In the market for my first gun

[beschatten]

Hey guys,

In short; I recently got into the sport of guns to get closer to my dad. Been looking and doing a lot of research and renting semi-auto's to figure out what would best suite me.

It's really a toss up between the Sig226, Browning Hi-Power and the S&W M&P 40 Pro 5".

I've heard there may be potential accuracy issues with the M&P which is kind of a bummer, but the Sig226 is a bit steeper in price. Both had great egro's, both shot well (I'm sure at this point the gun outshoots me). The DA/SA kind of threw me off, which is why I loved the S&W. I didn't have a chance to (or found a BHP).

I'm always open minded to new recommendations, and would love feedback on an ideal first handgun. I have no intentions of getting a ccw, so larger frames are great. Easier recoil and more fun at the range.

[Grizzly16]

I don't think the M&P 40s have the accuracy issues just the 9mm. That said a 9mm is going to be a lot cheaper to train with than a 40. Are you sure you want a 40 to get into competitive shooting?

[Scorpion]

The M&P40s do not have accuracy issues; that is only the 9mm, at extended ranges.

[beschatten]

I stopped by Wal-mart a couple times to buy ammo for rented guns. The 9mm was around 11-12$ for 50, and the .40 was around 16$ for 50. I guess at initial thought, I didn't mind the 5 extra bucks. I can see it adding up though.

[Oscar 319]

If this is your first gun, I would strongly encourage you to get a .22.

You can shoot all day for $20. You will build skill, learn the fundamentals and have fun doing it. All new shooters should start out on a .22 and work their way up. Everyone should own a .22.

Just my $.02.

[ucrt]

.

Find a used Glock 19 or an M&P 9mm. Looking for a good used one might be a good opportunity for you and your Dad to get closer without having to wear ear plugs. ;)

Although, it sounds like ammo costs are a major factor in your decision, if that is the case, get a nice Ruger .22 Auto and then just shoot the heck out of it. Ain't nothing wrong with a good .22 as a starter gun.

I'm more impressed with someone that can put .22 bullets in a nice tight little group versus someone that hits the target every now and then.

But maybe it's just me...

.

[Grizzly16]

I stopped by Wal-mart a couple times to buy ammo for rented guns. The 9mm was around 11-12$ for 50, and the .40 was around 16$ for 50. I guess at initial thought, I didn't mind the 5 extra bucks. I can see it adding up though.

A afternoon at the range can easily hit 200 rounds doing drills. Extend that to a class, the last one I went through was around 400 rounds for the evening. That $5 adds up REAL quick. Plus for pure target shooting 9mm is easier to get follow up shots.

If it wasn't for requirements out of my control I'd be all 9mm. But .40 is required so I shoot it.

[beschatten]

.

Find a used Glock 19 or an M&P 9mm. Looking for a good used one might be a good opportunity for you and your Dad to get closer without having to wear ear plugs. ;)

Although, it sounds like ammo costs are a major factor in your decision, if that is the case, get a nice Ruger .22 Auto and then just shoot the heck out of it. Ain't nothing wrong with a good .22 as a starter gun.

I'm more impressed with someone that can put .22 bullets in a nice tight little group versus someone that hits the target every now and then.

But maybe it's just me...

.

Believe me I would love a Glock. Cheap. Reliable. Fun as hell. Unfortunately, both him and I are lefties :/

I wouldn't say I'm new per se to shooting; I went to the range a bit with his .357 magnums and .44 magnums, but those were a bit difficult to shoot. I'd like something to call my own, and just get decent on it without looking for a new gun within the next 5-10yrds. Shooting 9mm, .40 and .45's weren't as bad, and I got decent groupings at 7-10yds.

Anyone have any experience at Gun Expos? Ones coming to town at 4/20, are used guns avail there?

Looks like 9mm is def the best option for now.

[Iraqgunz]

Aside from a .22, I would also recommend a good used Glock 19.

[shua713]

If this is your first gun, I would strongly encourage you to get a .22.

You can shoot all day for $20. You will build skill, learn the fundamentals and have fun doing it. All new shooters should start out on a .22 and work their way up. Everyone should own a .22.

Just my $.02.

I agree, I own 4 22's. They are a blast to shoot, I am looking into getting another.

[Grizzly16]

Believe me I would love a Glock. Cheap. Reliable. Fun as hell. Unfortunately, both him and I are lefties :/

I wouldn't say I'm new per se to shooting; I went to the range a bit with his .357 magnums and .44 magnums, but those were a bit difficult to shoot. I'd like something to call my own, and just get decent on it without looking for a new gun within the next 5-10yrds. Shooting 9mm, .40 and .45's weren't as bad, and I got decent groupings at 7-10yds.

Anyone have any experience at Gun Expos? Ones coming to town at 4/20, are used guns avail there?

Looks like 9mm is def the best option for now.
What about being a lefty stops you from using a glock?

[sboza]

All new shooters should start out on a .22 and work their way up.

Horseshit. I've seen plenty of shooters become proficient learning on full calibers. Unless there is a MAJOR strength or flinch issue, I don't think the stairstepped approach is necessary. I find it much easier to allow new shooters to develope the flinch and then work to identify and correct it (ball and dumy and a few variations). This way they know what they are up against and how to fix it. They can take this training home with them to self analyze an correct.

With a .22 and it's minimal recoil, you are not going to see many problems in grip and stance as the shooter can easily game this. If the .22 is not a conversion, the trigger feel an control will be different. It is definately a challenge for new shorter to adapt to different triggers and I would rather they start on the gun they prefer to use/carry.

So basically, after you have allowed them to cheat and develop potential bad habits, you are goin to introduce them to a full caliber and watch them develope a flinch which you will have to correct now along with the bad habits developed by cheating with a .22.

Proper training from a solid instructor and determination and practice are all that is required.

The idea that EVERYONE must start out on a .22 is dated. Some shooters may need it, but that os the exception not the rule. A .22 is fun and cheap to shoot but that is about it.

ETA - And I woul recommend a gen 3 g19 also. Nothing about being a lefty hampers your performance with a glock (with proper training).

[Oscar 319]

Horseshit.

I would prefer that you state you disagree with my opinion and keep it respectful, turbo. It is just that, my opinion.

You can learn to ride a motorcycle before you've learned to ride a bicycle too.

fun·da·men·tal   [fuhn-duh-men-tl]
1.
serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.

I stand by my opinion that the .22 is the best tool to learn the basics of firearms.

Oh, and to the OP- Another vote for a used G19.

[sboza]

I would prefer that you state you disagree with my opinion and keep it respectful, turbo. It is just that, my opinion.

You can learn to ride a motorcycle before you've learned to ride a bicycle too.

fun·da·men·tal   [fuhn-duh-men-tl]
1.
serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.

I stand by my opinion that the .22 is the best tool to learn the basics of firearms.

Oh, and to the OP- Another vote for a used G19.

I apologize that you were offended. Horseshit referred to your statement, not you. Everyone does not have thick skin, I should have chosen a more suitable word.

I would prefer that when you disagree with someones argument, that you at least try to refute it point by point rather than make a weak analogy.

I am going to break this down a bit further that my original post.

For new readers, please read my original post because I am not rehashing all of what I wrote. Too many folks jump in the middle half cocked.

What are the fundamentals and how are they affected by learning on a .22 first?

Stance - Easy to cheat on with a .22. Folks will practice with a too narrow stance for their body shape and size and not be aggressive enough in their lean as the .22 has very little recoil. It is hard to get a student to develop a strong stance to begin with, why hamper it with a training tool that makes it even easier to cheat.

Grip - This is the big one. Not only may the grip be different, the fundamentals of grip pressure and strength are almost impossible for an instructor to notice with a .22. I have seen people develope a bad grip doing this and it is just another bad habit that will need to be corrected when moving up to a full caliber.

Sight Alignment and Sight Picture - Of course these will look a bit different with a different gun but not a big deal.

Breathing - Does not factor in as regular breathing pattern is advised unless making a precision shot.

Trigger Control - Also a big deal. The shooter will learn this trigger and then have to learn the new trigger on his full caliber gun. This can be overcome but is one more challenge for the new shooter.

Follow Through - Greatly affected as we are teaching trigger reset which will likely be different from the full caliber gun and with minimal recoil, what is the shooter really learning about tracking sights and getting back on target while maintaining grip pressure and stance?

All of these fundamentals are affected to some degree by starting with a weak recoiling gun. In addition to flinch, the shooter will have to overcome bad habits developed due to this when moving to a full caliber.

As for the argument people make about flinch. It will happen no matter when the shooter moves to a full caliber. I can correct flinch very effectively and leave the student with the tools to self diagnose and correct it on their own time also.

Again, unless the shooter is very weak or has a very bad flinch (many new women shooters do out of fear), it is absolutely unnecessary for a shooter to start on a .22.

If you actually have counterpoints rather than 30 year old thinking and bad analogies, feel free to challenge me.

P.S. I apologize for the speed write-up, I don't have time to proofread tight now.

[Failure2Stop]

1- If you are just getting into shooting I highly recommend that you let us know exactly what you want to do with the gun, as it makes for a much more sensible recommendation.

There are a lot of ways that one could use a handgun:

Serious. As in in the defense of life. Willing to put in time and effort (and $$) to seek out professional training. Shooting 1,000 rounds or more per month.

Sporting. Want to compete in some gun game. (Specify game), with an expectation that the firearm won't be the weak link in competitiveness.

Fun. Want to shoot at stuff with a reasonable expectation of actually hitting it.

Here at M4, we are mostly oriented to the "serious" user. Of course, many of us dabble in the other 2, but most recommendations will be with the first category at the primary application.

Here's what I recommend:
(originally posted here: http://www.f2sconsulting.com/What_pistol_should_I_buy.html )


What pistol should I buy for practical use?

A frequent question posed to individuals like me, gunstore employees, and on the internet revolve around the initial purchase of a defensive of practical use pistol. By this I am talking about a pistol that is intended to protect the safety of ones self or loved ones. I am not talking about "game" guns or hunting pistols, there are others far more qualified than me to discuss these topics. However, if you are shopping for a pistol for practical use, here is what I recommend:

Ignore minutia.
There are highly skilled users that have highly evolved preferences that make enough of a difference in their performance to seek specific options or features. These preferences will most likely not make much of a difference to the practical user, and in some cases may be detrimental. There are also numerous internet "experts" that have formed strong preferences based off of reading the opinons of specific experts and not off of individual experience. While the opinions of subject matter experts are certainly valuable (otherwise I argue myself into irrelevance as well), the direct experience of the expert is what makes it pertinent. The knowledge and performance behind the words are what makes the information worth paying attention to.

Upgrade critical parts early, and preference parts after experience.
Critical parts for immediate upgrade is a short list; sights and hand dominance parts. Very few pistols come from the factory with acceptable sights. I have a few sights that I use as "go-to" solutions. I can't say that they are always the "best of the best", but I can say that they work for practical use, which is a balance of speed and precision.
Most pistols are configured for right-handed shooters, with a few truly ambidexterous options. Left handed shooters should replace parts as necessary to ensure positive manipulation with the primary shooting hand. It is rare that a slide stop can be switched to the opposite side of the pistol, but other options such as magazine releases and safeties/decockers frequently can, and should be switched to support the dominant hand.

Keep support equipment in mind when purchasing a pistol.
Support equipment includes magazines, replacement/spare parts, holsters, magazine pouches, and ammunition.
There are some really neat pistols that come to market each year, all of them promising to be the next best thing, and many of them do hold the potential to excel. The problem is that new designs usually do not have a simultaneous release of support equipment. The "next best gun" is of little use if the user cannot carry it, shoot it, or fix it when it breaks. Breakage is a very real concern, even for those weapons that promise infallability. Every mechanical item will eventually fail. Every pistol will eventually break. It may happen at 2,000 rounds or at 200,000, but it will eventually happen. I recommend that a user do some research and figure out what parts have the highest failure occurrence, keep a replecement on hand, and know how to replace it. Those pistols that have a high acceptance rate by police departments will have more support gear available, as will older designs with high ownership.

So, what pistol should I get?
The easiest answer, and the one I recommend is this:
Buy a Gen3 G19, 5 mags, good holster that fits your use, a decent mounted light (I prefer the X300), 2 belt pouches, 5,000 rounds of decent practice ammo, and swap the sights for a good set (I personally like Warren's and Heinie, but there are other very good options).
Attend 2 classes from well-regarded trainers and shoot all of your training ammo before considering a platform swap.

It will give you an excellent fundamental base and reference for advancement.

No, I don't think that the G19 is the be-all, end-all when it comes to pistols, but they are easy to fix, easy to find accessories for, well documented, wide spread, well known, and since they are so popular, if you do decide to go to another platform it will be very easy to sell the pistol and accessories without giving it away.


Now, if you just want to go out and chill with your Dad and put holes in beer cans, a .22 is going to be a much more economical choice.
Further, there is nothing that makes the Glock any less suitable for a lefty.

[F-Trooper05]

Bingo^^^

[sboza]

So, what pistol should I get?
The easiest answer, and the one I recommend is this:
Buy a Gen3 G19, 5 mags, good holster that fits your use, a decent mounted light (I prefer the X300), 2 belt pouches, 5,000 rounds of decent practice ammo, and swap the sights for a good set (I personally like Warren's and Heinie, but there are other very good options).
Attend 2 classes from well-regarded trainers and shoot all of your training ammo before considering a platform swap.

I agree with F2S's post and this recommendation in particular. But if you are serious about training and you decide that this is the path you are going to go down, a significant financial investment is required.


Gen 3 glock + 3 additional mags (assuming you're not getting blue box) + holster + x300 + belt + mag pouches + sights (and install) can easily be well over a $1000.

5000 rounds of ammo is another $1000 at least.

Two 2-day training classes will run $900-$1200. Throw in travel expenses, hotel cost, etc... and you may be adding another $1000+.



This means you may, depending on your financial situation, have to put all of those neat "tactical" gadgets and gizmos aside for a year or two and focus on this goal. I can not emphasize this enough, if you are serious, cut out all unnecessary firearms related spending until you saved enough to meet your training goals. It's not easy but it is very, very rewarding. I got a lot of "paid for" training as did a lot of folks here and while you can't beat free, a lot of open enrollment instructors teaching marksmanship and non-opsec violating tactics are on a much higher level than I ever imagined. I have been absolutely amazed by the level of instructors available today. But like f2s said, if you're just gonna shoot beer cans, no need to make that level of sacrifice (time and money).

[beschatten]

The glock's controls are on the right side. I'd just rather not stumble around for that, it's just personal preference that I'd prefer an ambi-gun.
If I'm looking at spending money, I'd like a gun that fits my large hands, makes releasing the slide a bit easier, and is a little more pleasant to the eye. I shot about 100 rounds through a Glock and I just didn't like it. The Walther PPQ just felt better, from egro's, to the trigger feeling like two angel's making tender love. I ended up just spending the rest of the day on that when I rented both.

I guess you could categorize me as competing, or at least staying on par with the father. He was ex-Army, and current LEO in DC. Were polar opposites as I'm in the IT industry.
I'm not trying to rub people off the wrong way, but shooting beer cans with a .22 really isn't the objective. I was more hoping we could bond while potentially doing local competitions.

Would you not suggest Sig226, BHP and M&P? Would you guys consider the Glock superior to these weapons for my needs? I've yet to shoot a BHP and Sig

[sarge1967]

The glock's controls are on the right side. I'd just rather not stumble around for that, it's just personal preference that I'd prefer an ambi-gun.
If I'm looking at spending money, I'd like a gun that fits my large hands, makes releasing the slide a bit easier, and is a little more pleasant to the eye. I shot about 100 rounds through a Glock and I just didn't like it. The Walther PPQ just felt better, from egro's, to the trigger feeling like two angel's making tender love. I ended up just spending the rest of the day on that when I rented both.

I guess you could categorize me as competing, or at least staying on par with the father. He was ex-Army, and current LEO in DC. Were polar opposites as I'm in the IT industry.
I'm not trying to rub people off the wrong way, but shooting beer cans with a .22 really isn't the objective. I was more hoping we could bond while potentially doing local competitions.

Would you not suggest Sig226, BHP and M&P? Would you guys consider the Glock superior to these weapons for my needs? I've yet to shoot a BHP and Sig

The Sig 226 and the BHP are both right handed guns. You will have the same issues with those as with Glock.

You mentioned the PPQ. Why are you not considering one of those? I have one in 9mm and one in .40. They are wonderful pistols. The only drawback is that they are fairly new to market and accessories and spare parts are not as plentiful.

[jmlstl]

The glock's controls are on the right side. I'd just rather not stumble around for that, it's just personal preference that I'd prefer an ambi-gun.
If I'm looking at spending money, I'd like a gun that fits my large hands, makes releasing the slide a bit easier, and is a little more pleasant to the eye. I shot about 100 rounds through a Glock and I just didn't like it. The Walther PPQ just felt better, from egro's, to the trigger feeling like two angel's making tender love. I ended up just spending the rest of the day on that when I rented both.

I guess you could categorize me as competing, or at least staying on par with the father. He was ex-Army, and current LEO in DC. Were polar opposites as I'm in the IT industry.
I'm not trying to rub people off the wrong way, but shooting beer cans with a .22 really isn't the objective. I was more hoping we could bond while potentially doing local competitions.

Would you not suggest Sig226, BHP and M&P? Would you guys consider the Glock superior to these weapons for my needs? I've yet to shoot a BHP and Sig

I just sold my older P226 (2004) and bought a HK P2000. Based on your original post, you're not looking for a CCW but the P2000SK model is a bi more compact if you happen to change your mind between now and when you purchase. Both are ambi-guns and fit my hands well. They comes with different grip replacements for different hands sizes/ergo needs. The downside is you're going to pay between $720-800 for the gun. My opinion is buy it once.

Here are the different trigger variants to accomodate the shooters wants/needs:

P2000: 
Innovative safety trigger with concealed cocking piece in the hammer and centrally located decocking lever for firing in the DA/SA mode.

P2000 V1:
 Innovative safety trigger with concealed cocking piece in the hammer, with a constant trigger pull (Combat Defense Action/LEM trigger of 20 Newtons) from the first shot to the last, without decocking.

P2000 V2:
 Like P2000 V1, however LEM/CDA trigger pull 7.3 pounds (32.5 Newtons).

P2000 V3: 
Conventional DA/SA trigger and hammer, with decocking.

P2000 V4:
 Like P2000 V1, however CDA/LEM trigger pull 6.18 pounds (27.5 Newtons).

P2000 V5: 
Double Action only (DAO), trigger pull approximately 7.87 pounds (35 Newtons).



What's your budget and others can give additional recommendations from there?

[sboza]

The glock's controls are on the right side. I'd just rather not stumble around for that, it's just personal preference that I'd prefer an ambi-gun.
If I'm looking at spending money, I'd like a gun that fits my large hands, makes releasing the slide a bit easier, and is a little more pleasant to the eye. I shot about 100 rounds through a Glock and I just didn't like it. The Walther PPQ just felt better, from egro's, to the trigger feeling like two angel's making tender love. I ended up just spending the rest of the day on that when I rented both.

I guess you could categorize me as competing, or at least staying on par with the father. He was ex-Army, and current LEO in DC. Were polar opposites as I'm in the IT industry.
I'm not trying to rub people off the wrong way, but shooting beer cans with a .22 really isn't the objective. I was more hoping we could bond while potentially doing local competitions.

Would you not suggest Sig226, BHP and M&P? Would you guys consider the Glock superior to these weapons for my needs? I've yet to shoot a BHP and Sig

Maybe it's an IT thing to need everything to be perfect :sarcastic: (no offense, my mom's IT). It is very easy for a left handed pistol shooter to adapt to most right handed guns (glock included). There is no fumbling, just a series of different manipulations for you to choose from. At the very worst, you suffer a loss of a marginal amount of time (but even that is arguable). Not trying to push glock down your throat but the lefty righty is really not what you should base your decision on. I know you put a 100 rounds through it and didn't enjoy it but glock is really one of the guns that require a bit of work, particularly with trigger control.

In any case, your preference is noted. BHP is not my thing, I consider it to be a solid but very dated gun. In addition, I don't think a manual safety is a positive on a pistol. I have shot M&P's but not enough to have an informed opinion formed on them. I was originally trained on the Sig P229. P226 is just a full size version of the P229. I love the gun but I couldn't keep up (in training) with shooters who ran glocks. You can train your draw so that the shot breaks just as you have an acceptable sight picture but this is a highly perishable skill which requires LOTS of practice and you still won't be as fast as you could be with a glock.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bulldog7972]

Save yourself some time and money. Go with the Sig 226. You will not regret it.