View Full Version : U.S. Optics - SN3 3.2-17x44 TPAL
http://www.primalrights.com/forum/review.php?a=4871
Finished up the review last night. Have a look if U.S. Optics rocks your boat. If not, have a look anyway. :)
Very nice review.
Thank you for posting it.
Good write up Hoss. What does Tpal stanf for. Have you ever looked through the straight 10x.
T-Pal stands for turret parallax.
I've spent a bit of time behind fixed 10x. Not enough to draw any conclusions... but I know their MST-100 is fantastically rugged.
Great review. Are there any issues with the eye box at the higher powers?
Not that I've experienced.
Cesiumsponge
04-14-12, 02:23
T-PAL is a nice option because it's a modular turret housing. You can generally get your windage, parallax, and reticle knobs on whatever side you want. If you wanted to be a cool dude and run a left-handed windage knob so you can keep your firing hand from breaking grip and do windage with your left hand, you can do it with the USO.
Not a direct comparison, but I have their 1.8-10x37mm T-PAL. It was mounted on a LaRue riser mount. The rifle fell over and landed on the objective. It broke the LaRue.
Can't wait to get mine, there sure are a lot of options....it kind of makes you 2nd guess if you will end up wanting a slightly different configuration. I went with the H37 reticle, so a lot of the options were less of an issue for me. Mine should be done soon, I will post some pic's and details when I get some time on the range with it this summer.
Dirk Williams
05-09-12, 10:14
Orkan, have you done a review of the S&B PMII scopes. I'd be interested in reading it if you already did one.
I like the scope you just did, but Im stuck on the S&B's and would like your oppinion on the PMII's p4f reticles if you wouldn't mind sharing your view on that one.
In the next 6 months I'll be purchasing 2 high end scopes for 2 projects. I have the 5x25x56 on 3 rifles now, and would like to stay there but Im open to another brand if it's as good or better. " Does that make sense.?
Thanks in advance.
DW
admittedly, i am a bit biased because USO sponsored me to shoot in Mammoth Sniper Challenge, and USO sponsors my PMG matches, and the guys at USO are really great to deal with, but i have been using both the SN3 3-17 TPAL with mil-scale MPR reticle and the S&B PMII with P4F for several years.
It's somewhat apples-oranges to compare them because of the 17x 44mm objective and the 25x 56mm objective, obviously, the S&B will let in a lot more light which will make most novices say the larger objective is better glass. However, USO makes a 5-25x 58mm mini-Hubble version, which is as amazing as it is heavy.
notwithstanding, imho "old" USO glass (incl mine) isn't quite as good as the S&B glass, but "new" USO glass is.
USO has much better reticle choices, and for quite a bit, you can even have them custom make one for you. S&B P4F leaves a lot to be desired. They recently started offering a few new reticles that are much improved, but still not quite as good.
The EREK knob and the S&B knob are both great, double turn. EREK however is lower profile, the clicks are wider (S&B clicks are very close together and the knob markings rarely line up perfectly with the detents throughout the entire range). i'm definitely not a fan of the MTC knobs.
the illumination... ugh. the S&B P4F reticle only illuminates the center crosshair which makes it useless in a practical setting because you can't hold elevation or wind in the dark, which is exactly where you'd want to do that since you can't see your knobs unless you put lume tape on them. USO has the whole reticle light up, which is awesome but the lowest setting is still a little bright which makes it difficult to see the target.
S&B only comes in red illumination. USO you can get red, green or blue illum. USO also has a very cool push-button control too. way better than any dial.
USO also can be purchased with a built-in bubble level inside the ocular housing that lets you level while watching the target. They have lots of other nifty features.
both suffer quite a bit from tunneling. (unlike the *cough* $1200 bushnell HDMR)
i am a bit disappointed in S&B's parallax knob, as mine broke and i had to send it back and it's still not fixed properly.
and the USO is customizable, meaning, you can put the windage or parallax or illum knobs in any position you want. you can have a 30mm, 34mm or 35mm tube. you can have the diopter range on the occular something other than the standard, etc.
all things considered, i'd lean to the USO 5-25x and i'd get it with a right-hand parallax knob, the mil-scale MPR reticle, internal bubble, blue illum.
I'll agree with most of what taliv has said, with the exception of a couple things.
The new illumination controls go quite dim. Dim enough to use with night vision actually. Not sure if his scope is a bit older or what.
Secondly, based on my experiences in just the last 6 months, it's not even fair to compare USO to S&B in terms of build quality and functionality. Anyone who stopped by S&B's booth at SHOT knows what I'm talking about. None of the 20+ scopes they had out there felt the same. All turrets were in various states of slop. As Taliv mentioned, the clicks are too close together for my liking. 2 S&B's have went down and failed to track around me in the last few months, with a third that I haven't verified myself. They tunnel. You can ask USO to make yours NOT tunnel if you like.
The finish on the S&B's is very weak compared to USO.
The power ring on an S&B is small and is a pain to use under pressure. USO's is big, and easy. I could use it hanging upside down.
USO has suffered from quality control issues in the past, but is steadily ramping things up to avoid it. Most importantly, if something screws up, they WILL stand behind it to your satisfaction. The features of their current line leaves a tiny bit to be desired, but not much. For instance, their 5-25 doesn't have a tool-less externally adjustable zero stop. But neither does S&B. Premier does... but I won't even get started on those piles of shit. I still own one, but happy with it or the company, I am not. Their windage turret options need some improvement. That said, a U.S. knob with windage stop handles things nicely. I'd like to see a milestone option added for it.
Most importantly, they are a fully American company with the old-school set of values that made this country great.
So if you are stuck on S&B... use a spatula and some anti-stick spray. :) Long story short - Buy USO. They have a great product with the worlds best service. Their new 1-8 is the best optic I looked at in its category at SHOT. It's absolutely out of this world.
The hensoldt 3-26 was absolutely amazing as well... but who knows when or if those jackasses will have it to market before the 3rd world war. That companies politics make me want to nuke every foreign optics manufacturers facility.
Dirk Williams
05-10-12, 11:15
Thank you both for the review, quit informative. This will sound shitty but I gotta ask. The application you both refer to is this comp or is this shooting as a real deal sniper, Mil or LEO. It's important to me to know.
Lastly, Im a simple man who only needs simple tools, not the ones with the most whistles and bells. In my 55 years Ive discovered that all the gizmo's in the world aren't going to make things easier for me especially shooting. Hell Im still stuck on Jeff Coopers stuff of " The front sight is everything".
I happen to like the simplicity of the P4F, I find for me that it keeps the process simple or uncluttered, and as simple as doing the weather thing, range it, dial it, and shoot it.
I will have a solid look at the USO as I;ll be in need of two great scopes before years end.
Again thank you both for your review and honesty.
DW
You are looking at this shit all wrong.
It's not a matter of bells and whistles... It's a matter of what allows you to put a round on target fastest, and easiest.
The p4f, like all line reticles, isn't nearly as fast as a genII style reticle. Even a reticle with lines, but only on one side for the .5 mil stadia like the GAP reticle is better. It draws the eye and makes choosing an adjustment or hold fast and accurate.
Things like zero stop, and windage stop make sure you don't get lost in your turret. Also, having a double turn turret for 20+mils of adjustment helps in this area. Instead of having to crank on the turret 4 times or something.
So it's not about bells and whistles. It's about having the features that make sure you can effectively and repeatably engage a target. The competitions that I've run were mostly setup to mimic the stress of a real life engagement... so I'm talking about both comp and real deal sniper. Were I to deploy as a sniper, there would be a USO on my rifle.
The only real way for you to understand what we are saying is to get one, and use it. If you go USO, get a GAP or genIIXR reticle. You'll quickly leave that p4f behind, is my guess.
i'm only a competition shooter. just a hobby for me. even though i hang out with a lot of "real deal" mil and leo snipers (mostly mil) and my PMG partners are real deal ranger snipers, and even though many of the stages we run are modeled after practical scenarios, I certainly wouldn't presume competition is the equivalent of real deal. (though I guess the mechanics are the same)
however, none of the LEO snipers i know have a nice scope. they're almost all <$1000 Leupold mk4 or vx3 type stuff. none of the good features. With all the dept budget cuts and layoffs and stuff, it's kind of hard to get them to spring for a $3600 piece of glass. And none of the LEOs around here make enough to afford it on their own. Sad, but that's life. Mil snipers seem to get their gear issued to them and most don't really have a lot of choice in the matter. So it's sort of an academic question I suppose.
orkan and i definitely have different preferences in reticles for different reasons, but I don't have time to get into it now
Dirk Williams
05-10-12, 15:23
Boys not knocking your credentials, Just feel it's important to know. I am greatful for your input and will be having a strong look at the USO along with a few others that come highly recommended.
For what it's worth my instructors were out of Alamda County Sheriff's office and I pay close attention to what "OBIE" says. Many years ago I went to sniper "I" with a police Remington 308 and a Gold Ring scope with tall turrets.
I was fortunate as the other shooter came from agency's with tall budgets and there were some bitchen rifles and glass there. The save in grace for me was I shot evey day at unknown distance at night and in shitty weather trying to learn the rifle and the scope.
It's true that the scope was a pile for THAT application and I was almost laughed out of the intro when the rest of the shooters were reviewing everybod elses equipment.
But these guys supported me with encouragement and equipment to include ammo after I discovered my cheap ass agency shorted me on ammo for the class.
Never the less I took what I had and did my best with it. The difference was they had cool shit and unlimited budgets. I had my home loaded dope on this rifle which frankly I was proud of.
I knew the rifle inside and out. I knew the scope inside and out, and I shot and shot and shot and shot, until I was proficient. [I] shot in extreme heat, I shot in extreme cold, I shot in snow storms, I shot in dust storms, I sot at sea level and at 9000 feet.
I hike miles and lay in hides for upto 10 hours waiting for my wife to call me and say 1 2 or 3. That determined which shot I took. There were times my nuts were frozen to the ground, I was so cold I didn't think I could hold out much longer for the call.
I wanted to learn and was determined to make the best of the equipment I had. That practice payed off. I wasn't the best shooter or the fastest runner I was 49 and out of shape, but when it was done I knew I had earned the others respect.
That first 60 hour class was like hooking a big old bass with a nice shinny spinner. Now Im stuck and there's no going back.
Since then Ive had the oppertunity to attend many other schools, over watch on many gardens and build really cool long guns with great glass.
Im retired now and don't shoot as much as I would like to, but I have contiued to build cool stuff from M4's to long range guns etc etc.
Back to my instructors. They said then and still tell me that in their oppinion their S&B's PMII's are top of the line, they are using mil dot reticals which is their choice.
I chose the Reticle I did cuz I like a really really fine cross hair. I find that the finer the cross hairs, the more likely I am to do the metal math in my head to square the cross hair up for accuracy.
I don't know if I should do this but OBIE or Jeff Reed and Mark Thompson both ACSO have been the two single most important factors in my shooting, I believe in both and there methods of training.
If you have ever met these guys I think you will understad what IM saying.
Thank you guys for also sharing your wisdom with me,Your never to old to learn
Have a great day.
DW
Boys not knocking your credentials, Just feel it's important to know.
no prob, no ego here and no offense taken.
fwiw, there have been a lot of changes over the past 10 years and many of the top end mfgs kind of leap-frog each other in quality and features. so imho, most of your questions are time sensitive. best today wasn't the best 2 yrs ago.
re: mil-dots... they kinda suck. the mil-hash reticles are so much easier to use. I can't imagine anyone advocating mil-dots these days. I'd really like to hear their rationale for that.
The P4F is a nice reticle, but things to take into account are what it looks like when you zoom down to 5x. it can be very hard to see when your reticle is too fine. what I like about the mil-scale MPR (more so than the mil GAP reticle) is that not only does it have finer hashes (.2 .5 .8 between every mil) so your holds are more accurate, when you zoom down, they sort of blur together and make the reticle look fat so it's easy to pick up at 3x (which is really important). and those hashes give you a place to mil targets that are .2, .3, .4, .5, .6, .7, .8 etc. in size. i think about the only size i don't know how to get is a .1 mil or a .9 mil target. AND you can mil the target with any part of the reticle. With my P4F, I only have .2 .4 .6 .8 hashes at the extreme left/right/top of the glass. The distortion at the edge of the glass on lesser scopes makes milling VERY challenging.
i don't know what the difference is between "bells and whistles" and "features". seem like the same thing to me. An awful lot of those features probably have negligible value for LEO snipers. Seriously, how many LEOs have had to make a shot that required them to spin the dial more than 1 revolution (or even a half rev)? How many ever had to mil range a target to make a shot? So I can understand wanting something simple. But now that you're retired and shooting long distance (for fun), i think you'll find those features a lot more useful
Yeah, I wasn't upset either. :)
My passion can often come across like a lead balloon though. haha!
Taliv touched on an important distinction. LEO snipers have an average engagement distance of like 60yds. Military guys in current theater is much much farther.
The hybrid (gen 2) reticles are my favorite. You still have the mil dot, or a variation of it, but you have a half-mil stadia as well that is easily identified as different from the full mil stadia.
On a genIIxr reticle, the full mil markings are in the shape of a traditional mil. Between them is a small subdued line to indicate half mil. In the case of a GAP reticle, the full mil is a line, and the half mil is half a line, only on one side of the main crosshair stadia. Both have even numbered indicators, and both are equally fast in my experience. The xmas tree on the genIIxr makes holding over while holding wind a bit more precise. As I dial my elevation and dial the nearest whole value for wind, I rarely take advantage of this.
However, on my USO that sits on my 22-250 coyote rifle... I use the xmas tree very effectively. I'd miss it, if it wasn't there.
Dirk Williams
05-10-12, 19:43
Yes alot has changed. I would agree with you regarding distance and an urban shooter. Not the case where I came from. My average range across canyon or to bottom of canyon was 660y to 1300y.
It got to the point with up canyon down canyon wind that I could not shoot the 308. It simply wasn't practical.
I went to the sheriff and recieved permission to build a 338 LM. I built my own and only carried it once before a medical retirement. Modoc County had a Barrett 50 but we also had a couple of knuckle head SGTS and an undersheriff who for whatever reason felt the Barrett was a liability.
I didn't want to deal with these three butt **** sgts and the under boss so I simply built my own with the sheriff's permission.
Sadly the 50 was purchased after a Lasson County deputy was ambushed way out back in the pucker brush. The shooter was an ex sniper and used the gut shot deputy to suck in the others for targets.
The old sheriff vowed to never allow that to happen again and purchased the 50 with the intent of blowing the ****ing house down before he would allow another good cop to be wasted like that.
This sheriff was old ****ing school , I both hated him, yet respected him for this simple reason. He did not care what the press or the courts would have said or done.
He was going in to get his man out if need be. Like I said how can you not respect the man for doing the right thing for his men.
The new sheriff is alotlike the old school sheriff in that respect. I would have loved to stayed and worked for him. You don't see that kind of leadership in law enforcement anymore.
Have a good one.
Dirk
You don't see that kind of leadership in law enforcement anymore. The sad truth right there. Political correctness has destroyed the country.
interesting story. not sure how long ago that happened but if it's documented somewhere public i'd love to read the details. i've never heard of anything like that outside of movies
It drives me crazy, the guys in uniform usually don't get the finest weapons and glass. Unless SF Operators. But cops and foot soldiers are often using the minimum. Nevertheless, they usually make it happen because that's what good men do!
Dirk Williams
05-11-12, 11:22
Im not good on looking stuff up. The truth is I don't want to be good on a computer as I think our computers are a systemic problem with america.
If you could look up Lasson County Calif. Or the local Susanville Ca newspaper and plug in deputy killed by sniper I think you will find the story.
This was many years ago maybe 10 or so. Just before I left 2 years ago Lassons County's Task Force was doing a sneek and peek on a garden houch, when the TF commander was shot by an AK from within the tent which hadn't been secured yet.
That MOAP was M4 bait and never saw blue skies ever again. MOAP is slang for dope growers, used by dope hunters.
Gotta go The squeeks are out by the 1000's right now and it's great sport to hunt them especially at 200y or greater. I hit about as many as I miss past 220y with a 17hmr.
By the end of the grow season I hardly miss at all as everything comes together. In fact I put that old sniper gold ring on my 17hmr last week, and things are looking up from the fixed 4x I was using.
Regarding the Lasson Co deputy I did not know him and I was not there, However I have read the reports and listened to those present many many times.
DW
http://www.lassennews.com/home/5514-state-supreme-court-upholds-death-penalty-for-deputy-sheriff-larry-griffiths-murderer
that article has a brief summary of the incident from the state supreme court opinion that upheld the death penalty for the murderer of deputy Larry Griffiths.
The full doc can be read at courtinfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/opinions.cgi
In the morning of March 2, 1995, Griffith, Mahan, Freitas and Aldridge responded to Ervine’s Ravendale residence following a report of a domestic violence incident.
According to the opinion, Ervine barricaded the downstairs windows and watched the officers arrive from an upstairs bedroom window. As the officers exited their vehicle, he fired his .30-.30 Winchester rifle and continued to do so until a bullet from one of the officers grazed his head.
The opinion said the deputies took cover when the defendant began shooting, but Freitas, Griffith and Mahan were able to return fire. Griffith was shot in the head during the incident which the document said lasted about 10 to 15 seconds
After a several hour standoff, the surviving deputies were evacuated under the cover of a dump truck and Ervine surrendered several hours later.
Dirk Williams
05-12-12, 09:50
That sounds right.
THanks for doing the research.
DW
both suffer quite a bit from tunneling. (unlike the *cough* $1200 bushnell HDMR)
What is tunneling? Thank you.
you know, i don't actually know what causes it optically, but the effect is, that when you're looking through the scope at mid-range and higher magnification, with your eye in the right spot, it looks like the picture is taking up the whole scope. when you turn the mag down near the lower limit, the picture keeps getting smaller but the field of view doesn't increase, and instead, you just get a black ring around the image that gets thicker.
so it's kinda like, if you took a collapsible drinking straw, and extended it while you were looking through it.
Nice write up and review. I was checking out the USO optic's you referenced. The GAP reticle seems cleaner, with less clutter - not as many holdover marks. While the MPR has multiple holdovers all the way around. At mid to low power, do the MPR holdovers blur? Both choices seem nice and a matter of preference probably dictates which one is "faster". My noob question is, which do you feel is faster? Thanks
:)
In my opinion the GAP would be faster.
Clutter is hard to pick through with the eyes quickly. If you have to stop to count lines or look closely at the reticle... then you aren't looking at your target.
Orkan. Is the TPAL worth the extra money over the ERGO model or is it a personal preference thing.
I think it's worth it.
Lay down behind your rifle in the prone position. Then try to reach up and turn the objective without totally dismounting the rifle. It can be done, but it is not easy or fast.
so... it depends entirely on your application.
AO is slightly superior from an optical perspective. (plus it's simpler mechanically, and hence, theoretically there's less to break). It's also somewhat more forgiving.
side-focus/parallax's sole advantage is that it's easy to manipulate while you're looking through the scope.
That's why benchrest scopes like NF's 12-42x50 is AO, while tactical type scopes are usually side focus like the TPAL.
imho, the most important reason to get a TPAL is so you can see midrange mirage.
---------------
so, same for reticle. if you're trying to hit a man-sized target at 400, sure, GAP is fine. if you're trying to hit a 6" plate at 700 yrds, you're going to want those extra hashes.
i don't understand the cluttered comment. it's not like the horus.
if you're trying to hit a 6" plate at 700 yrds, you're going to want those extra hashes. I've had no problem doing that with GAP or genIIxr reticles. Nor have I had an issue with 18" plates at 1500yds. Half mil increments are plenty. It really isn't that hard to break them down to .1 mil when you've got a .5 mil indicator.
You've got your way and you like it. I can accept that. However, it isn't like the guys with genII reticles are handicapped in any way.
fair enough. otoh, I am not in any way slowed down by 2 extra hashes.
otoh, I am not in any way slowed down by 2 extra hashes. LYING BASTARD!!!!!!
Oh wait. Just kidding! :haha:
I'm a fan of options. Options is one of USO's greatest strengths. There's a reticle for taliv, me, and everyone else. :dance3:
heh!
yes, I completely agree with that.
So here's a big stupid noob question-
I've been looking into USO scopes, and how to set them and get them adjusted and such. This whole EREK knob thing sounds like a royal PITA- seriously giving me a freaking headache just reading about it....:mad:
I was watching some videos for how to adjust the EREK knob. (here:http://vimeo.com/13563857, Here: http://weww.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2083508)
I'm assuming I HAVE to have an Optical Boresighter to set up an EREK knob? If so, what is a good one- I've heard most folk prefer the magnetic type.
heck no. bore sighters just get you on paper. just use your eyeball and look down the bore. you will have to shoot it to fine tune it.
Jellybean... if you can watch my review video... and come away not knowing how easy it is to use an EREK knob... then I don't think I'll be able to help you unless we meet in person sometime.
Well, in all fairness, I'm starting to believe my brain takes a crap whenever I try to figure out this stuff. :rolleyes:
Either that or all the other stuff I'm reading is just confusing this.
I have not watched the video yet- long story, but I have limited interenet usage, and it's 22 minutes long. Will try tommorrow (er... later today actually).
Orkan great review, and who do we have to bribe to make you an official sme on this site? Your expertise and insight on this subject is second to none imo
Thanks viper... glad to be of service.
... although I doubt I'll become an official anything here. It seems some people don't like direct/blunt information based on personal experiences. I have no tolerance for idiots spewing bullshit of which they have no clue... and as such tend to not suffer fools... which in turn rubs the mods the wrong way. I'm sure it will be only a matter of time before I tell someone off, and get scolded again or outright banned.
Friend of mine had a USO a few years ago and it was an utter piece of crap and I wrote them off. If true that their QA has tightened up I'll have to look at them again for a couple guns I'm putting together. Right now I'm looking heavily at S&B but if the USO can come through with the quality I want with the options I want then it might just be the way to go.
Pretty sure to be an SME you have to shoot people in the face for a living. If orkan qualifies then great, if not his opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it, not matter how blunt he puts it.
A good example is rob_s, he shoots a lot, has a lot of gear, but, he has no bearing on a lot of information presented here.
I picture it like the difference between being a private pilot and an A-10 driver who's squeezed off a couple from 10k feet. Both can fly and airplane, both are not nearly in the same class.
Johnny, I'd be saying this even if you were talking about someone else, so don't read into it.
I think you are a bit caught up in the movie generation. How does military experience or lack of it make me more of, or less of an authority in regard to what I talk about?
You don't see me talking about being a sniper, because I was never a sniper. I talk about precision marksmanship because that's what I am. Couple years ago I competed in a long range match against several SWAT snipers and an Army sniper. I beat them. Granted these were south dakota guys... but they held the title and I still beat them.
Just because someone isn't shooting people in the face... doesn't mean they are incapable. This military craze that civilians have these days is quite annoying. You want to really learn about advanced marksmanship and how to hit tiny targets way the pissing hell out there? You aren't going to learn it from a sniper. You're going to learn it from benchrest guys. Once you learn how to reload to that level, then a sniper will teach you how to do it in the field. Even so... hardcore competition guys train more frequently and often have bigger budgets to work with than most snipers!
So don't arbitrarily count the private sector out when it comes to propagation of accurate knowledge. The military doesn't have a ****n monopoly on being right. Anyone that's ever been in the service can tell you that its more often the other way around. :)
Ok, finally watched the video- let me see if I got this right now:
Upon receiving the scope (providing it hasn't been previously adjusted) I would dial the knob for how much negative elevation I would want. Then I would use the allen wrench to do the physical zeroing of the scope. Once it's shooting where I want, I remove the top cap so the knob can turn independantly, and set it to "zero", so it will technically act as a zero stop.
I'm assuming the numbers on the first cap are just for counting adjustments/reference when physically zeroing?
If that's right, I think it was just adjusting two seperate things that was confusing me- I'm not used to having any other adjustments on scopes or sights other than "turn in direction you want zero to move".
Johnny, I'd be saying this even if you were talking about someone else, so don't read into it.
I think you are a bit caught up in the movie generation. How does military experience or lack of it make me more of, or less of an authority in regard to what I talk about?
You don't see me talking about being a sniper, because I was never a sniper. I talk about precision marksmanship because that's what I am. Couple years ago I competed in a long range match against several SWAT snipers and an Army sniper. I beat them. Granted these were south dakota guys... but they held the title and I still beat them.
Just because someone isn't shooting people in the face... doesn't mean they are incapable. This military craze that civilians have these days is quite annoying. You want to really learn about advanced marksmanship and how to hit tiny targets way the pissing hell out there? You aren't going to learn it from a sniper. You're going to learn it from benchrest guys. Once you learn how to reload to that level, then a sniper will teach you how to do it in the field. Even so... hardcore competition guys train more frequently and often have bigger budgets to work with than most snipers!
So don't arbitrarily count the private sector out when it comes to propagation of accurate knowledge. The military doesn't have a ****n monopoly on being right. Anyone that's ever been in the service can tell you that its more often the other way around. :)
You misunderstand. I thought I made it clear that I was talking about what it takes to become an SME. I don't care how good you think you are, it doesn't matter re:becoming an SME.
Copy civilian infatuation with holding military TTP as the end all be all. We are on the same page.
After reading this review, I called USO about one of their optics. I am looking for a good 3 gun scope and want the scope to be fast up close and work like a precision scope at distance. I described what I wanted and the tech I was talking to, Raymond, said he knows exactly what I mean. He's so enthused, he wants to piece together the scope as discussed. This has me totally blown away. Do all scope companies do this? If the prototype works, I will be a USO customer for life!
Just thought I'd share this recent experience.
Do all scope companies do this? Almost zero other companies do that. Welcome to USO winning! ;)
Johnny, I don't care how good you think I am either. (or how bad) :) I don't even know what the **** an SME is, nor do I expect to ever be one. ... or maybe I am already?
Jellybean, you got it. You might be slow at it the first time. Seems everybody is. After you do it once, it's quite simple.
Johnny, I don't care how good you think I am either. (or how bad) :) I don't even know what the **** an SME is, nor do I expect to ever be one. ... or maybe I am already? .
Sorry, meant in general, not specifically you. There are a few people here on this site that seem to want everyone to think they are Subject Matter Experts regardless of their actual qualifications, and the qualifications to be labeled as such, here, have been laid out.
I appreciate you knowledge on the subject of precision marksmanship. I disagree with your dislike of Premier (as I have never had any problems with any I have used in the last couple years) and your espousal of USO as the best choice available (see previous post re:USO crappy QA in the past) but I think generally you have a solid knowledge of things in the precision marksmanship world and think you have valid opinions to contribute. As I said before, opinions are worth exactly what you pay for them, but many opinions, be they quantitative or not, are far more useful than few. This is especially true when dealing with high dollar value subjects such as precision shooting. I enjoy reading your posts, and SME or not, I do not discount them like I do some people here.
There are many reasons for my backing of USO that go well beyond their product.
Their product is great. The company is better than great.
You know what I'm tired of? Companies having a great product, and behaving like children because they know it. Premier is just such a company. Doesn't change the fact that several premier's have shit the bed while I was there to witness. In two cases, they were my scopes. In several others... they weren't. Premier makes a great product, and when it works, it has the most features out there. Premier as a company started sliding down the toilet when Dick Thomas died. As with many companies... when the founder of a successful company dies, the family members see $$$ signs and move to exploit it. Anyone that knows the story of chris thomas knows that is EXACTLY what happened. Big corporate greed that is now completely detached from their customer base. A canadian company handles all of their distribution. No, I don't like premier as a company one single bit. They do not behave honorably and do not deserve my business.
U.S. Optics on the other hand demonstrates honor and integrity at every turn. John W. III is carrying on the tradition of his father and taking that company to new heights.
I wish their 5-25 had more internal adjustment, and I wish none of their scopes tunneled. I also wish their windage turret was better. Beyond that... they lack nothing, and have things that none of their other competitors do.
People rip on USO because of QC issues, which they continue to get better at... but can you show me a scope manufacturer that doesn't ever have failures? No. So if they are all prone to breakage, then what becomes important?
This is coming from a guy that's had every high end scope fail in my presence with the exception of one: Nightforce. They are tough as hell and seem to work every time, yet they lack a bit on the features. They were also way behind on coming to the table with a FFP reticle.
I still have a premier 5-25. I had 2 of them, and one 3-15 at one point. It's a great ELR scope. With the new designs coming out from USO and hensoldt, there will be little point in owning it after the next couple years. If the turrets start to fall out, or if the parallax quits working again before that time... it will be gone sooner than I think.
Premier 5-25 is better than a USO in some ways.
USO 5-25 is better than a premier in a lot of ways.
It's not until you get to engaging multiple targets at a wide variety of distances on a regular basis that you realize it. At first glance, premier gets the nod, but in actual use over time the USO beats it. That's my experience.
Let's talk about failure for a bit. When premier's go down they GO DOWN. They cease to function. Parallax breakage is the number one issue. That has happened on 60-80% of the premier scopes I've been around. When that happens, the parallax no longer works. Second most common breakage is tracking. You turn the turret, but the reticle doesn't move. Or better yet is when the turrets decide to come loose. Then the reticle moves .3-.5 mils just by wiggling the turret. These render the scope useless.
With USO, the "failures" aren't really failures usually. Specs of crap show up on the reticle or you get some fog on a lens or something. They usually don't cease to function... but it's referred to as a failure anyway. Hell, a lot of their returned scopes have nothing wrong with them. It's user error. I've seen at least one instance of a guy sending a USO back twice, all the while bashing them, when it was him not knowing how to set the EREK knob.
I've used all of them, and find myself wanting to be behind a USO more than anything else. Maybe that preference will change some day. Maybe it won't.
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