Know Your Target!

[Jay Cunningham]

NATCHEZ, Miss. -- A Natchez man shot and killed his wife when he mistook her for an intruder in their home, according to police.

Police Chief Mike Mullins said Glenn and Deborah Mizell awoke around 4 a.m. Tuesday to the sound of their barking dog. Mullins said Glenn Mizell went to investigate, taking a pistol with him.

Mullins said Glenn Mizell began checking through the house and was unaware his wife had left the bedroom and gone into the kitchen. Mullins said when Mizell saw her figure in the dark, he fired his gun once.

Authorities said he shot Deborah Mizell, 49, once in the chest and died at the scene.

Mullins said a preliminary investigation shows the shooting was an accident.

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[Failure2Stop]

It's these types of "accidents" that label us as trigger happy half-wits.

I consider this to be negligent homicide.

What threat warranted lethal force?
What threat at all was identified?

There is no reason to not have a light. None.

[k9dpd]

and people wonder why I preach having a flashlight on your gun.

[DocHolliday01]

and people wonder why I preach having a flashlight on your gun.

+1 Best add-on you can have on your gun imo.

[rhino]

I'm not Columbo, but I'd be curious to learn what kind of relationship the guy had with his wife. It could have been a negligent lack of proper identitification, or maybe something more sinister.

[John_Wayne777]

Score one for the "KISS!!" people who insist there's no reason to have a light mounted on your home defense weapon....

[markm]

Score one for the "KISS!!" people who insist there's no reason to have a light mounted on your home defense weapon....

I've not seen anyone here post that. But I have read it over the years on TOS.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've not seen anyone here post that. But I have read it over the years on TOS.

I think JW is referring to the mobs over there...

[markm]

I think JW is referring to the mobs over there...

Indeed! No need to rehash the KISS debate! :p

[ddemis]

Just a cheap 20$ flashlight could have prevented this tragedy. Or some good planing, tell the wife to stay put while you check out the noise and call the police etc.

[Buckaroo]

Just a cheap 20$ flashlight could have prevented this tragedy. Or some good planing, tell the wife to stay put while you check out the noise and call the police etc.

I agree! I would have know where my wife was before I left my bedroom or I would have been looking for her not a intruder!

Flashlights are cheap! Life is precious!

[ThirdWatcher]

rhino, you THINK like Columbo, though!:)

[rhino]

rhino, you THINK like Columbo, though!:)


I need a wrinkled trenchcoat and a cigar!

I'm glad I have two lights on my house gun. You can't shoot it if you don't know what it is!

[ThirdWatcher]

Yeah, but would drive that ratty old french car?:D

[Lumpy196]

Good thing he didnt compromise his position with a flashlight :mad:

[Hawkeye]

Good thing he didnt compromise his position with a flashlight :mad:

That can get you killed you know.

[WS6]

I'm not Columbo, but I'd be curious to learn what kind of relationship the guy had with his wife. It could have been a negligent lack of proper identitification, or maybe something more sinister.

+1

Back when I was dating, if I woke up the first thing I noticed was whether or not my GF was in the bed. How can you NOT first wonder where your significant other is if you wake up to "something out of place" going on?

I too question the validity of the word "negligent" in this case.

Not saying it was purposeful, but just that it looks...odd.

[GastonG-NoVa]

I probly would have shot the figure in the kitchen as well.........I know it wouldn't have been my wife!!:p

She would have to get lost to find the thing.

[toddackerman]

+1

Back when I was dating, if I woke up the first thing I noticed was whether or not my GF was in the bed. How can you NOT first wonder where your significant other is if you wake up to "something out of place" going on?

I too question the validity of the word "negligent" in this case.

Not saying it was purposeful, but just that it looks...odd.

Back when I was dating, I had to check 2 bedrooms for GF's! :)

Seriously though, you gotta' have a light, and why on earth IF the wife was in the BR with him when they heard the noise, and there are no kids (none mentioned) in the house, why would he try to clear the house?

That's why along with my 1911 and light, there is my cell phone pre-dialed to hit 911, and then...."Hunker Down" and wait for the Calvary!" That's what they get paid for, and if there is no imminent threat in the BR, why go looking for one?

[Hawkeye]

Seriously though, you gotta' have a light, and why on earth IF the wife was in the BR with him when they heard the noise, and there are no kids (none mentioned) in the house, why would he try to clear the house?


Because its his house. End of discussion.

[Jay Cunningham]

End of discussion?

Ummm....

[toddackerman]

Because its his house. End of discussion.

And he's an idiot who just shot his wife.

And I'll let you know when I'm done. Thank you very much!

[Hawkeye]

I meant end of discussion as in its a mans duty and right to remove intruders from his home, and no one elses place to suggest otherwise. (not end of discussion of this thread)

It is indeed obvious that he was an idiot. He didnt use the proper equipment, didnt have the proper training, etc. He killed his wife as a result. He did what he was supposed to do, he just failed to properly prepare and equip himself to do it. That lies squarely on his head. Its sad that his wife had to pay for it.

Sorry I wasnt more clear in my earlier post. Been a long day. We all have the responsiblity to protect our house/home, and our families from intruders/invaders. Thus it is our responsibility to to properly equip, prepare, and train ourselves to effectively and properly do that. OUR responsibility. Each of us individually. No one elses.

[losbronces]

I'm not Columbo, but I'd be curious to learn what kind of relationship the guy had with his wife. It could have been a negligent lack of proper identitification, or maybe something more sinister.

I'm inclined to agree that it looks worse than an accident. What was the threat? No light and yet he put a round right into her chest.

[BigTinVA]

I wonder why the wife had the desire to go to the kitchen after hearing the dog barking and knowing her husband went to investigate. I would have stayed in bed and let her clear the damned house. Both are idiots.

[QuickStrike]

Pretty depressing. Light or no light, that guy's an idiot.

Could have pied his way around a corner and stayed put until he's identified the threat. He had home turf advantage and element of surprise.

I don't really trust most people to stumble around my approximate vicinity with a loaded firearm during serious bihniz. Most are good people but their level of competence with firearm handling is questionable.

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm just curious, Hawkeye - have you ever read Grant's Civilians and Home Defense (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1131) thread?

[Heavy Metal]

I wonder if this reeeaaalllyyy was an 'accident'?

[toddackerman]

I meant end of discussion as in its a mans duty and right to remove intruders from his home, and no one elses place to suggest otherwise. (not end of discussion of this thread)

It is indeed obvious that he was an idiot. He didnt use the proper equipment, didnt have the proper training, etc. He killed his wife as a result. He did what he was supposed to do, he just failed to properly prepare and equip himself to do it. That lies squarely on his head. Its sad that his wife had to pay for it.

Sorry I wasnt more clear in my earlier post. Been a long day. We all have the responsiblity to protect our house/home, and our families from intruders/invaders. Thus it is our responsibility to to properly equip, prepare, and train ourselves to effectively and properly do that. OUR responsibility. Each of us individually. No one elses.

Yes...it's been a long day. No blood...no foul.

It's everyones right to decide what they will do or not do. I for one however have a plan to barricade, stand and defend an environment that I can control which is my Bedroom (given that all are inside this environment as his wife was) with the weapon (and light at the ready) trained on the door while I call for help. If I have to stay there for an hour I will because I'm prepared, and in control of the situation should it escalate.

My point was that once you start looking for the "Bumps in the Night" you give up a lot to chance, and ultimate control.

[QuickStrike]

Yes...it's been a long day. No blood...no foul.

It's everyones right to decide what they will do or not do. I for one however have a plan to barricade, stand and defend an environment that I can control which is my Bedroom (given that all are inside this environment as his wife was) with the weapon (and light at the ready) trained on the door while I call for help. If I have to stay there for an hour I will because I'm prepared, and in control of the situation should it escalate.

My point was that once you start looking for the "Bumps in the Night" you give up a lot to chance, and ultimate control.

I would do that too, if all my family is rounded up and with me. If not then...

[The_Biased_Observer]

Sad to see so many here call this poor guy an idiot. He is after all, the one who had the cajones to seek out an intruder in his own home. It seems many would be content with cuddling in the corner while the authorities are summoned.:confused:

Clearly, there were mistakes made but to label him an idiot is extreme.

Some mistakes I can see are: lack of planning in the event of an intruder, demonstrated be the wife's movement from the known room without communicating the move, a lack of a light (this is assumed, based upon the story). It is odd however, that despite the lack of a light he was able to center punch her.

It is reasonable to assume that an unauthorized person or persons in your home, in the middle of the night, having forced entry in some manner, intends to do you harm.

[rhino]

He's an idiot because he killed his wife in an act of gross negligence, not because he sought to protect himself and his family.

[toddackerman]

Sad to see so many here call this poor guy an idiot. He is after all, the one who had the cajones to seek out an intruder in his own home. It seems many would be content with cuddling in the corner while the authorities are summoned.:confused:

Clearly, there were mistakes made but to label him an idiot is extreme.

Some mistakes I can see are: lack of planning in the event of an intruder, demonstrated be the wife's movement from the known room without communicating the move, a lack of a light (this is assumed, based upon the story). It is odd however, that despite the lack of a light he was able to center punch her.

It is reasonable to assume that an unauthorized person or persons in your home, in the middle of the night, having forced entry in some manner, intends to do you harm.

And that is why you take control of the environment that you CAN control, keep the wife in the BR, dial 911, train your weapon and light on the door,......and WAIT!

This guy did everything wrong, and his "Cajones" which obviously weren't attached to his "Gray Matter" were way too big for his intellect, lack of planning, ability, and training. No one in there right mind would LOOK for trouble, as this confused person did. And make no mistake...he is confused, misguided, and obviously way out of his element. He only makes it easier for the Anti Gun Fraternity to make a case for disarming all of us.

[The_Biased_Observer]

And that is why you take control of the environment that you CAN control, keep the wife in the BR, dial 911, train your weapon and light on the door,......and WAIT!

This guy did everything wrong, and his "Cajones" which obviously weren't attached to his "Gray Matter" were way too big for his intellect, lack of planning, ability, and training. No one in there right mind would LOOK for trouble, as this confused person did. And make no mistake...he is confused, misguided, and obviously way out of his element. He only makes it easier for the Anti Gun Fraternity to make a case for disarming all of us.


Spoken like an agent of the government.

Who, in their own home can be considered "Looking for trouble"?:rolleyes: If someone is prowling about on my property, they will be challenged. I ain't cowering in a corner unless required by other circumstances. My house would have time to burn down (with me in it) before any LE showed up. AND...... I have kids on the other side of the home.

They guy screwed up by not ID'ing his target (and the previously mentioned lack to plan). Saying he was asking for trouble is a stretch of liberal proportions.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Assuming that he had no light (which is a situation many will find themselves in in HD situations, rightly or wrongly) what necessitated him to fire at his wife? Was there no verbal warning? ("Get out of my house!" or "Drop whatever is in your hands!") And if the story is true, there was no threat at all to himself, yet he fired on an unknown target. Bottom line, if you don't have a light, mitigate the risk of misidentifying a target by using some sort of warning or waiting until the target is a threat. No reason to end up killing a loved one, which is supposed to be the reason you are engaging in home defense to begin with. But the best of all solutions is to simply buy a light.;)

[toddackerman]

Spoken like an agent of the government.

Who, in their own home can be considered "Looking for trouble"?:rolleyes: If someone is prowling about on my property, they will be challenged. I ain't cowering in a corner unless required by other circumstances. My house would have time to burn down (with me in it) before any LE showed up. AND...... I have kids on the other side of the home.

They guy screwed up by not ID'ing his target (and the previously mentioned lack to plan). Saying he was asking for trouble is a stretch of liberal proportions.

Read the story line. The guy had no kids in the house. Only his wife. In your own house, hearing a bump in the night, and searching for it classifies as "Looking for trouble". This is not a "Liberal" stand, it's an intelligent one.....look what happened! This is what "Unnecessary Challenging" can lead to.

There was no need to leave the "Safe" confines of the BR, and I don't think any trained individual would consider this "cowering", but good tactical common sense. Something that more folks should spend time acquiring, IF they have the capacity to do so. If not, they shouldn't even consider having lethal force available to them in the form of a firearm until they receive such training. Again, look what happened. And again, it makes us all look like a bunch of "Rambo" wannabes.

In every lethal confrontation from what I have seen for "Justifiable Use of Lethal Force", there needs to be 3 things present to justify use of deadly force (unless you live in a "Castle Law" state) and they are "Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy". The last 2 clearly were not present as an attack was never launched by the intruder. IF this gets challenged in court by the family of the wife, I'm sure this will become very relevant, as it is to all of those "trained" individuals who have replied to this thread.

This guy was running on "Testosterone", and very little training and common sense.

[rhino]

If someone doesn't have a light in their home at night, why couldn't they just use the little lever or button on the wall called a "light switch"?

Color me wacky, but my flashlights are primarily for if I can't get to the switch safely or if the lights don't work for some reason.

[toddackerman]

If someone doesn't have a light in their home at night, why couldn't they just use the little lever or button on the wall called a "light switch"?

Color me wacky, but my flashlights are primarily for if I can't get to the switch safely or if the lights don't work for some reason.

Rhino,

I've read enough of your threads to say .....You're not "Wacky", but I would propose that a Flash Light only illuminates the threat. The wall switch illuminates everything including yourself giving up a Tactical Advantage, just like an outside light source would, or silhouetting yourself with a light behind you. You might reconsider if the Flash Light shouldn't be your "Primary" Tactical light source instead of the "Wall Switch" for this reason.

With regards to the thread, regardless of whether or not the shooter had a light, or access to a "Wall Switch", he didn't ID the target before engaging.

Trying not to Hi-Jack this thread, but I think it's important to the theme of "Knowing Your Target"....

Here are 3 excellent Tactical Light Video's from a very reputable instructor, Ken Good who use to be with the Sure Fire Institute until joining Strategos International. I think he still is a consultant to Sure Fire, but unsure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga6ECYv16Ac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ObSKdP1AI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGcjIwZupH8

I was very "Humbled" when I first watched these. I've had basic Tactical Light training, but nothing compares to the content in these videos. They are excellent in my opinion, and maybe should be tacked.?

For those who still think they have the intelligence, ability, and training to "Clear a House" (unless absolutely necessary, and there's no other way out alive) after watching these, I'd love to meet you, and possibly learn something from you. On the other hand, if you're not anywheres close to these types of capabilities demonstrated in the videos, your Wife would greatly appreciate you staying in a "Safe Place" and waiting it out so you don't repeat the error of the shooters ways in the story line.

Hope this helps....everyone.

[Jay Cunningham]

Good discussion here, with valid points on both sides. Just be careful with straying into personal attacks - otherwise carry on.

[rhino]

With regards to the thread, regardless of whether or not the shooter had a light, or access to a "Wall Switch", he didn't ID the target before engaging.

Trying not to Hi-Jack this thread, but I think it's important to the theme of "Knowing Your Target"....


That's the very bottom line in my opinion. You can't "know your target" if you can't identify it with certainty.

Good points on the flashlight vs. room lights.

[Redmanfms]

Read the story line. The guy had no kids in the house. Only his wife. In your own house, hearing a bump in the night, and searching for it classifies as "Looking for trouble". This is not a "Liberal" stand, it's an intelligent one.....look what happened! This is what "Unnecessary Challenging" can lead to.

There was no need to leave the "Safe" confines of the BR, and I don't think any trained individual would consider this "cowering", but good tactical common sense. Something that more folks should spend time acquiring, IF they have the capacity to do so. If not, they shouldn't even consider having lethal force available to them in the form of a firearm until they receive such training. Again, look what happened. And again, it makes us all look like a bunch of "Rambo" wannabes.

In every lethal confrontation from what I have seen for "Justifiable Use of Lethal Force", there needs to be 3 things present to justify use of deadly force (unless you live in a "Castle Law" state) and they are "Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy". The last 2 clearly were not present as an attack was never launched by the intruder. IF this gets challenged in court by the family of the wife, I'm sure this will become very relevant, as it is to all of those "trained" individuals who have replied to this thread.

This guy was running on "Testosterone", and very little training and common sense.

Ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf?????

Cops generally don't like it when they are called out for nothing.

Most people regardless of training are going to get up and check if they hear a bump in the night. A noise that wakes you could have been anything. You might have just been awakened by the AC compressor bumping as it cranks on. I was once stirred because a skunk had overturned my garbage can. Should I have cowered in my bedroom and phoned the police?

Your arguments are just weak. Hell, it ain't much of a leap to, "but police tell you never to fight back, because fighting back will get you hurt."




This guy's training/common sense meltdown came when he failed to have a light to identify his target, not when he decided to investigate an unknown noise.

[toddackerman]

Ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf?????

Cops generally don't like it when they are called out for nothing.

Most people regardless of training are going to get up and check if they hear a bump in the night. A noise that wakes you could have been anything. You might have just been awakened by the AC compressor bumping as it cranks on. I was once stirred because a skunk had overturned my garbage can. Should I have cowered in my bedroom and phoned the police?

Your arguments are just weak. Hell, it ain't much of a leap to, "but police tell you never to fight back, because fighting back will get you hurt."




This guy's training/common sense meltdown came when he failed to have a light to identify his target, not when he decided to investigate an unknown noise.

Please enlighten us.....

What is the basis of your knowledge/ opinion? What type of training have you had on clearing houses, or low light tactical training. Have you ever cleared your house under stress? Would you know where to start, or where the bad guys would hide? Or do you know the inside of your Bed Room better, and would you be better prepared to defend yourself with your light and weapon trained on the door, versus wandering in the dark?

Investigating the unknown situation without need, training (or a light) is what got this guys wife killed....unecessarily! The LEO's do respond even to "Wolf Cries". That's one of the things they get paid to do, and they don't get to vote. Just like getting Grandma's kitten out of a tree. They are our public servants, and God Bless 'em.

I guarantee you that if you were to take a poll of the "Informed and Trained" (not all Cops) they would all say the same thing, as they have in the other posts (and on this thread) regarding Home Self Defense (which you should really read), and I'll bet that the vast majority would always say to "Hunker Down, Call for Help, Control the Environment that you CAN, and WAIT!" This again is all predicated by the fact that all of the inhabitants of this home were in the Bed Room.

What I think most folks with training and common sense would believe to be "weak" is looking for "Bumps in the Night" and killing an innocent good guy/ girl....or "Skunk" in your garbage.

Many on this site IMO need to get a grip on reality, and stop thinking that just because they have a weapon, that they can take control of the many situations that can and do occur in a lethal confrontation. I'd love to play "Flashlight Tag" in your house just once to show you how many times you could die by looking needlessly for trouble. I promise you I'd win...and it's your environment.

Did you take a look at the videos I posted. Do you think you could do what guys like Ken Good do, and not get shot if I was hiding behind your couch? Maybe think again, use your head, and reduce the odds of getting yourself killed for no reason.

The reason I'm so emphatic about this is I don't want to see any of the Good Guys (or their wives) needlessly get shot, and, I don't want the Gun Grabbers to gain anymore ammo against us.

I really don't have anything more to add.

[Hawkeye]

Many on this site IMO need to get a grip on reality, and stop thinking that just because they have a weapon, that they can take control of the many situations that can and do occur in a lethal confrontation.

And some should not be quite so pompous and presumptuous as to others plans and abilities.


I'd love to play "Flashlight Tag" in your house just once to show you how many times you could die by looking needlessly for trouble. I promise you I'd win...and it's your environment.

I'll take you up on that bet anytime your ready there mr billybob badass. You just let me know when you want to make the trip down.


Did you take a look at the videos I posted. Do you think you could do what guys like Ken Good do, and not get shot if I was hiding behind your couch? Maybe think again, use your head, and reduce the odds of getting yourself killed for no reason.

Quite familiar with Ken. You arent him. And I'll be the one who decides what reasons I will and will not die for, not you.


I'm done here. The idiocy level of what could have been a good discussion is heading off the chart.

[R.Miksits]

How many criminals are paying to get trained by the professionals?

How many criminals have the years of experince the professionals have?

Lets face it were fighting a vastly untrained criminal organazations.

I have not nor do I ever want to meet a criminal with the skill leval of Ken, pat,larry ETC ETC

In my county theres a fee after so many times of calling the police for no reason. I usally am awakend by a sound 1 or 2 times a month. I clear my house to to find my dog awake chewing on something or something fell off the counter. Am I looking for trouble? no, Id be looking for more trouble to have a SWAT team kick in my door and shoot my dog for chewing up a sock.

[KDG]

I don’t see anything wrong with investigating your own home if you hear a noise.
Both my home defense pistol and rifle have lights on them.

But……like others said....

Too many things don’t make sense in this story.

If you wake up in the middle of the night or whatever time it is from a suspicious noise wouldn’t you be aware your own wife isn’t sleeping next to you and could give you some kind of clue it could be her making the noise in the home?

Or if she sleeps in a separate bedroom another possibility is she is roaming around in her own home for whatever reason….she got hungry and wanted a sandwich.

Or she was out and got home late.

Wouldn’t you check the other side of your bed first or check her bedroom? Give me a break.

If I was an investigator I would be seeing what kind of relationship they had and how bad he wanted to get rid of her.

Who knows, just maybe he knew exactly what his target was :eek:

[Kravin Moorehead]

Please enlighten us.....

What is the basis of your knowledge/ opinion? What type of training have you had on clearing houses, or low light tactical training. Have you ever cleared your house under stress? Would you know where to start, or where the bad guys would hide? Or do you know the inside of your Bed Room better, and would you be better prepared to defend yourself with your light and weapon trained on the door, versus wandering in the dark?
Investigating the unknown situation without need, training (or a light) is what got this guys wife killed....unecessarily! The LEO's do respond even to "Wolf Cries". That's one of the things they get paid to do, and they don't get to vote. Just like getting Grandma's kitten out of a tree. They are our public servants, and God Bless 'em.

I guarantee you that if you were to take a poll of the "Informed and Trained" (not all Cops) they would all say the same thing, as they have in the other posts (and on this thread) regarding Home Self Defense (which you should really read), and I'll bet that the vast majority would always say to "Hunker Down, Call for Help, Control the Environment that you CAN, and WAIT!" This again is all predicated by the fact that all of the inhabitants of this home were in the Bed Room.

What I think most folks with training and common sense would believe to be "weak" is looking for "Bumps in the Night" and killing an innocent good guy/ girl....or "Skunk" in your garbage.

Many on this site IMO need to get a grip on reality, and stop thinking that just because they have a weapon, that they can take control of the many situations that can and do occur in a lethal confrontation. I'd love to play "Flashlight Tag" in your house just once to show you how many times you could die by looking needlessly for trouble. I promise you I'd win...and it's your environment.

Did you take a look at the videos I posted. Do you think you could do what guys like Ken Good do, and not get shot if I was hiding behind your couch? Maybe think again, use your head, and reduce the odds of getting yourself killed for no reason.

The reason I'm so emphatic about this is I don't want to see any of the Good Guys (or their wives) needlessly get shot, and, I don't want the Gun Grabbers to gain anymore ammo against us.

I really don't have anything more to add.

I wasn't going to chime in untill I read this. I am a combat weapons instructor for the military, so I figure I have a "little" bit of knowledge in this area. One, having a weapon mounted light if extreamly useful. One of the things we teach is using the brightness of the light to distract the "bad guy" and gives the shooter a slit second longer to aquire the target. As far your own home, christ almighty, when in your own house, it is best to go on the offense when you feel or suspect your or your loved ones my be in danger. You meantioned "low light training" one of the things I recommend and we teach is knowing how many steps it take you to get to certain parts in your house, practice untill you know by heart. How many steps from your bed to the front door, to the bathroom, the coffe in the center of the living room. Things like that, also if you have a spouse, you both should have a plan, one if your alone and one if you are together when things go bump in the night. These are just my ".02 cents" feel free to bash me if you want.

[rhino]

How many criminals are paying to get trained by the professionals?

How many criminals have the years of experince the professionals have?

Lets face it were fighting a vastly untrained criminal organazations.



It depends on what kind of skills you're discussing. Criminals can and do learn quite a bit in prisons. It's like scumbag graduate school.

[Redmanfms]

Please enlighten us.....

Investigating the unknown situation without need, training (or a light) is what got this guys wife killed....unecessarily! The LEO's do respond even to "Wolf Cries". That's one of the things they get paid to do, and they don't get to vote. Just like getting Grandma's kitten out of a tree. They are our public servants, and God Bless 'em.

In my town you get a rather hefty nuisance call fee after a few false calls, something on the order of several hundred dollars. After a few fines, you get CHARGED WITH A CRIME.


What I think most folks with training and common sense would believe to be "weak" is looking for "Bumps in the Night" and killing an innocent good guy/ girl....or "Skunk" in your garbage.

Answer me this: Do you call the police every single time you hear an unidentified noise in or near your house?

[The_Biased_Observer]

Read the story line. The guy had no kids in the house. Only his wife. In your own house, hearing a bump in the night, and searching for it classifies as "Looking for trouble". This is not a "Liberal" stand, it's an intelligent one.....look what happened! This is what "Unnecessary Challenging" can lead to.

There was no need to leave the "Safe" confines of the BR, and I don't think any trained individual would consider this "cowering", but good tactical common sense. Something that more folks should spend time acquiring, IF they have the capacity to do so. If not, they shouldn't even consider having lethal force available to them in the form of a firearm until they receive such training. Again, look what happened. And again, it makes us all look like a bunch of "Rambo" wannabes.

In every lethal confrontation from what I have seen for "Justifiable Use of Lethal Force", there needs to be 3 things present to justify use of deadly force (unless you live in a "Castle Law" state) and they are "Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy". The last 2 clearly were not present as an attack was never launched by the intruder. IF this gets challenged in court by the family of the wife, I'm sure this will become very relevant, as it is to all of those "trained" individuals who have replied to this thread.

This guy was running on "Testosterone", and very little training and common sense.

Opinion piece------->This untrained* person says it is unwise to remain secluded in a bedroom while unknowns pillage your home. For all I know they have gas cans and plan on killing me (credible example, I have a threat or two known to me) by burning my house down. Also, personally I live a great distance from any government assistance and will not wait the 30 minutes for the single sheriffs deputy to find my home, which makes your suggestion somewhat laughable.

It is reasonable to assume that someone in your home in the middle of night is out to do you harm, the trouble has come for you. I don't care how many government classes you take, a reasonable standard is based upon the average podunk citizen and not on your uber-training example. Even the government is realizing this and a number of "castle" laws have been passed in recent years. Furthering the trend is the suggestion from government that dynamic events need intervention as quick as possible.


IMO, This is a pretty good example of what "overtraining" does to otherwise good tactical thinkers, and it is not the first time it's been seen on boards. . <----- Opinion piece.:)

*=not really;)

[Jay Cunningham]

Opinion piece------->This untrained* person says it is unwise to remain secluded in a bedroom while unknowns pillage your home. For all I know they have gas cans and plan on killing me (credible example, I have a threat or two known to me) by burning my house down.

Interesting - good thinking.

[Alpha Sierra]

I love it how some guys proclaim their way is not A way, but THE ONE AND ONLY WAY.

Those who go to reputable training usually hear "my way is A way, it is not THE way.

But according to Mr. Ackerman, his way is THE way.

The burden of the guru.......:rolleyes:

Oh Todd, just in case you are wondering I am one those fools who will go forth to confront those who violate my home. I have more there than mere posessions.

[toddackerman]

I sure wish everyone would read the story line before chiming in. There were no other people in the house. Let's stick to the details about the situation. That's what I'm basing my position on....nothing else. I do believe there are times that you might have to go find the BG. This IMO isn't one of them.

My position is the way I would handle the situation because everyone was in the Bed Room. No one else was anywhere else. What is so important if all are safe to go looking for a confrontation, versus calling and waiting it out? It's as simple as that.

For those who have agreed with me, you can see the logic of not exposing yourself unnecessarily to the dangers and treachery of clearing a house. For those of you that don't, I hope that the same thing that happened to the fellow that shot his wife doesn't happen to you.

With MY WAY...it won't.

BTW...I really appreciate the levels that some, including moderators have sunk to. Name calling, and insinuations are childish and I think you guys really need to get some anger management help. Really. Nothing like this should set off a stable individual like it has some of you. Your rage is deafening.

I'm done.

[Trim2L]

My first priority is to protect my family and my second is to protect my domain. I will not, nor do I have to, remain in hiding waiting for support to come and remove any threats.

[Ellery Holt]

+1

Back when I was dating, if I woke up the first thing I noticed was whether or not my GF was in the bed. How can you NOT first wonder where your significant other is if you wake up to "something out of place" going on?

I too question the validity of the word "negligent" in this case.

Not saying it was purposeful, but just that it looks...odd.

+2

Very strange "accident". I'm sure the police will give that possiblity a serious investigation; they're not preoccupied with I-Told-You-So declarations of self-righteousness.

[Ellery Holt]

In your own house, hearing a bump in the night, and searching for it classifies as "Looking for trouble".

If you mean the literal sense of "looking for what trouble may be inside the house," yes.

If you mean the semantically different sense of "going out of one's way in an effort to find trouble that could easily be avoided," you are dead wrong.

Edit: I just read the rest of the thread. It's pretty clear which you mean.

[9x19]

I sure wish everyone would read the story line before chiming in. There were no other people in the house. Let's stick to the details about the situation. That's what I'm basing my position on....nothing else. I do believe there are times that you might have to go find the BG. This IMO isn't one of them.

My position is the way I would handle the situation because everyone was in the Bed Room. No one else was anywhere else. What is so important if all are safe to go looking for a confrontation, versus calling and waiting it out? It's as simple as that.

For those who have agreed with me, you can see the logic of not exposing yourself unnecessarily to the dangers and treachery of clearing a house. For those of you that don't, I hope that the same thing that happened to the fellow that shot his wife doesn't happen to you.

With MY WAY...it won't.

BTW...I really appreciate the levels that some, including moderators have sunk to. Name calling, and insinuations are childish and I think you guys really need to get some anger management help. Really. Nothing like this should set off a stable individual like it has some of you. Your rage is deafening.

I'm done.

Yes, you are.