View Full Version : New M4 hits the market - part deux
apologies if this is old news to all the insiders here :)
http://www.charlesdaly.com/pdf/2008_cdd_msrp_pl_121007_rev4.pdf
The president posted that link in post #22 on this thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=328468 on THR.
I doubt very much if you will see a new B/A rifle from us any time soon. We intend to focus our resources on a new division of the company that will have its formal launch at the SHOT Show next month, Charles Daly Defense. See: http://www.charlesdaly.com/pdf/2008_...21007_rev4.pdf.
Just what the world needs, another AR-15/M-4!
I'll refrain from speculation, but I thought it was interesting. Specifically, this from post #32
...I realize the AR market may appear crowded, but we actually think that there will not be enough of these guns available during this election year and perhaps during the first 6 months after the election.
The Daewoo is a great rifle but the AR is extremely popular and we want to take our little share of this market during this time. Our AR's are 100% made in the US and the quality is going to surprise everyone. (Don't let the MSRP scare you away, the real world "street" prices will be considerably less $.)
The big domestic manufacturers have turned themselves into importers. I think it's time for an importer to become a domestic manufacutrer!
the more the merrier!
BushmasterFanBoy
01-04-08, 21:56
Good. Maybe when there is no company left that doesn't make AR's, they will finally have to be accepted.:)
It would be nice to have someone build a quality AR, but I just don't see Charles Daley being the one to do it.
The big domestic manufacturers have turned themselves into importers. I think it's time for an importer to become a domestic manufacutrer!
As I do not believe they have ever manufactured any of their products in house, this will be a first for them... I think it is likely that they are out sourcing most of the parts and assembling them in their shop... Just like everyone else does... There is no magic to this, use high quality parts, the correct tools, and follow the frigging assembly directions...
I understand that the owner fired the manager of the service department, after 20 years of him abusing customers. So with a new manager, and a new domestically produced product, they may surprise everyone...
We will see...
Just my .02
Buck
Any time I hear a manufacturer predicting the selling price to be substantially lower than their established MSRP I cringe. I guess Mr. Kassnar already knows his product is going to get whored and is not worth the price he himself set.
They look a lot like Bushmaster rifles!
What is so hard about making a GI style 20" rifle instead of this 1/9 HBAR crap all the time?
Robb Jensen
01-05-08, 23:38
What is so hard about making a GI style 20" rifle instead of this 1/9 HBAR crap all the time?
Lathe time = costs time...........which equals money!
Be optimistic instead of pessimistic it'll make you feel a whole lot better.
Or more simply put why not ask CD to make a Gov't profile 20" 1x7 AR instead of bitching that they don't?
marylandsniper
01-06-08, 11:43
Well if their handguns are any indication of the overall quality of the ar platform that will be trying (key word - trying) than it will be just like all the other tier 2 and 3 ar's i.e. DMPS, Bushmaster Double Star ect.
They are most likely bin parts from CMT similar to the S&W products with minimal QC upon assemply. No MP Bolt, barrel with a high sticker price. Sounds like a great deal :p
Well in defense of Charles Daly Defense, they do have
Chrome lined barrels even if it is 4140
M4 Feed ramps
F marked FSB
Double heat shield hand guards
The upper is T-marked
This is more than some of the established commercial AR makers are doing.
and the "LE" version on the 2nd page of that pdf says 4150
BushmasterFanBoy
01-06-08, 23:15
I saw the thread on TOS where this all started. CD said that their "LE" model was based off of "the chart". (Or what they were willing to compromise cost v. performance with)
and the "LE" version on the 2nd page of that pdf says 4150
That much better.
That much better.
...but it is the same price as a 6920.
Charles Daly
01-07-08, 17:07
Gentlmen,
My name is Michael Kassnar. I am president of K.B.I., Inc., manufacturers, importers and distributors of Charles Daly firearms.
As many of you already know, we have setup a new division of our company, Charles Daly Defense. This new division will be ofrering AR type rifles, tactical pumps, handguns and shotgun cartridges. These products will be introduced over the course of the next year with AR rifles coming first.
For starters I will place here a copy of a post I made in a thread at ar15.com that will help to explain our pricing and our intended position in the market. The entire thread can be viewed here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=348155.
(This post was originally made on November 20, 2007.)
The MSRP and the "street" are worlds apart. I've been in the firearms business for over 30 years and while I don't care for the practice, this MSRP pricing structure we have in this industry is the reality. It gives everyone in the chain of distribution the ability to give substantial discounts from publicly published prices. The wholesaler discounts from "Suggested Dealer" and the dealer can run an ad "On Sale" from MSRP.
While I cannot guarantee what the actual "street" prices will be, I can tell you that it might look something like this:
Model......MSRP......Street
D-M4..........1,119........899
D-M4LE.......1,169........939
D-M4S........1,079.........869
D-M4LX.......1,619........1,299
DR-15.........1,089........879
DV-24.........1,319........1,059
The quality of these rifles is outstanding. Our guns are a substantial step-up from Stag, Olympic, DPMS and basic RRA's. Our competition will be Bushmaster, and we will offer more features for the same or less money with a much higher quality in fit and finish.
The BCWA3F16M4 posted above is comparable (spec for spec) to our D-M4, and we add M4 feedramps and a few "minor" though nice enhancements like radiused mag release and trigger guard. And I will put our fit and finish ahead of them. BTW, the BM price goes up January 1st. That price increase was announced last week.
Our "loaded" model, the D-M4LX (MSRP = $1,619) is the equivalent of the BM Modular Carbine (MSRP = $1,745; same sights, same quad, same fluted H-Bar) plus M4 Feedramps, Ace M4 SOCOM buttstock and Phantom flash suppressor. We are including over $250 more in retail value for a lot less $$$. We understand that most of you are not interested in this model. You will want the basic M4 and then add on your own accessories. But for someone who wants a "loaded" (figuratively) model from the factory, this gun has it all at a reasonable price.
Some mention the Colt 6920. If you can find one, the price today will be closer to $1,400. Our D-M4LE will come in on the "street" for under $1,000.
Many of you (the majority actually) suggested that this (our D-M4LE) was the model you really wanted. A basic M4 carbine with 4150, 1X7 twist, M4 Feedramps, Mil-Spec diameter buffer tube and "H" buffer, "F" FSB with bayonet lug, T-Marked flattop upper, etc. With a "street" price of under $1,000, I think we've given you exactly what you asked for at a price that is extrememly competitive. What other manufacturer's give you all of thes features for this price?
Does BM offer M4 Feedramps as standard? Does BM T-Mark their flattops? Does BM, or anyone else, offer the equivalent features of our D-M4LE for a similar price? Do they offer a "Lifetime" repair policy?
And I guarantee the accuracy, function and finish of our rifles will be better than anyone at or near our price points.
I'm not bad mouthing any of our competitors. We have studied this market intensely and know exactly where we fit in. As I posted earlier in this thread, in 2008 the problem will not be suppliers trying to find consumers, it will be consumers trying to find quality guns.
The coming election, today's decision by the Supreme Court to hear the DC case on the 2nd Amendment, and other factors, will all contribute to high demand and tight supply of quality AR's over the next 18 months.
Charles Daly Defense will be able to supply high quality at "competitive" prices during this period and beyond, if the results of the next election permit us to stay in business.
If you carefully compare features for feature, you will see that we will have a place in this market.
Grant and I have been corresponding with each other. As soon as they are available (probably around the middle of February), I will be sending him a D-M4LE for T&E. I would ask that you please wait for his test results before speculating about the quality of our AR line. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
If you have any questions concerning Charles Daly, please post them here and I will do my best to answer you in a timely manner.
Sincerely,
Michael
Will you also use the Full Auto Bolt Group since it is one of the most common upgrades that end users get for their AR's?
1/7 twist, 4150 barrel steel, T-marks, mil-spec receiver extension and M4 feed ramps are all great but give the heart of the issued weapon as well (some new Colts and others are shipping with the FA BCG in place since in and of itself that part will not allow full auto functioning.)
I have no problem with dropping 1K+ on a rifle, but the quality and features have to be there in order to get my $$$.
Charles Daly
01-07-08, 20:52
Will you also use the Full Auto Bolt Group since it is one of the most common upgrades that end users get for their AR's?
1/7 twist, 4150 barrel steel, T-marks, mil-spec receiver extension and M4 feed ramps are all great but give the heart of the issued weapon as well (some new Colts and others are shipping with the FA BCG in place since in and of itself that part will not allow full auto functioning.)
I have no problem with dropping 1K+ on a rifle, but the quality and features have to be there in order to get my $$$.
Paradoc, we will not use the FA BCG. I have a copy of the letter from BATF to Colt Defense saying that while the part, in and of itself will not make a FA rifle, ATF can not authorize the use of it. I personally have a 6920 and keep a copy of that letter in my rifle case at all times, just in case someone in authority ever makes an issue out of it.
We don't think it is necessary to have a FABCG for reliable function. Colt can feel comfortable doing it as their receivers are blocked, ours are not.
Some more info about our rifles: all carrier keys have "proper" staking, a la Colt. Our castle nuts are also staked properly. We use the black extractor insert and Crane O-ring.
What else would you like to know? I will be happy to answer any questions.
Lathe time = costs time...........which equals money!
Be optimistic instead of pessimistic it'll make you feel a whole lot better.
Or more simply put why not ask CD to make a Gov't profile 20" 1x7 AR instead of bitching that they don't?
I know it equals money but people have been asking for a govt rifle for 20 years and not getting it.
Charles Daly
01-07-08, 23:20
I know it equals money but people have been asking for a govt rifle for 20 years and not getting it.
Scott, We are just getting started in this market segment and can't build a big assortment of rifles right away . Having said that, I promise you I'll look into what you are asking for and see what I can do. I'll post here with my results.
Scott, We are just getting started in this market segment and can't build a big assortment of rifles right away . Having said that, I promise you I'll look into what you are asking for and see what I can do. I'll post here with my results.
CD thank you for your responses in this thread... What I think what Scott is driving at is this… Several manufactures make a USGI type M4A1 style carbine as issued by the Army; However, no one seems to manufacture a USGI type A4 rifle as issued by the Marine Corps…
I think it would be very well received if you manufactured a high quality rifle and stayed close to GI spec… IMHO far better than an HBAR 20 inch rifle… Additionally in receiver markings less is more… Just a simple script with no logo… Something like:
CD Defense
Harrisburg, PA
CD15-A4
5.56 mm
US Property
Just my .02
Buck
P.S. Did you know that HBAR is actually Latin for unnecessarily heavy???
It seems that most Ar owners want to emulate a certain military setup. The M4 is the hot item of late. I think with ammo prices coming up, and possible negative legislation being on the horizon, the focus will shift to long range precision shooting to save cost, and extend the rifle's useful life.
If you just watch the current trends in accessories, you will get the idea of what people want in an AR.
Scott, We are just getting started in this market segment and can't build a big assortment of rifles right away . Having said that, I promise you I'll look into what you are asking for and see what I can do. I'll post here with my results.
Yes I realize this. IMHO, the HBAR should not be in your product line unless it has NM enhancements.
Releasing GI style HBARs just perpetuates the existence of a rifle that should have never existed in the first place.
Scott, We are just getting started in this market segment and can't build a big assortment of rifles right away . Having said that, I promise you I'll look into what you are asking for and see what I can do. I'll post here with my results.
Micheal I tried to call you yesterday but you were in a meeting. I will drop you a PM.
Will you be offering barrel group , stripped lowers or complete uppers or just complete rifles?
Charles Daly
01-08-08, 21:44
Will you be offering barrel group , stripped lowers or complete uppers or just complete rifles?
Mike, we are initially offering stripped lowers and complete lowers. By late February we will be adding complete uppers. Give us some time. We will be adding products as fast as we can get them into production while maintaining QC.
Thanks for the inquiry,
Michael
...We will be adding products as fast as we can get them into production while maintaining QC.
Glad to see that last little qualifier.
ar_mcadams
01-09-08, 21:09
I would like to see a close up picture of the lowers. Any plans for a 14.5 inch 1450 cmv chrome lined m4 barrel?
Charles Daly
01-10-08, 12:26
I would like to see a close up picture of the lowers. Any plans for a 14.5 inch 1450 cmv chrome lined m4 barrel?
We will receive our first production samples tomorrow and will post pics of the lowers early next week.
As mentioned above, several additional models will be added as soon as we can sort out exactly what to bring to market and when to put it into production. It would appear that a 14.5" should be a good seller so I would expect that to move to the top of the list. We will keep you informed at m4carbine.net as soon as we have more information.
We will receive our first production samples tomorrow and will post pics of the lowers early next week.
As mentioned above, several additional models will be added as soon as we can sort out exactly what to bring to market and when to put it into production. It would appear that a 14.5" should be a good seller so I would expect that to move to the top of the list. We will keep you informed at m4carbine.net as soon as we have more information.
You also should be looking into a 14.5" lightweight with 1/7 twist.
Failure2Stop
01-11-08, 12:12
You also should be looking into a 14.5" lightweight with 1/7 twist.
This would induce smiley faces in many of my friends.
Charles Daly
01-18-08, 14:49
We are pleased to announce that we have launched our new website, Charles Daly Defense. You can visit it here: http://www.charlesdalydefense.com.
This is a "catalog" site only now, but in the near future (after SHOT Show) we will turn this into an e-commerce site where you will be able to order non-FFL items online, including uppers, magazines and accessories.
Please remember that the MSRP shown is "suggested" only. Street prices will be considerably lower.
If you have any questions or comments feel free to post here and we will do our best to answer you.
Michael
I just wanted to say welcome to the show and congrats. I hope you guys do very well. The price of your lowers, and hell complete rifles for that matter, are fantastic. I know allot of people think of CD as 3rd tier but I have one of your products and have been more than happy with it and your customer service (IMHO thats a big part of the purchase decision). Keep up with the QC on your end and I'm sure you will have lots of happy customers.
Again congrats.
S/F
Remember911
01-19-08, 14:21
I say the more the marrier. This only keeps or rights to bear arms stronger. I am a FFL holder and looking forward to doing Biss with them.
Charles Daly
01-24-08, 11:32
Do you believe this? Our lawyers have advised us to stop using the words "Street Prices" in any of our postings. Apparently, the antis have used this phrase as evidence that our guns are going to be sold on "the street"!
From now on, there will be MSRP and RWRP (Real World Retail Price).
I am getting tired, real tired of this crap. What's next?
Scott, We are just getting started in this market segment and can't build a big assortment of rifles right away . Having said that, I promise you I'll look into what you are asking for and see what I can do. I'll post here with my results.
This is exciting news as I am getting ready to do a 20" build. Bring some GTG parts to market and I'll buy.
I'm very interested in the D-M4LE. Maybe I'd have better luck with it than I did my M&P.
Seth Harness
04-18-08, 18:09
I say the more the marrier. This only keeps or rights to bear arms stronger.
I sure hope so.
Seth Harness
04-18-08, 18:13
Do you believe this? Our lawyers have advised us to stop using the words "Street Prices" in any of our postings. Apparently, the antis have used this phrase as evidence that our guns are going to be sold on "the street"!
From now on, there will be MSRP and RWRP (Real World Retail Price).
I am getting tired, real tired of this crap. What's next?
Complete grab-assticated jack-assery. You know if someone is really that stupid, sorry mentally challenged they should be in a home where they can get the attention they deserve. :confused: MORONS :confused:
Heavy Metal
04-18-08, 18:51
1) Will your carriers be ramped in the firing pin area?
2) Might I suggest a standard (some call this lightweight or A1) profile mid-length gas system rifle with 4150 CMV and the feature set you describe would sell like hotcakes.
Heavy Metal
04-18-08, 18:56
I suggest you consider the magpul PRS as an option for the DV-24.
Ned Christiansen
04-18-08, 20:12
Mr. K, welcome!
I wish you and your company the best of luck in the AR field. For my part I find it a good omen that you are talking and listening!
Good to see you here. Worth taking a look at.Thanks for being up front.
This is a old thread,. I dont think he has been here for awhile.
Charles Daly
04-18-08, 22:16
This is a old thread,. I dont think he has been here for awhile.
He's still here....lurking...:D
And I'm as surprised as anybody to see this thread resurrected! The timing is eerie as I just sent Grant one of our new D-M4LE's for T&E today. Also, the check went out for advertising here on M4C so you will start seeing our banner soon. And (fingers crossed very tightly) if all goes well with the T&E I'm hoping you'll be hearing a lot more from us. We finally started shipping to the trade just 10 days/2 weeks ago.
He's still here....lurking...:D
The proper term for you is "gathering intel". Rumor has it that you have been very busy lately.... :)
All right! Now who in central PA/companys are you letting to sell these? :D
He's still here....lurking...:D
And I'm as surprised as anybody to see this thread resurrected! The timing is eerie as I just sent Grant one of our new D-M4LE's for T&E today. Also, the check went out for advertising here on M4C so you will start seeing our banner soon. And (fingers crossed very tightly) if all goes well with the T&E I'm hoping you'll be hearing a lot more from us. We finally started shipping to the trade just 10 days/2 weeks ago.
I look forward to receiving my T&E gun!
C4
Heavy Metal
04-19-08, 18:30
I look forward to receiving my T&E gun!
C4
You have my dream job!
You have my dream job!
LOL, really? I would adopt higher standards. ;)
C4
You have my dream job!
I always wanted to be a quality control inspector for a house of ill repute...
Charles Daly
04-19-08, 20:13
All right! Now who in central PA/companys are you letting to sell these? :D
recon: If your dealer doesn't have them in yet, have them call two of our wholesalers in central PA that do; Bonitz Brothers in Harrisburg and Ron Shirk in Lebanon. JSC (Jerry's Sport Center) in Forest City (near Scranton) has them also. All three should have the D-M4 in stock and give them another week to get the D-M4LE in.
Charles Daly
04-20-08, 08:13
1) Will your carriers be ramped in the firing pin area?
2) Might I suggest a standard (some call this lightweight or A1) profile mid-length gas system rifle with 4150 CMV and the feature set you describe would sell like hotcakes.
Heavy Metal: Thanks for your posts. I'm not sure what you mean by "ramped in the firing pin area". Our bolt carriers have a "shrouded" firing pin. Is this what you mean?
As to number 2, do you have a mole in our company? ;)
And Ned and DogRanger, thanks for your encouraging posts. As many of you know, we are rookies in the AR world and by reading, asking and listening we are learning what we need to do for Charles Daly Defense to succeed.
Charles Daly
04-20-08, 08:21
Here is the receiver engraving on our rifles and carbines. Let us know what you think! (Sorry that the lighting is not so good!)
http://www.charlesdalydefense.com/images/side_engraving_closeup.jpg
WOW! that looks really nice. Good luck with your foray into the AR-15 world - I hope it bears fruit for you. It will be interesting to see how your product holds up to the rigors of testing and also to how competitively priced you will be - would be nice to see a combination of high quality and affordability in a market saturated with a mix of the not so good, just plain awful and too rich for my blood AR-15's.....
recon: If your dealer doesn't have them in yet, have them call two of our wholesalers in central PA that do; Bonitz Brothers in Harrisburg and Ron Shirk in Lebanon. JSC (Jerry's Sport Center) in Forest City (near Scranton) has them also. All three should have the D-M4 in stock and give them another week to get the D-M4LE in.
Very good! I live in the Harrisburg area. I'll contact my dealer and see what he can get. Thanks! :D
Your receiver markings are fine.
Now you may want to think about doing a lefty version of the AR. It would give Stag Arms some competion and help with prices on that design. Just a thought.
can you give us some pics of the radiused mag release and trigger guard?
just curious.
Heavy Metal
04-20-08, 12:04
Heavy Metal: Thanks for your posts. I'm not sure what you mean by "ramped in the firing pin area". Our bolt carriers have a "shrouded" firing pin. Is this what you mean?
As to number 2, do you have a mole in our company? ;)
And Ned and DogRanger, thanks for your encouraging posts. As many of you know, we are rookies in the AR world and by reading, asking and listening we are learning what we need to do for Charles Daly Defense to succeed.
1) Yes!
2) No, just a good feel for what the market wants. Take as many positive features as you can and roll them into one package. Glad to hear we seem to be on the same wavelength!
Heavy Metal: Thanks for your posts. I'm not sure what you mean by "ramped in the firing pin area". Our bolt carriers have a "shrouded" firing pin. Is this what you mean?
As to number 2, do you have a mole in our company? ;)
And Ned and DogRanger, thanks for your encouraging posts. As many of you know, we are rookies in the AR world and by reading, asking and listening we are learning what we need to do for Charles Daly Defense to succeed.
You are a new player, but your interest in consumer feedback and honesty is a very good sign of things to come.
C4
What grant said plus customer service is a big one! Do that right and have a good product at a decent price then you will do well. :D
My review on the LE M4: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=155962#post155962
C4
Between this and the other thread, I have to know...who in Florida are going to be the first to carry these?
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