View Full Version : Red Dots on Pistols: Are backup irons really necessary?
I've searched through the various threads, but didn't really see a discussion on this topic.
Let's say a shooter wants a mini-red dot milled into the slide of a handgun. The make/model of the optic is (mostly) immaterial. The only case where it would be is on the optics that have a rudimentary notch or similar item to facilitate sighting if the optic goes down.
Are backup irons really necessary? Red dots are very robust now, and I can't recall the last time I saw one fail (not including EOTechs of course). I fully believe in the "two is one, one is none" mantra, but when it comes to handguns they are predominantly short range weapons. I'm not advocating not having irons... just trying to get some discussion going on the topic. For a handgun that will be a "nightstand" gun and the longest distance inside my home is not much... I could see making the argument that using the slide or the frame of the optic would provide enough accuracy.
I'm specifically interested in keeping the thread focused on the irons with the only exception being a red dot that has an "iron" sighting mechanism as part of the housing.
With that said, if you have a red dot milled into the slide, do you:
1) Leave the factory front sight and just use the optic (no rear iron sight)?
2) Install suppressor (taller) sights with the rear sight in front of the optic (closer to the ejection port)?
3) Install suppressor sights with the rear sight behind the optic (closer to the shooter)?
4) Install a suppressor front sight and use a notch or painted line on the back of the optic? (this would include mounts such as the LaRue that have the built in peep sight)
Thanks!
Dave James
04-12-12, 11:52
I have not ran one and don't know for sure their strengths, but it would seem to me, at lest a front sight with the red dot, even if the dot goes dark, the hood and clear glass with the front sight would give you a peep sight of sorts, but then again if you know your set up maybe the same would work with just the clear glass and hood of the red dot.
Doing what it takes to have back up iron sights on the gun is well worth it if you’re running a red dot IMO. Even the best electronics can break or go down, and if my life is on the line, I want all the advantage I can get. I would much rather have sights than not, even in home defense distances.
My brother in law has a FN .45 tactical with the Burris Fast Fire red dot sight. We were taking a 3-day class a couple months ago and the red dot shit the bed half way into the class. Luckily, he has both the front and rear tall suppressor iron sights on there and was able to finish the class just fine. His rear irons are behind the red dot sight, closer to the shooter.
If I were running a red dot, I would definitely have back up irons.
I think they are definitely worth it. While I think that most of the quality made micro dots are rugged enough to survive the typical shooters use and abuse, I'm more concerned about the weakest link in the system; the battery. Aimpoint can claim 100000000000 years of service and have the data to back it, but they can't guarantee that the Duracell you bought at Home Depot wasnt crispy fried on the way to the store and is an RCH away from crapping the bed as you're paying for it. For that reason I think BUIS are important. Either that or you damn well better practice hitting what you aim at without sights. While it may be easy to hit across the room without sights in the calm of a range session, I doubt that many shooters could do so under serious stress. Hell most people do a lot more missing with sights then we like to admit.
When I get my G21 milled for the RMR, I'm going to have a BUIS installed. I'd like to see the BUIS be unobtrusive (1911-esque blades) and require less milling that the current options, but that isn't going to stop me from having them installed. I'd like to have the RMR as far to the rear of the slide as possible, just to minimize bouncing brass off the thing so the BUIS will go in front.
Well I'd say it really depends on your intended use for the gun. Is it a range only gun or for competitions or is it a personal defense gun that you'll use and carry?
I think if you're carrying it every day with the intention that it could be used for personal defense then you need iron sights. But for a range only gun and a fun gun there's really no real need.
plouffedaddy
04-12-12, 21:36
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/IMAG0571.jpg
I think it's probably not necessary due to the close up nature of handgun work but if I'm going to trust my life to the gun, it's worth it IMO.
foxjordan22
04-12-12, 21:43
You absolutely need to have some sort of visual reference in addition to the electronic sight. How elaborate of a secondary sighting system you need is upto you but it needs to be there. You also need to actually verify that the secondary sighting system/BUIS/ref point works well enough for your needs.
None of the current mini red dot sights, excepting the Aimpoint Mirco, are "there" yet is terms of ruggedness and reliability. I've seen or know of first hand failures with the Deltapoint, RMR, L3 MRDS, J Point, Doctor, etc. hell, I even had the battery die on a Micro recently--- for the first time ever. The little J Point "type" (shape/size) sights are better than ever but they still aren't "there" like, say an Aimpoint or an ATPIAL.
This. I use my back up irons as a point of reference to find the DOT. In different shooting positions it can be very hard to locate the DOT without iron sights as a reference.
I have yet to purchase a red dot pistol sight. However when researching the j point I read an article where the author stated that at night, the dot can be washed out with a powerful enough weapon light. Just one more thing to take into consideration but if it were me, I would absolutely have irons.
willowofwisp
04-13-12, 06:32
There are multiple reasons to have BUIS on your MRDS gun. a few examples
-Wash out
-battery dying
-Screen cracking
-Minired dot some how gets sheared off.
The added cost of BUIS is really minimal and definitely worth its weight in gold IMO. You just need to decided between behind or in front of the red dot.
And then I would add, try it first...
In MY experience, I'm a little faster at close range with irons (where I think pistols count the most), the red dot sights really start to improve accuracy at 15+ yds, and the farther the better (accuracy + speed gains). MRDS are also great in low light.
But I'm concerned about dot wash out, battery life, screen cracks, etc., and specially about rain or condensation on the screen, or mud, blood, dust, on it. I'm a KISS kind of guy.
I'm turning 50 this year, but my eyes are still more than capable to use irons very fast and accurately up to 25 m, and much further if I take a little more time. For ME, the cost, complications, bulk, and specially uncertainties of a MRDS on a handgun are not worth it. YMMV.
If I used a MRDS I would put a BUIS for sure.
militarymoron
04-13-12, 08:30
i've had mini RDS mount on my handguns and i would ABSOLUTELY recommend tall suppressor sights that co-witness with the dot. besides all the reasons the others mentioned (i also find it faster to use the front sight as a visual reference for finding the dot), having irons is a quick way to verify that your RDS is still zero'd properly.
i had one mounting screw on my RDS back out/loosen, sending my shots all over the place. when i checked it with the irons, i had a visual confirmation that something had moved. when i tightened the screw, and i re-adjusted the dot back to the irons, it was dead on.
I ran a G17 with an RDS for a few months.
If your pistol is a range toy, they’re optional. If you’re studying the RDS concept, you can get by without them while you make up your mind, but they shorten the learning curve considerably, so you’ll want them as soon as you start to train seriously.
If the gun is for defense, get BUIS and don’t look back. Here’s why:
1. The make is far from immaterial—some RDS are durable, others are not.
2. Ordinary contact with car seats, holsters, and other gear can change the brightness settings on some RDS models or turn them off entirely.
3. How well do you shoot when sighting along the side of the slide? In the dark? When you’ve been startled out of a deep sleep? With loved ones somewhere in the range fan?
4. As TAZ pointed out, the weak links are batteries and mounting systems. The Trijicon RMR on my pistol once shot loose, and the zero went completely wild until I isolated the problem and fixed it. The RMR on my carbine—the same model as on my G17—once died after less than 20 rounds on what I thought was a fresh battery. I flipped up my BUIS and kept shooting. A new battery put the sight back in action, but I had to leave the range to get it. Both episodes wrecked my confidence in those particular sights until I had several hundred more rounds through them without problems. Now I’m fully confident that the RMRs were not the issue, but nobody needs that kind of doubt when it comes to carry guns.
5. If you pull the RDS for maintenance, you can still use the pistol with irons. It looks weird with big ol’ sights and a gaping hole in the top of the slide, but it shoots just fine.
In reference to the first option you listed, you won’t be able to see the factory front sight over the RDS base unless you elevate the muzzle enough to shoot way over the target, even at very close range. There are valid schools of thought behind both the second and third options, and the jury is still out. Not sure about your fourth option. It might work, but the proven solution is a good set of suppressor-height BUIS.
In the end, you’re dropping several hundred bucks on the RDS and installation. BUIS don’t add much to the total cost, and it’s unwise not to have them.
Okie John
Thanks guys. It makes sense to have them. I put the cheap red dot that came with my Sig 556 on a 22/45 I recently picked up and was surprised at how easy it was to lose the dot.
I only saw one person comment with regard to placement though. Rear irons in front or behind the glass? Other preferences? I like Taz's reasoning for avoiding ejecting brass.
Edit: and this has nothing to do with cost. I'm one of those shooters who despises having irons in my FOV when using optics. That and I wanted to generate some discussion on the topic since I've seen all manner of setups.
Pennington and MM nailed it.
I spent quite a bit of time with a Bowie M&P with the Detltapoint and I would not have a setup like this without having irons I could see through the optic.
ETA:
I think you should start coming to the range with us, though, instead of wasting money on new fangled gadgets. :p
ETA:
I think you should start coming to the range with us, though, instead of wasting money on new fangled gadgets. :p
Lol! Sure - stop picking weekends when I'm out of town or working. ;) It's tough enough for me to make the steel matches. I am stockpiling ammo for Shrek's class - assume you will be there?
and specially about rain or condensation on the screen, or mud, blood, dust, on it. I'm a KISS kind of guy.
.
Although, if there is enough of this stuff on the RD, seeing the BUISs will be a bit difficult:)
The "old school" gene in me delayed my getting a RD on my 6920 until I was, perhaps, the last person in the country to do so. Wow - glad I finally did. 60 year old eyes love it:) I'm still waiting a bit to see if I want to rig out one of the Glocks with optics. Discussions like this one help a lot in the information gathering stages:) (I will NEVER defile any of my 1911s with such - if for no other reason than aesthetics:):):)
john
MY solution (after trying a few ones) is simply not to use a MRDS and stick to irons... see my comments on optimun range of use of MRDS, and this makes (in my opinion) their pro-vs-cons balance in a handgun quite different from a carbine.
I'm a civilian user and also don't like laser grips or pointers, after trying them.
And I don't use pistol mounted lights 95% of the time, and since I don't use them prefer the low profile of glock rails (or nore) to the horrible bulky graters that are the picatinny rails.
I'm not saying that they are useless, but everyone is different, and I like to weight the pros and cons of each gadget I add for my personal needs.
I like black-on-black sights, or bar-dot, or front tritium only. No weak fiber sight inserts for me.
RagweedZulu
04-15-12, 23:23
There are multiple reasons to have BUIS on your MRDS gun. a few examples
-Wash out
-battery dying
-Screen cracking
-Minired dot some how gets sheared off.
The added cost of BUIS is really minimal and definitely worth its weight in gold IMO. You just need to decided between behind or in front of the red dot.
^this. Plus who's to say you don't end up outdoors in some kind of a running gun battle at distances longer than your bedroom?!? What? It could happen! :)
I'd like to think I could put my nightstand gun in a holster if needed and hit the town. I wouldn't rely SOLELY on any battery operated device.
...besides all the reasons the others mentioned (i also find it faster to use the front sight as a visual reference for finding the dot)
Bingo. I find it important to look for the front sight during my press out and have the red dot come into view as I acquire my sight-target picture. I loose the red dot and have to hunt for it about 20% of the time if I don't track the front sight as my arms are extending. This has the added benefit of being consistent in my technique across all of my pistol platforms since I only use the red not on one pistol, and the rest have conventional sights that require good tracking of the front sight to be smooth, fast, and accurate.
Ten years later...any opinions change about this?
Lots of guns out there with no factory optic mount.
However, there are quality plates that fit in the rear dovetail, replacing the rear sight.
An HK P30SK LEM caught my eye but it has no optic mount. The dovetail plate is available but then there would be no backup irons.
Thoughts?
I can only speak for myself. But open emitter RDS are still not as bombproof as the closed emitters we use on rifles. So I still run BUIS on all mine.
I was one of the first to run a red dot on a carry pistol. I have the receipt from Spring 2001, for my first red dot a Dr. Optic. This was mounted on a mount that fit into the dovetail of the rear sight. I carried that Glock 34 for years, it had to back up iron sights.
I then went to a RMR with full backup irons. I found the rear sight to be a distraction.
On my red dot pistols today they all have a front sight and no rear sight.
On a carry gun, lets be honest the chance of having to shoot past 25 yards is so small as to be almost nonexistent. I can get good hits out to 25 yards with no sweat using the body of the red dot as a big ghost ring with the front sight, if I should lose the dot. I can go out to much farther but the times really slow down. I will note that on my CZ P07, the front sight is a night sight. The other night when my battery went down, a new battery I might add, I looked at the glowing night sight through the glass and felt just great.
So my set up is front sight no rear, it works great.
I have yet to see an RDS pistol set up that comes within a MILE of reliability. The market is there for the development of a system that can take the beating and have the battery life of an aimpoint rifle sight.
In a few years, we'll be looking back at the current options like the dark ages.
I've played with them, shot a few, and don't own one yet. I've got an MOS 19 and 41 but no RDS yet. My thoughts are that with rifles, which I adopted RDS early, the Aimpoint rose to the top quickly. It's not the only one but it's still the top of the pack as far as I'm concerned. We haven't had one of the pistol RDS float to the top yet. When that happens I'll pull the trigger, so to speak. I also know that they are becoming more and more reliable as we progress. However I don't think they are as big an improvement on a pistol as a rifle. I can't imagine not having an optic on an AR but just don't feel it's a necessity on a handgun.
I recently put an rmrcc on a S&W Shield with a suppressor height front sight and NO rear sight,
I'm not the biggest fan of it.
All my others have suppressor height front and rear black sights with the rear behind the RDS (at back of slide). I like this the best.
My cousin has a line painted on the RMR window and no rear sight with suppressor height front, I tried to save a few bucks and copy that with the above mentioned shield, but its not the best choice for me.
I run backup sights because I've seen one RMR window pop out during a class and about a dozen halosun RDS fail either in classes or competition.
I swear by Trijicon but have witnessed that one failure with my own eyes so I now say RDS are not 100%. I still really prefer them but realize that plan B and even C aren't bad ideas to have.
I have yet to purchase a red dot pistol sight. However when researching the j point I read an article where the author stated that at night, the dot can be washed out with a powerful enough weapon light. Just one more thing to take into consideration but if it were me, I would absolutely have irons.This us true, even with the Trijicon RMR.
I learned the auto adjust brightness models have this issue, I corrected it by switching to manual adjust brightness models now.
Before leaving the house in the dark, I bump up the brightness two times and haven't had an issue since.
I've done this at a low light class also with no washout during the class.
I run std hight sights on my glocks w/rmr.
Id be ok without a rear but would always have a front.
There's no way that reliability is the string suit for a group of products that is dominated by NEW Chinese companies. I had an RMR on a patrol rifle for some time and it was fine, but I wouldn't trust a 1-5 year old random Chinese company to make a reliable aiming device that I might depend on in a dire situation.
I have watched Aaron of Sage Dynamics beat Holosuns and they have held up beyond what I thought they would.
As of now my dots are RMR and Leupold Delta micro.
As part of my responsibilities for my company, is to search out new and good products for our clients. I found on Gunbroker a Holosun 509T that had been a demo model in a gun store, but never on a pistol that has been fired. It was at a huge discount, so yesterday I bought it with the idea of trying to break it under conditions are clients work under.
I have watched Aaron of Sage Dynamics beat Holosuns and they have held up beyond what I thought they would.
As of now my dots are RMR and Leupold Delta micro.
As part of my responsibilities for my company, is to search out new and good products for our clients. I found on Gunbroker a Holosun 509T that had been a demo model in a gun store, but never on a pistol that has been fired. It was at a huge discount, so yesterday I bought it with the idea of trying to break it under conditions are clients work under.Keep in mind that the 509t takes a special mount that isn't compatible with the RMR/507c/508t.
Thanks.
I ordered myself a P30SK. If I like it enough I can get dovetail plate, an optic, and supressor-hight front sight I suppose.
Defaultmp3
01-14-22, 14:11
Thanks.
I ordered myself a P30SK. If I like it enough I can get dovetail plate, an optic, and supressor-hight front sight I suppose.Why not just get it milled for an optic?
Keep in mind that the 509t takes a special mount that isn't compatible with the RMR/507c/508t.
509t comes with RMR adapter plate
titsonritz
01-14-22, 15:04
509t comes with RMR adapter plate
But then it is skying above the bore.
As to the OP, I want backup irons.
Why not just get it milled for an optic?
Have to receive, shoot, and be sure I like it first.
I see there is a roll pin that goes through the top to secure the firing pin?
Not sure how that would interfere with an optic cut.
Then, someone has to cut my slide, not screw up, and replace that quality HK finish with something far less quality, like ceracoat, and I have to periodically check it for rust.
If I decide I want a different optic later, it may fit differently since the cut will have already been made for the 1st optic.
Too soon for those decisions.
Seems the included plate does raise the 509T more than necessary, but there is an alternative plate that raises it less: https://chpws.com/product/rmr-to-holosun-509t/#reviews
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-15-22, 09:18
I have a training G17 with a RMR and no BUIS. Ran it two weeks ago in a blizzard, dot was gone from the snow and there was no getting it back. I ordered some BUIS for it immediately. Yes, they are necessary.
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