View Full Version : Need Advice: Fixed or Folding Rear Iron?
Grayling14
04-15-12, 17:41
I need a rear iron sight to accompany an F-marked front. I'm planning on irons being the set up for this rig, probably no optics on this anytime soon.
I think that it was here that I read a post saying fixed is a better choice for a platform dedicated to irons. True, maybe, not?
Numerous searches did not bring up a related thread.
What are the pros and cons of each type? What does experience tell you about the differences between the quality brands?
depends on your needs. a folding rear is designed to accommodate an optic. i had a Troy folding with a red dot. got rid of the red dot and got a quality carry handle and i could not be happier. i love irons!! in short...i would get a good fixed rear if you don't plan on using an optic.
No optic = fixed rear sight in my opinion.
If you have no intention of getting an optic in the future, then you'll save money by going fixed. Larue or DD would be good options. I don't see how a folding BUIS really makes any sense in an "irons only" application, but maybe you had some thoughts on this.
If you do think you might get an optic, then you'll need to consider what type of BUIS you should get. If a conventional scope is in the future perhaps, then you should look at a folding BUIS. If a RDS, then you'll need to decide which way to go.
Carry handle is the way to go.. Classic.. I find them tremendously functional. Ron
Agree with other posts. If you may one day get an optic, I say go with a folder. I can't stand having a rear sight between my eye and the scope. I can deal with it... But I will never choose that option.
As for brands, I prefer Troy for both folding and fixed. They are the only maker I've found who put the cup on the correct side of the small aperture - that is, away from the shooter.
If irons only, definitely a fixed rear. Much more robust, durable, and of course, accurate due to its rigid nature.
Search worked for me: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69781
With a RDS, using lower 1/3 co-witness, I prefer a fixed rear sight. I was initially opposed to the idea, and I had a Troy folding rear on my gun. I was hesitant to the fixed rear because I *thought* it would clutter my view, or distract me from the dot.
But after having some formal training, and just doing lots of drills, I switched over to the Daniel Defense A 1.5. I've found that I don't even notice the sight, and I have the added benefit of having the sight ready to go if I need it, nothing to flip up or fumble for.
That's my reasoning. If I had to do it all over again, I'd go straight to the fixed rear sight. But you don't know what you don't know, and it is largely a person choice as to what you want to use.
Before I got a RDS, my carbine wore a Troy fixed rear. With the RDS, I am much happier to use a flip-up rear sight. However, if I were to lose my RDS permanently, that Troy would go back on. It is a great sight...rugged and accurate. I see no reason to use anything else on an irons-only weapon.
Although somewhat pricy ($110), Rock River makes an excellent A2 stand-alone rear sight. Since I had no intentions of buying an optic, I replaced the back up sight on my SIG M400 and couldn't be happier. The Rock River sight is build very solid, has two cross pins, and fits snug and secure.
If you would still like to get a back up sight, I am selling the factory sight from my Sig for $60. PM for pics.
ComradeBoris
04-16-12, 00:07
I chose to go with a fixed rear on my rifle. I like the flip up sights offering an unobstructed view, but if I have to make a shot already having my rear up and ready to go is a personal choice I am going to make. YMMV
Although somewhat pricy ($110), Rock River makes an excellent A2 stand-alone rear sight. Since I had no intentions of buying an optic, I replaced the back up sight on my SIG M400 and couldn't be happier. The Rock River sight is build very solid, has two cross pins, and fits snug and secure.
If you would still like to get a back up sight, I am selling the factory sight from my Sig for $60. PM for pics.
Wow. The Rock River is a ripoff of the LMT and costs just as much. The genuine LMT sight retails for around $120 although you can often find it on sale for $60'ish -- also this price on Ebay. Great sight, the LMT one is. I don't trust anything with Rock River on it and especially not for that price. Also, LMT is going to add significantly more value to your rifle than any Rock River branded crap.
I've been using the sight for awhile and have not had any problems. It's an A+ sight no doubt about it. The newer generation ones are also more light weight -- mine weighs a few oz's. I say get the genuine LMT rear sight, which is used throughout our military and special forces, and not some commercialized copy of it.
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/botach_2203_771028564
With a modern (post-modern?) shooting and zero technique designed around dynamic shooting events, I think the A2 rear sight is overkill, and in some ways even less than ideal.
All the knobs and widgets are unnecessary in a modern "set it and forget it" approach to the sights and zero. Very few people are fiddling with the sight while shooting to dial in to a pre-set distance on the knob, and if you're not using the whole set and the correct ammo and barrel length the knob may even be incorrect. Factor in a non-same-plane aperture (the center of the big hole and the small hole are not the same distance from the bore), and it's antiquated, heavy, complex, and unnecessary.
The Daniel Defense fixed rear is a good one, as is the Larue, as they remove some of the fiddling and the unnecessary knobs, but they both still maintain the non-same-plane aperture, and if you replace the stock part with a same-plane aperture you wind up with a small hole that is, IMO, bigger than optimal.
When I was on a quest for a fixed rear sight for the flattop on the BCM Dissipator I have, I wanted minimal adjustment (windage only and no knobs I'm not going to use), rigid mounting (no throw lever), same-plane apertures (zero remains the same between apertures), and aperture sizes as close as possible to the A2 sizes. The Troy fixed rear (http://store.troyind.com/Rear_Fixed_Rail_Sight_p/ssig-frs-r0bt-00.htm) was the only sight I found that came close. The only place it came up short is that (IIRC) the small aperture is slightly larger than the A2 small aperture, but otherwise it meets all of my criteria and I am very happy with it.
If you're only going to be using the rear sight without optic for the time being you can buy the folding version of the same sight that has all of the above plus the ability to fold down later when you don't need it or need the space to clear your optic.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/BCM/photo-22.jpg
I will dissent of popular opinion. It is personal preference!
With RDS, I prefer folding rear, fixed front. If my optic goes down, I can still use it as a huge rear sight, and then flip up the rear later. If the optic is working, then the rear sight just gets in my way.
Doc Safari
04-16-12, 11:00
Search worked for me: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69781
With a RDS, using lower 1/3 co-witness, I prefer a fixed rear sight. I was initially opposed to the idea, and I had a Troy folding rear on my gun. I was hesitant to the fixed rear because I *thought* it would clutter my view, or distract me from the dot.
But after having some formal training, and just doing lots of drills, I switched over to the Daniel Defense A 1.5. I've found that I don't even notice the sight, and I have the added benefit of having the sight ready to go if I need it, nothing to flip up or fumble for.
That's my reasoning. If I had to do it all over again, I'd go straight to the fixed rear sight. But you don't know what you don't know, and it is largely a person choice as to what you want to use.
I made pretty much the same conclusions for the same reasons. For irons only I did prefer the carry handle, though.
RDS at 1/3 cowitness = fixed rear
absolute cowitness = folding
Canonshooter
04-16-12, 11:20
I have nothing to add to the good advice given above other than this;
If one day you decide to go with a RDS and if you have astigmatism, viewing the dot through the small rear sight aperture helps tremendously. In that case, a fixed rear BUIS with a lower 1/3 co-witness RDS mount works nicely - look over the irons through the RDS for the fast/close work and through the rear BUIS to make the dot sharper for the long precision shots. It's quick and effective.
IMO, for now I would just go with a LaRue, Troy or DD fixed BUIS. Even if you decide to go with folder in the future, you will have no problem selling a quality fixed rear BUIS in the EE forum.
I currently have a fixed Larue behind the Aimpoint for a lower 1/3 co-witness on my SBR. This is completely functional and it simply works. However, I am not sure it will remain there as, like Rob put it, it's kind of overkill, even though they are simpler than a standard A2 sight mentioned earlier.
The Larue, while not distracting, still seems to be in the way, and I cannot help but feel that I might be better served by a folder.
It really is a matter for the individual to decide. I personally prefer it to be fixed even with a RDS. It is one less point of failure and ever since a SJPD SWAT officer had his RDS die and a really important point in his life I have made sure the folding irons are up on my patrol rifle.
If the chief ever lets us carry our own ARs it will be fixed for me. If the rifle comes with a carry handle sight I might just hacksaw off the front half the way surf does it. Or I will go with the DD A1.5 sight. Even if I put a RDS on it I will leave it fixed. The only way I personally I would go with a folding is if I had a traditional scope on the rifle and due to eye relief issues folding was the only way it would work.
Wow. The Rock River is a ripoff of the LMT and costs just as much. The genuine LMT sight retails for around $120 although you can often find it on sale for $60'ish -- also this price on Ebay. Great sight, the LMT one is. I don't trust anything with Rock River on it and especially not for that price. Also, LMT is going to add significantly more value to your rifle than any Rock River branded crap.
I've been using the sight for awhile and have not had any problems. It's an A+ sight no doubt about it. The newer generation ones are also more light weight -- mine weighs a few oz's. I say get the genuine LMT rear sight, which is used throughout our military and special forces, and not some commercialized copy of it.
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/botach_2203_771028564
Funny you should say that, my Rock River sight just fell apart the other day. Springs, pins and all just dropped right out. I'm very disappointed with myself, I've been deceived again. Where were you when I was looking for a rear sight!?
Grayling14
04-16-12, 23:24
[QUOTE=SteadyUp;1283856]Search worked for me: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69781
It sure did, although I don't know how!
Nearly a dozen similar search terms did not produce that thread for me. Not only that, but when I now do a search with the same exact title as your link above, it returns with a "Sorry, no matches" response, (although the link works fine).
By the way, Thank you. I will read that in addition to what comes up here.
Grayling14
04-16-12, 23:53
If you have no intention of getting an optic in the future, then you'll save money by going fixed. Larue or DD would be good options. I don't see how a folding BUIS really makes any sense in an "irons only" application, but maybe you had some thoughts on this.
If you do think you might get an optic, then you'll need to consider what type of BUIS you should get. If a conventional scope is in the future perhaps, then you should look at a folding BUIS. If a RDS, then you'll need to decide which way to go.
No intention of optic at this time b/c of $$$. I took the long-standing advice espoused here by those 'in the know', and instead of getting an "as good as" I ordered from up the ladder.
My thoughts on a folder for 'irons only' were only conjecture, since I do not have any experience with them. That's why I am asking you.
I have a decent quality conventional 8X32 sitting on the shelf, but I don't know about putting it on an AR; it just seems like it would be out of place, more like it should be on a bolt gun.
gunfighter48
04-17-12, 00:53
Nothing is really out of place on a AR 15!! I have a 4X12X44 that I used for hunting Pdogs in Montana, did good out to 350yrds. I would go with a folding rear sight. You may not want an optic now but at some point you will want to try some different options, Holosight, reddot, or scope. Get a good folding sight and you'll be ready when the time comes. The folders today are excellent sights and do just fine, hold their zero, and are tough.
It sure did, although I don't know how!
Nearly a dozen similar search terms did not produce that thread for me. Not only that, but when I now do a search with the same exact title as your link above, it returns with a "Sorry, no matches" response, (although the link works fine).
By the way, Thank you. I will read that in addition to what comes up here.
Try using the orange search button, near the top right of the screen. It links to google search engine, that tends to work a little better than the one used on this site.
LaRue fixed for me.
It behind a Aimpoint Micro on a Larue lower 1/3rd mount. VFZ option on the BUIS saves you $25 too.
H
Beat Trash
04-17-12, 15:32
I run a Troy folding BUIS with an Aimpoint T-1 with the LaRue 1/3 co-witness. This is a great sight. But if I were to do it again, I'd go with a fixed rear sight.
I found that no matter the adjustment level of the RDO, the dot is fuzzy for me. (I have 47 yr old eyes and reading glasses are no longer optional.). I find that if I look through the BUIS, the dot isn't fuzzy at all. I keep the sight up when I need to take a precise shot for this reason.
This year during the day of training and qualification, I kept the rear sight up the entire day. Never really noticed it at all.
I went with the folding sight because I thought it would bug me looking through the BUIS at the red dot. Apparently it doesn't.
Red dot optic, folding rear sight.
Since you won't be using irons as your primary, get them out of the way. I have come to prefer the MBUS because they're cheap, light, and they're spring loaded.
Ouroborous
04-17-12, 16:42
Chopped colt carry handle on a 6920 with an FSB and an aimpoint T-1 on a tall Larue mount for me. I've had no issue ignoring the front and rear sight when using the T1.
As many have stated, a fixed rear sight is the way to go. I grew up on an A2 rifle, so I'm biased towards an A2-style of iron sights. I was taught to memorize my "come-ups" for different ranges, and if I were forced to use an A1 flip sight I'd feel like a lost ball in high weeds.
Having said that, I suggest going to J&T Distributing and check out their M4-style carry handle sights. I have one, and it's a good quality piece, with a "Brass Aluminum Forging Enterprises" forge code, and 1/2 by 1/2 minute adjustments. And, if later on you decide to add optics, a hack-saw, a file, some aluminum-black, and a little elbow grease gets you a fixed BUIS pretty much identical to the YHM for a LOT less money - they want $75.00 for it.
Daniel defense fixed rear is nice but no elevation adjustment only windage
Daniel defense fixed rear is nice but no elevation adjustment only windage
elevation adjustment is done at the front sight with the AR.
1371USMCFL
04-18-12, 10:14
elevation adjustment is done at the front sight with the AR.
He was probably referencing dialing elevation for different distances, not zeroing.
I use LMT fixed and KAC micro flip. I am not partial to either as long as I can dial elevation for different ranges. Probably just the Marine in me.
elevation adjustment is done at the front sight with the AR.
Thank you very much for pointing out the obvious Mr.S. i was however, talking about the elevation range knob on standard A2 sights, maybe this is not something you're familiar with.
Thank you very much for pointing out the obvious Mr.S. i was however, talking about the elevation range knob on standard A2 sights, maybe this is not something you're familiar with.
It is a back up iron sight. Do you really NEED adjustable elevation on a backup sight? I doubt it.
PrivateCitizen
04-18-12, 20:18
I run a DD 1.5 fixed on everything that is not a magnified optic and am very happy.
I rarely notice it and am just happy it is "just there" when I 'drop' to the iron site 'view.'
Thank you very much for pointing out the obvious Mr.S. i was however, talking about the elevation range knob on standard A2 sights, maybe this is not something you're familiar with.
Yes, as an antiquated and outdated method, I am familiar with thinking I know how far away something is and turning a knob to match what I think it is, and how pointless that is anywhere other than the KD range.
:dance3:
Grayling14
04-18-12, 22:03
. . .
All the knobs and widgets are unnecessary in a modern "set it and forget it" approach to the sights and zero. Very few people are fiddling with the sight while shooting to dial in to a pre-set distance on the knob, and if you're not using the whole set and the correct ammo and barrel length the knob may even be incorrect. Factor in a non-same-plane aperture (the center of the big hole and the small hole are not the same distance from the bore), and it's antiquated, heavy, complex, and unnecessary.
The Daniel Defense fixed rear is a good one, as is the Larue, as they remove some of the fiddling and the unnecessary knobs, but they both still maintain the non-same-plane aperture, and if you replace the stock part with a same-plane aperture you wind up with a small hole that is, IMO, bigger than optimal.
. . . I wanted minimal adjustment (windage only and no knobs I'm not going to use), rigid mounting (no throw lever), same-plane apertures (zero remains the same between apertures) . . .
I was not familiar with 'same/non-same -plane apertures' when the above info was posted, so I went searching through some of the necro-threads, and this is what I came up with:
Same-Plane Aperture Sight
*small aperture- for zeroing the rifle at a chosen distance, and accuracy.
*large aperture- for closer distances/fast work, faster target acquisition due to larger sight picture.
Non-Same-Plane Aperture Sight
*large aperture- gives a zero a chosen distance.
*small aperture- sits higher in elevation above the bore than that of the large aperture and thus gives a second 'zero' at a distance farther away.
Is that correct?
I was not familiar with 'same/non-same -plane apertures' when the above info was posted, so I went searching through some of the necro-threads, and this is what I came up with:
Same-Plane Aperture Sight
*small aperture- for zeroing the rifle at a chosen distance, and accuracy.
*large aperture- for closer distances/fast work, faster target acquisition due to larger sight picture.
Non-Same-Plane Aperture Sight
*large aperture- gives a zero a chosen distance.
*small aperture- sits higher in elevation above the bore than that of the large aperture and thus gives a second 'zero' at a distance farther away.
Is that correct?
Pretty much. I ran a search on this a few months ago and IIRC the difference in POI is 3.5MOA for carbine and 2.5MOA for rifle. The thread did not specify for Midlength.
I think there were some other variables but I can't remember them now. I looked it up because I saw some guys zeroing the pool rifles we have for patrol and they were using the small aperature even though most people shoot with the large aperature. My conclusion was at the distance we were likely to use them and the shots we were likely to be making it wasn't going to be a big deal. Probably.
1371USMCFL
04-19-12, 18:55
Yes, as an antiquated and outdated method, I am familiar with thinking I know how far away something is and turning a knob to match what I think it is, and how pointless that is anywhere other than the KD range.
:dance3:
You make me want to punch a puppy and throw it off a cliff.
Just my' thoughts. . . But I bought a DD 1.5. It is a great iron sight. Light and it works.
I just bought a Larue scope mount for a 2-7 for deer hunting, and I'll probably replace the sight with a Troy or something just so I don't have to pull out the screwdriver every time I go hunting.
You can always keep a folding sight up, you can't fold a fixed sight.
Search worked for me: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69781
With a RDS, using lower 1/3 co-witness, I prefer a fixed rear sight. I was initially opposed to the idea, and I had a Troy folding rear on my gun. I was hesitant to the fixed rear because I *thought* it would clutter my view, or distract me from the dot.
But after having some formal training, and just doing lots of drills, I switched over to the Daniel Defense A 1.5. I've found that I don't even notice the sight, and I have the added benefit of having the sight ready to go if I need it, nothing to flip up or fumble for.
That's my reasoning. If I had to do it all over again, I'd go straight to the fixed rear sight. But you don't know what you don't know, and it is largely a person choice as to what you want to use.
This. All day long.:dance3:
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