View Full Version : Wrong neighborhood.
Beaten, robbed and stripped by a mob. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0c0_1333571524
Alternate angle: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=679_1332640868
I wonder how much press this will get in the media?
1. I hope the police have been sent this footage.
2. this is why you carry.
davidjinks
04-04-12, 18:10
**** them! I hope they all rot!
You won't hear anything about it because it's OK for blacks to beat whites, rob them, rape them and murder them because it's a form of reparation!
Moose-Knuckle
04-04-12, 18:15
I wonder how much press this will get in the media?
Probably about as much as:
Nancy Strait, 85, was sexually assaulted and battered to death by burglar
Her husband Bob, 90, suffered a broken jaw and broken ribs in attack
Police have arrested 20-year-old Tyrone Dale David Woodfork
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117695/Brutal-home-invasion-Oklahoma-couple-ends-65-year-romance-meeting-blind-date.html
Teens set kid on fire for being 'white boy'
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station
I could go on and on and on. . .
But instead I'll just keep buying ammo by the case. ;)
That really really pisses me off. I Heard on Quinn and Rose this morning a mole in hollywood said USA is airing 'To Kill a Mockingbird' this weekend. It was said Obama is going to make introduction to the film. Maybe suggesting to his peeps not to forget their roots.
Reagans Rascals
04-04-12, 18:32
To be completely honest... and I mean this is the least racial or derogatory way, as I myself have quite a diversity of friends and have quite the diverse lineup of women in the past...
however; I truly believe... each race.. is a specific species of human... having simply evolved apart due to geographic separation.. much like 2 of the same monkeys or iguanas or turtles separated by vast geographic barriers will eventually evolve past all similarity....
look at bears... Black, Brown, Grizzly, and Polar bears... they are all bears.. however they are discernible down to the cellular level... and I would almost wager that if one were to truly examine the DNA of each individual race... for long enough... distinguishing characteristics would emerge... just as specific disease tend to only target specific races.. such as Sickle Cell Anemia tends to only affect blacks
its all evolution based upon geographic isolation.... pretty much what Darwin tried to explain with his ventures to the Galapagos
think what you want... but I am really starting to see it in Humans... how can there only be 1 species of human... when there isn't 1 single species of any other mammal.... multiple whales, bears, monkeys... host of different species within the same genus, phylum, family and so on...
Be careful. Observations and personal attacks are two different things. Take the high road. It infuriates me, too, but be aware your comments reflect on the forum membership as a whole.
ETA: This was directed at an idiotic post that was removed.
<completely useless post>
Post reported. Don't post that crap here. It does not reflect well upon you, or the M4C membership.
Voodoo_Man
04-04-12, 21:40
He looked a little intoxicated, maybe high?
This type of situation could have been avoided, even once inside that crowd he could have gotten out with no issues.
Hopefully the guy gets justice of some type, no one should be subjected to this.
He looked a little intoxicated, maybe high?
This type of situation could have been avoided, even once inside that crowd he could have gotten out with no issues.
Hopefully the guy gets justice of some type, no one should be subjected to this.
i did some more clicking and found a B-More Sun article on the matter. It happened on St Patty's Day and the dude in question was from outtatown.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bal-video-of-man-beaten-stripped-prompting-anger-on-internet-20120404,0,6615221.story
Eurodriver
04-04-12, 23:26
"So what? White people lynched blacks for hundreds of years. Its just payback"
Can't tell you how many times I've heard that....FROM WHITE PEOPLE.
"So what? White people lynched blacks for hundreds of years. Its just payback"
Can't tell you how many times I've heard that....FROM WHITE PEOPLE.
Im Irish Catholic, I dont go crackin' skulls on WASPs for, you know..payback. I think Clint Smith was right, some people just need to be shot.
Voodoo_Man
04-04-12, 23:50
i did some more clicking and found a B-More Sun article on the matter. It happened on St Patty's Day and the dude in question was from outtatown.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bal-video-of-man-beaten-stripped-prompting-anger-on-internet-20120404,0,6615221.story
Out-of-towners usually end up with the rawest of deals.
Moose-Knuckle
04-05-12, 03:40
i did some more clicking and found a B-More Sun article on the matter. It happened on St Patty's Day and the dude in question was from outtatown.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bal-video-of-man-beaten-stripped-prompting-anger-on-internet-20120404,0,6615221.story
In accordance with my belief that any law abiding American should be able to walk down any street day or night in this country without being molested in any form regardless of race, sexual orientation, and or religion I fail to see why the national media continues to put at the for front of all that is news worthy anytime a victim of an alleged crime happens to be black and his attacker is white yet when the opposite transpires you will never see so much as blurp on the screen about it.
In this particular case it doesn't matter if the victim was intoxicated or found his way to "the wrong side of the tracks". . .his only crime was being white.
"So what? White people lynched blacks for hundreds of years. Its just payback"
Can't tell you how many times I've heard that....FROM WHITE PEOPLE.
White apologists, I have a Jewish friend who refers to these types of his own race as "gas chamber Jews".
Doc Safari
04-05-12, 08:53
Every time I read stories like the ones posted it steels my resolve that I do indeed have what it takes to fire on another human being.
In accordance with my belief that any law abiding American should be able to walk down any street day or night in this country without being molested in any form regardless of race, sexual orientation, and or religion I fail to see why the national media continues to put at the for front of all that is news worthy anytime a victim of an alleged crime happens to be black and his attacker is white yet when the opposite transpires you will never see so much as blurp on the screen about it.
In this particular case it doesn't matter if the victim was intoxicated or found his way to "the wrong side of the tracks". . .his only crime was being white.
White apologists, I have a Jewish friend who refers to these types of his own race as "gas chamber Jews".
As mentioned in the article, I am interested in knowing how he got back to his hotel room. Judging by the stuff that was "missing"...a Tag Heuer and keys to his Audi. He most likely wasn't staying at the Motel 6. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't remember what happened. That being said, I rarely if ever get upset over seeing "shenanigans" on the interwebz, but watching the liveleak vid was infuriating.
To be completely honest... and I mean this is the least racial or derogatory way, as I myself have quite a diversity of friends and have quite the diverse lineup of women in the past...
I get annoyed that people feel the need to preface whatever comments they're about to make that involve statistical or criminal profiling with a disclaimer like the above.
The truth of a statement shouldn't require a person to put a disclaimer about how they aren't racist.
Black, white, yellow, brown or even magenta. They are all just inner city trash preying on people. Too bad someone wasn't carrying.
This is just another example of why I won't travel anywhere that my gun is not welcome. My wife is from Chicago; we've visited once in 14yrs.
montanadave
04-05-12, 10:23
Black, white, yellow, brown or even magenta. They are all just inner city trash preying on people. Too bad someone wasn't carrying.
My thoughts precisely. There's a reason lady justice wears a blindfold. Packs of low-life scum preying on victims whose only mistake is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time deserve to have the full weight of the justice system drop right on top of them.
No excuses. No extenuating circumstances. No affirmative action, profiling, hate crime bullshit. They're just punks and thugs who deserve to be treated as such.
CarlosDJackal
04-05-12, 11:42
You know, the "empowerment" that the current POTUS has given these racist thugs is going to push this issue to a head thanks to his supporters and the likes of jesse jackson and al sharpton. I would not be surprised that the other racist groups (IE: kkk, aryan nation, neo-nazis, etc.) that have been very quiet the past few years are planning on something.
What sucks is I'm neither black or white. I guess there is a reason I carry a concealed handgun (either a Glock 19, 26 or 23) and drive around with a "trunk rifle" with 120-rounds of MK 318 Mod 0 preloaded on my chest rig.
I don't like this at all!!
Reagans Rascals
04-05-12, 11:52
I get annoyed that people feel the need to preface whatever comments they're about to make that involve statistical or criminal profiling with a disclaimer like the above.
The truth of a statement shouldn't require a person to put a disclaimer about how they aren't racist.
I get annoyed by the fact that I'll get flamed as a racist if I don't use that modifier.... you can't say anything without being targeted as a racist in today's time
when in reality... its my right as a citizen to be racist if I so choose
Voodoo_Man
04-05-12, 13:17
Just out of curiosity - how many here believe he was in a deadly force situation?
I get annoyed by the fact that I'll get flamed as a racist if I don't use that modifier.... you can't say anything without being targeted as a racist in today's time
when in reality... its my right as a citizen to be racist if I so choose
Thats part of my gripe really, I guess I didn't express it well enough.
Just out of curiosity - how many here believe he was in a deadly force situation?
Was he in fear of great bodily injury, harm or death? I believe many people would be in that situation and with those odds. They'd also have good reason since that pack of hyenas assaulted him, possibly causing brain trauma and permanent damage, along with robbing him.
QuietShootr
04-05-12, 13:40
I get annoyed by the fact that I'll get flamed as a racist if I don't use that modifier.... you can't say anything without being targeted as a racist in today's time
The proper answer is "who gives a ****?" Being called a racist has only as much power as you let it have.
GeorgiaBoy
04-05-12, 14:12
Being "racist" does not always need a negative connotation. It's foolish to believe there are not small differences among races in the world.
All different races have both different physical and psychological differences, though minute.
Just out of curiosity - how many here believe he was in a deadly force situation?
I believe he was...
BUT
He was intoxicated, therefore he cannot, by (Texas) law, carry a gun....(this was edited to say TX due to being recently educated that it isn't prohibited to carry while intoxicated, or at a bar, in numerous states like it IS in TX)
That is just one of the reasons I don't drink unless I'm in a controlled setting (ie. my home) or at a bar where I can't carry anyway...although I don't go to bars hardly at all, and when I do have a brew, its usually just one.
The proper answer is "who gives a ****?" Being called a racist has only as much power as you let it have.
Well, I don't give a ****. I ripped out my P.C. filter a long time ago. Someone here sent me to the principals office on account of my not giving a ****. I guess more people give a **** than you'd think? :)
He was intoxicated, therefore he cannot, by law, carry a gun.
An assumption bro. He appeared disoriented but the cause is unknown. Maybe they'd smacked him in the back of the head with something prior to starting the video.
More likely you're right but we should focus on hard facts. He was mobbed, assaulted, stripped and robbed by a bunch of lowlife scum.
An assumption bro. He appeared disoriented but the cause is unknown. Maybe they'd smacked him in the back of the head with something prior to starting the video.
More likely you're right but we should focus on hard facts. He was mobbed, assaulted, stripped and robbed by a bunch of lowlife scum.
Yep you're exactly right, I kind of ran with the "going theory". My mistake.
Yep you're exactly right, I kind of ran with the "going theory". My mistake.
My assumption is that you're right but I don't know for sure. He did seem a bit scared, confused, apprehensive and disoriented which makes the people assaulting him even worse in my book. Hopefully the police will use the video evidence and have the perps in jail for assault, robbery and a host of other charges.
Voodoo_Man
04-05-12, 15:18
My assumption is that you're right but I don't know for sure. He did seem a bit scared, confused, apprehensive and disoriented which makes the people assaulting him even worse in my book. Hopefully the police will use the video evidence and have the perps in jail for assault, robbery and a host of other charges.
I consider that the "deer in headlights" look.
I've seen this look many times, its a combination of situational awarenss overload, lack of training, and a serious case of cognitive dissonance.
I believe he was...
BUT
He was intoxicated, therefore he cannot, by law, carry a gun.
That is just one of the reasons I don't drink unless I'm in a controlled setting (ie. my home) or at a bar where I can't carry anyway...although I don't go to bars hardly at all, and when I do have a brew, its usually just one.
just a reminder to consult your own state laws. I know here in PA there is no prohibition on carrying while intoxicated , or carrying in a bar for that matter.
IANAL
I've seen this look many times, its a combination of situational awarenss overload, lack of training, and a serious case of cognitive dissonance.
Excellent description and what I was going for. Someone who's so far out of their element that they can't process what's actually going on.
just a reminder to consult your own state laws. I know here in PA there is no prohibition on carrying while intoxicated , or carrying in a bar for that matter.
IANAL
Hmm, very interesting. I know in TX, I can't on both accounts. I figured that would be the same everywhere, being that TX is SUPPOSED to be one of the most gun-friendly states...(its really not btw)
Hmm, very interesting. I know in TX, I can't on both accounts. I figured that would be the same everywhere, being that TX is SUPPOSED to be one of the most gun-friendly states...(its really not btw)
In NV you can carry in bars all day long and open carry if you like. You can also have a BAC of .10 while carrying under our current laws. DWI is a Fed thing and it's at .08 like everywhere else.
There's a lot like about Texas but the gun laws aren't nearly as friendly as everyone believes.
QuietShootr
04-05-12, 15:29
just a reminder to consult your own state laws. I know here in PA there is no prohibition on carrying while intoxicated , or carrying in a bar for that matter.
IANAL
Yup. We can open carry in a bar here. People should not assume their state laws are federal when they make a blanket statement.
I see you are obssessed with the word "****". So here's a ****ing clue. Knock off your shit or you will be on vacation and then you can rant all you want somewhere else.
Ist das Klar?
Well, I don't give a ****. I ripped out my P.C. filter a long time ago. Someone here sent me to the principals office on account of my not giving a ****. I guess more people give a **** than you'd think? :)
Yup. We can open carry in a bar here. People should not assume their state laws are federal when they make a blanket statement.
This person has been corrected. Thanks for the lesson.
I see you are obssessed with the word "****". So here's a ****ing clue. Knock off your shit or you will be on vacation and then you can rant all you want somewhere else.
Ist das Klar?
Ah ****. I got ****ing busted. :lol: Calm down there chief. It's olny internet chat amongst strangers.
Ah ****. I got ****ing busted. :lol: Calm down there chief. It's olny internet chat amongst strangers.
He means to limit your swearing to appropriate times versus just using the word for no reason at all. Apparently you're not very good at picking up on clues.
I guess you thought I was kidding. Come back after you grow up.
Ah ****. I got ****ing busted. :lol: Calm down there chief. It's olny internet chat amongst strangers.
I heard about this incident the other day. I believe it happened in Baltimore. The page where I saw this had comments to the point of "there are places in Baltimore where white people just don't go," etc etc.
I also understand that the victim was intoxicated.
While it is messed up and wrong that the victim was assaulted by a small mob (watched the video, it pissed me off), I think he could have been a little more pro-active about where he was going prior to impairing his judgement. Hindsight is 20/20.
I'm also curious about all those liberals that are so quick to defend these ghetto-types out of white guilt---do they really know what those places are like and how they would be received in said places?
Just out of curiosity - how many here believe he was in a deadly force situation?
I for one don't believe he was. He was punched in the face. He was robbed. He wasn't assaulted with a weapon (that we can see). He wasn't mobbed by multiple attackers at one time. No significant force was applied to overly vulnerable parts of the body.
If you were a witness to this particular crime while carrying, you'd be better of acting as a good witness than stepping in and possibly escalating things to a deadly force scenario. Had the attackers gone beyond the robbery, sucker punch and depantsing of the vic, then a stronger response might have been warranted. However, you'd still be placing your life in jeopardy by intervening.
Sad state of affairs we live in huh? :(
Moose-Knuckle
04-12-12, 16:47
I for one don't believe he was. He was punched in the face. He was robbed. He wasn't assaulted with a weapon (that we can see). He wasn't mobbed by multiple attackers at one time. No significant force was applied to overly vulnerable parts of the body.
Blows about the head and neck have been and should be considered deadly force. There have been documented cases where the vic died from brain trauma after a few as one blow to the noggin. An indiviuals hands are weapons.
Blows about the head and neck have been and should be considered deadly force. There have been documented cases where the vic died from brain trauma after a few as one blow to the noggin. An indiviuals hands are weapons.
Understood. I saw a punch to the face, but no blows directed at the head/skull. You're going to have a tough time selling a punch to the face as a lethal threat.
I may be wrong about this, but disparity of force has been used in the past by persons CCW'ing and subsequently using deadly force. Also, many states say that you may use deadly force to prevent serious bodily injury or grievous harm.
One could possibly artiuclate that they perceived such a scenario and acted.
I for one don't believe he was. He was punched in the face. He was robbed. He wasn't assaulted with a weapon (that we can see). He wasn't mobbed by multiple attackers at one time. No significant force was applied to overly vulnerable parts of the body.
If you were a witness to this particular crime while carrying, you'd be better of acting as a good witness than stepping in and possibly escalating things to a deadly force scenario. Had the attackers gone beyond the robbery, sucker punch and depantsing of the vic, then a stronger response might have been warranted. However, you'd still be placing your life in jeopardy by intervening.
Sad state of affairs we live in huh? :(
Understood. I saw a punch to the face, but no blows directed at the head/skull. You're going to have a tough time selling a punch to the face as a lethal threat.
He was punched in the face and fell back, possibly hitting his head against the sidewalk. That's a valid threat. Regardless, they laid their hands on him, which is also a threat. Laws about the use of deadly force against a threat differ significantly from state to state. In one state it may be justified to use deadly force in this situation, whereas in another it would not. It goes without saying, or typing, that you need to know the laws in your state and in any state you visit while carrying.
Understood. I saw a punch to the face, but no blows directed at the head/skull. You're going to have a tough time selling a punch to the face as a lethal threat.
I/we get your point, but you are simplifying. It was a punch delivered by an individual who just tried to rob him and who was accompanied by several other individuals who were hovering around the victim menacingly. Then as stated the punch resulted in him falling back and hitting his head, however hard is irrelevant.
What happened is exactly what we all figured would happen while watching the beginning of the video and in fact it wasn't as bad as I thought it would get. In other words he was in tremendous danger and could easily have been harmed far worse.
I'm merely pointing out that it's a tough sell. Sometimes it's difficult to convince people that shooting someone armed with a knife in close quarters is justified.
For every instance where there's a single punch that kills someone, there are thousands of times it doesn't. Just like less lethal options like pepper spray and tasers. Sometimes they kill, but normally they don't.
Understood. I saw a punch to the face, but no blows directed at the head/skull. You're going to have a tough time selling a punch to the face as a lethal threat.
We had a guy get punched one time in the face last year in a casino, he fell down and died. Story here (http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-20077324.html). Obviously it doesn't happen all the time, I'm also not a kid anymore, and I'm not trading blows with someone to see who can go the distance.
Voodoo_Man
04-13-12, 10:04
I'm merely pointing out that it's a tough sell. Sometimes it's difficult to convince people that shooting someone armed with a knife in close quarters is justified.
For every instance where there's a single punch that kills someone, there are thousands of times it doesn't. Just like less lethal options like pepper spray and tasers. Sometimes they kill, but normally they don't.
You have a good point, except it applies to the court of "public opinion" and not a court of law.
In a court of law shooting and killing someone who kicking or punching a person who is down, unconscious or can not otherwise defend themselves is perfectly acceptable.
Eurodriver
04-13-12, 10:09
Would anyone here, being surrounded by 5-10 people who are physically assaulting you, not use lethal force to defend yourself?
Voodoo_Man
04-13-12, 10:29
Would anyone here, being surrounded by 5-10 people who are physically assaulting you, not use lethal force to defend yourself?
I can only speak from personal experience and having been inside two very large "flash mobs" - by choice, not by circumstance, I would have dusted anyone who touched me as I was the only white person in that area at that time.
edit; that sounded a little racist - it was not meant to be, just pointing out facts.
CarlosDJackal
04-13-12, 11:12
I for one don't believe he was. He was punched in the face. He was robbed. He wasn't assaulted with a weapon (that we can see). He wasn't mobbed by multiple attackers at one time. No significant force was applied to overly vulnerable parts of the body...
WARNING: I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV.
What a bunch of bullshit. Three words come to mind: DISPARITY OF FORCE.
DISPARITY is defined as:
disparity (dɪˈspærɪtɪ) — n , pl -ties
1. inequality or difference, as in age, rank, wages, etc.
2. dissimilarity
In this situation that definition is met multiple times over.
A person can escalate the force he or she has to use in order to prevent DEATH, INJURY OR GRIEVOUS BODILY HARM. Once the victim was knocked to the ground and in such a mental state that he could no longer effectively defend himself - he was well within his rights to use deadly force if he was able.
Once you are in that state there is nothing that would prevent any of these pieces-of-whale-shit to choke, stab, or beat you until you take your last breath. That is DISPARITY.
The second point of fact is that their numbers. Unless you have the skills of Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris that will allow you to effectively defend yourself from multiple attackers, the fact that there are more of them also puts that DISPARITY against you. Once a victim is in immediate fear for his life or grievous bodily harm; an escalation of force up to and including lethal force is allowed.
If you're unwilling to use whatever it takes to prevent a mob beat your life force out of you - then that's your prerogative. If God forbid this was to happen, do the rest of the world a favor and don't yell for help. Instead scream out something like, "these poor misguided youth are not trying to kill me so nobody try to help me..."
That way those of us who have the inkling to jump in and save your sorry ass won't have to do so. :rolleyes:
CarlosDJackal
04-13-12, 11:16
He was punched in the face and fell back, possibly hitting his head against the sidewalk. That's a valid threat. Regardless, they laid their hands on him, which is also a threat. Laws about the use of deadly force against a threat differ significantly from state to state. In one state it may be justified to use deadly force in this situation, whereas in another it would not. It goes without saying, or typing, that you need to know the laws in your state and in any state you visit while carrying.
I'll have to disagree with you here. COMMON LAW states that it is perfectly acceptable to use lethal force to prevent your own death or grievous injury. Personally, I could care less what the written law says. I would rather go to trial where I can present an Affirmative Defense that be buried or end up in a coma.
Reagans Rascals
04-13-12, 11:26
I for one don't believe he was. He was punched in the face. He was robbed. He wasn't assaulted with a weapon (that we can see). He wasn't mobbed by multiple attackers at one time. No significant force was applied to overly vulnerable parts of the body.
If you were a witness to this particular crime while carrying, you'd be better of acting as a good witness than stepping in and possibly escalating things to a deadly force scenario. Had the attackers gone beyond the robbery, sucker punch and depantsing of the vic, then a stronger response might have been warranted. However, you'd still be placing your life in jeopardy by intervening.
Sad state of affairs we live in huh? :(
bullllllllllllllshiiiit.... if there is more than 1 individual involved in assaulting and robbing you... ****'em all... that's judicious use of deadly force... you have no way to defend yourself or to flee the area due to being vastly outnumbered...
As I myself have underwent brain surgery in the past.... I will kill any person that hits me or attempts to hit me in my head... because that is a deadly threat to me personally.... I would have planted every single one of them 6 ft under if I was carrying and life chose to shit on me with that situation
not to mention.. being robbed in general is legal justification for use of deadly force
bad things happen and its up to you yourself to be vigilant and aware of whats going on around you.... "always leave yourself an out"....he basically ****'ed himself because he may have been intoxicated and thus had no sense of awareness for his surroundings.... it's still bullshit that it happened and it is indeed their fault for assaulting him... but half the battle is prevention...
Eurodriver
04-13-12, 11:41
And what happens when the press turns it into "Racist, crazed white man goes on a shooting spree and shoots six black gentlemen on their way home from church and donating to charity?
Or
"Racist white man shoots two robbers but hits 4 bystanders accidentally."
Voodoo_Man
04-13-12, 11:45
And what happens when the press turns it into "Racist, crazed white man goes on a shooting spree and shoots six black gentlemen on their way home from church and donating to charity?
Or
"Racist white man shoots two robbers but hits 4 bystanders accidentally."
The media will make it whatever they want whenever they want.
Are you going to stop and think about what the media is going to do while you are getting your head kicked in?
People carry a gun for a reason, that is defense or offense. There are some circumstances that allow for an "offensive" action, mob-style scenes (like the video in OP depicts) is one of them. Now you should not shoot every single person, but target just those who are attacking you and putting you into a situation where you would have to employ force.
While this may sound stupid and smells of fear, your very first instinct should be to run away from the mob. If you run, they chase and then continue to assault you then you need to target those who are the biggest threat to you at that moment, meaning the guy who is trying to hit you or has hit you, especially if you are on the ground.
Reagans Rascals
04-13-12, 12:12
a firearm is not a malicious implement... it is simply a force multiplier... when you are outnumbered 10 to 1.... and you pull out a handgun with 10 rounds... you have just turned the odds in your favor.... essentially making it 11 on 10... what would seem like a fair fight given the circumstances...
when you are on the ground and someone is assaulting you with a blunt instrument... the odds are not in your favor.. thus mathematically you are outnumbered at least 3 to 1... 1 because you are on the ground, another because he has a blunt instrument, and yet another because he has caught you off guard with malicious intent and has put you in a defensive position
yet... if you were in that situation on the ground... and were to pull out a firearm... you have then essentially "called up your friends" and now basically have a force equal to or greater than those who are threatening you...
just think of it in terms of people... each round in the mag is another person who's got your back... if they have 10 physical people on hand... and you happen to have a 15 round mag... the fight is in your favor... game on
if we could roll around in a group with 15-20 hard-ass dudes all the time there'd be no reason to carry... but when you're alone carrying concealed is like carrying around 15-20 BAMF's in your pocket or on your hip.... that got your back no matter what..
And what happens when the press turns it into "Racist, crazed white man goes on a shooting spree and shoots six black gentlemen on their way home from church and donating to charity?
Or
"Racist white man shoots two robbers but hits 4 bystanders accidentally."
Is this actually meant to be a serious post? Would any of these thoughts go through your mind if you were outnumbered and your life was in overt danger? I suspect that usually a quick, sensible assessment of the situation would do for most.
Reagans Rascals
04-13-12, 13:15
And what happens when the press turns it into "Racist, crazed white man goes on a shooting spree and shoots six black gentlemen on their way home from church and donating to charity?
Or
"Racist white man shoots two robbers but hits 4 bystanders accidentally."
TANGO FOXTROT BRAVO
too ****in bad
Moose-Knuckle
04-13-12, 14:57
And what happens when the press turns it into "Racist, crazed white man goes on a shooting spree and shoots six black gentlemen on their way home from church and donating to charity?
Or
"Racist white man shoots two robbers but hits 4 bystanders accidentally."
I go home safely to my family and then consult with my attorneys. ;)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/id_rather_be_judged_by_12_than_carried_by_6_tshirt-p235201567591764987z85i2_210.jpg
Cincinnatus
05-10-12, 09:55
All the perps seem to be getting off with less than a slap on the wrist now. Any bets on how this would be different if they had been white and their victim black?
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-05-09/news/bal-baltimore-videotaped-beating-case-cuts-charges-20120509_1_robbery-charges-assault-baltimore-prosecutors
CarlosDJackal
05-10-12, 11:11
All the perps seem to be getting off with less than a slap on the wrist now. Any bets on how this would be different if they had been white and their victim black?
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-05-09/news/bal-baltimore-videotaped-beating-case-cuts-charges-20120509_1_robbery-charges-assault-baltimore-prosecutors
I hope the victim sues all involved to include the City of Baltimore and the State of MD (both Socialist entities who only cater to a particular minority group - I know, I used to live there).
Several months ago I posted about a car and group of youngsters in charlotte that I noticed were following too close. I stood my ground and let them know that I knew they were there (almost crapped my pants) and would not be a victim.
From what I saw in the video he did not seem like he was posturing defensively and these types of people look for sheepeople. He did not seem aware of how great the threat was until they were on top of him.
While in public I never get intoxicated b/c I cannot control the situation, reaction time and decision making is slowed, and some criminal elements specifically target someone who “appears” very intoxicated. I have no issue with people drinking in public but I feel like it has become too much of a threat.
I can understand why nobody stepped in. In NC I believe that you can only use deadly force to defend yourself or direct family member from serious bodily harm or possible death. I don’t think you can help a random stranger. Being such a litigious society has truly set us back many years.
Eurodriver
05-10-12, 13:44
Is this actually meant to be a serious post? Would any of these thoughts go through your mind if you were outnumbered and your life was in overt danger? I suspect that usually a quick, sensible assessment of the situation would do for most.
Absolutely.
Its only been a few weeks since I was body slammed by the police for saving a white man from being robbed by numerous black teens.
I would not have shot any of them if they continued to assault him, true story. No way I'm shooting unarmed black teens this day and age, I'd let them kick my head in before going to jail for Murder 2. I thank God every day those kids scattered when I pulled my weapon, just one idiot trying to act tough would have changed the entire situation.
Unless of course, you want to pay for my attorney fees and give me my own private country that I can flee to after being found not guilty and having the NBPs put a bounty on my head.
QuietShootr
05-10-12, 13:59
Absolutely.
Its only been a few weeks since I was body slammed by the police for saving a white man from being robbed by numerous black teens.
I would not have shot any of them if they continued to assault him, true story. No way I'm shooting unarmed black teens this day and age, I'd let them kick my head in before going to jail for Murder 2. I thank God every day those kids scattered when I pulled my weapon, just one idiot trying to act tough would have changed the entire situation.
Unless of course, you want to pay for my attorney fees and give me my own private country that I can flee to after being found not guilty and having the NBPs put a bounty on my head.
That'll teach you, won't it? And you started out wrong because after you (mistakenly) decided to get involved, you drew without an intent to shoot.
People who have never been there think I'm a ****ing dick for my "**** you, Jack, I'm not getting involved" stance. What say you now?
(ETA: not being antagonistic...just calling it like I see it)
While I too believe that you really shouldn't draw at all unless you are 100% ready to pull the trigger (and no I'm not second-guessing what you did Euro...just a general observation of MY beliefs), I'd like to know what you guys see as the "point of no return" where you would draw AND shoot (or use a blade)? Only if he's a white guy? Only if he has a gun or knife already in deployment? What if you were this guy in the vid, or the guy that Euro saved, surrounded and getting beaten by a mob of "unarmed teens"?
I agree that our litigous system is F'd, and I see you guys' points, but what is that "line" for you guys? (And this is a serious question, not being antagonistic either)
ETA: Wanted to clarify that my question was based on many people here and in other threads saying that they would second guess their use of lethal force due to the litigous society that we live in. I fully understand that if you are in fear of grave bodily injury, then you really are legally justified, but in light of recent events, it seems that some people are second guessing even that....maybe I'm just reading it wrong.
...you drew without an intent to shoot.
I've been down this road here regarding my past related experience, so I won't bother to get into detail regarding why I support either displaying a firearm or warning shots if needed in a borderline scenario. All I will say is that an armed, engaged bad guy(s) won't likely disengage as a result of you telling them you have a firearm, however I can assure you they are very likely to do so if they have that fact clearly verified.
Particularly in a hostile, life endangering civilian circumstance, it can be very effective and also tremendously reduces legal liability.
QuietShootr
05-10-12, 16:41
I've been down this road here regarding my past related experience, so I won't bother to get into detail regarding why I support either displaying a firearm or warning shots if needed in a borderline scenario. All I will say is that an armed, engaged bad guy(s) won't likely disengage as a result of you telling them you have a firearm, however I can assure you they are very likely to do so if they have that fact clearly verified.
Particularly in a hostile, life endangering civilian circumstance, it can be very effective and also tremendously reduces legal liability.
You missed the point. I'm not saying it's always improper to display a weapon - I'm saying it's always improper to display a weapon if you truly aren't prepared to shoot if your bluff is called. I, too, have scared a person or two off with a gun, but I had absolute intent to shoot them in the face if they did anything BUT run.
Pulling a gun KNOWING you aren't going to use it, like Euro did, is a very risky bet. Lots of people aren't scared of a guy with a gun, because they know 2/3 of the William Whitebreads walking around with guns really aren't going to use them. - and guess what? they were RIGHT.
If one of them had made for Euro and tried to disarm him, he just told us that he would not shoot. So what would he have done? Holster the gun and start going Marquis of Queensbury with a bunch of thugs?
I'll tell you what he would have done: He would have vapor locked at the Decide step of the loop and would be on the ground getting his teeth kicked in lickety-split, and would have been lucky to not be killed with his own weapon.
If you want to live, you don't intervene in shit like this unless you're prepared to go all the way. Euro was lucky.
If your gun clears leather it had better be because there is an imminent threat to your life and you are about to shoot somebody in self defense. If the situation de-escalates between the time you clear leather and the time you pull the trigger, then great, don't shoot.
Pulling a gun when there isn't a 100% pressing need to use it unnecessarily escalates the situation, when de-escalation should be your goal. Pulling the trigger is what happens when you have no other option to de-escalate.
It's as simple as this. If you have a reasonable and articulable fear of death or great bodily harm, you have the necessary legal basis for producing a weapon with the intent to use deadly force. Absent that, you should never introduce a weapon to an already unstable situation. What's the best of all options in that event? Break contact! Can't do that? You failed OODA 101 and allowed yourself to get backed into a corner.
If you have reasonable and articulable fear, and you produce a weapon, you'd damn well better be prepared to use it. If producing the weapon diffuses the situation, you'd be a fool to shoot. If not, you'd better go to work with speed and violence of action. Worry about the aftermath...afterwards!
If you can't do this, you have no business carrying a gun in this day and age. Simple as that. :(
QuietShootr
05-10-12, 16:56
While I too believe that you really shouldn't draw at all unless you are 100% ready to pull the trigger (and no I'm not second-guessing what you did Euro...just a general observation of MY beliefs), I'd like to know what you guys see as the "point of no return" where you would draw AND shoot (or use a blade)?
Never, for a third party I don't know. (I might make an exception for a blue-eyed brunette with a huge rack, but that would be it.)
Only if he's a white guy? Only if he has a gun or knife already in deployment?
I say again, never, unless he's with me. I'm calling the police and being a good witness, and if the savages are dancing around in his intestines when the cops finally show up, well....too bad for him, bro.
What if you were this guy in the vid, or the guy that Euro saved, surrounded and getting beaten by a mob of "unarmed teens"?
If I were the guy in the video I would have taken off like a bat out of hell the first chance I got, while presenting my weapon, (i.e. at the beginning of the video when he was just standing there) and anyone obstructing my path gets shot. If y'all want to chase me, I'm not in bad shape, and I've got 52 rounds on me. Better bring your friends!
I agree that our litigous system is F'd, and I see you guys' points, but what is that "line" for you guys? (And this is a serious question, not being antagonistic either)
The line is I will never get involved for a third party. I'm sorry. I don't care if it's Mother Teresa getting a train pulled on her on the hood of the Popemobile. **** it, I have enough problems in my life without taking on a stranger's too. Nor would I expect anyone else to intervene on my behalf if I were getting the treatment.
Turn on me or mine, and it's on - but Captain America can't afford to save the world any more - he can't afford the insurance coverage.
Pulling a gun when there isn't a 100% pressing need to use it unnecessarily escalates the situation, when de-escalation should be your goal.
You say 100%, but what is that beyond being fired upon? Someone swinging at you, someone who seems really mad as they approach? What exactly is your 100% threshold?
Does that include the individual or group walking toward you brandishing weapons and acting as though they are ready to use them? Maybe if you run you can get away, but then again maybe not. And then once again, maybe you shouldn't have to run under the circumstance...
You say 100%, but what is that beyond being fired upon? Someone swinging at you, someone who seems really mad as they approach? What exactly is your 100% threshold?
Does that include the individual or group walking toward you brandishing weapons and acting as though they are ready to use them? Maybe if you run you can get away, but then again maybe not. And then once again, maybe you shouldn't have to run under the circumstance...
The trigger point is the point at which you identify and can articulate a reasonable certainty that you are in life threatening danger.
Unless you're advocating some 5,000 page list containing all possible scenarios and full of IF-THEN statements (which you would have to memorize or somehow reference in the heat of the moment...you can see how ridiculous this is), you'll have to just accept this necessarily ambiguous yet reasonable language and use common sense.
There is no guarantee that you'll make the right decision in the heat of the moment, and even if you do, the police / DA / jury might not see it the same way. That's the burden that comes with carrying a gun, which we try to mitigate through training and knowledge. It's just the way it is, all the more reason to make the introduction of a firearm the absolute last resort. If you're a reasonable person with good situational-awareness, chances are you'll be just fine. But in a world inundated by lawyers and the press, you might just end up a villain and in jail. So again, don't pull a gun unless you feel the need to shoot. You shouldn't feel the need to shoot unless you feel and can articulate a reasonably certain threat against your life.
I'm frankly not seeing a strong grasp on the concept of EOF and DEOF in this thread as a whole. DEOF needs more training / thought time.
QuietShootr
05-10-12, 18:44
The trigger point is the point at which you identify and can articulate a reasonable certainty that you are in life threatening danger.
Unless you're advocating some 5,000 page list containing all possible scenarios and full of IF-THEN statements (which you would have to memorize or somehow reference in the heat of the moment...you can see how ridiculous this is), you'll have to just accept this necessarily ambiguous yet reasonable language and use common sense.
There is no guarantee that you'll make the right decision in the heat of the moment, and even if you do, the police / DA / jury might not see it the same way. That's the burden that comes with carrying a gun, which we try to mitigate through training and knowledge. It's just the way it is, all the more reason to make the introduction of a firearm the absolute last resort. If you're a reasonable person with good situational-awareness, chances are you'll be just fine. But in a world inundated by lawyers and the press, you might just end up a villain and in jail. So again, don't pull a gun unless you feel the need to shoot. You shouldn't feel the need to shoot unless you feel and can articulate a reasonably certain threat against your life.
I'm frankly not seeing a strong grasp on the concept of EOF and DEOF in this thread as a whole. DEOF needs more training / thought time.
This.
I'm frankly not seeing a strong grasp on the concept of EOF and DEOF in this thread as a whole. DEOF needs more training / thought time.
That's unfortunate, however the fact remains that I and many others have successfully thwarted further violence or even death by pulling a firearm as a deterrent. I was prepared to shoot to kill if necessary, but wisely chose not to and discharged into the air. This was especially critical as a NJ resident who was accountable to the law afterward.
But think what you will via idealogical scenarios.
QuietShootr
05-10-12, 19:33
That's unfortunate, however the fact remains that I and many others have successfully thwarted further violence or even death by pulling a firearm as a deterrent. I was prepared to shoot to kill if necessary, but wisely chose not to and discharged into the air. This was especially critical as a NJ resident who was accountable to the law afterward.
But think what you will via idealogical scenarios.
You fired a shot into the air? Who were you trying to kill?
You fired a shot into the air? Who were you trying to kill?
You tout your own intelligence in another thread, yet this was your simplistic comment? Not going down this road again, see if you can find a first grader to debate with.
QuietShootr
05-10-12, 20:10
You tout your own intelligence in another thread, yet this was your simplistic comment? Not going down this road again, see if you can find a first grader to debate with.
No worries. I'm not the simple sonofabitch who fired a round into the air with absolutely no idea where it would land. I don't think I can get my head far enough up my ass to see things from your point of view anyway.
Keep on keeping on, Jersey.
The line is I will never get involved for a third party. I'm sorry. I don't care if it's Mother Teresa getting a train pulled on her on the hood of the Popemobile. **** it, I have enough problems in my life without taking on a stranger's too. Nor would I expect anyone else to intervene on my behalf if I were getting the treatment.
Turn on me or mine, and it's on - but Captain America can't afford to save the world any more - he can't afford the insurance coverage.
Well QuietShootr I hope that when you are getting trained on the hood of the PopeMobile that I am there... because I'm a Christian and I will help you even if you do not expect me to...:)
I do have to say that I have gone to the aid of people under attack MANY times and I'd say about 50% of the time I wish I hadn't, but as a Christian and my culture demands it.
If it appears to be a domestic dispute I do have a rule that I ALWAYS CALL THE POLICE FIRST before intervening. Golly Gee do I have some stories on those:eek:
LowSpeed_HighDrag
05-10-12, 23:51
Holy shit. I was finally able to get the video to load, poor guy. Literally savaged by a pack of wild animals, there is no other way to put that. If you carry concealed, you can not allow yourself to be disadvantaged like that, if they get ahold of your weapon it may be lights out.
ETA: I sure hope I am in the majority when I say this: I wouldve helped that man, even if I was hurt in the process. I was not brought up to stand idly by while others are victimized.
Strong is the FUDD in this thread, yes! :(
This thread is dangerously close to being shut down and some people getting infractions. There is absolutely no need for PERSONAL attacks.
Chastising someone for firing into the air, is not a personal attack. It's a prudent and sound advice. Everyone needs to stop the penis fighting and come back to earth.
As for defending a 3rd party. That is up to the individual to decide. I can tell you now that I for one am not going to risk my safety or my familys' unless I know I am on solid ground- legally and tactically.
CarlosDJackal
05-11-12, 08:36
The line is I will never get involved for a third party. I'm sorry. I don't care if it's Mother Teresa getting a train pulled on her on the hood of the Popemobile. **** it, I have enough problems in my life without taking on a stranger's too...
That is your prerogative. I do hope that none of your loved ones ever find themselves in a situation in which they got assaulted or raped just because a "third party" has taken the same stance that you have. Never forget that Karma can be a real bitch sometimes.
The good news is there are still those of us who would jump in and help others out of the kindness of our hearts.
This is not specifically about Euro's story, but on the topic of "pulling a gun" or firing a warning shot...
"Pulling a gun" as it's commonly called and not needing to use it can and often will be looked at as aggravated assault. If you don't need to shoot then you don't need to expose your firearm. If you don't need to shoot then you are not in life threatening danger and it's highly likely that YOU will be the one getting prosecuted, even if you are the victim (in the real world, not legal sense). Screwed up? Yep. But don't think for one second that the situation can't or won't be twisted that way.
On warning shots...
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/florida-stand-ground-sentencing/index.html
Eurodriver
05-13-12, 08:14
You missed the point. I'm not saying it's always improper to display a weapon - I'm saying it's always improper to display a weapon if you truly aren't prepared to shoot if your bluff is called. I, too, have scared a person or two off with a gun, but I had absolute intent to shoot them in the face if they did anything BUT run.
Pulling a gun KNOWING you aren't going to use it, like Euro did, is a very risky bet. Lots of people aren't scared of a guy with a gun, because they know 2/3 of the William Whitebreads walking around with guns really aren't going to use them. - and guess what? they were RIGHT.
If one of them had made for Euro and tried to disarm him, he just told us that he would not shoot. So what would he have done? Holster the gun and start going Marquis of Queensbury with a bunch of thugs?
I'll tell you what he would have done: He would have vapor locked at the Decide step of the loop and would be on the ground getting his teeth kicked in lickety-split, and would have been lucky to not be killed with his own weapon.
If you want to live, you don't intervene in shit like this unless you're prepared to go all the way. Euro was lucky.
Wow man, its almost like you were there and you know all the facts. Cool story bro.
Now, if ever you end up shooting a (or a couple) unarmed black teens in an urban setting in Florida weeks after Zimmerman's arrest - hit me up. I'll send a few bucks your way for lawyer fees and permanent relocation.
"White Military veteran shoots two unarmed black teenagers (Insert 8 year old picture of them playing football) who were innocently teasing an older man about his Rolex"
Great headline.
But continue with telling us exactly what I would have done. (For the record, I would have ran and I would not have fired until I was on the ground.) You may be absolutely right, I might have ended up on the ground getting my teeth kicked in. Oh well, I'll buy dentures. I won't be in prison. Its sad, but thats the world we live in.
Edit: Let me clarify exactly what I'm saying.
RE "only pull a gun if you are willing to use it" crowd: I don't think that really applies. If they continued their robbery, I would have fired. They were committing a felony and it would have been perfectly justifiable to do so. But they all stopped the second I pulled the firearm out. Should I have not screamed to "Leave him alone!" and just started firing shots at them? MMQB that all you want, but thats the decision I made. Luckily, it turned out well.
Now, if they then stopped robbing that man and chose to attack me, and they were unarmed, I would have ran. Why? Because running to police (who are at a permanent spot 1/2 a block away on Saturday nights) would be easier than shooting unarmed black teens in a Florida street. Thats just the way it is homie, if you disagree thats totally fine. I will continue to pray neither of us are ever faced with that situation and have to find out.
Now, if after running they caught up to me and I was attacked by more than one (disparity of force per Florida law), then I would then have used lethal force to defend myself.
At least then I could have showed that I fleed the attackers and they caught up to me. But unless I have all my ducks in a row, I'm not going to be shooting anyone unless I can totally and 100% positively prove without a shadow of a doubt that I was in fear for my life.
This is not specifically about Euro's story, but on the topic of "pulling a gun" or firing a warning shot...
"Pulling a gun" as it's commonly called and not needing to use it can and often will be looked at as aggravated assault. If you don't need to shoot then you don't need to expose your firearm. If you don't need to shoot then you are not in life threatening danger and it's highly likely that YOU will be the one getting prosecuted, even if you are the victim (in the real world, not legal sense). Screwed up? Yep. But don't think for one second that the situation can't or won't be twisted that way.
On warning shots...
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/florida-stand-ground-sentencing/index.html
I'm curious to get your take on what this purpoted LEO has to say about when to draw (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_38/477114_Must_read_post_from_GD.html)
Now IMHO I think that firing a warning shot is generally a really bad idea, and never appropriate into the air for obvious reasons. But perhaps the rules may be different when dealing with a mob involved in stomping someone to death. So for the sake of discussion, has anyone ever contemplated firing a shot into a safe/soft medium on the ground (dirt, lawn) in order to disperse a small dangerous mob such as the one featured in our story here?
And if one did decide to get involved in that case and decided that that person's life was in danger, one draws and in a strong command voice declares...what? "You are Kiling him! Stop or I will shoot?". Specifically, what would you fellers that would want to get involved, say and do?
It is easy to say that you'd get involved, but it may be useful for everyone, including yourselves to play out a hypothetical scenario and contingency plans.
I'm especially interested in what you would plan on doing once you declare a version of "stop killing him, or I will shot", and then someone in the mob, or a part of the mob, turn toward you, unarmed, and start advancing toward you in a threatening manner.
Also it would obviously depend on how dynamic the situation was, but I think everyone would agree that at first it would be best to stay on the periphery in a good observational vantage point and first call 911 and report the situation. If/when the mob goes into "stomping to kill mode", what would you say to the 911 operator, e.g. "I'm armed legally, they are killing him, I will draw my gun and try to stop them", something different? What if the 911 operator than tells you to withdraw and not get involved?
I've got my ideas of how some of this may play out but I would like to know what you guys think.
Eurodriver
05-13-12, 13:35
I'm curious to get your take on what this purpoted LEO has to say about when to draw (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_38/477114_Must_read_post_from_GD.html)
Now IMHO I think that firing a warning shot is generally a really bad idea, and never appropriate into the air for obvious reasons.
I agree. I think warning shots are 100% wrong 100% of the time
But perhaps the rules may be different when dealing with a mob involved in stomping someone to death.
No way, but as you said, for the sake of discussion..
So for the sake of discussion, has anyone ever contemplated firing a shot into a safe/soft medium on the ground (dirt, lawn) in order to disperse a small dangerous mob such as the one featured in our story here?
And if one did decide to get involved in that case and decided that that person's life was in danger, one draws and in a strong command voice declares...what? "You are Kiling him! Stop or I will shoot?". Specifically, what would you fellers that would want to get involved, say and do?
Considering I was just in an almost identical situation not even a month ago...I simply drew my weapon at about 15 yards and yelled, in a strong, loud, firm, command voice "Leave him alone!" They immediately started to scatter, except one who walked away slowly "looking tough". But he eventually took off too after a few seconds (which seemed like hours)
It is easy to say that you'd get involved, but it may be useful for everyone, including yourselves to play out a hypothetical scenario and contingency plans.
I'm especially interested in what you would plan on doing once you declare a version of "stop killing him, or I will shot", and then someone in the mob, or a part of the mob, turn toward you, unarmed, and start advancing toward you in a threatening manner.
See my post above. Short answer - I would retreat until it was no longer feasible to do so. With my military background (however non-elite it may be, a District attorney may not see it that way) and my size, I am not about to shoot someone when it is a one-on-one fight and he is unarmed. The press and DA would have a field day. However, with all my cards on the table (him knowing that I have a gun), I'm not going to holster it and then proceed to get into a street brawl.
Also it would obviously depend on how dynamic the situation was, but I think everyone would agree that at first it would be best to stay on the periphery in a good observational vantage point and first call 911 and report the situation. If/when the mob goes into "stomping to kill mode", what would you say to the 911 operator, e.g. "I'm armed legally, they are killing him, I will draw my gun and try to stop them", something different? What if the 911 operator than tells you to withdraw and not get involved?
This is exactly what happened to me, but I did not call 911 until after the fact. Others had called to report it, I even tried de-escalating it until it got crazy out of hand and his life was in danger.
I've got my ideas of how some of this may play out but I would like to know what you guys think.
.....
Edit: I'm trying to get a hold of the 911 tapes from that night. Give me a couple weeks. It would be pretty valuable I think. If only to hear the police when they tackled me ;)
Voodoo_Man
05-13-12, 14:04
I, personally, give the same advice to conceal carry citizens as I do to the guys I work with.
If you are out and come to a situation which may require some sort of police response (a fight, someone getting attacked, a mob fight on one), pick up your phone and call 911 - be a good witness. That will be infinitely more good than you getting yourself involved into it for all parties.
However, if you see a violent felony which has the ability to result in protracted loss of bodily function or death, then you should step in whenever it feasible for your current position and the situation. Example; if you are out with the wife, kids, elderly mom/dad, friends who are liberals (and will cry right away) your #1 priority is their safety and you cannot do that if you are dead or in a gun fight, unless of course the threat becomes directed at you without provocation.
Dialing 911 is very important as it is an instant recording of everything that goes on, real time and the best part is (if there is one) it is automatically discoverable in court. Its like having a recorder on you, of course you have to know that everything you will say, can and will be scrutinized, but that is to be expected - better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
If you absolutely have to get involved and you have the belief that someone is going suffer serious bodily injury or death, you need to act if in the position to do so (especially if you are a LEO and have no liability like kids/wife/etc with you).
LowSpeed_HighDrag
05-13-12, 19:57
I, personally, give the same advice to conceal carry citizens as I do to the guys I work with.
If you are out and come to a situation which may require some sort of police response (a fight, someone getting attacked, a mob fight on one), pick up your phone and call 911 - be a good witness. That will be infinitely more good than you getting yourself involved into it for all parties.
However, if you see a violent felony which has the ability to result in protracted loss of bodily function or death, then you should step in whenever it feasible for your current position and the situation. Example; if you are out with the wife, kids, elderly mom/dad, friends who are liberals (and will cry right away) your #1 priority is their safety and you cannot do that if you are dead or in a gun fight, unless of course the threat becomes directed at you without provocation.
Dialing 911 is very important as it is an instant recording of everything that goes on, real time and the best part is (if there is one) it is automatically discoverable in court. Its like having a recorder on you, of course you have to know that everything you will say, can and will be scrutinized, but that is to be expected - better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
If you absolutely have to get involved and you have the belief that someone is going suffer serious bodily injury or death, you need to act if in the position to do so (especially if you are a LEO and have no liability like kids/wife/etc with you).
Great post, I agree.
QuietShootr
05-13-12, 20:10
Wow man, its almost like you were there and you know all the facts. Cool story bro.
Now, if ever you end up shooting a (or a couple) unarmed black teens in an urban setting in Florida weeks after Zimmerman's arrest - hit me up. I'll send a few bucks your way for lawyer fees and permanent relocation.
"White Military veteran shoots two unarmed black teenagers (Insert 8 year old picture of them playing football) who were innocently teasing an older man about his Rolex"
Great headline.
But continue with telling us exactly what I would have done. (For the record, I would have ran and I would not have fired until I was on the ground.) You may be absolutely right, I might have ended up on the ground getting my teeth kicked in. Oh well, I'll buy dentures. I won't be in prison. Its sad, but thats the world we live in.
Edit: Let me clarify exactly what I'm saying.
RE "only pull a gun if you are willing to use it" crowd: I don't think that really applies. If they continued their robbery, I would have fired. They were committing a felony and it would have been perfectly justifiable to do so. But they all stopped the second I pulled the firearm out. Should I have not screamed to "Leave him alone!" and just started firing shots at them? MMQB that all you want, but thats the decision I made. Luckily, it turned out well.
Now, if they then stopped robbing that man and chose to attack me, and they were unarmed, I would have ran. Why? Because running to police (who are at a permanent spot 1/2 a block away on Saturday nights) would be easier than shooting unarmed black teens in a Florida street. Thats just the way it is homie, if you disagree thats totally fine. I will continue to pray neither of us are ever faced with that situation and have to find out.
Now, if after running they caught up to me and I was attacked by more than one (disparity of force per Florida law), then I would then have used lethal force to defend myself.
At least then I could have showed that I fleed the attackers and they caught up to me. But unless I have all my ducks in a row, I'm not going to be shooting anyone unless I can totally and 100% positively prove without a shadow of a doubt that I was in fear for my life.
That's not what you said before, you said you weren't going to shoot at all. What you posted above I can get behind (except for the getting involved in the first place, or the running if they attacked you thing - in for a penny, in for a pound at that point...).
[focus change]
And warning shots are still ****ing stupid. [/fc]
Eurodriver
05-14-12, 10:10
That's not what you said before, you said you weren't going to shoot at all. What you posted above I can get behind (except for the getting involved in the first place, or the running if they attacked you thing - in for a penny, in for a pound at that point...).
[focus change]
And warning shots are still ****ing stupid. [/fc]
Sometimes my desire to "stir the pot" outweighs my ability to articulate my thoughts clearly. My apologies. :o What I was really trying to get at is there is no way in hell I would want (not that I would want to shoot anyone but...) to shoot an unarmed black teen in a Florida street.
Warning shots are stupid.
But continue with telling us exactly what I would have done. (For the record, I would have ran and I would not have fired until I was on the ground.) You may be absolutely right, I might have ended up on the ground getting my teeth kicked in. Oh well, I'll buy dentures. I won't be in prison. Its sad, but thats the world we live in.
In order to support your viewpoint, you simply assume that it's better to get your "teeth kicked in" than go to prison. So you conveniently discount the possibility of being beaten into a coma, being beaten to death, having your firearm taken and used against you, etc. And all this after you made the honorable and courageous decision to run away.
snackgunner
05-14-12, 10:53
Considering I was just in an almost identical situation not even a month ago...I simply drew my weapon at about 15 yards and yelled, in a strong, loud, firm, command voice "Leave him alone!" They immediately started to scatter, except one who walked away slowly "looking tough". But he eventually took off too after a few seconds (which seemed like hours) .
Absolutely.
Its only been a few weeks since I was body slammed by the police for saving a white man from being robbed by numerous black teens.
I would not have shot any of them if they continued to assault him, true story. No way I'm shooting unarmed black teens this day and age, I'd let them kick my head in before going to jail for Murder 2. I thank God every day those kids scattered when I pulled my weapon, just one idiot trying to act tough would have changed the entire situation.
Unless of course, you want to pay for my attorney fees and give me my own private country that I can flee to after being found not guilty and having the NBPs put a bounty on my head.
Ive got to call bullshit on this one. Considering how you jumped on my back and said you were so sure you would have fired, after what I said in this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104014
I wrote: "But me personally, I wouldnt draw my handgun unless I inteded to use it and not to just scare someone away."
And you went ahead and said:
Gentlemen, At that point I drew my firearm and yelled for them to get down on the ground. The assailants scattered quickly.
and
You can bet your behind if they continued to stomp and kick the man on the ground I would have fired my weapon to stop them. I did not pull my weapon to "scare them away". I pulled my weapon to stop the attack. Why am I going to shoot several unarmed men in the street after they have stopped the attack and are literally running away? Should I have not announced my presence first and just shot them instead?
Moral of the story is, like Quietshooter said "it's always improper to display a weapon if you truly aren't prepared to shoot if your bluff is called."
And sometimes, depending on the situation, it is best to not get involved all together and risk your own safety or your family's.
Cincinnatus
05-14-12, 11:28
Speaking of displaying a firearm and the role that can play, this particular incident is one where the prosecutors are using it as one of provocation or escalation: agression rather than defense.
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_hillsborough/stand-your-ground-defense-denied-for-trevor-dooley-in-2010-death-of-david-james-in-valrico
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-14-12, 11:34
The good news is that by the law of averages, a third of these attackers will be dead, a third will be in jail and a third won't be caught yet for something within 10 years.
Eurodriver
05-14-12, 16:19
In order to support your viewpoint, you simply assume that it's better to get your "teeth kicked in" than go to prison. So you conveniently discount the possibility of being beaten into a coma, being beaten to death, having your firearm taken and used against you, etc. And all this after you made the honorable and courageous decision to run away.
Yeah sure. And?
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