oil-learning-disabilities/

[montanadave]

A recent NYT article discussing some of the controversy surrounding the expanded criteria for diagnosis of autistic spectrum disorders:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/sunday-review/the-autism-wars.html?_r=1&hp

[kartoffel]

Autism was 1 in 150 when I was younger and now its 1 in 80

False. Autism DIAGNOSES are now reportedly "1 in 80".

[chuckman]

It is an over-used term and it is over diagnosed. My oldest son, turned 10 last week, has Aspergers (on the 'better' end). The peds doc did not touch that with a 10-foot pole; he referred us out. My son spent the better part of 4 years in speech therapy, and to listen to him you know he isn't 'normal', though his vocabulary is quite good (his cadence and rhythym is a bit halted). His math is grade level or above, but really struggles with reading/reading comprehension. We home-school anyway so his education is tailored his learning style. Now, his next-youngest brother is 8 (9 in July), and is WAY smart and articulate, very much above grade level. I think the competition is good and actually helps my older son. Feel free to PM with any specific questions.

[JohnnyC]

If you don't mind, I'll copy your posts and let me mother take a look at them. She's not a doc but has her masters in special education and was teacher of the year in her district (as a special ed teacher no less), turned it down so that she could continue teaching instead of taking the speaking engagements.

She's been in special ed at the elementary level almost her entire teaching career, and is currently a reading specialist. She has a lot of experience with stuff like this, recognizing early signs, etc. I do not disagree that you need a second medical opinion, but she has lots of experience across the board with elementary age childhood development and I'm sure she'd be more than happy to give you a straightforward opinion if you'd like, she lives this kind of stuff every day (and takes too much work home with her in my opinion).

[ryr8828]

Apparently labels have to be put on everything now a days. My guess is that your kids are just fine.

I've raised my kids, stepkids, grandkids. I never met a kid who had a long attention span, yet doctors have to put a label on it. Possible profit motive?
Jump into my world and walk on a construction job and look at the attention span and speech patterns of some of the sons of bitches I have to deal with.

My daughter was doing her homework one night and I heard her say "I'm so stupid, I'll never be smart". She was having a little trouble with the convoluted way they teach things now. I looked at her homework problem and explained the best I could old school and she understood it. Now she has a masters in psychology and is a counselor. Goes into homes where they have trouble and that scares the hell out of me but doesn't seem to bother her.

Most people try like hell to validate their existence. I'd say that the NEA is first in that regard and the AMA is second.

I wasn't counting the government, we all know they'd be 1st place in any contest like that.