View Full Version : 11.5" upper for home defense?
I just purchased a 11.5" upper and i see you can only mount it to a pistol lower ect ect following the sbr laws. my question is can i mount it to a rifled lower if it never leaves my house? or use it in self defense in my house with out ever doing the paperwork? thanks
Are you serious? Are you asking if you are allowed to break the law on a forum full of LEOs? I hope you end up in jail.
? how is asking if something is legal or not, illeagal?
glock21xxx
04-07-12, 10:16
Are you serious? Are you asking if you are allowed to break the law on a forum full of LEOs? I hope you end up in jail.
The answer is absolutely not. In fact, you are in violation of NFA if you have a rifled lower and that upper is not on a pistol lower or stored in any other area besides your home/property.
The way I understand it, if you were to use that home built SBR in a defensive situation you would face any imaginable charge the local prosecutor could make stick.
Just my .02, don't do it. :nono:
Thanks. I'll get a 5.5" FH and peen it.
? how is asking if something is legal or not, illeagal?
It is not illegal to ask. It's not even a violation of forum policy to ask....you're good in that regard.
The problems come about when any given member begins to advocate the commission of illegal acts...which isn't what's going on, here. So, doubly good.
What you're asking sounds like a definite No-Go, however.
First off, everyone take a deep breath and instead of filling his world with doom and gloom, explain what is happening.
1. SBR's are legal in Wisconsin. So if you want an 11.5" then you simply follow the procedures to buy or build one.
2. Your other option is to get a get stripped lower and build an AR pistol. It's not the route that I would take.
If you build an SBR or try to be slick Willy and use the weapon and it is not done legally then you are obviously going to prison for a while and the 2nd Amendment will not be your friend.
The answer is absolutely not. In fact, you are in violation of NFA if you have a rifled lower and that upper is not on a pistol lower or stored in any other area besides your home/property.
The way I understand it, if you were to use that home built SBR in a defensive situation you would face any imaginable charge the local prosecutor could make stick.
Just my .02, don't do it. :nono:
A few things, first to the original poster, according to the National Firearms Act it doesn't matter where the item is in regards to home or at the range. If you have a short barrel rifle and it's not registered with the ATF as such you're in violation regardless if it's in self defense in your home.
Now to the poster of the above comment, YOU'RE WRONG. People read something on the internet then three people agree with them and then everyone takes it as a fact. It is not illegal to possess an upper reciever with a barrel shorter than 16 inches if you don't have an SBR lower or pistol lower for it. You can own as many uppers as you want in any length you want. It is only a violation once you put the two together.
Otherwise the ATF would be coming down on companies like BCM, DSG Arms, etc because they sell upper recievers with barrels shorter than 16 inches and they sell lower recievers. Do you think they have those all in the same wearhouse? I'm willing to bet they do. It's not illegal!!!!!!! This is my new crusade, to teach people that constructive intent is a boogeyman made up by the internet.
A few things, first to the original poster, according to the National Firearms Act it doesn't matter where the item is in regards to home or at the range. If you have a short barrel rifle and it's not registered with the ATF as such you're in violation regardless if it's in self defense in your home.
Now to the poster of the above comment, YOU'RE WRONG. People read something on the internet then three people agree with them and then everyone takes it as a fact. It is not illegal to possess an upper reciever with a barrel shorter than 16 inches if you don't have an SBR lower or pistol lower for it. You can own as many uppers as you want in any length you want. It is only a violation once you put the two together.
Otherwise the ATF would be coming down on companies like BCM, DSG Arms, etc because they sell upper recievers with barrels shorter than 16 inches and they sell lower recievers. Do you think they have those all in the same wearhouse? I'm willing to bet they do. It's not illegal!!!!!!! This is my new crusade, to teach people that constructive intent is a boogeyman made up by the internet.
Preaching the good word of NFA laws here. Good post.
The above situation is the same as the ol "M16 carrier in an AR15 is illegal" myth, as perpetuated by Bushmaster and sucked up by Bubbas for the past 20 years as golden law.
I've yet to see any constructive possession cases pan out. And I've been doing NFA for two decades and have quite the collection of cases built up.
Are you serious? Are you asking if you are allowed to break the law on a forum full of LEOs? I hope you end up in jail.
He is not breaking the law by asking a question, so calm down. That kind of disobliging attitude is what makes new members to this forum feel unwelcome. "I hope you end up in jail", are you serious? your antagonistic attitude is not necessary. As for the op, I would not go down that road if I were you.
Apply for and get your $200 tax stamp and build your rifle. I only wish I could do that in Obamastan where I live.
glock21xxx
04-07-12, 16:44
A few things, first to the original poster, according to the National Firearms Act it doesn't matter where the item is in regards to home or at the range. If you have a short barrel rifle and it's not registered with the ATF as such you're in violation regardless if it's in self defense in your home.
Now to the poster of the above comment, YOU'RE WRONG. People read something on the internet then three people agree with them and then everyone takes it as a fact. It is not illegal to possess an upper reciever with a barrel shorter than 16 inches if you don't have an SBR lower or pistol lower for it. You can own as many uppers as you want in any length you want. It is only a violation once you put the two together.
Otherwise the ATF would be coming down on companies like BCM, DSG Arms, etc because they sell upper recievers with barrels shorter than 16 inches and they sell lower recievers. Do you think they have those all in the same wearhouse? I'm willing to bet they do. It's not illegal!!!!!!! This is my new crusade, to teach people that constructive intent is a boogeyman made up by the internet.
From my understanding - which certainly may be less than yours - what I had said was it was not kosher to store an sbr upper in addition to a rifled lower in the same location. This would be a grey area deemed not ok by the ATF - or so I thought. If I am wrong - I humbly stand corrected.
Can you show where someone who had a short upper and rifles stored together was charged with a crime? If so, was it because the BATF fairy showed up or because they were committing other crimes?
Here's what all of you internet NFA worriers need to realize. The BATF is very busy. Aside from the "Fast and Furious" fiasco they have theur hands full of stuff.
They don't randomly show up at peoples houses and start looking for short lowers, machine guns or anything else.
I'd be willing to bet that you would have better odds at winning the lottery than having them knock on your door.
Another thing to consider is this. Don't post your personal life and business all over the net and you probably will die of old age.
From my understanding - which certainly may be less than yours - what I had said was it was not kosher to store an sbr upper in addition to a rifled lower in the same location. This would be a grey area deemed not ok by the ATF - or so I thought. If I am wrong - I humbly stand corrected.
^^Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
....................
Another thing to consider is this. Don't post your personal life and business all over the net and you probably will die of old age.
^ this...
startedwith1
04-16-12, 21:20
this!
He is not breaking the law by asking a question, so calm down. That kind of disobliging attitude is what makes new members to this forum feel unwelcome. "I hope you end up in jail", are you serious? your antagonistic attitude is not necessary. As for the op, I would not go down that road if I were you.
Well! Once you have a legal SBR. I wouldnt use one for HD or truck carry. Just cause, a justified shooting will cost me money for a legal defense. Without the possiable issue's brought on buy useing a NFA weapon. Argue all you want. This is always the problem. Courts and lawyers, and the spin placed on the issue at hand. Why put another hurdle in front of you?
Bravo to you. You came out of hibernation to pass on your completely idiotic and misguided wisdom.
There are no issues with using NFA items for self defense. If you can put to any previous case law please feel free to do so.
Courts and lawyers aside, a bad shoot is a bad shoot. A good shoot is a good shoot.
Well! Once you have a legal SBR. I wouldnt use one for HD or truck carry. Just cause, a justified shooting will cost me money for a legal defense. Without the possiable issue's brought on buy useing a NFA weapon. Argue all you want. This is always the problem. Courts and lawyers, and the spin placed on the issue at hand. Why put another hurdle in front of you?
Bravo to you. You came out of hibernation to pass on your completely idiotic and misguided wisdom.
There are no issues with using NFA items for self defense. If you can put to any previous case law please feel free to do so.
Courts and lawyers aside, a bad shoot is a bad shoot. A good shoot is a good shoot.
One I dont care to be called names by anyone! If you have a clear and honest disagreement with me post it! I have 8 years of certified police enforcement. In AZ. I would like to bring to this table of disscusion the story of the current owner of al mars knifes and his issue of self defense with a 556 ruger in the H&K factory parking lot. And the teacher in northern az that was convicted and later over turned. When he was attact on a trail by 2 dogs. And had to shoot the owner with a 10mm. The county att. made a issue about the cal. And let us not forget Trevor Martin although it is along way from being over. How many different paths has it taken.
Courts and lawyers aside???a bad shoot is a bad shoot. a good shoot is a good shoot??? In a perfect world. Maybe we would like to believe that? But here in the real world. the courts and lawyers will not be pushed aside. And personal agenda's (of a lawyers,judge or law enforcement officer) can very will be a option to combat in a court setting.
Well! Once you have a legal SBR. I wouldnt use one for HD or truck carry. Just cause, a justified shooting will cost me money for a legal defense. Without the possiable issue's brought on buy useing a NFA weapon. Argue all you want. This is always the problem. Courts and lawyers, and the spin placed on the issue at hand. Why put another hurdle in front of you?
One I dont care to be called names by anyone! If you have a clear and honest disagreement with me post it! I have 8 years of certified police enforcement. In AZ. I would like to bring to this table of disscusion the story of the current owner of al mars knifes and his issue of self defense with a 556 ruger in the H&K factory parking lot. And the teacher in northern az that was convicted and later over turned. When he was attact on a trail by 2 dogs. And had to shoot the owner with a 10mm. The county att. made a issue about the cal. And let us not forget Trevor Martin although it is along way from being over. How many different paths has it taken.
Courts and lawyers aside???a bad shoot is a bad shoot. a good shoot is a good shoot??? In a perfect world. Maybe we would like to believe that? But here in the real world. the courts and lawyers will not be pushed aside. And personal agenda's (of a lawyers,judge or law enforcement officer) can very will be a option to combat in a court setting.
Can you post a link to the two cases you are referring to (excluding the Martin case)?
It doesn't sound like they have anything to do with using an SBR for self defense. Sure, attorneys can try to make an issue out of anything, such as the issue made about hollow points. They can and have tried to make an issue out of the simple fact that someone had a gun in the first place and used it for self-defense instead of running away like a sheep and blowing a rape whistle.
I won't call you names, but I will say that the advice you are giving is BS. Could an issue be made out of using an NFA firearm in a self-defense situation? Sure. An issue can be made out of any self-defense incident, whether you use a pistol, SBR, rocket launcher, or a a wooden spoon to defend yourself. If your legally allowed to possess the weapon, then **** whatever issue they want to try to make out of it.
Anyone that carries a gun for self-defense should stay up to speed on the laws that apply to them and be prepared to keep their damn mouth shut and retain an attorney if they are ever involved in a shooting. Might not be a bad idea to do some research and have an attorney in mind.
This goes back to the phrase, "it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."
To the OP...Yes you need to register an SBR even if it's staying in your house. I see nothing wrong legally or tactically with using an 11.5" SBR for home defense. I carry an 11.5" BCM as a patrol rifle. SBRs are easier to move around with in tighter spaces, ie, in and out of cars and in CQB enviroments like your house.
YMMV but this is the route that I took:
Bought a short barreled upper and a lower. BUT, I also bought a spikes pistol receiver extension (buffer tube if you will ($50)). So I put all that together in the legal pistol form. That way I was able to shoot my gun and be noobish, as I had to play with my new toy. (FWIW, pistols kinda suck. they look cool, but it's hard to hit anything consistently without having a stock to shoulder and a good cheek weld)
Meanwhile, with the lower in posession, I had the serial number and all that, so I filled out a Form 1 to "build" an SBR and sent a $200 check with all appropriate paperwork to the BATFE.
Once I got my stamp back, I used the same buffer and spring, but just swapped out the pistol receiver extension for a 6 pos carbine extension and magpul stock. Woialah!
A legal SBR. Puts the pistol config to shame.
to the OP..you say you have a rifle lower? You may consider using that serial number to send to the BATFE. Then you can have your short barreled upper on there without getting in trouble....but still be legal to throw the rifle length upper back on there too at any time. Your call.
http://www.davehayes.org/2006/02/10/the ... n-incident
http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html
Here is a couple. they are useing machine guns. I know they are not SBR's But they are NFA weapons(as if most lawyers know the difference ). I posted I would not use! I did not say for him not to use. Nor did I comment on the law. Maybe after reading these 2 good shoots. One may better understand the reason's for my post. The after effect is a very important factor of the shooting issue. I feel court defense ability is something that needs consideration.
I cant seem to find the shooting in northern az. Although full auto's were used in the example's given they are both legal owned weapons. And used in accordance with the law (legal shootings). The same as we are discusing now with a SBR. I am in no way saying that its a violation of the law. I am saying why add the possibilitys of other issues in a court setting. When a standard weapon would circumvent a arm chair quarterback wearing a suit adding court cost to the issue.
I gave a opinion to the post not legal advice.
http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/replybrieffinal2.htm
Here is the other example I mentioned of how things can be twisted in a good shoot. although it is not a nfa weapon. Its still a good example of why I have the opinion I do
The Fadden incident happened close to 30 years ago and was prosecuted by an anti gun prosecutor. The Fish case was also an anti gun prosecutor and he had poor legal counsel. He was later freed and his conviction overturned. In addition the judge screwed as well.
So once again please provide some real case law to support your position. Personally I lose about 30 seconds of sleep at night worrying about such internet fantasy. Obviously it concerns you.
Hold on. Did I just get things twisted, or did we go from sbr to f/a for a HD/SD situation. I know it's all NFA, but that's quite a leap from a manuverable cqb weapon to zombie time. I thought this was about sbr w/o a stamp conversation?
I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a holiday inn express last night, but if I read the NFA handbook correctly (took awhile , a legal aide and the Rosetta stone), if a weapon is legal to own, proper paper work, stamp, etc... Why are we even having this discussion, other than the fact that anti gun zealots (read most DAs, liberal judges,oh you know who) would rather crucify you than say its ok to exercise your rights as a law abiding citizen. Hell, they could make a case if the paperclip you were using was too hard or the rubberband was too strong and you used "excessive force".
So once again please provide some real case law to support your position. Personally I lose about 30 seconds of sleep at night worrying about such internet fantasy. Obviously it concerns you.
real case law? The ones he posted were fiction?
On a side note someone comes in my house they are going to get shot with my SBR unless my lady get them first with the 14.5 :)
fallenromeo
04-17-12, 10:19
I would not do what the OP is talking about, but I wouldn't hesitate to use an SBR for HD if it was on a legal lower. The only drawback I can think of in using a SBR for HD is how ridiculously loud it would be in a closed environment.
real case law? The ones he posted were fiction?
Posting links to someone's blog are hardly case law citations.
Talk to a real expert, someone like James Bardwell, and he will shut down these NFA conspiracy theories pretty quickly.
Good to know!
gold little read I found from him
http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/nfa_faqhtml.html
Posting links to someone's blog are hardly case law citations.
Talk to a real expert, someone like James Bardwell, and he will shut down these NFA conspiracy theories pretty quickly.
I only said I would not use one. For the reason given. And every one say's the same thing. Anty gunners(judges & lawyers) will make a mountain out of a mole hill. And that is why I wouldnt use one. There is no case law stopping the use of SBR for use.
I never said I was a expert. I only gave my opinion. And I did so with out personal attact's
Have been in the LE world for about 25 years, had a few scrapes on the street, as well as others I know. Have yet to see the gun or ammo come up as a factor in a case...and had one friend who was involved in a shooting used a .41 Mag on duty.
Unless you read Ayoob and his dribble, sleep well at night.
The best advice I offer all, is to find an attorney who is versed in use of force issues for your state, and in any state you may carry...for the price of a case of ammo or so, sit down with them, use the time wisely, and have their biz card next to your CCW lic.
You are welcome to your opinion. Also, you were never personally attacked. What I said was the post was idiotic. If you can't discern the difference between being an idiot or saying something idiotic then you need to leave the internet.
Smart people say stupid things all the time (radio, TV, etc..) it doesn't make them stupid.
Also, case law can't stop you from doing anything anyways. When I said present some case law I was referring to real deal scenarios in which people were prosecuted for using an SBR.
As for the OP's original post. The question has been answered. Since he hasn't returned, he either got the message or he didn't.
I only said I would not use one. For the reason given. And every one say's the same thing. Anty gunners(judges & lawyers) will make a mountain out of a mole hill. And that is why I wouldnt use one. There is no case law stopping the use of SBR for use.
I never said I was a expert. I only gave my opinion. And I did so with out personal attact's
TriumphRat675
04-17-12, 18:11
Not to derail this thread anymore than it already is, but while I agree with Gunz that using an NFA weapon in a self-defensive situation probably has no legal downside in and of itself, some thought should be given to juror perception in a shoot that may or may not be legally justified. Glenn Meyers wrote up a study (http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/09/will-it-hurt-me-in-court-weapons-issues-and-the-fears-of-the-legally-armed-citizen/) where mock jurors' perception of the "badness" of a self-defense shoot was measurably affected depending on whether the shooter used an AR-15, shotgun, or a handgun. These mock jurors were, it is true, college students, but they were college students in Texas. The AR-15 shooters were judged more harshly than pistol shooters. Etc.
In other words, often the determination of whether or not a shoot was a "good shoot" or not goes to a jury - and in a close call situation, the jury may well be influenced by your choice of weapon.
Everyone here need to be realistic about this. Your average gun-owner does not spend a lot of time shooting, researching, buying, or thinking about their guns, just like they don't worry a lot about their ball-peen hammers. They buy a gun and put it in a drawer, just like their ball-peen hammer. And if they ran into a subset of people who really, really like ball-peen hammers and trick them out with rattle-can paint-jobs and put special steel strike faces on them and swap the handles out for the latest tactical polymer/rubber overmold handle and post pictures of them on the internet, they are going to think those people are pretty weird. Non-hammer owners are going to think they are even weirder.
So, no, while your choice of an NFA weapon will not - or should not - change the legality of any action you take with it, it may affect peoples' perception of, among other things, your motives behind taking that action. They may decide you are a gun-nut, hostile militia-type, or pseudo-Zimmerman, none of which are terms with positive connotations in most of our society. All of this is important to keep in mind.
With all that said, I keep my SBR prepped for HD...because it is the best tool for the job. But I have made that decision after weighing the pros and cons...
One I dont care to be called names by anyone! If you have a clear and honest disagreement with me post it! I have 8 years of certified police enforcement. In AZ. I would like to bring to this table of disscusion the story of the current owner of al mars knifes and his issue of self defense with a 556 ruger in the H&K factory parking lot. And the teacher in northern az that was convicted and later over turned. When he was attact on a trail by 2 dogs. And had to shoot the owner with a 10mm. The county att. made a issue about the cal. And let us not forget Trevor Martin although it is along way from being over. How many different paths has it taken.
Courts and lawyers aside???a bad shoot is a bad shoot. a good shoot is a good shoot??? In a perfect world. Maybe we would like to believe that? But here in the real world. the courts and lawyers will not be pushed aside. And personal agenda's (of a lawyers,judge or law enforcement officer) can very will be a option to combat in a court setting.
Nobody's calling you names but they are calling you out. What does "8 years of certified police enfocement" mean? Are you a cop on the street, a jailer, a transport deputy, or a POST certified security guard?
As for the dribble you're spouting it's just not the reality. There is no more liability shooting someone with an SBR than there is with a full size rifle. Will a defense attorney make a point out if it? Of course they will. A defense attorney could try making a point out of the fact you were wearing 5.11 pants or a black t-shirt.
Would the guy who shot someone with a 10mm been picked on less for using a 9mm, .380, .22? Probably not. Defense attorney's are tool's and we all know that. If you shoot somebody in self defense then you might get strung through the legal ringer no matter what gun you use to do the job. But a good shoot will come out in the end and while it may be expensive it's less costly than your death if you didn't shoot.
And this is from somebody who is an active cop in a municipality where everyone seems to own and carry guns.
I only said I would not use one. For the reason given. And every one say's the same thing. Anty gunners(judges & lawyers) will make a mountain out of a mole hill. And that is why I wouldnt use one. There is no case law stopping the use of SBR for use.
I never said I was a expert. I only gave my opinion. And I did so with out personal attact's
or decent grammar and spelling. Your posts are painful to read.
You twisted the whole issue when your "opinion" was questioned, and then retreated to the tired old "I may be wrong but it's my opinion" defense.
The OP asked about putting his 11.5" upper on a lower and using it for home-defense. His options are to put it on a pistol lower and learn to use it, or register another lower as an SBR and have a legal short barrel rifle.
If there is case law where the use of an SBR played a part in a home-defender being hung out to dry where the use of another firearm or firearm type would have resulted in no charges or an acquittal, I'm sure I am not alone in wanting to see it.
bcarroll,
I don't give a damn if there is a case where the use of an SBR was used against someone who used it in self-defense. Like I and others have said, anything can be used against you by the liberal scum of this society (clothing, gun, sbr, full auto, training, etc.). If you want to completely avoid being a victim of their leftist ignorance, you need to get rid of every weapon you own and lay down and give in every time you are a victim of a crime, because that's what they want you to do. Don't think so, check this crap out http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/mar/1/dcs-crime-solution-be-a-victim/
The problem I have with your mentality/opinion is that by giving in and letting their twisted view of the world influence your decision on what completely legal weapon you will use for self-defense, you are letting them win. Use whatever legal weapon you prefer based on the right reasons and if the time comes where you are challenged for using it, get and attorney and stand up for your rights....Or continue to give in and maybe more will follow you and before you know it we won't be allowed to use a wiffle ball bat to defend ourselves.
I too am curious as to what "8 years of certified police enforcement" is....
I'm amazed at how many threads have been going full retard lately. WTF :confused:
Army Chief
04-18-12, 14:02
I agree, Dave. This one has become an embarassment.
my question is can i mount it to a rifled lower if it never leaves my house?
No.
or use it in self defense in my house with out ever doing the paperwork?
No.
That's all that needed to be said. Done.
AC
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