View Full Version : Starting to get Failures to eject from my BCM midlength
So I just got this BCM midlength right around New Year's of this year and had some issues with getting it zeroed. BCM put things back in alignment and that problem seems to be fixed. I wasn't able to shoot much over the winter but over the past six weeks or so I've made it a point to get out and break my rifle in. Altogether now I'm at around 300 rounds through it, but over the past few weeks I've been noticing failures to eject about two or three times from every box of ammo.
Ammo options are kind of limited in my area but I have shot a couple different lots of XM193, a couple different lots of American Eagle .223 55 grain FMJ, and two boxes of steel cased Tula.
The rifle is giving me FTE's that range from the nasty total failure where the extracted round gets stuck between the bolt and the inside of the receiver to stovepipes to some that just fail to eject and lay on top of the magazine when the bolt locks back on the last round. I've dealt with Failures to eject like this before on several guns and usually solved it with replacing the extractor or extractor spring, but the spring seems strong on this gun and the extractor is practically brand new. And although I suspected some underpowered rounds in one bad lot of ammo at first, the issue showing up with XM193 has me thinking it's the rifle.
Any advice?
Failure2Stop
04-15-12, 14:38
Try lubricating/cleaning the ejector.
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It has been reported here several times that it is not "good" to mix shooting steel case and brass ammo without cleaning the chamber when switching types.
Have you cleaned the chamber and then tried it?
A few more questions:
- Are you keeping the Bolt, Carrier, and misc. parts wet with lube?
- If you hand cycle a cartridge, does it eject forcefully?
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Why don't you talk to us about the lower (buffer and spring set up) and also whether or not you have an O-ring on the extractor.
So I just got this BCM midlength right around New Year's of this year and had some issues with getting it zeroed. BCM put things back in alignment and that problem seems to be fixed. I wasn't able to shoot much over the winter but over the past six weeks or so I've made it a point to get out and break my rifle in. Altogether now I'm at around 300 rounds through it, but over the past few weeks I've been noticing failures to eject about two or three times from every box of ammo.
Ammo options are kind of limited in my area but I have shot a couple different lots of XM193, a couple different lots of American Eagle .223 55 grain FMJ, and two boxes of steel cased Tula.
The rifle is giving me FTE's that range from the nasty total failure where the extracted round gets stuck between the bolt and the inside of the receiver to stovepipes to some that just fail to eject and lay on top of the magazine when the bolt locks back on the last round. I've dealt with Failures to eject like this before on several guns and usually solved it with replacing the extractor or extractor spring, but the spring seems strong on this gun and the extractor is practically brand new. And although I suspected some underpowered rounds in one bad lot of ammo at first, the issue showing up with XM193 has me thinking it's the rifle.
Any advice?
300 rounds doesn't seem to be enough to have any upper related issues. Even if you have an o ring in (witch you shouldn't) assuming you have an in spec BCG.
I will second the notion of the lower spring and buffer combination being the issue.
As for cleaning, I thought that perhaps the dirt was the problem at first. I'd intentionally not cleaned it to see how long it would go before I needed to clean it but I did scrub it down pretty thoroughly when I first started getting failures. The last couple times I've had it out it wasn't totally spotless, but it was far from filthy and definitely should have worked. I'm using the standard Hoppes gun oil I have around because that's what's available. It's lubed but not soaking, sloppy wet. I'd be surprised if it's a lube issue because it was running 100% at first with older batches of M193 and AE223 and I really haven't changed anything since then.
For the extractor, there is no O-ring on it. The rifle is precisely as it came from the factory with the exception that they fixed a misaligned FSB about three months ago. I'm not sure what buffer is in it but I think it's marked "H" - I'll check and report back.
Also, the recoil is consistent and feels normal and the rings on the bolt are staggered as they should be, so I don't think it's an issue with not getting enough pressure to work the action. It doesn't seem to be short-stroking. Like I said, sometimes it locks back on the last round with a spent case just lying on the follower. Hand cycling briskly ejects live rounds. Also, the steel cased ammo didn't always lock the bolt back, indicating that they are probably on the marginal end of having enough power (at least in my uneducated opinion) to cycle the action, but they still fed and ejected without issue. If the issue was in the buffer and spring, wouldn't it have showed up there first?
I realize that I'm not the high-volume shooter that many of you on here are. Maybe 300 rounds isn't enough to make a solid diagnosis, but I still feel like if anything it should be wearing in and working 100% at this point, not getting less reliable. And I'm also thinking that if it won't run on M193, well... that's not good. I could see issues with the steel case stuff (which I haven't shot any of for awhile) or maybe even with civilian .223, but if it won't run on current US made mil-spec ammo, that's a problem.
300 mixed rounds shouldn't be enough to really cause failures from steel cased ammo (other than it being under powered) or from the weapon being dirty.
Ill third the need to know what kind of buffer and spring in the lower. Did you buy or build this lower? What brand components were used? Report this info back and we can better help you diagnose.
In the meantime ditch the Hoppes gun oil and pick up some Weapon Shield, Slip2000, Froglube, or other quality lube.
300 mixed rounds shouldn't be enough to really cause failures from steel cased ammo (other than it being under powered) or from the weapon being dirty.
Ill third the need to know what kind of buffer and spring in the lower. Did you buy or build this lower? What brand components were used? Report this info back and we can better help you diagnose.
In the meantime ditch the Hoppes gun oil and pick up some Weapon Shield, Slip2000, Froglube, or other quality lube.
I'll try different lube... but I've got a hard time thinking that a rifle shouldn't make it through 40 rounds of any decent quality ammo regardless of what it's lubed with.
No disrespect... just sayin'...
The rifle was built by BCM and bought from Midwest Tactical in January. I haven't changed any components. I've been eyeing up extractors and extractor springs but thought it prudent to ask here for some insight first.
Lube the living shit out of it with real gun lube, not cleaning solvent. I repeat; apply AMPLE amounts of REAL gun lube (Froglube/MPro LPX, etc) to bolt/BCG/CH. It should spit at you like a llama.
If that fails, closely examine your lower, springs, buffer, etc.
Mobil 1; or any quality motor oil will work fine. I like Wally World syn. in 10W-30. Follow IG's advice and report back to let us know how it went.
This sounds like an ejector issue, as others have stated. Try working the ejector back and forth to feel how it moves. If it doesn't move smoothly or gets stuck/very gritty feeling, there is your problem. Also look at the bolt face and see if there is lots of brass glitter everywhere.
I don't think this is from using the wrong oil, although it wouldn't hurt to use a better oil in the future.
Motor oil I've got! I'm relatively inexperienced with the AR family but truth is, I've ran M-16's and the old AR carbine I had before totally dry at times and never had any ill effects under "range" conditions. I've often used motor oil to lube guns but I didn't know how the AR would like it. I'll try some of that on it for my next outing, but I still kind of doubt that it will help.
Also, I just checked and the buffer is H marked. I checked out the ejector while I had the rifle out and although the spring tension is pretty stiff, it seems to move smoothly back and forth. I also used an older lot of M193 (dated 2011) last week when I shot it and it ran perfectly. Up until I got problems with the newer lot of XM193 today I really thought the problem was just with the AE223 Tactical ammo I'd tried in it. Even that stuff worked fine a couple months ago when I was using a different lot. I was really surprised to see an XM193 casing stovepiped on my third shot today. But if it was an ejector problem, wouldn't it show up all the time with all ammo instead of just with certain lots?
Also, there aren't really any brass shavings or "glitter" anywhere on the bolt. I've also noticed that most of my casings don't have much of a mark where the extractor is grabbing them. Most of the other military style rifles I've owned leave a hell of a mark, but you'd have a hard time finding it with the brass from this rifle.
I recently had a hell of a time with a rifle that I built having the same issues. I just about replaced every part on the rifle. The culprit was an out of spec gas block. The hole was not where it should be causing the gas port to be firing into the top of the block.
The difference in my issue compared to yours is that you reported no change in function. My rifle was much different during recoil. I can't explain it but I can compare it to an over gassed gun with under gassed cycling issues.
Good Luck.
I recently had a hell of a time with a rifle that I built having the same issues. I just about replaced every part on the rifle. The culprit was an out of spec gas block. The hole was not where it should be causing the gas port to be firing into the top of the block.
The difference in my issue compared to yours is that you reported no change in function. My rifle was much different during recoil. I can't explain it but I can compare it to an over gassed gun with under gassed cycling issues.
Good Luck.
Yeah, I don't think it's an actual cycling issue. The recoil seems to feel the same regardless of whether the casing makes it out of the chamber or not. Truth is, I'm kind of not so impressed with BCM at this point. I like the AR, but if I need to contact the factory for a second defect on a new rifle, I am not going to be a happy customer.
I also noticed that a couple of the rounds that did eject today landed on the shooting bench back near my elbow. Most eject very positively and landed on the other side of the shooting bench to my right about eight feet away. I've been reading about issues with too much extractor spring strength and wonder if that's what's happening.
But why only on certain ammo, and why only after 250-300 rounds downrange?
Check out this article:
Box o' Truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm)
I realize you aren't tearing the rims of of stuck cases, but note that firing Russian steel cased ammo leaves carbon deposits in the chamber that blow by the cartridge since it doesn't expand like brass. Then you chase it with brass and the brass expands in the chamber bonding to the left over carbon from the steel cased ammo. This makes extraction difficult, leading to stuck cases or ejection malfunctions.
Canonshooter
04-16-12, 07:07
+1 for the above.
All steel cases have a coating to prevent rust, usually laquer. This coating can leave deposits that "gum up" the chamber and cause extraction issues.
Some rifles (such as AKs) are designed to use steel cased ammo by using "looser" chamber dimensions, heavily tapered cartridges and over gassing.
BCM uppers are intended for use with brass-cased, 5.56 NATO spec ammo. Sure, they may run OK with .223 or even with steel cased .223, but don't blame the rifle if it does not.
This is what I would do...
To eliminate the possibility of a fouled chamber, I'd clean the chamber really well with Gun Scrubber or carb cleaner (something that will disolve laquer) and a bore brush and mop, then follow up with a quality gun lube and wipe dry. Be sure to clean the "run off" from the chamber cleaning out of barrel at the same time.
Lube the BCG/upper really well and then head to the range with only the XM193 ammo. If you still have a problem, then contact BCM.
Try replacing the buffer with a regular (non-H) buffer, I had similar odd issues with a mid-length upper using different types of ammo and that's what the culprit turned out to be.
polymorpheous
04-16-12, 08:14
All steel cases have a coating to prevent rust, usually laquer. This coating can leave deposits that "gum up" the chamber and cause extraction issues.
This is simply not true, and has been debated to death on this very forum.
You need to eliminate the variables. Stop mucking around with all types of ammo from different lots and years, weird lubes, and don't try to "fix" anything right now.
Drop back and clean the whole gun. a good, thorough, cleaning paying special attention to the chamber (get an AR15/M16 chamber brush and use that, not just whatever they have locally. "we don't have much available locally" is a nonsense excuse in 2012). Use a wet patch to LIGHTLY lube the chamber with quality, modern, firearm lubricant.
Re-assemble the gun and literally lube the shit out of the bolt and carrier. Get it glistening all over, and just shy of dripping. You don't *have* to lube it this way but it's the easiest way to assure that you have all the right spots, and you're not going to hurt anything doing it that way. Use a quality, modern, firearms lube. Yes, the world is full of people using engine oil, but again until you get the gun working under ideal conditions with proper ammo and lube you need to stick to doing it "right". I'm a fan of the Slip2000 products for cleaning and lubing.
Go fire the gun with the same ammo type, and buy enough of it that you can keep shooting that same ammo type without constantly changing around. I'd suggest XM193 as a good middle-of-the-road ammo to use for this.
Perform several function checks, to include testing to see if the gun locks back on an empty magazine by loading first a single round in the mag and firing and then three rounds in the mag and firing. Perform those tests several (5-10 times at least) times each.
Until you know that a properly cleaned and lubed gun, with quality ammo, is or is not running reliably, everything else is just going to have you running around in circles chasing your own ass.
Canonshooter
04-16-12, 09:10
This is simply not true, and has been debated to death on this very forum.
Steel is a ferrous metal and will oxidize. It must be coated with something to prevent rapid oxidation; laquer, polymer or plated with a non-ferrous metal. All the OP stated is "Tula" which is imported from Russia and is coated with either laquer or polymer.
It's also been "debated to death" that if you want to use cheap, commy-bloc steel-cased ammo in your AR and then have problems, don't bitch about the quality of the rifle until you're certain it runs with the ammo it was designed for.
So, back on topic; based on what the OP has described, it may be worth doing what I suggested. At least it eliminates one other possibility before losing the rifle for a few weeks and taking up BCM's time on something that might be operator error (ammo selection).
Edit; +1 on Rob's post above. Also, if this is a 14.5 inch mid length, you really need to stick with 5.56 ammo as the gas system is tuned more toward the under gassed side of the spectrum. Where a fouled chamber may not be an issue with a carbine length gas system and 16" barrel, it could very well be with a 14.5 inch mid length.
Thanks for all the advice.
I now agree that screwing around trying to deal with too many variables at once is just going to drive me nuts.
After my last post yesterday I went back and cleaned the rifle and especially lubed the hell out of the BCG with 5W-30 synthetic motor oil. I've always tried to minimize getting oil on the bolt face or around the chamber but I put a drop on the ejector and worked it in and out to get it well lubed and make sure it was moving smoothly.
Motor oil is what I had... so I used it. I figured that if it didn't work I still wasn't out anything by trying it other than a half hour of my time and a box of ammo.
I only had time for twenty rounds today but I used the "known bad" lot of XM193 and had no failures. I'm going to lay hands on some better cleaning supplies shortly but at least I've established that when well lubed, the rifle still runs alright. I'm also really surprised that I needed that much lube - the other AR I owned and all the M-16's I used ran fine with a lot less lubrication so I figured I knew what I was doing in that regard. Then again, I've never owned a new AR-15 before with no wear to loosen things up before either.
Thanks for all the advice.
I now agree that screwing around trying to deal with too many variables at once is just going to drive me nuts.
After my last post yesterday I went back and cleaned the rifle and especially lubed the hell out of the BCG with 5W-30 synthetic motor oil. I've always tried to minimize getting oil on the bolt face or around the chamber but I put a drop on the ejector and worked it in and out to get it well lubed and make sure it was moving smoothly.
Motor oil is what I had... so I used it. I figured that if it didn't work I still wasn't out anything by trying it other than a half hour of my time and a box of ammo.
I only had time for twenty rounds today but I used the "known bad" lot of XM193 and had no failures. I'm going to lay hands on some better cleaning supplies shortly but at least I've established that when well lubed, the rifle still runs alright.
Good deal! :cool:
And keep us posted.
Nice job. You found the right forum, asked the right questions, and got the right responses. I experienced some of the same issues with my BCM 14.5" middy and went down the same path with success after reading posts here. After about 1k rounds I found that I needed less lube for 100% function but I still make it a rule to operate any AR I shoot appropriately wet.
Enjoy the rifle.
Yeah, I don't think it's an actual cycling issue. The recoil seems to feel the same regardless of whether the casing makes it out of the chamber or not. Truth is, I'm kind of not so impressed with BCM at this point. I like the AR, but if I need to contact the factory for a second defect on a new rifle, I am not going to be a happy customer.
Don't worry too much. BCM is top notch. Honestly, you can't do much better.
Even if you have to send it back, they pay for shipping and their turn around times are incredibly quick. I sent out my 16" BCM middy because I was having trouble with steel cased ammo on my new setup and I received it back 5-6 days after they had received it. They had my upper/bcg for less than 48 hours before sending it back.
The actual problem with mine was just a break-in period, it seems, because they couldn't find anything wrong and everything is working great now anyways. My upper was choking on every single round of steel cased 223 and after a few hundred rounds of 5.56 for break-in, it functions fine.
Here's what I did/my advice:
Clean the upper spotless, mainly the BCG inside and out, get any crud and carbon off from the bolt itself. Also make sure the chamber is nice and clean, not gunked up.
Get some quality lube such as Slip2000 (works wonders) or some motor oil. Lube the ****ing shit out of your BCG inside and out -- pretty much dripping wet. Make 100% sure you're getting the inside and the bolt itself very wet, all over. It should be messy.
Get a few hundred rounds of 5.56. Should not matter what kind as long as it's true NATO spec ammo. Lake City M193 is what I used, but M855 should work just as well.
Go to the range, and shoot strictly the NATO spec ammo through your dripping wet with lube upper. Use only an H buffer at this point.
Even if you experience some malfunctions, keep it going. Don't keep wiping the bolt down to remove carbon and shit. That's not needed. Just make sure it's lubed and if you're using quality lube then you shouldn't have to add more lube for quite awhile anyways.
After 400-500 rounds of NATO 5.56 through your nicely lubed upper/bcg running an H buffer, you should be fine. If you're still experiencing issues then send it back to BCM.
Canonshooter
04-16-12, 10:47
After about 1k rounds I found that I needed less lube for 100% function but I still make it a rule to operate any AR I shoot appropriately wet.
^^^This^^^
Once you get some rounds through it, it will probably be fine with .223 pressure loads as well. However, for anything other than range work, stick with 5.56 loads. I've never had any reliability issues with XM193 in any of my ARs.
Good to hear the problem is solved!
polymorpheous
04-17-12, 02:23
Steel is a ferrous metal and will oxidize. It must be coated with something to prevent rapid oxidation; laquer, polymer or plated with a non-ferrous metal. All the OP stated is "Tula" which is imported from Russia and is coated with either laquer or polymer.
It's also been "debated to death" that if you want to use cheap, commy-bloc steel-cased ammo in your AR and then have problems, don't bitch about the quality of the rifle until you're certain it runs with the ammo it was designed for.
So, back on topic; based on what the OP has described, it may be worth doing what I suggested. At least it eliminates one other possibility before losing the rifle for a few weeks and taking up BCM's time on something that might be operator error (ammo selection).
Edit; +1 on Rob's post above. Also, if this is a 14.5 inch mid length, you really need to stick with 5.56 ammo as the gas system is tuned more toward the under gassed side of the spectrum. Where a fouled chamber may not be an issue with a carbine length gas system and 16" barrel, it could very well be with a 14.5 inch mid length.
My post was misinterpreted.
I meant that the lacquer does not bake off in the chamber.
As far as the ammo the OP was using, the point is moot.
Tula ammo is polymer coated.
On all other points I agree completely.
Though my BCM runs crap ammo just fine, I rarely shoot the stuff.
As you said the guns are tuned to 5.56 pressure ammo.
My post was misinterpreted.
I meant that the lacquer does not bake off in the chamber.
As far as the ammo the OP was using, the point is moot.
Tula ammo is polymer coated.
On all other points I agree completely.
Though my BCM runs crap ammo just fine, I rarely shoot the stuff.
As you said the guns are tuned to 5.56 pressure ammo.
Yeah, I forgot to mention that the cases are polymer coated on the Tula stuff I tried.
Ironically, it ran fine in a relatively dry gun when XM193 wouldn't. I had no failures to feed, fire, or eject with that stuff eventhough it doesn't have sufficient power to lock the bolt back on an empty magazine most of the time.
Go figure...:confused:
Canonshooter
04-17-12, 17:06
My post was misinterpreted.
I meant that the lacquer does not bake off in the chamber.
My bad - apologies for the misinterpretation.
ridgerunner70
04-17-12, 18:55
I use Mobil 1 on my bcg and when it rains on it, it just beads off so I know it's protected:)
Just an update... I thought I had the FTE's taken care of with the change in lubrication but I was wrong. They started again the other day with my known good lot of XM-193 - which I went and bought more of just to break the rifle in some more. The upper is on its way back to BCM as soon as I can make it happen.
did you ever change out your buffer?
i have a feeling that is your problem...go with a standard buffer weight.
No, I didn't try a different buffer. The rifle was bought new from BCM and I figured they'd have built it right.
Apparently not.
If it's not something in the upper I'll ask them if that could be the problem.
Locked pending your outcome from BCM. - Robb Jensen
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