Off roading 4x4 that gets decent MPG? [Archive]

Reagans Rascals

04-10-12, 00:26

I would never consider a 4X2 for offroading... there are just too many times you will need 4wd... and you know the old addage.. better to have it and not need and yadda yadda yadda

To be honest I don't really know of any that will do decent offroad and still get 25mpg... mostly because 4x4's usually have the aerodynamics of a shoebox... and weigh a shit ton

Look for a Diesel single cab 4x4 pickup for the best mpg or...

Get a 4cyl jeep, throw on some larger tires, and then adjust the gear ratios to get the MPG up....

http://www.jeep4x4center.com/jeep-tires/tire-gear-ratio-chart.htm

I had a 4.0 straight-6 Jeep XJ with 35" TSL's and was running 4.56 gears front and rear with arb air lockers... and I got right at 20mpg... and I weighed it at a Sand Quarry once and it was pushing 4200 pounds.... for a fiberglass unibody Jeep

C-grunt

04-10-12, 01:27

What about a 4x4 Toyota Rav4 V6? It has the mileage but I'm not sure about the off roading.

Reagans Rascals

04-10-12, 01:56

I had a friend in my youth with a Rav4 that was the gullible one in the group that we all used to convince to do crazy shit, so naturally we always talked him into driving us around and messing up his own vehicle instead of ours

well long story short... we did some crazy stuff in that little bugger... we used to joke that the 4WD button on the dash was really just a "courage" button... that it didn't really do anything but give you that little confidence boost when you were contemplating doing something you know might not turn out too well..... should I dive through that huge mud rut?... hit the courage button... and like a little shot of Jack Daniels... a few seconds later... its just... **** it we're goin for it

I would try to find something with 2 solid axles, a manually engaged transfer case, as in a lever that is used to put it in to 4-HI or 4-LO instead of a button or a switch... and if you are concerned about mpg.. try to find a diesel or 4 cylinder.. and definitely a manual transmission

Honestly, not to harp on about it... but I'd look for an older Jeep Cherokee Sport 4 cylinder manual, or the same in a Wrangler... If you looked around the mid-late-90's you can find some really good deals on some really capable rigs that won't break the bank on gas...

When my Cherokee was stock... I took that bitch through things I would have never imagined a stock vehicle could take.. and it always came home.. it was my daily driver... I even hydra-locked the engine meaning I got water in the intake from fording a river... it blew the cam and 2 rods right out of the side of the block, took out the rear of the oil pan, and destroyed 2 cylinders and pistons.... but I was still able to drive that bitch 15 miles home....

I hit a telephone pole when it was raining one day, since my tires were so knobby they had no traction on the road and as I tried to turn I went straight and slid off the road....completely destroyed the front end, blew the pole down and into the middle of the road... destroyed the radiator, busted the crank pulley... mangled the sub frame.... but once again.... I was able to drive it 16 miles home... without the radiator or any pulleys turning...

just something to think about....

To be honest... I'd buy a cheap dedicated off-road rig... and then just keep your current daily driver or just buy a regular car for day to day... kind of diversify... because its going to be difficult to get both a capable off-road rig and something with high mpg... unless you have a large budget.....

Are you looking to buy new or used?

There's a company that does 4bt diesel swaps into newer Wranglers... and those things get >28 mpg..... but you can expect to pay out of the ass for it...

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t403/jwmassaro/6173_936576341434_9353178_59380877_2003211_n.jpg

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t403/jwmassaro/n1460190097_33150_6578.jpg

panzerr

04-10-12, 05:13

But this vehicle would also have to get decent gas mileage (25 mpg highway or more) as it will be my daily driver. I'm looking around and I can't find anything that fits the bill except maybe a 4x4 Tacoma.

You aren't going to find an off-road vehicle that gets 25 mpg or better. And when i say off-road I mean at least a v6 with a frame and suspension build for off-road capability.

The best I have seen is the FJ, but they take premium gas. The best I have got in mine is 23 on the highway with 4 people inside and a bunch of guns in back.

panzerr

04-10-12, 05:14

What about a 4x4 Toyota Rav4 V6? It has the mileage but I'm not sure about the off roading.

A Rav4 is NOT an off-road capable vehicle.

Eurodriver

04-10-12, 05:19

Get a 4cyl jeep, throw on some larger tires, and then adjust the gear ratios to get the MPG up....

http://www.jeep4x4center.com/jeep-tires/tire-gear-ratio-chart.htm

I disagree. I feel the 6 Cyls actually get better gas mileage.

Here is my BOV. 33" tires and 4 cyl. It never EVER gets above 15 mpg, but I do have a heavy foot. It also never gets above 65 mph.

http://i41.tinypic.com/6i8ztw.jpg

Reagans Rascals

04-10-12, 07:20

I disagree. I feel the 6 Cyls actually get better gas mileage.

Here is my BOV. 33" tires and 4 cyl. It never EVER gets above 15 mpg, but I do have a heavy foot. It also never gets above 65 mph.

http://i41.tinypic.com/6i8ztw.jpg

did you re-gear when you upped the tire size? Also is it an auto?

If you didn't re-gear you could be well behind the power curve, thereby requiring much more fuel to turn a larger diameter tire at the same speed as the original sized tires... just as if you did re-gear too low with some absurd ratio like 5.13's you would be well above the power curve for 33" tires and therefore using too much power to spin them because its easier to do so.... the sweet spot is right in the middle... for me it was 4.56... but that may have even been a little too low.. probably could have gotten away with 4.12's

The jeep I had posted earlier was running 33x15.50 TSL SX's with 4.56 gears and then I upped to 35x12 TSL Radials... and I could cruise at 75mph at 1800 rpms...... it was a 4.0 with an AW-4 auto tranny, NP231 T-case, Dana 30 front, Chrysler 8.25 rear... throttle body spacer... Borla header.. 2" exhaust with free flow cat into Flow Master 40 series muffler.. and the snorkel acted like a cold air/ram air intake at speed on the hwy...

I was getting well above 15 mpg.... sometimes as good as 23 under the right conditions... but it only had a 15 gal tank so range was always limited no matter how well I drove...

crusader377

04-10-12, 07:42

A diesel engine Jeep Grand Cherokee or Liberty would probably meet your MPG requirements but they are quite rare. I have a 2005 Nissan Xterra 4x4 which has been a great vehicle. Haven't gotten 25mpg but I do get 21-22MPG on the hwy if I use a lighter foot. The older jeep cherokees with the 4.0L inline six were great vehicles and both myself and my dad had one and they could also get in the low 20s MPG.

Grizzly16

04-10-12, 08:04

What do you mean by decent capability? What kind of stuff off road are you looking to do?

DeltaSierra

04-10-12, 08:05

What about a 4x4 Toyota Rav4 V6? It has the mileage but I'm not sure about the off roading.

I would much rather have a 4Runner or Taco over a Rav if going off road was a serious possibility... The Rav is a nice family car, but off road...not so much.

My 4Runner is completely stock (V6, manual 5 speed transmission,) and gets about 20/21 mpg on the highway. The thing is bulletproof, and the truck has never broken down on me....

As far as a 4x2 Taco, just buy a decent used 4x4 Taco and be done with it... You'll regret getting the 4x2 the first time you get stuck - trust me on that...

R1pper

04-10-12, 08:25

Check out the Nissan Xterra. I have one lifted and it is amazingly capable. In fact that is why I am barely ever on this board is because I spend most of my free time and cash on my Xterra. 20 mpg on the hwy, while running 33" mud terrains and a whole of other weight isnt that hard to do, but it did come a cost (performance mods). If you want to know more kust ask I and will gladly go into greater detail.

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc179/Wkunasek/Random%20Xterra%20stuff/2011-10-28_11-01-21_427.jpg

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc179/Wkunasek/Random%20Xterra%20stuff/2011-08-17_15-19-22_687.jpg

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc179/Wkunasek/Random%20Xterra%20stuff/GG1.jpg

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc179/Wkunasek/Random%20Xterra%20stuff/crafts562.jpg

Also check out www.theXterra.org, this is where I spend most of my internet time

rob_s

04-10-12, 08:34

Reagans Rascals

04-10-12, 08:40

Can you go used to make up for the cost of the gas? I'm considering doing that myself by buying a 2001 Cherokee, getting the engine and trans rebuilt from the ground up, and with a vehicle that cost me <$10k I can afford to pay a little more on the gas mileage.

I have found several CHERRY 1999-2001 Cherokees in my area for ~$6k. One was a limited 4x4 with 110k miles on it (for the Cherokee that's just getting started). That would leave me $4k for rebuild and improvements (lift, tires) which I think is doable.

I currently own a 4x2 Tacoma quad-cab, and while I like the truck I drive like my ass is on fire and average only 17 mpg.

I know the FJ says it needs premium but if I had bought one (was about to choose that over the Tacoma when I bought) I would have fed it 87. I had an Escalade that also supposedly needed 93 and I fed it 87 for two years with zero ill effects.

agree with everyone else in general though, you're not going to find an offroad-capable vehicle getting 25 mpg.

Make sure its not a Grand Cherokee... as they have all time 4wd with no disengage... and literally eat the shit outta your gas

If its got the NP231 t-case you're good to go...

the only thing I disliked about my Cherokee was the lack of manual hubs in the front, meaning the front axle is always spinning regardless if its under power in 4wd or not... which is hell if you have a limited slip or cheaper locker up front like a lockrite or powertrax... but you can swap Ford Explorer hubs up front so you can disengage the front wheels when not in 4wd... if you have the time and feel like bothering with it...

it all drastically affects gas mileage and overall wear and tear on the drivetrain....

R1pper

04-10-12, 09:53

Rob, you can buy a remanufactured engine from company like ATK or Jasper ans the same with a tranny and be under $2k. Check out Rusty's Off Road for quality lifts at a decent price. I wheel with several guys who run them and have no complaints

lethal dose

04-10-12, 09:57

Suzuki samurai.

Dienekes

04-10-12, 10:04

Been at it since 1970 and a 4 cylinder Jeep flathead 4x4 wagon. My current serious 4x4 is a stock '87 Toyota 22R. In summer I can get 26 MPG on the highway. It's not long on power but it's tough, reliable, and gets there. Sort of like a timex watch.

Also have a 6 cylinder '72 CJ-5, also stock, that I rebuilt. It only gets 15 MPG tops, and is a toy next to the pickup above.

I prefer revolvers and Toyotas; reliability is next to godliness.

C-grunt

04-10-12, 10:41

What do you mean by decent capability? What kind of stuff off road are you looking to do?

I'm not going to be rock climbing with it. Basically a good stock 4x4 vehicle like a Wrangler or Tacoma.

rob_s

04-10-12, 11:07

Kokopelli

04-10-12, 11:09

ST911

04-10-12, 11:19

Jeeps are capable right off the lot for most "off-roaders", and are easily modified if you need more capability. It's hard to go wrong with any of the Wrangler, Cherokee, or older models. Others in the brand are more refined, more expensive, and may or may not be as capable, depending on what you're doing.

None will get you 25mpg. The 2.5L 4 cylinder offers no mpg gain, but substantially less power. In Wranglers, mine have gotten 12-16. The 4.0L 6 cylinder can get you 20 on the highway if you're a good driver and drive for fuel economy, 16-18 is much more common. The newer 3.7 and 3.8s can norm at 19-20 on the highway. I've gotten 22 out of my JK with no wind and conservative highway driving. I don't have any experience with the newest motor (PentaStar?).

Cherokees in the 100k mile range can be found and are a great value. I drove my last XJ to ~220k miles with only minor service over its life. It would be hard to go wrong with a Cherokee in good condition.

Tire choice is critical. Crappy tires get crappy performance. Buy tires for your intended purpose. A mud tire is not a snow tire, and neither mud or snow tires are the best road tire.

During the last year, I shopped pretty deliberately for a pickup, and ended up with a Tacoma being at or near the top of my list(s). I'll defer to others on the particular merits and liabilities of that model, but they are highly regarded.

Kokopelli

04-10-12, 11:31

The Taco's are great, if you need a pickup.. The FJ will kick their butt on-road as well as off road. My Jeep TJ Rubicons (I had a 2003 and 2005) would handle off-roading well in stock form, on-roading was a different matter 8).. Ron

C-grunt

04-10-12, 12:39

rob_s

04-10-12, 12:43

Well I was talking with my buddy and he brought up a good point that I was apparently to stupid to realize. If I buy a used 4x4 for around 20k the savings in car payment over my 35k car would easily make up for the loss of MPG especially if I get one that is capable of getting 20 MPG.

ahem...

Can you go used to make up for the cost of the gas? I'm considering doing that myself by buying a 2001 Cherokee, getting the engine and trans rebuilt from the ground up, and with a vehicle that cost me <$10k I can afford to pay a little more on the gas mileage.

ST911

04-10-12, 14:36

ahem...

Apparently, you're not his buddy. :D

rob_s

04-10-12, 14:37

Apparently, you're not his buddy. :D

I'm no-budy. :eek:

C-grunt

04-10-12, 14:57

HaHa. I'm not sure how I missed that.

buckshot1220

04-10-12, 20:12

Can you go used to make up for the cost of the gas? I'm considering doing that myself by buying a 2001 Cherokee, getting the engine and trans rebuilt from the ground up, and with a vehicle that cost me <$10k I can afford to pay a little more on the gas mileage.

I have found several CHERRY 1999-2001 Cherokees in my area for ~$6k. One was a limited 4x4 with 110k miles on it (for the Cherokee that's just getting started). That would leave me $4k for rebuild and improvements (lift, tires) which I think is doable.

I currently own a 4x2 Tacoma quad-cab, and while I like the truck I drive like my ass is on fire and average only 17 mpg.

I know the FJ says it needs premium but if I had bought one (was about to choose that over the Tacoma when I bought) I would have fed it 87. I had an Escalade that also supposedly needed 93 and I fed it 87 for two years with zero ill effects.

agree with everyone else in general though, you're not going to find an offroad-capable vehicle getting 25 mpg.

A quick note on the Grand Cherokee. If you're buying one with 110k on it you probably won't need to rebuild the motor immediately. The old straight 6(assuming you're not buying a V8) is good for A LOT of miles. You may want to do the water pump and thermostat right away though as they can be problem areas.

As with most earlier Chrysler transmissions they leave a lot to be desired, so I can't blame you for wanting to do it up front and avoid a roadside breakdown.

Also, I can't remember the exact years it effected, but there is a TSB for Grand Cherokees equipped with the Dana 44 rear axle with ALUMINUM center section. Something about premature wear on the carrier bearings from what I can remember and requiring a rebuild early.

buckshot1220

04-10-12, 20:29

C-grunt

04-10-12, 20:46

I've got an '04 Wrangler Rubicon. It is the off road model so to speak and among several features comes with a low (4.11) axle ratio. Due to this, I struggle to keep my MPG in the mid 15's, oftentimes high 14's, 70/30 highway/city driving. It doesn't match much now, as I don't drive far to work, but I'm in the process of landing a new job that will require MUCHO driving.

I just started this thread as my interest is in switching to a Tacoma to try and get near 20mpg:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=102817

BTW, '06 and down Wranglers offer a rough ride. They were also not available with power windows/locks if it makes a difference in your decision. Capable off-road, however, amazing!

Yeah I know how they ride. I did a lot of four wheelin in highschool. My good friend grew up in a Jeep family. His parents had a 2000 Cherokee Freedom and a 99 Wrangler Sport. He owned a mid 90s Cherokee as well. We explored a lot of the north Phoenix valley in thos vehicles. His father still has the Wrangler as his daily driver at over 170k miles without any major maintenance required.

My boss has a 04 Wrangler straight 6 4x4 manual with 24k miles that he is thinking about selling for around 15k. I might try and figure out a way to snatch that thing up.

DeltaSierra

04-10-12, 21:40

Yeah I know how they ride. I did a lot of four wheelin in highschool. My good friend grew up in a Jeep family. His parents had a 2000 Cherokee Freedom and a 99 Wrangler Sport. He owned a mid 90s Cherokee as well. We explored a lot of the north Phoenix valley in thos vehicles. His father still has the Wrangler as his daily driver at over 170k miles without any major maintenance required.

My boss has a 04 Wrangler straight 6 4x4 manual with 24k miles that he is thinking about selling for around 15k. I might try and figure out a way to snatch that thing up.

If you are serious about getting a good rig, the 4Runner is one of your better options...

I don't mean to sound so biased, but I honestly can't say anything bad about the 4Runner - they are far superior to the XTerra or any of the Jeep family... The XTerra has a history of less-than-stellar performance, although Nissan may have improved it slightly in the last couple years.

An old neighbor of mine was really into off road sports, and he was consistently winning competitions against guys with the latest and greatest trucks, using old Tacos and 4Runners. There is a good reason so many of the serious off-roaders like the Toyotas - they last very well, and simply don't have as many issues as their competition.

SMETNA

04-10-12, 22:47

I have a 2011 Jeep Liberty. It has been outstanding. I ditched the stock minivan tires and got a set of Goodyear DuraTracs, and I've climbed very steep and muddy hills, and forded a 2'+ deep stream. No issues. It's been fantastic. Low-range, traction/stability control, hill descent control/hill start assist. The 3.7 has no balls, but it makes enough power and torque to climb hills or pass on the highway.

They are practically giving them away right now, because the Toledo factory is shutting down in aug to renovate for the 2014 liberty (which is going to suck ass; it's a front wheel drive based Rav4/ Escape competitor)
Mine was stickered at $26,800. I paid $22,000.

As a 50 miles per day driver, I have zero complaints. The mileage I get is about 17-18 mpg combined, which I can live with. If you really want a consistent 25+ mpg vehicle, look at some Subarus. In fact, they have a small hatchback with 8" of ground clearance coming out soon. I believe it's called the XV Crosstrek.

rob_s

04-11-12, 05:41

If you really want a consistent 25+ mpg vehicle, look at some Subarus. In fact, they have a small hatchback with 8" of ground clearance coming out soon. I believe it's called the XV Crosstrek.

That really isn't a bad option for a daily driver with some sure-footedness offroad. I think an Outback or a Forrester would be the best car for me, truthfully, but I also think I'd get lynched showing up to the jobsite or the range!
:eek:

Crosstek (http://www.insideline.com/subaru/xv-crosstrek/2013/2013-subaru-xv-crosstrek-2012-new-york-auto-show.html)

E-man930

04-11-12, 08:06

+1 for Toyota's FJ Cruiser - though I would only recommend the manual transmission version. (full time 4x4 with a 3 speed TC)
I get 18-19MPG after I installed larger tires and stiffer shocks / springs... Very versatile vehicle that is a dependable daily driver and extremely off road capable.

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/4222/fjc001.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/fjc001.jpg/)

MistWolf

04-11-12, 15:12

A quick note on the Cherokee. If you're buying one with 110k on it you probably won't need to rebuild the motor immediately. The old straight 6(assuming you're not buying a V8) is good for A LOT of miles. You may want to do the water pump and thermostat right away though as they can be problem areas.

As with most earlier Chrysler transmissions they leave a lot to be desired, so I can't blame you for wanting to do it up front and avoid a roadside breakdown.

Also, I can't remember the exact years it effected, but there is a TSB for Cherokees equipped with the Dana 44 rear axle with ALUMINUM center section. Something premature wear on the carrier bearings from what I can remember and requiring a rebuild early.

Actually, you are referring to the Grand Cherokee. Later Grand Cherokee models had the D44s with the aluminum center sections. The first ones had the same axles as the Cherokee, D30 front, D35 rear. The axles are the reason the V8 models had full time 4 wheel drive. 4.0 Grands had the option of a part time T-case.

The Cherokee (XJ) was never equipped with a V8. Up through 1986 the XJ could be had with a 4 cyl or a GM V6 with the V6 being rather problematic. In 1987, AMC replaced the V6 with the fuel injected 4.0 straight 6 based on the tried & true AMC 258. It's a heavy engine but almost impossible to break. The 4.0 could be had with either the very durable Aissin (sp?) 4 speed AW4 automatic or the Peugeot BA-10 5 speed manual which proved to be fragile. Around 1990, the BA-10 was replaced with the much superior AX-15. IN 1991, the 4.0 was upgraded to the 4.0 HO. Strangely, the new Wrangler continued with the carbureted 258 until the introduction of the 4.0 HO in 1991.

The Cherokee was the first vehicle to have it's chassis designed by CAD-CAM, technology provided by Peugeot. Resistance to torsional forces was greatly increased over previous designs, especially body-on-frame types. I know this for a fact from wheeling a Cherokee for years. When the frames of other vehicles would twist and threaten to cause tipping and rollovers, my Cherokee would remain flat and stable. (A well designed roll cage will stiffen a body-on-frame as well.)

A stock XJ with a 4.0 should easily average 20 mpg on the highway and all came with a 22 gallon tank. For some odd reason, some had some type of restrictor, limiting capacity to 13 gallons. I believe the restrictor is easily removed. I found the Cherokee to be one of the best off-road vehicles made. They are much roomier than the SWB Jeeps (CJs, Wranglers) have a stiff chassis, solid axles, bullet proof drive train if the BA-10 is avoided, light compared to other rigs, are very simple to work on and it's easy to install a lift. Downsides are the stock springs sack over time and the unibody design complicates body repairs after a roll-over.

Used Cherokees are easy to find for under $4,000 and chances are good the drivetrain will be solid even after 200k miles. 33 inch tires can be installed with a proper lift, some sheetmetal trimming and proper wheel backspacing. I ran 35s on mine with about 6" of lift and 4.56 gears. The D35 rear and D35 front are pushed to the limits with tires that big. Practical limit for the stock axles is about 31-32 inch tires. With a light throttle and minimizing tire spin off road, the stock axles can be made to survive until they can be upgraded or swapped. I installed better axles shafts in the front and replaced the D35 rear with a Ford 9 inch built for me by Currie

I found it to be cheaper to replace the worn factory springs with after market lift springs. 1-2 inches of lift with new control arms 31 inch tires is the most practical budget lift kit for the beginner wheeler. Add rocker protection and you'll have highly capable rig

But the reason I love Jeeps so much is they get the best parking spots
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Ah%20Souli%20Tribe/SpiderLakeII.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Ah%20Souli%20Tribe/GCAJeepII.jpg
Even the full-sized Jeeps
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Jeep/Beowolf.jpg

Kokopelli

04-11-12, 16:27

+1 for Toyota's FJ Cruiser - though I would only recommend the manual transmission version. (full time 4x4 with a 3 speed TC)
I get 18-19MPG after I installed larger tires and stiffer shocks / springs... Very versatile vehicle that is a dependable daily driver and extremely off road capable.

The auto version will actually outperform the manual in most all instances.. I've watched may traverse hells gate.. Cheers.. Ron

Javelin

04-11-12, 16:30

I'm still waiting on JEEP to get off the butts and put a Cummings in their Wrangler.

:(

ST911

04-11-12, 16:48

That really isn't a bad option for a daily driver with some sure-footedness offroad. I think an Outback or a Forrester would be the best car for me, truthfully, but I also think I'd get lynched showing up to the jobsite or the range!

Very viable alternative for the MPG-conscious on-road driver occasionally going to mild off-road conditions.

I'm still waiting on JEEP to get off the butts and put a Cummings in their Wrangler.:(

I keep hearing that small diesels are coming, but...

E-man930

04-11-12, 17:55

The auto version will actually outperform the manual in most all instances.. I've watched may traverse hells gate.. Cheers.. Ron

Never said the auto isn't capable of running over shit, the manual just has a better 4x4 system in it. If you don't understand this then drive on. I prefer my vehicles without self destructing assemblies in them.

Kokopelli

04-11-12, 18:11

Never said the auto isn't capable of running over shit, the manual just has a better 4x4 system in it. If you don't understand this then drive on. I prefer my vehicles without self destructing assemblies in them.

Depends on what you do my friend.. Full-time vs part-time.. I started driving Jeeps in 1969 and have rebuilt most every sort of 4X4.. My first was a 1948. I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with you on the FJ. On a Jeep possibly on the FJ no.. Cheers.. Ron

PS: A manual (full-time) Toyota has plenty of self destructing assemblies.. Possibly you don't understand.. Just saying

E-man930

04-11-12, 18:31

Yes Toyota builds a great slushbox, and yes my manual FJ has plenty of self destructing assemblies, but for my use I'll stick to the full time 4x4.

buckshot1220

04-11-12, 22:04

Actually, you are referring to the Grand Cherokee. Later Grand Cherokee models had the D44s with the aluminum center sections. The first ones had the same axles as the Cherokee, D30 front, D35 rear. The axles are the reason the V8 models had full time 4 wheel drive. 4.0 Grands had the option of a part time T-case.

The Cherokee (XJ) was never equipped with a V8. Up through 1986 the XJ could be had with a 4 cyl or a GM V6 with the V6 being rather problematic. In 1987, AMC replaced the V6 with the fuel injected 4.0 straight 6 based on the tried & true AMC 258. It's a heavy engine but almost impossible to break. The 4.0 could be had with either the very durable Aissin (sp?) 4 speed AW4 automatic or the Peugeot BA-10 5 speed manual which proved to be fragile. Around 1990, the BA-10 was replaced with the much superior AX-15. IN 1991, the 4.0 was upgraded to the 4.0 HO. Strangely, the new Wrangler continued with the carbureted 258 until the introduction of the 4.0 HO in 1991.

The Cherokee was the first vehicle to have it's chassis designed by CAD-CAM, technology provided by Peugeot. Resistance to torsional forces was greatly increased over previous designs, especially body-on-frame types. I know this for a fact from wheeling a Cherokee for years. When the frames of other vehicles would twist and threaten to cause tipping and rollovers, my Cherokee would remain flat and stable. (A well designed roll cage will stiffen a body-on-frame as well.)

A stock XJ with a 4.0 should easily average 20 mpg on the highway and all came with a 22 gallon tank. For some odd reason, some had some type of restrictor, limiting capacity to 13 gallons. I believe the restrictor is easily removed. I found the Cherokee to be one of the best off-road vehicles made. They are much roomier than the SWB Jeeps (CJs, Wranglers) have a stiff chassis, solid axles, bullet proof drive train if the BA-10 is avoided, light compared to other rigs, are very simple to work on and it's easy to install a lift. Downsides are the stock springs sack over time and the unibody design complicates body repairs after a roll-over.

Used Cherokees are easy to find for under $4,000 and chances are good the drivetrain will be solid even after 200k miles. 33 inch tires can be installed with a proper lift, some sheetmetal trimming and proper wheel backspacing. I ran 35s on mine with about 6" of lift and 4.56 gears. The D35 rear and D35 front are pushed to the limits with tires that big. Practical limit for the stock axles is about 31-32 inch tires. With a light throttle and minimizing tire spin off road, the stock axles can be made to survive until they can be upgraded or swapped. I installed better axles shafts in the front and replaced the D35 rear with a Ford 9 inch built for me by Currie

I found it to be cheaper to replace the worn factory springs with after market lift springs. 1-2 inches of lift with new control arms 31 inch tires is the most practical budget lift kit for the beginner wheeler. Add rocker protection and you'll have highly capable rig

But the reason I love Jeeps so much is they get the best parking spots
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Ah%20Souli%20Tribe/SpiderLakeII.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Ah%20Souli%20Tribe/GCAJeepII.jpg
Even the full-sized Jeeps
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Jeep/Beowolf.jpg

Yes, sorry I meant Grand Cherokee. Edited my post for clarification. Thanks.

ST911

04-11-12, 22:41

Yes, sorry I meant Grand Cherokee. Edited my post for clarification. Thanks.

Ref post #42... Please quote only the relevant text needed to make your point, and don't quote pictures.

wild_wild_wes

04-12-12, 00:53

After years of driving jeeps, I switched to a Toyota FJ in 2008 and never looked back. We do 5000+ mile roadtrips to run Ouray and Moab with the the FJ gang every summer and the stock FJ will go damn near anywhere. It's the best daily driver I've owned in 25 years as well. It'll get 23mpg cruising on the big road and 17-19mpg on the daily commute. I upgraded to a much heavier BFG (same size) when the factory tires wore out at 50,000 miles and lost 1-2 mpg on the daily commute. I think at speed on the big road it's about the same.. Ron

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii173/USPx4/FJ001.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii173/USPx4/FJ002.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii173/USPx4/FJ003.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii173/USPx4/FJ004.jpg

Best vehicle I ever owned.

MistWolf

04-12-12, 05:35

Maybe, but we're still gonna make fun of your parking spot!:haha:

munch520

04-12-12, 10:38

Test drove the FJ and loved it, but the doors were annoying and a friend that has one confirmed that he doesn't like em. And wishes he could take the top off.

I really like the re-designed (2011+) Wrangler interiors. Much more up to date, ipod integration, bluetooth, remote start, etc. All the creature comforts but still very offroad capable. And I get 21mpg hwy at 68MPH. :big_boss:

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/Jeep/a6ed4196.jpg

wild_wild_wes

04-12-12, 11:30

I researched the Wrangler, but heard negative things about build quality and longevity. Let's keep this thread going for 10 years, then compare!

The FJ has the reputation of being second only to the Wrangler in off-road capabilites, but far better in road performance. Mine is a great daily driver. The FJ is actually built by Hino Motors in Japan, which according to wiki "is a manufacturer of diesel trucks, buses, and other vehicles, based in Hino, Tokyo, Japan. Since 1973 the company has been the leading producer of medium and heavy-duty diesel trucks in Japan." So, the build quality of the FJ has a very high rep.

munch520

04-12-12, 11:43

wild_wild_wes

04-12-12, 12:04

Keep in mind what I know about your Wrangler, I gleaned off the error net. I accept your first-hand experience.

C-grunt

04-12-12, 13:41

Everyone that I know with an older Wrangler has said its very reliable. My friends father has a 99 Wrangler that has never had a major mechanical issue and is over 150k miles. I'm not sure I trust the new ones just because I don't trust the build quality of Chrysler at the moment. I have had two friends with newer Sebrings and they have been a disaster. Between the two cars there were two replaced engines and three transmissions. All within 100k miles.

But my father in law bought a new 4 door Wrangler for his wife and they haven't had any problems with it. It's a 4x2 and not off roaded at all though.

Reagans Rascals

04-12-12, 18:34

But my father in law bought a new 4 door Wrangler for his wife and they haven't had any problems with it. It's a 4x2 and not off roaded at all though.

I was honestly not even aware they sold 4x2 Wranglers.... literally pointless to buy... save the extra 3-4k and buy a 4WD.... just for the sake of having it... you lose nothing... but gain a lot

C-grunt

04-12-12, 18:48

I was honestly not even aware they sold 4x2 Wranglers.... literally pointless to buy... save the extra 3-4k and buy a 4WD.... just for the sake of having it... you lose nothing... but gain a lot

Yeah I agree however she wants it just for the looks. The only time that thing will go offroad is if she accidentally backs up into their front yard.

buckshot1220

04-13-12, 01:23

I was honestly not even aware they sold 4x2 Wranglers.... literally pointless to buy... save the extra 3-4k and buy a 4WD.... just for the sake of having it... you lose nothing... but gain a lot

My skin crawls when I think what the resale value of a 4x2 Wrangler must be like.

Reagans Rascals

04-13-12, 01:45

My skin crawls when I think what the resale value of a 4x2 Wrangler must be like.

They physically had to redesign a completely new front suspension, and eliminate the transfer case from the power train which creates the need for a different transmission, longer drive shaft and etc... in order to sell a Wrangler as a 4X2.... which means it actually takes more work to make one that's 2WD than it does to leave it the way it was originally designed...

it is beyond baffling...that it would even enter their minds.... how about instead of taking away things to attract a market base... you add things... like maybe a diesel engine... a factory snorkel/stack pipe combo... Unimog style portal axles.... factory ARB air lockers (not some weaker knock-off)... a better factory cage... things that would attract knowledgeable individuals in that would maybe be willing to spend the money on a vehicle built like that from the factory that comes with a warranty... as opposed to buying something used and investing the money to mod it themselves in the end with no warranty.... just my .002

wild_wild_wes

04-13-12, 09:28

it is beyond baffling...that it would even enter their minds....

I'm guessing it is for people who want one just for looks

munch520

04-13-12, 09:33

you add things... like maybe a diesel engine...

If Jeep would offer a turbo diesel or 4.7L Wrangler I'd sell a kidney to buy it. Preferably a diesel. As rugged as they are, a 3k tow limit is just stupid. So is nailing the throttle, feeling nothing, and hearing the flacid drone of the v6. :suicide2:

TacMedic556

04-13-12, 09:36

I have a 94 Toyota 4Runner that gets 18 mpg. The Generation 2 4runner made up to 1995 is a beast. RELIABLE. These are notorious for getting 300+k miles. Mine is at 201K now with no problems or rattles. Look for a 1992-1995, 5 speed with the V6. I think some had the 4 cylinder, which will get you better mileage but is weaker on steep grades. Best vehicle I have ever owned.

ICANHITHIMMAN

04-13-12, 09:47

Im jeep biased I suppose. I have an 02 grand cheroke it was my first American car. I got it with 32k on it. I had to put a wheel bearing/brake/4wd asemble in the front end after driving it 500 miles.
It need a transmission sensor at 100k

Replaced the shocks/brakes at 120k. Gave it a tune up at 150k. I need to do hood and rear door shocks soon. No other issues and I just turned 160k.

When I first got it the onboard computer said I was getting 26-29mpg on the highway. now im at between 19-23mpg.

I need to get it repainted as its starting to rust which is freeking awsome considering the amout of salt we use on the roads here. I am thinking of a cammo paint job and upgraded suspension.

Reagans Rascals

04-13-12, 11:13

http://www.bruiserconversions.com/jeep-diesel-conversion/

...Economy is a plus; in our tests, a correctly modified jeep unlimited can achieve 28 mpg around town and upwards of 30 mpg on the interstate. Depending on build sheet and modifications to engine as well as tire size and gear ratio. Average Unlimited with 37 inch tires and 3.73 to 1 ratio w/ 120 hip and 380 ft. of torque , with automatic Raptor 700r 4 speed over drive will achieve 26 to 27 mpg around town and 30 plus on highway @ 1600 rpms.

I mean come on.... Jesus....that's a 4 door Wrangler... with a 37" tires.. putting up those mpg numbers... how has Chrysler/Jeep not caught on to what the public wants..... we shouldn't have to spend an additional 25k after the initial purchase of the vehicle to get what we wanted in the first place....

Your off-road vehicle would outperform your daily driver...

Honu

04-13-12, 18:40

Suzuki samurai.

ditto or the earlier Grand Viagra :) or Grand Vitara as they are really known :) 1999-2003 models :) transfer case actual frame a actual 4x4 :)
both those can get decent mileage the Vitara can be found cheap also throw some OME suspension and tires and winch pretty good vehicle

not going to be a FJ or LC or Jeep but very capable
I used to have a Vitara in the islands and it did great its small size was nice
I drive a FJC these days also had a FJ40 a Samurai & Tacomas in various sizes etc.. quite a few off road rigs the best ever was the FJ40

I can say look at 3rd worlds you mostly see old Toyotas running around that tells ya something but Jeep or Land Rover or Toyota ? who cares bottom line is you like it and you have fun
for cheap a nice old jeep or a nice old Tacoma are both killer options depending on your off road wants ?

my off roading is about overlanding or expedition camping stuff

not a rock crawler and not a mud type either

link for ya to read and check out the forum from that link
http://www.expeditionportal.com/resources/91-guide/351-top-10-used-overland-vehicles.html
its basically the M4C of overlanding expedition type stuff
dont know the Jeep forums ?
www.ih8mud.com is another great Toyota and off road forum

a diesel would be killer :) cant wait for companies to offer them in the US !!!
to bad in the US you have to do conversions for the better rigs
Toyota has the killer Hilux and Diesel cruisers in other parts of the world a Jeep wrangler would be killer in diesel also :)

for newer cars the two best for off roading are the FJC and the Jeep Rubicon
both have pros and cons and both are great vehicles IMHO would be fun to have both ;)

skyugo

04-13-12, 18:56

What about a 4x4 Toyota Rav4 V6? It has the mileage but I'm not sure about the off roading.

my buddy had a RAV4... got about 24 mpg and it defintely went places that most people wouldn't expect it to be capable...

that said, ~20mpg is about where you're going to sit with most serious offroad trucks. lower when you start adding tires and lifts....

I get about 19 with my 1990 manual cherokee. it might break 20 on the highway...

the suzuki samurai is one option though... it goes anywhere and gets nearly 30 mpg. it's also scary at highway speeds and has no room for anything inside of it. hell of a little offroader though.

SMETNA

04-13-12, 20:23

the suzuki samurai is one option though... it goes anywhere and gets nearly 30 mpg. it's also scary at highway speeds and has no room for anything inside of it. hell of a little offroader though.

Look up the Top Gear (U.K) Bolivia Special.

It's on Netflix, might be on YouTube. They take an 80's range rover, an old toyota fj40, and a Suzuki samurai through the rain forest. It's awesome.

C-grunt

04-13-12, 21:30

Look up the Top Gear (U.K) Bolivia Special.

It's on Netflix, might be on YouTube. They take an 80's range rover, an old toyota fj40, and a Suzuki samurai through the rain forest. It's awesome.

Im a big Top Gear guy and have seen that episode at least 5 times.

Im really actually thinking about the Subaru Forester. Im a big Subaru fan and I think it offers pretty much everything I want. Its not a rock crawler but its AWD and has almost 9 inches of ground clearance with stock road tires. Plus in standard form, 2.5L 170 HP/TQ, it gets almost 30 MPG on the highway. Or I can get the XT model which uses the last gen WRX motor. That motor will make 300 HP and 400 TQ with just a tune and still get 25 MPG or more on the Highway.

To bad they are not bringing the deisel Forester to the US. That thing has over 250 pounds of TQ and gets 30 MPG city and 40 highway.

SMETNA

04-13-12, 21:49

^ that's a good all-rounder, a Subaru. They go forever too. If I didn't have a Jeep, I'd have . . . well . . . probably a pickup. But definitely a Subaru after those :D

Also: "I AM THE GOD OF HELLFIRE!!!!"

skyugo

04-14-12, 03:45

Look up the Top Gear (U.K) Bolivia Special.

It's on Netflix, might be on YouTube. They take an 80's range rover, an old toyota fj40, and a Suzuki samurai through the rain forest. It's awesome.

that was one of the things that got me hooked on top gear! Also that episode got me more into samurais.... that and watching two guys with samurais and 32" tires turn a mudpit that was swallowing everyone else's trucks into their personal playground... those little things just float over everything.

feedramp

04-15-12, 02:14

Honu

04-15-12, 04:06

This thread has been very educational for me, a 4x4 newb.

Interestingly, a spec'd out Tacoma is roughly the same price as an FJ (built and priced on Toyota's website).

Would assume the FJ is a little more capable offroad but perhaps the Tacoma is the better daily driver?

both are capable off road but yes the FJ more so
around town I think the FJ since its not a pickup and might be easier to park etc.. and IMHO SUV have a bit better handling more balanced weight ?
really both are fun rigs both capable and its more what one likes

rob_s

04-15-12, 04:28

I almost bought an FJ when I bought my Tacoma. Major reason I went Taco was because of the visibility in the rear, not so much in terms of not being able to see as the driver but because I've heard reports of people getting car sick riding back there without a clear view out of the car.

The Taco, other than the DC long-bed, is still stupid-easy to park and get around. SE FL is not truck friendly at all and I previously had a 1500 Chevy, F150, and Escalade and all were a bitch to park down here. The Taco is a dream to park, comparatively.

wild_wild_wes

04-15-12, 11:34

This thread has been very educational for me, a 4x4 newb.

Me too!

Along those lines, not to derail this thread, quick question:

I've heard it recommended that 4WDs be taken at least once a month and ran in 4X4 mode to lube up the gears. What distance/how long is a good enough to accomplish this?

Reagans Rascals

04-15-12, 11:54

Me too!

Along those lines, not to derail this thread, quick question:

I've heard it recommended that 4WDs be taken at least once a month and ran in 4X4 mode to lube up the gears. What distance/how long is a good enough to accomplish this?

I've never heard this before

what gears are you referring to? the transfer case is always in use regardless if it is in 4WD or not so therefore its always circulating lubricant... and most 4WD vehicles with the exception of ones running lock-out hubs in the front, have a front drive train that is always spinning even if it is not being powered, thus the ring and pinion is always circulating lubricant...

Kokopelli

04-15-12, 13:53

DTHN2LGS

04-15-12, 16:54

Im a big Top Gear guy and have seen that episode at least 5 times.

Im really actually thinking about the Subaru Forester. Im a big Subaru fan and I think it offers pretty much everything I want. Its not a rock crawler but its AWD and has almost 9 inches of ground clearance with stock road tires. Plus in standard form, 2.5L 170 HP/TQ, it gets almost 30 MPG on the highway. Or I can get the XT model which uses the last gen WRX motor. That motor will make 300 HP and 400 TQ with just a tune and still get 25 MPG or more on the Highway.

To bad they are not bringing the deisel Forester to the US. That thing has over 250 pounds of TQ and gets 30 MPG city and 40 highway.

That's exactly what I'm shopping for right now too. My Chevy Silverado 1500 extended cab 4 x 4 with 8 foot box is going bye-bye, and I want to get something with better mileage now. Parking has always been a pain in the ass with it too.

I'm going to skip the turbo though, I don't want to lose my driver's license. :sarcastic:

.

buckshot1220

04-15-12, 19:00

I've never heard this before

what gears are you referring to? the transfer case is always in use regardless if it is in 4WD or not so therefore its always circulating lubricant... and most 4WD vehicles with the exception of ones running lock-out hubs in the front, have a front drive train that is always spinning even if it is not being powered, thus the ring and pinion is always circulating lubricant...

Like he said, unless it has manual locking hubs all of your 4WD system will be getting lubed even when not engaged in 4WD.

On a side note, I engage my 4WD every so often simply to keep the linkage arms moving so that road salt and rust can't build up and leave you stuck with only 2WD at an inopportune time. If you have a system that is engaged by electric servos I would do the same just to be sure everything is in order and moisture didn't get to the servo.

SMETNA

04-15-12, 19:36

Toyota says 20 miles per month (in the manual).. Ron

I believe this, even if it's just superstition.

On the Jeep I make sure to put it into 4hi and 4lo once every three months or so (if I haven't been wheeling in a while, that is)

Idk, I just feel good about everything rotating and splashing gear oil around in the diffs/ transfer case. Probably has no basis in reality, but who cares.

ETA:

It's funny how Subaru has developed a rep for being a hippie car. They're fantastic vehicles; I'd love to see more of them with "don't tread on me" decals on the bumpers!

Subaru and Volvo wagons . . . Hippies love that shit

C-grunt

04-16-12, 16:51

It's funny how Subaru has developed a rep for being a hippie car. They're fantastic vehicles; I'd love to see more of them with "don't tread on me" decals on the bumpers!

Depends on which car in their lineup. Come to Phoenix and show up at a Subaru meet and it will most likely be crowded with WRXs and a few Foresters. Several of the drivers will be packing and many of the drivers are active military or veterans.

Eurodriver

04-16-12, 18:49

http://i41.tinypic.com/wgyoth.jpg

Had a great day wheeling in the Benz yesterday - even got a video. I get 25 mpg on the highway.

feedramp

04-16-12, 19:32

If you drive a Benz, it should be mandated that you dress in a suit and run H&K rifles and S&B optics. :P

DTHN2LGS

04-16-12, 21:07

It's funny how Subaru has developed a rep for being a hippie car. They're fantastic vehicles; I'd love to see more of them with "don't tread on me" decals on the bumpers!

Subaru and Volvo wagons . . . Hippies love that shit

No problem, I'll put one on mine after I get it tomorrow! :thank_you2:

buckshot1220

04-16-12, 21:54

I would recommend a Subaru to anyone in the market for a year-round (read inclement weather) vehicle that is both comfortable and reliable. I had a WRX with a ton of work (just north of 330hp, suspension and brake work) that I owned for six years and 120k miles and it never once left me stranded or in need of major repair. In fact, the only true repair I did was a left lower ball joint (courtesy of my community's speed bumps), everything else was maintenance (timing belt, cooling flushes, gear oil changes, spark plugs etc.).

Honestly, when I first starting modding it and driving it hard I thought for sure I'd have to replace engine and clutch long before hitting 100k, but even with an extra 100hp over stock at the flywheel it never missed a beat and the kid I sold it to is driving it with the original engine (though he "learned" how to drive stick on that car and smoked the clutch just a few months after getting it).

Someone mentioned getting a non-turbo forester or something, but they have very little power. The turbo engine in something the size of a Forester is about perfect, easy merging, easy going uphill, fast enough to keep you interested, mild enough to keep you from going Top Gear around the neighborhood.

LowSpeed_HighDrag

04-16-12, 23:55

I grew up in Northern Colorado, right at the foothills of the rockies, so 4 wheeling was in my blood from the beginning. I started with a 93 Dakota V8 4x4, got stuck everywhere and got horrible MPG. I then bought a brand new 06 Wrangler SE 2.4l and beat the living hell out if it. I got the smaller engine to save on gas, but it ended costing me more gas (13-16MPG) since you have to push it harder and harder in order to maintain the same speed as everyone else. I had 31" MT Bajas and that was about it as far as mods go, and yet I was still able to keep up with the big boys when wheeling. I water logged the diffs, smoked the clutch, smashed my power steering box, bent a stabilizer arm, and generally beat it to shit and yet it still kept on running. I sold it when I came out to Cali and stopped 4 wheeling, and still got 7000 for it in a trade even with it being nearly destroyed. If I could do it all over again (and I just might) I would get a JK Rubicon, a 2" lift, and some 33" tires, and then regear for the best MPG/Power mix. The Wrangler's in 4 Low are some of the most impressive vehicles out there, but on the road they suck.

Ive looked into getting an FJ, and it just feels way too boxed up inside for me. Maybe Im crazy...

I agree with Honu on the Diesel vehicles. Having been all over the world and seen the Hilux do some pretty amazing things, Ive been converted! I think the Hilux or a Diesel Wrangler would clean up over here.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/IMGP1932.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/IMGP1944.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/IMGP1913.jpg

SMETNA

04-18-12, 01:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nd4t6PduOs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Subaru beats the pants off other smaller fuel-efficient "4x4s"

Honu

04-18-12, 05:07

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nd4t6PduOs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Subaru beats the pants off other smaller fuel-efficient "4x4s"

that's cause none of those are 4x4s :) they are limited slip mall getter cars

yeah Subaru makes a good traction vehicle for sure so does Audi so does BMW

would love to see Jeep or Toyota make a fun course and show how Subaru cant make it and its not a real 4x4 :) hehehehe

The_War_Wagon

04-18-12, 07:45

You can off-road... OR you can get MPG... I'm not aware of the ability to get both. Of course, my 4x4's have been;

- '79 Ford Bronco
- '92 Dodge Ramcharger
- '07 Jeep Commander

The engines keep getting smaller (351M, 318, 287), but the mileage stays the same. :o

sjc3081

04-18-12, 07:56

I think the question has been answered. The answer is the Toyota Tacoma the world recognized best quality most reliable mid sized 4x4 on the planet.

rob_s

04-18-12, 07:58

would love to see Jeep or Toyota make a fun course and show how Subaru cant make it and its not a real 4x4 :) hehehehe

or Subaru make a rally course and show how they lap the Toyotas and Jeeps.
:p

Reagans Rascals

04-18-12, 08:26

or Subaru make a rally course and show how they lap the Toyotas and Jeeps.
:p

when a Subaru rally resembles anything like MOAB, Top Truck, or the Breslau Rallye... I'll concede defeat and call Subaru's a legit 4x4... until then... IMO... they are enhanced traction all weather daily drivers.... essentially the little brother to the Astro Van.....

IMO the Op really isn't looking for a Subaru... as the type of wheeling I believe he is discussing is well outside the lane of a car with less than 31" tires and no solid axles....

Subaru's are tough and extremely capable I'll give them that... but they won't be able to handle ruts deeper than 10", or larger obstacles such as logs, limbs, rocks or ditches... its not because they aren't tough enough... its because they don't have the ground clearance or the fender clearance to run larger tires to get the ground clearance

rob_s

04-18-12, 09:02

when a Subaru rally resembles anything like MOAB, Top Truck, or the Breslau Rallye... I'll concede defeat and call Subaru's a legit 4x4... until then... IMO... they are enhanced traction all weather daily drivers.... essentially the little brother to the Astro Van.....

IMO the Op really isn't looking for a Subaru... as the type of wheeling I believe he is discussing is well outside the lane of a car with less than 31" tires and no solid axles....

Subaru's are tough and extremely capable I'll give them that... but they won't be able to handle ruts deeper than 10", or larger obstacles such as logs, limbs, rocks or ditches... its not because they aren't tough enough... its because they don't have the ground clearance or the fender clearance to run larger tires to get the ground clearance

I'm not going to turn this into some kind of penis argument, I don't even own a Subaru, but I was simply replying humorously to someone else. He posted about seeing the Subaru perform in the Jeep's home turf so I just turned the tables.

Interesting to note that the OP has, in fact, expressed interest in the Subarus, in spite of all the off-road dick-measuring going on in this thread. I don't think he was ever really looking for MOAB-type performance anyway, which is why I brought the Subarus into the discussion.

Now all you offroad studs can go back to arguing about transmissions and other pointless shit.

Nathan_Bell

04-18-12, 09:41

This comment was made by the same rob_s who made "the Chart"? Gotta love the irony.

I'm not going to turn this into some kind of penis argument, I don't even own a Subaru, but I was simply replying humorously to someone else. He posted about seeing the Subaru perform in the Jeep's home turf so I just turned the tables.

Interesting to note that the OP has, in fact, expressed interest in the Subarus, in spite of all the off-road dick-measuring going on in this thread. I don't think he was ever really looking for MOAB-type performance anyway, which is why I brought the Subarus into the discussion.

Now all you offroad studs can go back to arguing about transmissions and other pointless shit.

munch520

04-18-12, 09:51

Interesting to note that the OP has, in fact, expressed interest in the Subarus, in spite of all the off-road dick-measuring going on in this thread. I don't think he was ever really looking for MOAB-type performance anyway, which is why I brought the Subarus into the discussion.

[B]Now all you offroad studs can go back to arguing about transmissions and other pointless shit.[/I]

You don't own one? Sounds like you at least own stock...

Transmissions, gearing (especially when running 35s/37s), solid axles, locking diffs, etc. is anything but pointless in this world. This 'pointless shit' is what separates a stock Wrangler sport and a stock Wrangler Rubi. Truly a night/day difference offroad.

This comment was made by the same rob_s who made "the Chart"? Gotta love the irony.

I wish there was a 'BURN' emoticon :)

Eurodriver

04-18-12, 10:16

If you drive a Benz, it should be mandated that you dress in a suit and run H&K rifles and S&B optics. :P

Unfortunately, its only a C-Class so I can't partake in either.

Nathan_Bell

04-18-12, 10:23

Unfortunately, its only a C-Class so I can't partake in either.

All of mine are 10+ YO and my H&K is 20+ :big_boss:

munch520

04-18-12, 10:23

Unfortunately, its only a C-Class so I can't partake in either.

Neighbor has a C63 AMG. Love listening to that thing drive off.

wild_wild_wes

04-18-12, 10:33

I think the question has been answered. The answer is the Toyota Tacoma the world recognized best quality most reliable mid sized 4x4 on the planet.

I could be mistaken, but that would actually be the Hilux, and not the Tacoma.

Eurodriver

04-18-12, 10:35

Neighbor has a C63 AMG. Love listening to that thing drive off.

Yeah, but does he take it offroad? :jester:

feedramp

04-18-12, 10:37

That 6.2L AMG-tuned block sounds so dirty. Love it.

This comment was made by the same rob_s who made "the Chart"? Gotta love the irony.
http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/images/smilies/clap.gif
Well played, sir. Well played.

munch520

04-18-12, 10:54

Yeah, but does he take it offroad? :jester:

No. But he has an old lifted Branco 2dr that is an absolute tank. Dude also had a Formula 400SS with twin 496s (I think), sounded better than the Benz. Cool story, he had 3 kids and had almost 100k for each set aside for school. Then they all got full rides :) must be nice!

Reagans Rascals

04-18-12, 11:03

I'm not going to turn this into some kind of penis argument, I don't even own a Subaru, but I was simply replying humorously to someone else. He posted about seeing the Subaru perform in the Jeep's home turf so I just turned the tables.

Interesting to note that the OP has, in fact, expressed interest in the Subarus, in spite of all the off-road dick-measuring going on in this thread. I don't think he was ever really looking for MOAB-type performance anyway, which is why I brought the Subarus into the discussion.

Now all you offroad studs can go back to arguing about transmissions and other pointless shit.

I don't ever really remember any bravado or dick-measuring entering the conversation.... what I do remember... is sound advice recommending basic essentials for off-road performance that will get him through the shit and back

don't get butt hurt because those in the know choose shit that actually works like solid axles, lower gears, locking diffs, suspension lifts, larger tires, diesel engines and beefier transmissions...

and since you made a point of bringing up penis measuring twice, within the same paragraph... I clearly sense a little insecurity

LowSpeed_HighDrag

04-18-12, 13:01

This comment was made by the same rob_s who made "the Chart"? Gotta love the irony.

My thoughts exactly...

SMETNA

04-18-12, 20:08

. . . . . like solid axles, lower gears, locking diffs, suspension lifts, larger tires, diesel engines and beefier transmissions...

For a daily driver? For a more fuel efficient choice with *some* capability? No.

No.

The OP wanted a jack of all trades. Not a built for purpose MOAB /Mudding rig. A stock Tacoma would be about as hardcore as would be wise for that use.

You guys . . .

That's like someone saying they're in the market for a fast family car with good power, and recommending them this:

http://dayerses.com/data_images/posts/caterham-superlight-r500/caterham-superlight-r500-07.jpg

munch520

04-18-12, 20:22

For a daily driver? For a more fuel efficient choice with *some* capability? No.

No.

The OP wanted a jack of all trades. Not a built for purpose MOAB /Mudding rig.

You guys . . .

And who are you to comment on it? I have a Wrangler Rubi with 4.10 gears, solid axles, lockers, and sway disconnect. It's my DD and gets 21mpg highway with that gearing and BFG KM2s. I'd say that meets the OPs criteria...fuel efficient and more than 'capable'.

Eta: oh yea it has 4 doors, seats 5, and has more rear cargo room than a grand Cherokee. Not to mention it comes with all the features a DD should have, Bluetooth, Sirius, voice command, infinity 7-speaker sound system+sub., remote start, etc.

C-grunt

04-18-12, 21:08

Honu

04-19-12, 04:01

or Subaru make a rally course and show how they lap the Toyotas and Jeeps.
:p

yup :)
then the Baja and flip the coin again :) hehehehe

as I say have one for everything :)

I do think its funny when one company or something tries to show off why theirs are so much better :) but pics who they choose to compare against :)

Honu

04-19-12, 04:02

This comment was made by the same rob_s who made "the Chart"? Gotta love the irony.

hahahah so true :)

Honu

04-19-12, 04:08

on another forum some are talking about this
http://subaru.com.au/newxv

gets its coming here ?

in that thread some are saying stay away from the 2.5 engine they made ? not a subaru guy but interesting chatter that some say Subaru is not the cars they were a few years back ? again I dont know just repeating :)

I love all kinds of cars not just trucks ;)
when I moved here I left on Maui a nice BMW convertible a nice Porsche and a suzuki Grand Vitara which replaced our Toyota Tacoma when I landed here I picked up a MB S class which I got rid of and now have my Toyota FJC
now looking for another rig to add and might be a Toyota 4Runner ? or a nice LC 100 series ?
but part of me also wants something that gets better mileage ? and is a traction type 4x4
Subaru maybe a X3 or ?? kinda tired of driving 12-14MPG rig every day

MistWolf

04-19-12, 06:01

I really miss my 06 WRX. Such a great and fast car. That's one of the reasons I'm looking at the Forester.

I am looking for a DD that has some off roading capability. I'm not wanting a rock crawler. The Forester or stock 4x4 Tacoma will meet my needs. Right now if I get an "off roading" type car I'm really leaning towards the Forester. If not its a new WRX or used STi.

If the Forester has AWD, that means the T case does not have a low range. Not having a low range limits your control in off-road conditions. I'm not talking about serious rock crawling, just simple everyday driving in the dirt to get to our favorite primitive campsite, fishing hole or simply seeing where this trail goes kind of stuff. I've been in situations where being stuck in 4 Hi resulted in a hair raising loss of control that would not have occurred in low range

The_War_Wagon

04-19-12, 07:40

or Subaru make a rally course and show how they lap the Toyotas and Jeeps.
:p

Any PROPER 4x4, should be lifted enough to CRUSH a Lesbaru. :D That's the goal I'm working towards with my Commander now. The Bronco & Ramcharger both would've crushed Lebarus handily. :cool:

Bolt_Overide

04-19-12, 08:13

only if I'm dumb enough to sit there and let you, at 450 AWHP you couldn't possibly run over what you cant catch.

munch520

04-19-12, 08:32

Who has a 450whp subi?! Post pics I'd love to see it. Shoot, even stock STIs run around 215 wheel, don't they?

And that's obviously out of the 'daily driver' category :) . Gt35, external gate, software, full exhaust, top end work (at least), transmission, suspension, brakes, preferably water-meth injection, wideband AF/oil temp/boost/FIT, etc. I had the same setup, with a bit smaller hair dryer. Fun as hell and with AWD lightning fast out of the gate, but no matter how good the parts/mechanic...it's never 100% reliable. You can't pull with that torque curve without wearing out/breaking something. But totally worth it, spooling and wastegate flutter (even tho no one likes compressor surge) are two of my favorite sounds.

Reagans Rascals

04-19-12, 09:25

And who are you to comment on it? I have a Wrangler Rubi with 4.10 gears, solid axles, lockers, and sway disconnect. It's my DD and gets 21mpg highway with that gearing and BFG KM2s. I'd say that meets the OPs criteria...fuel efficient and more than 'capable'.

Eta: oh yea it has 4 doors, seats 5, and has more rear cargo room than a grand Cherokee. Not to mention it comes with all the features a DD should have, Bluetooth, Sirius, voice command, infinity 7-speaker sound system+sub., remote start, etc.

bingo.....

I am in the process of swapping a 4bt into my 4 door JK... when all is said and done I will be getting close to 30 mpg hwy... with 39" IROKS, Dana 60's with ARB's and 4.88 gears.... at 70 mph on the hwy... I am running 2 tanks with a 40 gallon capacity total... which means I'll be getting close to 1200 miles between fill ups....

This is my BOV... considering I could drive from here to Alaska on 3 fill ups.... and tackle any obstacle in my way.

I have no idea where the fallacy came from that if you want fuel economy you have ditch all of the other necessary off-road equipment...

It seems like those that really don't know the capability of some off-road rigs just say oh it can't do Y so I'll just settle for X... when if you really took the time to learn everything you can about it... you can really turn the tables with inexpensive mods... My entire 4bt swap is going to run me less than 7k as I am doing all the fab myself.... more than worth it for the increased mileage, monster amounts of torque, and the ability to completely submerge the engine with no issues... in my opinion

so with that being said... If the OP were to purchase a used JK for lets say 18-20k... and completely overhaul it... axles, diffs, suspension, tires, and drive train with a 4bt... he would be looking at 32-35k tops for the entire package.... a package much much much more capable than a Subaru or Tacoma will ever think about being... basically a tank with the mpg of a Jetta... which is what everyone is looking for

not to mention it will run on Waste Motor Oil and Waste Veggie Oil.... basically free gas...

munch520

04-19-12, 09:42

Dang! What made you decide on that over a CRD or 3.xT? I'll do this when my JKs paid off. Is there a 'go to' shop to get this done, as it's over my head.

Reagans Rascals

04-19-12, 09:58

Dang! What made you decide on that over a CRD or 3.xT? I'll do this when my JKs paid off. Is there a 'go to' shop to get this done, as it's over my head.

Had a great source for a really really cheap 4bt out of an old box truck... tore it down but it was good to go... so I cleaned it up and had originally planned to use it a M715 project... but the JK was calling my name...

Its honestly not too involved... there are companies that do it but they charge out of the ass... there are a few that offer all of the different components you would need to do it yourself... even the wiring and sensors to allow you factory gauges to work

http://www.jdjeeps.com/

once you have all of the parts rounded up... it's literally just putting it all in and bolting it up... its not a difficult job like creating your own mounts or wiring harnesses...

this place does their own conversions but they charge something like 25k IIRC.... I myself will do the work and save 18k....
http://www.bruiserconversions.com/

I'd suggest just going to the junk yard and looking around for an older 4bt.. spend a grand and get it rebuilt... and then just buy the components and do the swap yourself.... you may even get away with doing it for less than 7k depending on where you source the engine....

mine is a little more expensive because of the other things I'm utilizing as well... like an NV4500 manual tranny and a Stak Monster Box 3 speed T-case... if you use your stock T-case and just get a cheap TH400 tranny for like $800 you should do pretty well...

once you are done you can source Waste Motor Oil from places like Midas and Waste Veggie Oil from fast food places and you'll have all the free fuel you could ever want... you'll lose about 11% mpg but its free so who cares.....

I've spent a really long time looking into it...
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?15768-4BT-Conversion-Parts-for-a-Jeep-Wrangler-TJ
http://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52318&page=8
http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/89-93-powertrain/483481-running-used-motor-oil-part-2-a.html

I've seriously looked into getting a set of Axle Tech Portals as well... multiplies drive train torque by 1.5 at the wheel and gives an extra 5" of ground clearance so I could actually come down in tire size and keep the same clearance... thus lowering tire weight and giving me even better mpg... but they aren't good for hwy use and since this is my daily driver I'll probably pass...
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Axeltech-Bolt-On-Dana-60-Portal-Conversion-Kit-p-20131.html

E-man930

04-19-12, 10:00

Damn it guys this is for off-roading 4x4s, not on-roading!
But if you guys insist on adding Subaru into the mix then you should look at the grown up version, Audi. Audi introduced the Quattro 4x4 system in 1980 with the unveiling of the UR-Quattro that eventually led to the development of Audi's rally program and domination of rally racing with the Quattro S1 before pulling out in the late eighties. My first car was a '87 Audi 4000 CS Quattro that I worked my ass off to buy for $3000 from the original owners, who gave it to their daughter until she was out of college, which she then sold to me. It's 10V 5 cylinder engine pumped out a whopping 115HP which is good because it kept me out of trouble. Later at a local foreign auto parts store (where I would buy my filters from) I me the owner's son that owned a 1985 UR-Quattro with a transplanted 20V 2.2 turbocharged RS engine that ran a K27 and put out 400HP... He gave me one hell of a scary ride around the block in it while it was pouring down rain and thus ruining me from ever owning anything but turbo cars (besides trucks) from then on. :rolleyes: A year or so later, my parents were not too happy when I sold the Quattro and came home to find a 944 turbo in the driveway.

Here is the wife's road sled. (yes it's chipped and sports a bigger BOV - only 255HP but it has a walloping 333 ft/lb of TQ, and gets over 30MPG, and has a 6spd manual gearbox she enjoys every day)
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7873/a4dealer004.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/98/a4dealer004.jpg/)

Now can we get back to talking about FJs, Tacos, Wranglers and perhaps the D90?

To answer munch520 - It's the wife's, APR, no codes, and the valve recirculates the air.

munch520

04-19-12, 11:10

Sick ride eman! What software, GIAC, REVO, APR? Does it throw codes with the BOV? I've never seen an Audi/VW that doesn't hate atmospheric venting. I always had success, even with BT builds, with diverter valves. Forge...piston style not the crappy stock rubber diaphragm.

Side note, Audis Quattro is amazing. My Dad's A6 2.7 with K04 conversion still does as good, if not better, than the wrangler in the snow/ice on the road. Quattro with Haldex controllers, are the shit!

C-grunt

04-19-12, 14:16

And who are you to comment on it? I have a Wrangler Rubi with 4.10 gears, solid axles, lockers, and sway disconnect. It's my DD and gets 21mpg highway with that gearing and BFG KM2s. I'd say that meets the OPs criteria...fuel efficient and more than 'capable'.

Eta: oh yea it has 4 doors, seats 5, and has more rear cargo room than a grand Cherokee. Not to mention it comes with all the features a DD should have, Bluetooth, Sirius, voice command, infinity 7-speaker sound system+sub., remote start, etc.

Who has a 450whp subi?! Post pics I'd love to see it. Shoot, even stock STIs run around 215 wheel, don't they?

And that's obviously out of the 'daily driver' category :) . Gt35, external gate, software, full exhaust, top end work (at least), transmission, suspension, brakes, preferably water-meth injection, wideband AF/oil temp/boost/FIT, etc. I had the same setup, with a bit smaller hair dryer. Fun as hell and with AWD lightning fast out of the gate, but no matter how good the parts/mechanic...it's never 100% reliable. You can't pull with that torque curve without wearing out/breaking something. But totally worth it, spooling and wastegate flutter (even tho no one likes compressor surge) are two of my favorite sounds.

Here is my buddies website. His 03 makes around 450 whp and made about 500 whp before he dialed it down for road racing. Back when he was drag racing it did low 11s. he is a big circuit racer and his car has been in several magazines.

http://www.snailperformance.com/

C-grunt

04-19-12, 20:16

Okay change of plans. If I go with a off roader instead of a sports car its gonna be either a Tacoma or a Xterra.

Nathan_Bell

04-19-12, 20:49

Okay change of plans. If I go with a off roader instead of a sports car its gonna be either a Tacoma or a Xterra.

If you decide to say hell with all creature comforts, you can always go this route -)

http://www.unimog.net/exchange/

DeltaSierra

04-20-12, 00:02

Okay change of plans. If I go with a off roader instead of a sports car its gonna be either a Tacoma or a Xterra.

Taco all the way then...

Honu

04-20-12, 00:33

If you decide to say hell with all creature comforts, you can always go this route -)

http://www.unimog.net/exchange/

I love mogs :) for sure cool rigs

I want a volvo TGB13 though :) full body kind so I can make it into a cool camping rig
nice thing about the C-304 or TGB13 screw the 4x4 crap when you can have a 6x6 :) no getting high centered ever again !!!

like some of the Pinz guys say make sure you have a good loud stereo or headphones when you drive any distance :) and make sure you dont need air conditioning and dont mind sitting next to a hot engine box etc....

Honu

04-20-12, 00:42

Okay change of plans. If I go with a off roader instead of a sports car its gonna be either a Tacoma or a Xterra.

I would take a 4Runner over a Xterra ? so to me sounds like you should get a Tacoma :)

feedramp

04-20-12, 02:29

Nathan_Bell

04-20-12, 08:03

Rebuilding my 1250 'mog and sound control is a major part of my interior material list.

As for the Volvo, that is where you can use a Comtac headset for its original intent. Intercom in a LOUD environment.

I love mogs :) for sure cool rigs

I want a volvo TGB13 though :) full body kind so I can make it into a cool camping rig
nice thing about the C-304 or TGB13 screw the 4x4 crap when you can have a 6x6 :) no getting high centered ever again !!!

like some of the Pinz guys say make sure you have a good loud stereo or headphones when you drive any distance :) and make sure you dont need air conditioning and dont mind sitting next to a hot engine box etc....

E-man930

04-20-12, 12:23

I'd probably never buy an Audi. Every time I've come close, they were always the least bang for the buck of whatever group of cars were in consideration, and the owners I know generally confirm they spend too much time in the shop, which is a trait they get from VW. They often look very nice, though.

Well it's out 5th Audi, never had any issues with any of them... and we drive the shit out of them. Although we are car people, so we double check the dealers work, even on routine maintenance. This means that when the new oil change kid forgets to replace the oil filter with a new one and the service manager hands us the car back I notice it leaking oil under it's aeropan and refuse the car until they fix the cluster they created. We don't just get in and start driving until the "tea kettle" light comes on and then blame the lunched engine on Audi... And yes that really happened, ours was # 4 or 5 for the day that the dealer 's oil change moron did this to, blaming it on someone else. The service manager answered his cell and I overheard the lady on the other end; she was asking what it means when the tea kettle light is on and if it was OK to keep driving... We were the only folks to ask why the **** is there an oil trail out of the service bays all the way to the parking spot. So to each his own but more often times than not when I hear "my Mercedes / BMW / Audi / VW / Porsche was always at the dealer" it translates to I'm not a car person and blindly trust the dealer and their "experts" and am not qualified enough to know that it's not the car's fault.

Nathan - why did you share the unimog link here... now I'm all messed up in the head browsing the classifieds. Are you trying to get me kicked out of my house? :D

Honu

04-20-12, 18:15

Rebuilding my 1250 'mog and sound control is a major part of my interior material list.

As for the Volvo, that is where you can use a Comtac headset for its original intent. Intercom in a LOUD environment.

hahahahah
yeah that would be a good headset com setup :) can see the wife loving that one ;)

I think I have to do it like I did when I got the 3 series convertible ;)

NO HONEY I PROMISE THE BABY SEAT WILL FIT !!!!

and then when it did not ;) she took the car over :(

so when I get one my plan will be no they are not that loud :) hehehheh

rjacobs

04-21-12, 20:21

I have been going back and forth between a Tacoma 4x4 and a Wrangler. I couldnt find a Tacoma around me that was what I wanted(extended cab, 6cyl, 5spd) for what I wanted to pay(under $10k). I am sure they are great trucks, but I am not paying $10k-$12k for a 00-02 Tacoma 4x4 with 150k+ miles on it. I mean the trucks werent to much more than that new I dont think. I bought a Wrangler.

I just picked up an 02 Wrangler with 110k miles for $8500. 4.0, 5speed. Needs a clutch($150), F&R pinion seals($20), u joints in the drive shafts($100), fluid changes(F&R diff, engine, trans, transfer case, radiator, brake, clutch-$200), serpentine belt($40), spark plugs($20) and probably toss a new battery in it for good measure. Then I will move on to the mods once the mechanical/peace of mind stuff is done.

feedramp

04-21-12, 21:42

Well it's out 5th Audi, never had any issues with any of them... and we drive the shit out of them. Although we are car people, so we double check the dealers work, even on routine maintenance. This means that when the new oil change kid forgets to replace the oil filter with a new one and the service manager hands us the car back I notice it leaking oil under it's aeropan and refuse the car until they fix the cluster they created. We don't just get in and start driving until the "tea kettle" light comes on and then blame the lunched engine on Audi... And yes that really happened, ours was # 4 or 5 for the day that the dealer 's oil change moron did this to, blaming it on someone else. The service manager answered his cell and I overheard the lady on the other end; she was asking what it means when the tea kettle light is on and if it was OK to keep driving... We were the only folks to ask why the **** is there an oil trail out of the service bays all the way to the parking spot. So to each his own but more often times than not when I hear "my Mercedes / BMW / Audi / VW / Porsche was always at the dealer" it translates to I'm not a car person and blindly trust the dealer and their "experts" and am not qualified enough to know that it's not the car's fault.

That may well be the case in many instances, and I'm glad you've had such a good experience with Audis, but what I've read and heard most often relates to electronic gremlins not unlike their VW brethren.

I came very close to a B5 S4 back in the day though, and an A3 at one time, and more recently an S5. Maybe next time the stars... er rings will align. =)