5.45x39 AR15 as a primary rifle

[Will545]

I'm looking to buy my first ar15. The thing is I don't currently own any other 223/5.56 rifles. I do however have two ak74's and a ton of 5.45x39. I'm strongly considering getting a s&w 5.45 upper to keep ammo commonality. I just can't see the point of buying 223/5.56 when its so similar to the 5.45 which I already have. So with all that said, is an ar15 in 5.45 something that you feel is reliable enough to be a primary rifle? If I go through with this and end up liking the AR better than the AK I would want to make it my primary rifle. Any input would be appreciated, thanks.

[tony413]

go for it the pro's at this point in time out weight the con's.

[Reagans Rascals]

I'd even go one step further and look into getting a system like the MGI Hydra... with modular mag well that can be swapped out... and then have the ability to run the same mags across the board....


they do offer the AK74 mag well... so you could run the same mags in both your AK and AR....

if you so choose to run 5.56 later on... you can use the same lower, swap uppers and the mag well and you're good to go...

https://www.mgi-military.com/store/index.php?product_id=29&type=&category=9

[oef24]

I agree and say go for it. Ammo commonality makes perfect sense given that you have 2 AK-74's. I don't forsee any AR replacing my AK's as primary but that is a personal choice. I suggest you read through the extensive 5.45 AR thread on here and digest the information. There are very good pointers on there from mags and mag mods to springs, maintenance, wear, corrosion and barrel life. Once you have the rifle dialed in the way you want it and it is performing as it should, there is no reason why you couldn't make it your primary. My first suggestion would be to purchase a bunch of mags as they are and will be the weakest link in the system. Mark them to keep track of their performance. Good luck.

O

[DeltaSierra]

I'd even go one step further and look into getting a system like the MGI Hydra... with modular mag well that can be swapped out... and then have the ability to run the same mags across the board....


they do offer the AK74 mag well... so you could run the same mags in both your AK and AR....

if you so choose to run 5.56 later on... you can use the same lower, swap uppers and the mag well and you're good to go...

https://www.mgi-military.com/store/index.php?product_id=29&type=&category=9


I have to ask what benefit there could possibly be to using that system, when the only thing that is interchangeable would be the fire control group housing? I just don't see it. Cool toy, not-so-practical for real use...



Just get a Colt/BCM/DD/LMT/NRW/KAC carbine in 5.56 and be done with it...

[Reagans Rascals]

:stop:

That really isn't practical in my opinion.


Just get a Colt/BCM/DD/LMT/NRW/KAC carbine in 5.56 and be done with it...





I'm going to disagree with everyone else here and say that a 5.45 as a primary is a horrible idea, and you should just get a 5.56.

How is that a terrible idea if he is already familiar and comfortable with the 5.45 and already has a decent supply of ammunition

that round isn't called the Poison Bullet because it lacks lethality

what is a terrible idea is to suggest he invest in an entirely new platform , with entirely new manual of arms, and have to invest in an entirely new stock pile of ammo... simply because you feel the 5.56 is superior in some way

[Reagans Rascals]

I have to ask what benefit there could possibly be to using that system, when the only thing that is interchangeable would be the fire control group housing? I just don't see it. Cool toy, not-so-practical for real use...



Just get a Colt/BCM/DD/LMT/NRW/KAC carbine in 5.56 and be done with it...

what are you talking about?

It allows him to run anything on an AR type platform... instead of requiring one to purchase an entirely new weapon or lower, you simply purchase an upper(which is needed either way) and a mag well... and can then swap them as need be.... while also at the same time opening things up for 7.62x39, 9mm, .45ACP, 5.56 and 7.62x51, all on the same lower

the OP said he would like to keep 5.45x39 to keep commonality with his AK74... that system allows him to take it one step further and not need to purchase additional magazines to run the same ammunition... therefore if he is in a group and is running his AR in 5.45 and someone else there is running the AK74 they can easily exchange mags if needed...

[DeltaSierra]

How is that a terrible idea if he is already familiar and comfortable with the 5.45 and already has a decent supply of ammunition

that round isn't called the Poison Bullet because it lacks lethality

what is a terrible idea is to suggest he invest in an entirely new platform , with entirely new manual of arms, and have to invest in an entirely new stock pile of ammo... simply because you feel the 5.56 is superior in some way

What doesn't make any sense to me is to want an "AR" and then try to turn it into an "ARK". If you want an AR, get an AR - not some gun that lets you use AK magazines in a distantly-AR-like package.

YMMV.



what are you talking about?

It allows him to run anything on an AR type platform... instead of requiring one to purchase an entirely new weapon or lower, you simply purchase an upper(which is needed either way) and a mag well... and can then swap them as need be.... while also at the same time opening things up for 7.62x39, 9mm, .45ACP, 5.56 and 7.62x51, all on the same lower

the OP said he would like to keep 5.45x39 to keep commonality with his AK74... that system allows him to take it one step further and not need to purchase additional magazines to run the same ammunition... therefore if he is in a group and is running his AR in 5.45 and someone else there is running the AK74 they can easily exchange mags if needed...

What am I talking about? Well, by the time you buy a new upper and a new magazine well, you could have bought a new rifle... I don't understand having more uppers than you have lowers - the uppers don't work very well trying to hit the firing pin with a hammer...

As for the whole doomsday thing about if one of his buddies has spare mags... Well, I don't buy it. Even if I believed in that type of thing, it would make more sense from a logistics standpoint to have the far more common STANAG-compatible magazines that are used by the M16/AR15 rather than the rare, and expensive AK74 magazines.

[Reagans Rascals]

What doesn't make any sense is to want an "AR" and then try to turn it into an "ARK". If you want an AR, get an AR - not some gun that lets you use AK magazines in a distantly-AR-like package.

YMMV.

That's not what he asked. He didn't ask for input on a traditional AR, he asked for input running 5.45x39

I provided him with guidance along the same path he originally asked, you are providing him with an entirely different path

At least if he went with the system I suggested, he can easily swap to 5.56 later on if he so chooses, along with a few different other calibers.... if he just went with a standard 5.56.... he will have to purchase a new upper either way and still not have magazine commonality

[DeltaSierra]

That's not what he asked. He didn't ask for input on a traditional AR, he asked for input running 5.45x39

I provided him with guidance along the same path he originally asked, you are providing him with an entirely different path

At least if he went with the system I suggested, he can easily swap to 5.56 later on if he so chooses, along with a few different other calibers.... if he just went with a standard 5.56.... he will have to purchase a new upper either way and still not have magazine commonality


OK, so we disagree on what a practical weapon would be.

I generally like to abide by the principal that simpler is better. A standard AR in 5.56 is far simpler than an MGI rifle, so the decision would be very easy for me. I also fail to see the interest in being able to switch calibers, etc. If you want a rifle in _____ caliber, go get one. If you have to purchase a new magazine well and upper, you might as well spend a couple hundred more and get another complete rifle....

I didn't intend for my posts to be taken so far - I just wanted to give the OP another opinion (based on my experience.)

[g-men10455]

I don't have a AK74 (want one) but I have a S&W 5.45x39. I also have the 5.56 and reload for it too. I buy a 1,080 for $151 shipped at that price I find myself shooting the 5.45 a lot more than the 5.56.


"Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of democracy"- Alexander Hamilton

[crossgun]

I see no issue in making the 5.45x39 AR your primary weapon. Have burned 1000s of rounds through both my S&W 16" and 10.5" SBR without really any other issues than some ammo stability. SBR has been veted at EAG class. At almost 1/3 the ammo cost its really a no brainer and the return on the componets pays for itself pretty quick. With over 10K rounds I dont think I would hesitate at all to take it out the door myself.

As far as the HYDRO thing I think I would stay away from that. While it gives you some options I think it goes just to far from what the OP was asking. IMO that mag well thing just sucks. reason you want an AR AK is to get the controls of the AR platform. Why run the AK mags at all and loose the benifits of a better mag system? Reloads just suck with the AK!

Just get the S&W upper while you can and a quality lower and you can set it up anyway you wish today and tomorrow.

5.45 is my main blaster and will more than likely keep me shooting while ammo sky rockets yet again.

[Icelus]

I run the Spikes 16" middy on a DD lower and have really come to love the setup. I kitted it out to match my 5.56 upper and it has become my primary range weapon these days. There is nothing more fun than 500+ rd range trips for $70. However, would I use it if my life depended on it? Absolutely not. The magazines are the weak link in this system. I'm running ASC exclusively and every 6-7 mags or so I'll end up with a problem, usually a double feed. I'm also having some spotty bolt lock on empty but I'm attributing that to the BAD lever barring further testing. Conversely, I've run a couple thousand rounds through my DD M4v4 upper with exactly zero malfunctions, can't argue with that dependability.
I'd say to get one for high volume range practice, it'll pay for itself on the quick and actually allow you to afford to get proficient with the platform. If you want to have a SD gun, pick up a 5.56 upper and swap it out when you leave the range.

[vicious_cb]

I see no issue in making the 5.45x39 AR your primary weapon. Have burned 1000s of rounds through both my S&W 16" and 10.5" SBR without really any other issues than some ammo stability. SBR has been veted at EAG class. At almost 1/3 the ammo cost its really a no brainer and the return on the componets pays for itself pretty quick. With over 10K rounds I dont think I would hesitate at all to take it out the door myself.

As far as the HYDRO thing I think I would stay away from that. While it gives you some options I think it goes just to far from what the OP was asking. IMO that mag well thing just sucks. reason you want an AR AK is to get the controls of the AR platform. Why run the AK mags at all and loose the benifits of a better mag system? Reloads just suck with the AK!

Just get the S&W upper while you can and a quality lower and you can set it up anyway you wish today and tomorrow.

5.45 is my main blaster and will more than likely keep me shooting while ammo sky rockets yet again.

I agree with all of the said above. Ive run a 5.45 upper with nearly 10k rounds on it and the only problems Ive had were mag or bad ammo malfunctions. Ammo price and consolidation is a huge advantage, the only problem is that you're pretty much stuck with 7N6 which has mediocre performance when compared to any of quality 5.56 defensive loads out there considering that the hornady 5.45 hasnt really been tested. Also, I stay away from the MGI lower set up. I don't know of anyone who uses it on a fighting gun as its more of a novelty than a real piece of kit. Reagans Rascals is more of a theorist around here and I would take his recommendations with a grain of salt.

[Reagans Rascals]

Reagans Rascals is more of a theorist around here and I would take his recommendations with a grain of salt.

care to elaborate? you know... since we've had so many conversations together and all

[Grizzly16]

The ammo prices are great. Having used ARs and AK pattern rifles this is my thought.

For training the 5.45 price is amazing.

For ergos on an ar (mag change, safety operation etc) > ak style rifles.

For well rounded and tested defensive ammo 5.56 > 5.45.

[Todd00000]

I'm looking to buy my first ar15. The thing is I don't currently own any other 223/5.56 rifles. I do however have two ak74's and a ton of 5.45x39. I'm strongly considering getting a s&w 5.45 upper to keep ammo commonality. I just can't see the point of buying 223/5.56 when its so similar to the 5.45 which I already have. So with all that said, is an ar15 in 5.45 something that you feel is reliable enough to be a primary rifle? If I go through with this and end up liking the AR better than the AK I would want to make it my primary rifle. Any input would be appreciated, thanks.

Why do want an AR?

To insure primary quality use the charts posted here to insure you are buying from quality manufactures.

[FN in MT]

I'm looking to buy my first ar15. The thing is I don't currently own any other 223/5.56 rifles. I do however have two ak74's and a ton of 5.45x39. I'm strongly considering getting a s&w 5.45 upper to keep ammo commonality. I just can't see the point of buying 223/5.56 when its so similar to the 5.45 which I already have. So with all that said, is an ar15 in 5.45 something that you feel is reliable enough to be a primary rifle? If I go through with this and end up liking the AR better than the AK I would want to make it my primary rifle. Any input would be appreciated, thanks.

I have had both a S&W 5.45 upper and an LWRC piston upper, both have had their ups and downs, ALL of it magazine related. Back then I was using C-Products 5.45 mags.

Few years back there was a fellow who built some 5.45 specific followers. Those helped, but didn't fix the problems 100%. Then I replaced the mag springs with some SS springs from Brownells, and dry lubed the inside of the mag body.

Now ASC is building mags for the 5.45 in the AR and they have been getting generally good reviews. I'd suggest reading the last few pages of the long running 5.45 thread, get some ASC mags and have at it.

Last Range day my 5.45 AR ran through several mags flawlessly.

You already have the ammo...give it a try.

FN in MT

[fallenromeo]

If you already have 2 AK74's, why get an AR in 5.45 as well? I am not saying go for 5.56 since they are similar, but why not try something different to add to the arsenal like a 300blk?

[Icelus]

If you already have 2 AK74's, why get an AR in 5.45 as well? I am not saying go for 5.56 since they are similar, but why not try something different to add to the arsenal like a 300blk?

I have a 74 and it's the reason I have an AR. Fact is, the ergos are horrendous when compared to a personally configured AR. If you want to get into the AR platform and intend to actually shoot the thing, the 5.45 cartridge at $0.14/rd makes complete sense, especially if you're sitting on a few cases of 7n6. I love the 300blk but I think I'm like a majority of the shooting public that just can't afford to feed the stupid thing any respectable quantity of ammo.

[Failure2Stop]

5.45 is an inexpensive and viable option, but you do lose out on the better terminal and long range performance of the better 5.56 that is available. Whether or not that is important to you is up to you.

[Littlelebowski]

That's not what he asked. He didn't ask for input on a traditional AR, he asked for input running 5.45x39

I provided him with guidance along the same path he originally asked, you are providing him with an entirely different path

At least if he went with the system I suggested, he can easily swap to 5.56 later on if he so chooses, along with a few different other calibers.... if he just went with a standard 5.56.... he will have to purchase a new upper either way and still not have magazine commonality

He could swap barrels back to 5.56 very easily and not have to deal with that abortion attached to his 5.45 lower. The very fact that many folks (myself included) have 5.45s with Glock like reliability and thousands and thousands of rounds through them should be a strong motivating factor to go with a proven setup. Mags are not that expensive and furthermore, the 5.45 lower IS a 5.56 lower. More commonality than you assumed, RR.

[Reagans Rascals]

Mags are not that expensive and furthermore, the 5.45 lower IS a 5.56 lower. More commonality than you assumed, RR.

What? I never stated that a 5.45 needed a different lower.

I suggested the MGI 5.45 mag well to allow him to run AK-74 mags...

I have no idea where you are drawing this conclusion.

The absolute only reason I suggested the MGI was so he could run the same mags across the board, AK-74 mags.

If he is just going to buy a standard 5.56 weapon and swap the barrel to 5.45, its pointless because he might as well just run the 5.56 and use the money for the barrel swap on some 5.56 ammo

[Icelus]

...If he is just going to buy a standard 5.56 weapon and swap the barrel to 5.45, its pointless because he might as well just run the 5.56 and use the money for the barrel swap on some 5.56 ammo

The price of a 5.45 upper won't even buy you 2k rounds of quality 5.56. If you do the math, ($0.32 - $0.14 = $0.18, $600/$0.18), the 5.45x39 upper pays for itself in 3334 rounds. Everything after that is money in your pocket for formal training. If he's already got a large quantity of 7n6 on hand it's quite clear that a smart consumer, assuming they expend significant quantities of ammo, would be better served by buying a S&W or Spikes upper.

Now, if you ran exclusively steel case 5.56, well, that changes the game a little bit...

[Littlelebowski]

What? I never stated that a 5.45 needed a different lower.

I suggested the MGI 5.45 mag well to allow him to run AK-74 mags...

I have no idea where you are drawing this conclusion.

The absolute only reason I suggested the MGI was so he could run the same mags across the board, AK-74 mags.

If he is just going to buy a standard 5.56 weapon and swap the barrel to 5.45, its pointless because he might as well just run the 5.56 and use the money for the barrel swap on some 5.56 ammo

My point was that a 5.45 AR offers easy caliber swapping over to 5.56. You can change the follower on 5.45 mags and have 5.56 mags ready to go.

I am very leery of trying run the platform with AK mags. The AR lower solution offers more bang for the buck should one consider resale value or the possibility of switching over to 5.56 in the future.

[TrenchArtisan]

I agree and say go for it. Ammo commonality makes perfect sense given that you have 2 AK-74's. I don't forsee any AR replacing my AK's as primary but that is a personal choice. I suggest you read through the extensive 5.45 AR thread on here and digest the information. There are very good pointers on there from mags and mag mods to springs, maintenance, wear, corrosion and barrel life. Once you have the rifle dialed in the way you want it and it is performing as it should, there is no reason why you couldn't make it your primary. My first suggestion would be to purchase a bunch of mags as they are and will be the weakest link in the system. Mark them to keep track of their performance. Good luck.

O
Do you have a direct link to said thread?

I have had both a S&W 5.45 upper and an LWRC piston upper, both have had their ups and downs, ALL of it magazine related. Back then I was using C-Products 5.45 mags.

Few years back there was a fellow who built some 5.45 specific followers. Those helped, but didn't fix the problems 100%. Then I replaced the mag springs with some SS springs from Brownells, and dry lubed the inside of the mag body.

Now ASC is building mags for the 5.45 in the AR and they have been getting generally good reviews. I'd suggest reading the last few pages of the long running 5.45 thread, get some ASC mags and have at it.

Last Range day my 5.45 AR ran through several mags flawlessly.

You already have the ammo...give it a try.

FN in MT
Again; not really sure which thread you guys are talking about specifically.
Also, I read somewhere on the errornet that ASC had merely bought the old tooling from C-Products.
Does any of that story sound legit? (I honestly wouldn't know.)

Why do want an AR?

To insure primary quality use the charts posted here to insure you are buying from quality manufactures.
Just to be clear, the "Holy Grail of M4 Manufacturer Charts" went away around the same time rob_s was banned, right? (I can't find a complete version of it anywhere!)

He could swap barrels back to 5.56 very easily and not have to deal with that abortion attached to his 5.45 lower. The very fact that many folks (myself included) have 5.45s with Glock like reliability and thousands and thousands of rounds through them should be a strong motivating factor to go with a proven setup. Mags are not that expensive and furthermore, the 5.45 lower IS a 5.56 lower. More commonality than you assumed, RR.
Do you have a thread where you discuss your rig in detail?

5.45 is an inexpensive and viable option, but you do lose out on the better terminal and long range performance of the better 5.56 that is available. Whether or not that is important to you is up to you.
Not to pick nits, but what 5.56 round would you recommend if one were contemplating the replacement of a large stash of 7N6 surplus--and whom is totally spoiled on cheap ammo? (I'm asking for a 'friend' here. ;))

Thanks in advance to:
oef24, FN in MT, Todd00000, Littlelebowski, and Failure2Stop

[500grains]

Just to be clear, the "Holy Grail of M4 Manufacturer Charts" went away around the same time rob_s was banned, right? (I can't find a complete version of it anywhere!)


Rob S was banned?

Is that true?

WTF over??

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html

[oef24]

Do you have a direct link to said thread?

No problem. 3 1/2 years worth of info.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=18015

O

[TrenchArtisan]

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html

Thanks. I actually did find that version, but there are fewer company names on it than I thought there were supposed to be, so I just assumed that this version was incomplete.

[TrenchArtisan]

No problem. 3 1/2 years worth of info.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=18015

Holy crap! Sooo much reading!
Thanks.

[Magic_Salad0892]

My opinion is that you should not buy the AR-15 if you already have the AK as a primary rifle. Unless you're going to make a total system, and caliber change (as it's better to use the caliber that the gun is MOST reliable in) then the AR-15 won't make as much sense for you.

Take the money that you'd use on the AR, and get ammo, or a training class. Or better support gear for your AK.

And this is coming from a dude who only owns ARs in 5.56mm.

Plus, I hate the idea of running corrosive ammo in a direct gas piston system. It'd also be hard for me to buy into the idea of a non milspec AR-15 as my primary gun.

Ever.

However a 5.45mm AK is awesome. Stick with what you're good with, because what you need may already be what you have...

[500grains]

I agree with Miss Foot. Pick your platform (AR or AK), buy a quality weapon or 2, buy lots of ammo for QUALITY practice (not undisciplined blasting), attend a class.

Don't mix platforms.

Don't try to support multiple platforms with different mags, calibers, etc. unless your budget really allows for it.

Practice with your rifle and become really good with it.

That being said I am into the AR15, AR10, AK74 and AK47 platforms, but have avoided the FAL, G3, P90, etc, platforms for now. With either an AK47 or AK74 I can reliably hit a man silhouette at 350 yards from a sitting position. That doesn't make me the quickest guy on the draw up close but I am working on that.

[500grains]

Thanks. I actually did find that version, but there are fewer company names on it than I thought there were supposed to be, so I just assumed that this version was incomplete.

Maybe you are right, it does seem short.

Here is the website of the fellow who used to maintain the list:

http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/69016/index.html

[Big A]

I was debabating getting the S&W 5.45 upper and building a dedicated rifle for it but then decided that the money I'd spend doing this could go to 5.56 ammo and training/range time so I decided to go that route instead. Plus I don't see how training with one caliber translates into using another caliber for personal defense. That's why I just stick with 5.56 and use the money I'd spend to get a different caliber for training on 5.56 ammo.

If you feel suitably armed with your Ak's then I would say use the money you would put into an AR for more mags/gear/ammo/etc for guns you already have.

[jesuvuah]

personally I would not do it, but that is just my opinion. One of the great things about the AR is that the not only has the rifle become very refined over time, but so has the ammo. Their are so many choices in 5.56 ammo. That is one of the main reasons I choose the AR.

I did the same thing for a while (opposite though) when I had ak's and ar's. I thought about ditching my x39 ak's for a 5.56 ak but eventually decided against it. Long story short I eventually just got rid of my ak's.

[Littlelebowski]

Plus I don't see how training with one caliber translates into using another caliber for personal defense.

Most of your post was right except for this. I don't find the recoil impulse nor max point blank range to be wildly different and of course, the manual of arms is exactly the same.

[Littlelebowski]

Do you have a thread where you discuss your rig in detail?


Working on an article. It only deviates from stock (as far as internals) in that it has an O-ring extractor upgrade and an H-buffer.

[jjw]

I see no issue in making the 5.45x39 AR your primary weapon. Have burned 1000s of rounds through both my S&W 16" and 10.5" SBR without really any other issues than some ammo stability. SBR has been vetted at EAG class. At almost 1/3 the ammo cost its really a no brainer and the return on the components pays for itself pretty quick. With over 10K rounds I dont think I would hesitate at all to take it out the door myself.

As far as the HYDRO thing I think I would stay away from that. While it gives you some options I think it goes just to far from what the OP was asking. IMO that mag well thing just sucks. reason you want an AR AK is to get the controls of the AR platform. Why run the AK mags at all and loose the benefits of a better mag system? Reloads just suck with the AK!

Just get the S&W upper while you can and a quality lower and you can set it up anyway you wish today and tomorrow.

5.45 is my main blaster and will more than likely keep me shooting while ammo sky rockets yet again.

since we did a lot of this together naturally i agree. BUUUUT not because we run together. we dont always agree as friends do.

i happen to think this is 1 of the finest systems going. i have exactly the same 2 uppers, extra bolts,extractors, all parts etc.
i also have a metric ton of ammo.

go to gun. not my 1st choice due to team communality, since he would be here if shtf, probably not a lot of heart burn.

i also shoot some hornady but with asthma 3-4 moa is as good as i can do. bolt gun has good eyes and good breathing and he can shoot my 5x45 and my t.a.p. into 1/2 moa all day long.

remember the thoracic triad guys. nipple-nipple-neck. 17" prox.
no 1 cares in the real world if u hit him in the leg, rib,fat belly. i WILL BET he will quit what pissed u off in the 1st place.

umwv

jjw

just sorry more people dont see the light.
FYI: will be doing a govt class in Marietta next Thur-Fri-sat-Sunday day and nite. guess what my trg gun will be cause i am cheap. also with knight's ""can""

[Littlelebowski]

since we did a lot of this together naturally i agree. BUUUUT not because we run together. we dont always agree as friends do.

i happen to think this is 1 of the finest systems going. i have exactly the same 2 uppers, extra bolts,extractors, all parts etc.
i also have a metric ton of ammo.

go to gun. not my 1st choice due to team communality, since he would be here if shtf, probably not a lot of heart burn.

i also shoot some hornady but with asthma 3-4 moa is as good as i can do. bolt gun has good eyes and good breathing and he can shoot my 5x45 and my t.a.p. into 1/2 moa all day long.

remember the thoracic triad guys. nipple-nipple-neck. 17" prox.
no 1 cares in the real world if u hit him in the leg, rib,fat belly. i WILL BET he will quit what pissed u off in the 1st place.

umwv

jjw

just sorry more people dont see the light.
FYI: will be doing a govt class in Marietta next Thur-Fri-sat-Sunday day and nite. guess what my trg gun will be cause i am cheap. also with knight's ""can""

Come on man, looks like you posted some good info but in textspeak or something. Take the time to write it out properly.

[ruedger455@yahoo.com]

My buddy runs a 5.45 ar. And he says its awesome just as accurate and reliable as his 5.56 just a whole lot cheaper to shoot.