Decocker on DA/SA pistol?

[Clobbersauras]

Guys, I have a couple questions about using the decocker on a typical SA/DA Pistol.

1) Movement; If you've engaged targets (pistol now in S/A mode) and then need to move (to cover, the next target, whatever) would it be better to decock the pistol before moving or just keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard while moving?

2) Tactical reload; If you've engaged targets (pistol now in S/A mode) and determined that it's now time to top off the pistol, would it be best to decock then perform your tactical reload? Or tactical reload and then decock?

Personally it seems like decocking is the way to go in both situations but I'm interested in feedback on the topic.

[LowandLeft]

I'm not an expert, by any stretch, but I've ran a VAR 1 USP through a couple of classes and I've been told that you always decock for movement. As far as tactical reload I would assume that you have already moved to cover to accomplish this, so you wouldn't need to decock? Otherwise, I would probably put it on safe and tac reload.

[Clobbersauras]

Thanks for the response, good point about moving to cover to tac reload. I didn't immediately think about moving to cover during the reload but it makes sense that if you move you decock.

I use a P2000, there are no external safety's.

[sboza]

Guys, I have a couple questions about using the decocker on a typical SA/DA Pistol.

1) Movement; If you've engaged targets (pistol now in S/A mode) and then need to move (to cover, the next target, whatever) would it be better to decock the pistol before moving or just keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard while moving?

2) Tactical reload; If you've engaged targets (pistol now in S/A mode) and determined that it's now time to top off the pistol, would it be best to decock then perform your tactical reload? Or tactical reload and then decock?

Personally it seems like decocking is the way to go in both situations but I'm interested in feedback on the topic.

I think this depends on the level of training that the user has and what their job description is. A swat dude carring a shield in with one arm is obviously in a different situation from a guy in a home defense scenario.

First learn how to decock minimizing grip shift (strong hand thumb works for me).

Now, the safest option is to decock post engagement prior to your rear scan. The motion is quick and you can still pull the trigger at a y time should the need arise. This means you are decocked prior to pretty much anything including movement.

Another option is to decock about the same time you consider a tac reload (or holster). This requires a higher level of training since contrary to the way most folks with a training class or two behind then think, tac reloading is NOT a common occurrence. Opportunity means the threats are verifiably gone or you ha e really solid cover or covering buddies and situational awareness so you are not ambushed while you dick with your gun. This is a pretty rare situation if you are on your own. As a general rule, until you find real opportunity, shoot until your gun goes dry and emergency (or combat) reload.

Note in the previous scenario, the gun is is not decocked for long periods of time. Any brain fart and it's a short trigger pull to a boom. Forgetting to decock also means a very small obstruction on reholstering can cause a nd. A lot of training is required for this and I don't think much is lost decocking prior to every rear scan just for the sale of consistency and safety.

I say stick with option one. Just remember that a tac reload should be the last thing on your mind when you are in a gun fight. People have been killed doing this automatically as a result of unrealistic training (bg's were down, not dead).

Edit: prior to rear scan, not prior to scan

[mark5pt56]

Just don't get caught up into trying to see if you can be the one decocking the fastest after firing on the target.

Follow through on the primary threat and address immediate others, then take the time to decock if there's nothing else. Do your full scan and assess options. (one being you are doing this as you move to a safer/better position, of course in a team environment-check before you move)

Now, remember, you may be doing movement while shooting and movement to cover, etc. If it's active and you have to re-engage at the position, it may be a quick finger off the trigger and back on during that short time frame.

Everything is fluid, be flexible, think of what you're doing and at the very least, if you aren't on a target shooting, keep your finger off the trigger and do you best to watch the muzzle--

[Jason Falla]

Look at your decock lever like the safety lever on the carbine. At RB1 we teach that the safety lever and the decock lever is applied after the post engagement sequence and prior to any movement (department specific).

I see almost everyone one our training courses applying the safety catch on the carbine too quickly and yet the decock lever sometimes never is used and shooters are holstering up with a DA gun is SA mode!

If everyone makes the comparison between the decock lever of the pistol and safety lever on the carbine and apply them at the same time then we will be sweet.

[Surf]

The Sig Sauer is our issued sidearm. As Jason mentions we use and teach the decocker on any similarly equipped pistol to be run just like the M4 safety.

[Clobbersauras]

If everyone makes the comparison between the decock lever of the pistol and safety lever on the carbine and apply them at the same time then we will be sweet.


The Sig Sauer is our issued sidearm. As Jason mentions we use and teach the decocker on any similarly equipped pistol to be run just like the M4 safety.

That nails it down in perfectly understandable terms.

Thanks everyone for their feedback.

[sboza]

Look at your decock lever like the safety lever on the carbine. At RB1 we teach that the safety lever and the decock lever is applied after the post engagement sequence and prior to any movement (department specific).

I see almost everyone one our training courses applying the safety catch on the carbine too quickly and yet the decock lever sometimes never is used and shooters are holstering up with a DA gun is SA mode!

If everyone makes the comparison between the decock lever of the pistol and safety lever on the carbine and apply them at the same time then we will be sweet.

Makes sense! One question, in a cqb environment, you have stated on m4c that after a certain level of proficiency, you are comfortable with carbine safety off inside the structure. Does this carry over to the decock lever with sa/da pistols also? In other words, the gun may be kept in sa mode until holstering? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Thank you sir.

[Jason Falla]

Makes sense! One question, in a cqb environment, you have stated on m4c that after a certain level of proficiency, you are comfortable with carbine safety off inside the structure. Does this carry over to the decock lever with sa/da pistols also? In other words, the gun may be kept in sa mode until holstering? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Thank you sir.

No, its a good question. The answer is no for the most part! The reason is due to the pistol being such a short weapon, it's hard enough in a CQB environment to maintain good safety with the pistol out of the holster in and around other assaulters and under adverse conditions usually found during a stronghold assault. Gas filled rooms, low light, wearing of gas masks, explosive internal breaching etc.

It would be extremely rare for an assaulter to conduct an assault with a handgun only. There may be times that you may need to transition to a secondary weapon such as clearing confined spaces or if the primary fails. But with the number of long arms available there should be no requirement for pistols only. Some considerations are: defeating body armor, contact enroute to the objective, magazine capacity, size of stronghold and range/accuracy issues, lack of ancillary equipment options etc.

So typically, and mostly due to safety considerations, the pistol is returned to a safe condition after room clearance. If you are the No 1. you may have your pistol on fire (single action only pistol) when coving up on a door or moving down a hallway etc, but on safe if moving behind others in a stack. If you have not fired your pistol, you will be on double action for a SIG/M9 etc.

A double action pistol like a SIG fits the category of anomaly, because there is no external safety lever preventing the weapon from firing. So the decock feature functions as this. Although the weapon is brought back to a safer condition, the weapon is still able to be fired. This is a good feature of a SIG, you can never forget to switch the safety to fire!

Point to note: You would never thumb cock the weapon just because you found yourself as the front of the stack!

A glock is another example of a weapon that has no traditional external safety lever. Nor does it have a decock lever.

During a home defense scenario when you are the only person clearing, unless you have fired your weapon, you will continue to clear on double action, if you fire the weapon and are continuing to clear tactically, you should remain on single action until such times as you need to come off the sights for any length of time. This could be to utilize two hands and need to go back to the holster, you may need to move/run tactically to cover outside of the house or on approach where the weapon may be at a high ready or high port and should be decocked during those times.

I hope this is not clear as mud!

[Clobbersauras]

^^Wow. Thank you for taking the time to write that. It was a very informative, a must read for those using a pistol with a decocker.

[sboza]

No, its a good question. The answer is no for the most part! The reason is due to the pistol being such a short weapon, it's hard enough in a CQB environment to maintain good safety with the pistol out of the holster in and around other assaulters and under adverse conditions usually found during a stronghold assault. Gas filled rooms, low light, wearing of gas masks, explosive internal breaching etc.

It would be extremely rare for an assaulter to conduct an assault with a handgun only. There may be times that you may need to transition to a secondary weapon such as clearing confined spaces or if the primary fails. But with the number of long arms available there should be no requirement for pistols only. Some considerations are: defeating body armor, contact enroute to the objective, magazine capacity, size of stronghold and range/accuracy issues, lack of ancillary equipment options etc.

So typically, and mostly due to safety considerations, the pistol is returned to a safe condition after room clearance. If you are the No 1. you may have your pistol on fire (single action only pistol) when coving up on a door or moving down a hallway etc, but on safe if moving behind others in a stack. If you have not fired your pistol, you will be on double action for a SIG/M9 etc.

A double action pistol like a SIG fits the category of anomaly, because there is no external safety lever preventing the weapon from firing. So the decock feature functions as this. Although the weapon is brought back to a safer condition, the weapon is still able to be fired. This is a good feature of a SIG, you can never forget to switch the safety to fire!

Point to note: You would never thumb cock the weapon just because you found yourself as the front of the stack!

A glock is another example of a weapon that has no traditional external safety lever. Nor does it have a decock lever.

During a home defense scenario when you are the only person clearing, unless you have fired your weapon, you will continue to clear on double action, if you fire the weapon and are continuing to clear tactically, you should remain on single action until such times as you need to come off the sights for any length of time. This could be to utilize two hands and need to go back to the holster, you may need to move/run tactically to cover outside of the house or on approach where the weapon may be at a high ready or high port and should be decocked during those times.

I hope this is not clear as mud!

Thank you sir, that is very clear. I appreciate that you took the time to write that up.

[Redhat]

Good info!

I would like to ask you guys; after hearing Jason's explanation, is there anyone here who would feel okay about operating in a team with the safety off?

[Surf]

M4 and I am not a proponent of safety off as a default even when within a structure clearing. The M4/AR/M16 style safety is very efficient / reliable to manipulate, especially to place the weapon from safe to fire. Also when the user doesn't have control of the weapon with their hands, rifle slung, you have an exposed trigger guard. I see too many instances with a rifle off safe as a default and a sudden need to use the hands and the weapon is released so quickly in a spontaneous perhaps "hands on" situation and even a highly trained user may not be able to, or remember to manipulate the safety. Basically resulting in a hand to hand situation with a slung rifle on fire and an exposed trigger guard.

Pistol is dependent on its trigger and manual of operation. As mentioned with the standard Sig there is no external safety. On say a double action / single action pistol like an M9 or a S&W 5906 or similar style external safety / decocker and that it needs to be swept upward to go safety off and I am not a fan of running it with the safety on. While it is done all the time, it is less efficient / reliable for the thumb to sweep the safety in an upward motion. Up and off and I see a lot of experienced people with the weapon fumble it at times, even I miss it on occasion. In these instances I prefer to look at it like a decocker. Fortunately like the 4 guys in my current course running M9's they are so well worn in that the safety manipulates very very easily, but they still miss it on occasion, especially with gloves. Their units MOP's are to run the safety on, so I do not change that while in my course, but rather get them the repetition.

Now for a pistol who's safety is depressed downward to the off position such as a 1911 or HK USP etc, again the body mechanic of the thumb pressing downward on the safety is much more efficient / reliable to go from safe to fire so running the weapon on safe is not a negative in my view and adds so called value. Now with a really fine tuned or a very low pound pull weight trigger, like say many 1911's and I would not want to run the safety off as a default.

There are more considerations, but this is my general view on it. Of course others may have different experiences / opinions / working situations, so opinions may vary. :)

[sboza]

Good info!

I would like to ask you guys; after hearing Jason's explanation, is there anyone here who would feel okay about operating in a team with the safety off?

I don't want to speak for Jason but I think his discussion was centered around pistol. In training with him, I know he is comfortable with adequately trained students running their carbine with the safety disengaged so long as the safety is engaged anytime the gun is unmounted. It's still tough for me to do because I am so used to manipulating the safety but at the very least, one needs to learn not to reengage the safety too soon post engagement (I was corrected for doing this). I am sure Jason can speak better for himself.

[Redhat]

I don't want to speak for Jason but I think his discussion was centered around pistol. In training with him, I know he is comfortable with adequately trained students running their carbine with the safety disengaged so long as the safety is engaged anytime the gun is unmounted. It's still tough for me to do because I am so used to manipulating the safety but at the very least, one needs to learn not to reengage the safety too soon post engagement (I was corrected for doing this). I am sure Jason can speak better for himself.

Thanks...just to clarify, I was referring to a DA/SA or SA hammer fired pistols.