View Full Version : Spikes/PSA 14.5" home defense build (red tiger stripe)
Bizzarolibe
04-17-12, 18:09
Hi all, just figured I'd show off my recently completed HD build. Here are some pics:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/Snarky15/ARE5.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/Snarky15/ARE4.jpg
Specs (lower):
PSA lower
PSA LPK
Magpul CTR stock
Magpul MIAD grip
Magpul ASAP end plate
Magpul MOE trigger guard
Spikes Tactical ST-T2 buffer
Specs (upper):
Spikes Tactical "Elite" 14.5" upper w/ FN CHF barrel
Pinned/welded Vortex FH
Spikes Tactical NiB BCG
Centurion Arms C4 rail (12")
Streamlight TLR-1 w/ remote switch
Aimpoint T-1 w/Aimpoint mount
Magpul RVG
Troy rail covers
Magpul MBUS (front and rear)
I chose the 14.5" barrel because it was the shortest I could go without having to go class III (and I've already got a 16" AR). Considering my present circumstances, SBR's, suppressors, and other such wonderful things are out of the question. I picked the Spikes because it has all the "desireable" features, and the barrel profile seemed ideal to me. I never have been a fan of the pencil barrels.
The optic I chose because it's simple and I can leave it on, which just means that's one less thing I have to remember to do in the very unlikely event I'll ever have to use it. I used to be an Eotech guy (I have an Eothingy on my other rifle), but I'm quickly becoming an Aimpoint fan. The light I chose because it was lighweight, bright, and was the right price. I like where the switch is because it's where my thumb naturally sits when I grip the rifle.
Weight was one of my primary considerations for this build, so I tried to keep everything as light as I could without compromising functionality or durability. As it is, it's very light considering how much stuff is on it. The rail system was the lightest 2-piece rail I could find, and I was unfortunately limited to 2-piece rails since the muzzle device is permanantly attached.
As for the furniture, well, I've just always liked Magpul furniture. It feels good to me, and I like the CTR's friction lock. I can't say that I would change anything about this rifle at this point. I can't really think of a more ideal setup without getting into the class III game.
The pattern was done using a dye process I hit upon by chance. I prefer dye as it won't chip or scratch like paint. In any case, this thing handles better than any other AR I've owned. It's been 100% reliable and very accurate.
hatchtrikk
04-17-12, 19:31
Seems pretty solid/well thought out.
That being said, I would hate to try and explain to a jury why my rifle looks like something off of a violent video game.
IMO, a home defense rifle should be as plain as possible. Should the situation arise, it won't seem like you were itching to get into a firefight.
Just my .02:D
Rex
You will be well camo'd if you live in front of a Pollock painting.
IYAAYASwarrior
04-17-12, 19:38
Rifle looks good. I am not a big fan of crazy paint, but it does look good.
Not something you see every day. Cool.
greenhornet-1
04-17-12, 20:40
Neat looking rifle!!!
looks good
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
You do know that ST and PSA don't like it each other right?? :D
C4
Please knock off the "it won't stand a chance in front of a jury" nonsense. If you conduct yourself accordingly and your shoot is righteous (especially in your own home) the weapon that you used is insignificant.
Seems pretty solid/well thought out.
That being said, I would hate to try and explain to a jury why my rifle looks like something off of a violent video game.
IMO, a home defense rifle should be as plain as possible. Should the situation arise, it won't seem like you were itching to get into a firefight.
Just my .02:D
Rex
Please knock off the "it won't stand a chance in front of a jury" nonsense. If you conduct yourself accordingly and your shoot is righteous (especially in your own home) the weapon that you used is insignificant.
Exactly. The weapon used doesn't mean a thing. Awesome looking rifle OP
Bizzarolibe
04-17-12, 22:58
You do know that ST and PSA don't like it each other right?? :D
C4
Hm, well I don't think my rifle got the memo :D
hatchtrikk
04-18-12, 00:09
Please knock off the "it won't stand a chance in front of a jury" nonsense. If you conduct yourself accordingly and your shoot is righteous (especially in your own home) the weapon that you used is insignificant.
I agree 100% that the weapon used has nothing to with a clean shoot. The way things should be and the way things are, are two entirely different things.
I learned of a case where a perp broke into a persons home through the skylight in his kitchen. Upon landing, he slipped on a skateboard and injured himself. He sued the homeowner AND WON. Maybe that's just internet banter, but why chance it?
It's obvious that sometimes the justice system doesn't always allow justice to prevail.
I didn't say anything about it 'not standing a chance' or anything like that, I simply stated my opinion.
Again, just IMO, YMMV, etc.
Cheers,
Rex
I learned of a case where a perp broke into a persons home through the skylight in his kitchen. Upon landing, he slipped on a skateboard and injured himself. He sued the homeowner AND WON. Maybe that's just internet banter, but why chance it?
Source? And "I heard it on the interwebs" doesn't cut it.
To the OP, nice looking rifle. The coloring isn't my style, and I'm not a fan of Spike's, but I like how you set it up. If you shoot the shit out of it, take a class or two, and it works, that's all that matters.
Did you do the tiger stripe yourself?
Just so your thread is official (and because inquiring minds want to know), please explain why you chose the parts you did over the others, what it's built for and did it live up to your expectations? How does it shoot, what about your rifle do you like and what would you wish you had done differently?
That red is pretty intense for a dye job
Not a fan of the dye job, but that's a personal preference thing. Nice rifle overall.....looks like a solid set up and quality parts. It should serve you well.
Try some 69gr ammo when you for your accuracy testing. I built one like exactly like that with the exception of a DD handguard, dye job, and H buffer and its proven to be very accurate and reliable.
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fallenromeo
04-18-12, 11:44
I like the rifle overall. Not a fan of the stripes personally, but everything else is very nice.
Bizzarolibe
04-18-12, 12:00
Source? And "I heard it on the interwebs" doesn't cut it.
To the OP, nice looking rifle. The coloring isn't my style, and I'm not a fan of Spike's, but I like how you set it up. If you shoot the shit out of it, take a class or two, and it works, that's all that matters.
I'm not a fan of Spikes as far as they conduct their business (I just saw the thread where they totally pooped on PSA in PSA's own industry forum--not cool), but I've never had a problem with their products. I have another rifle from them that's seen well over 1000 rounds downrange (which I realize isn't that much) and have yet to experience a single malfunction.
The nice thing about this middy is that it will eat literally ANYTHING, including Tula and Wolf (unlike certain other 14.5" middies from certain other companies ;)). And I don't run it super wet either.
I'm not a fan of Spikes as far as they conduct their business (I just saw the thread where they totally pooped on PSA in PSA's own industry forum--not cool), but I've never had a problem with their products. I have another rifle from them that's seen well over 1000 rounds downrange (which I realize isn't that much) and have yet to experience a single malfunction.
The nice thing about this middy is that it will eat literally ANYTHING, including Tula and Wolf (unlike certain other 14.5" middies from certain other companies ;)). And I don't run it super wet either.
If you have a 14.5" middy that eats out of spec ammo, that just means that it is over gassed (which isn't a good thing BTW). ;)
C4
If you have a 14.5" middy that eats out of spec ammo, that just means that it is over gassed (which isn't a good thing BTW). ;)
C4
Does that just apply to 14.5 mids? Because I've ran all kinds of Wolf Mil Classic through my DD 10.3s and 11.5s with no problems.
Does that just apply to 14.5 mids? Because I've ran all kinds of Wolf Mil Classic through my DD 10.3s and 11.5s with no problems.
Yes. Though it is common for 10.3's to generally like higher pressured ammo (which is why LMT states that people should use M855).
C4
If you have a 14.5" middy that eats out of spec ammo, that just means that it is over gassed (which isn't a good thing BTW). ;)
C4
But that would also mean that there are a lot if 14.5" Middy BCM & DD rifles out there that are overgassed....correct? All but one that I have assembled has run on everything from mil pressure brass to weak as water Tula.
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But that would also mean that there are a lot if 14.5" Middy BCM & DD rifles out there that are overgassed....correct? All but one that I have assembled has run on everything from mil pressure brass to weak as water Tula.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
They "can work", but as a general rule you are pushing it and or "lucky" if they do work.
There is also a lot of variables here that will make or break a BCM running. Things like buffer weight, spring tension, how clean or dirty the gun is, amount of lube used, outside temp, etc.
C4
Apparently the OP was upset with my comments concerning his AR and started a thread on the most technical forum on the net (ARFCOM GD).
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1313106_So_apparently__there_s_something__wrong__with_my_AR__you_gotta_read_this____.html&page=1
The question he raised was: "Isn't it a good thing that my AR can shoot all types of ammo?"
This question brings up a two schools of thought. The first thought is that a gun that shoots all levels of ammo (quality and junk) is a good thing and there are no down sides.
The second thought is that a gun that will lock the bolt back on the weakest ammo available is over gassed. This means that you get more recoil, more carbon build up, faster wear on parts and faster gas port erosion.
The 14.5 Middy really came about because folks wanted the softest shooting gun available (especially if you run a suppressor). They realized that the trade off is that the gun is just barely cycling and if you use weak ammo, gun is dirty, under lubed or cold that it MIGHT not lock back on the last round.
For me, I am fine with this trade (as I shoot with a suppressor) and only use good ammo in my AR's. Others won't find this acceptable and want a larger gas port (which is basically the same as shooting a carbine gas system).
To each their own, but realize what the trades are and what the original intent of the design ways.
C4
He claims you are "THE" expert here............does that come with a plaque or anything? :sarcastic:
Maybe a framed certificate?
Bizzarolibe
04-18-12, 22:28
Apparently the OP was upset with my comments concerning his AR and started a thread on the most technical forum on the net (ARFCOM GD).
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1313106_So_apparently__there_s_something__wrong__with_my_AR__you_gotta_read_this____.html&page=1
The question he raised was: "Isn't it a good thing that my AR can shoot all types of ammo?"
This question brings up a two schools of thought. The first thought is that a gun that shoots all levels of ammo (quality and junk) is a good thing and there are no down sides.
The second thought is that a gun that will lock the bolt back on the weakest ammo available is over gassed. This means that you get more recoil, more carbon build up, faster wear on parts and faster gas port erosion.
The 14.5 Middy really came about because folks wanted the softest shooting gun available (especially if you run a suppressor). They realized that the trade off is that the gun is just barely cycling and if you use weak ammo, gun is dirty, under lubed or cold that it MIGHT not lock back on the last round.
For me, I am fine with this trade (as I shoot with a suppressor) and only use good ammo in my AR's. Others won't find this acceptable and want a larger gas port (which is basically the same as shooting a carbine gas system).
To each their own, but realize what the trades are and what the original intent of the design ways.
C4
Upset? Certainly not. Amused is more like it :p
What would you say the life expectancy is of an AR with an oversized gas port vs one without?
Just tried read that thread on TOS. Couldn't even make it half way through the first page of non-sense.
mallowpufft
04-18-12, 22:58
Wow. I'm a nub and I know it but after reading that thread on TOS I'm glad I don't frequent it. Back on topic... OP, I'm glad your rifle is working well for you. I'm not a huge fan of that loud of a stripe but I am interested in how you did the dye job. I'm a sucker for tiger stripe (especially the Vietnam Era stuff). I'd like to try my hand at it.
It's best to blame my misspelled words on autocorrect.
And THAT, boys and girls, is why ARFCOM is only used as my shopping cart, and nothing else. They may all be ****tards over there, but hey, they got some gooooood deals
They "can work", but as a general rule you are pushing it and or "lucky" if they do work.
There is also a lot of variables here that will make or break a BCM running. Things like buffer weight, spring tension, how clean or dirty the gun is, amount of lube used, outside temp, etc.
C4
I know you aren't a ST fan, but is it really fair to say that any ST rifles that run reliably on Tula must be overgassed, however the many BCM, DD, and Noveske 14.5" Middys out there which run just fine on it only do so because they're lucky or have other variables coming into play? I've seen SR-15's that run cheap steel cased ammo as well.....does that make them overgassed?
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He claims you are "THE" expert here............does that come with a plaque or anything? :sarcastic:
Maybe a framed certificate?
LOL, ya I have a plaque.
The REAL "experts" live in the "Ask the SME" section of the forum. ;)
C4
What would you say the life expectancy is of an AR with an oversized gas port vs one without?
To many variables to say.
C4
I know you aren't a ST fan, but is it really fair to say that any ST rifles that run reliably on Tula must be overgassed, however the many BCM, DD, and Noveske 14.5" Middys out there which run just fine on it only do so because they're lucky or have other variables coming into play? I've seen SR-15's that run cheap steel cased ammo as well.....does that make them overgassed?
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Truth be told, I would take an ST AR over the majority of other AR's out there. :eek:
For every BCM/DD/etc 14.5" middy that runs well with crap ammo, there are just as many that do not.
My theory as to why some run and some do not is that the first 500-1,000 rounds through the BCM (for instance) was shot with good pressured ammo. The gas port opened up slightly after this. Then the owner tried some under pressured ammo and it ran.
So for lack of a better term, the gun got "broken in" and is why it ran.
I base this theory on the fact that the majority of the "my BCM won't run crap ammo" threads are people attempting to get their upper to run with it in under 1,000rds fired.
As I stated earlier in this thread, the 14.5" middy was designed as a compromise. That compromise was soft shooting with the possibility of short stroking.
For the record, I do understand where your coming from and appreciate the question.
C4
It seems we have been down this road before. I personally won't shoot Tula/Wolf crap in my guns, but I did put 2100 rounds of Hornady Steel TAP through my SBR with zero malfunctions.
But, the first few thousand rounds was all M855/M193 stuff.
Truth be told, I would take an ST AR over the majority of other AR's out there. :eek:
For every BCM/DD/etc 14.5" middy that runs well with crap ammo, there are just as many that do not.
My theory as to why some run and some do not is that the first 500-1,000 rounds through the BCM (for instance) was shot with good pressured ammo. The gas port opened up slightly after this. Then the owner tried some under pressured ammo and it ran.
So for lack of a better term, the gun got "broken in" and is why it ran.
I base this theory on the fact that the majority of the "my BCM won't run crap ammo" threads are people attempting to get their upper to run with it in under 1,000rds fired.
As I stated earlier in this thread, the 14.5" middy was designed as a compromise. That compromise was soft shooting with the possibility of short stroking.
For the record, I do understand where your coming from and appreciate the question.
C4
Bizzarolibe
04-19-12, 18:08
If you have a 14.5" middy that eats out of spec ammo, that just means that it is over gassed (which isn't a good thing BTW). ;)
C4
Copy and pasted (with minor editing):
As to my rifle being overgassed, I will only say that, at least in this case, the term is somewhat relative. It may be 'overgassed' (whatever that even means--I am certainly not experiencing any of the symptoms usually associated with an overgassed AR, i.e., violent recoil, brass flying farther than usual, no brass deformation, etc.) with respect to standard 5.56 ammunition, but it is certainly not overgassed with respect to lower power .223 ammunition. And the fact is it's still not running at as high a pressure as a 14.5" carbine, so there is still a benefit to having a mid-length gas system on a 14.5" AR that will reliably cycle underpowered ammunition.
Consider this: if there is a disparity of 3000 PSI between 14.5" carbines and middies, then if you tune the middy to run, say, 500PSI higher than the middies on the lowest end of the pressure scale (to make it cycle the lower pressured ammunition better), you are most certainly NOT negating the benefits of a 14.5" middy. You're still 2500PSI shy of the carbine. Heck, it wouldn't matter to me if the difference was only 100PSI; there's still a difference, and it still results in lower recoil and reduced wear on the internals, ceteris paribus.
Of course, that's all conjecture. I don't have the numbers on my middy, and niether do you unless you'd like to contact Spikes and ask them. For all anyone knows it could be other factors that enable my rifle to cycle lower pressure rounds (i.e., lower friction co-efficient on the NiB BCG, buffer spring/buffer variables, etc.). Thus I don't think you or anyone else is in the position to make an informed judgment concerning whether it's 'overgassed' or not.
The simple fact is I refuse to buy any gun--handgun, rifle, or what have you--that is only compatible with certain kinds of ammunition. I'm sure you can imagine how I could be struck by the absurdity of someone saying that there is something wrong with a weapon that will cycle a variety of commercial loadings reliably.
And THAT, boys and girls, is why ARFCOM is only used as my shopping cart, and nothing else. They may all be ****tards over there, but hey, they got some gooooood deals
And THAT, boys and girls, is why ARFCOM is only used as my shopping cart, and nothing else. They may all be ****tards over there, but hey, they got some gooooood deals
And THAT, boys and girls, is why ARFCOM is only used as my shopping cart, and nothing else. They may all be ****tards over there, but hey, they got some gooooood deals
It deserved three quotes.
Apparently the OP was upset with my comments concerning his AR and started a thread on the most technical forum on the net (ARFCOM GD).
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1313106_So_apparently__there_s_something__wrong__with_my_AR__you_gotta_read_this____.html&page=1
:bad::bad::bad:
Another completely meaningless thread on barfcom with endless nonsensical rambling...
running off to anther website to cry that you didn't get the response you wanted to your vanity thread here is pretty sad.
I've only ever shot steel-cased ammo through two BCM mid-length 14.5" guns. One went 400+ rounds with 3 failures to extract (stuck cases, chronic with that era of Wolf in all guns) and the other 800+ rounds with 1 failure to feed. Not high round counts but I have no reason to think that either is "over gassed" or that they would simply start having issues after that number of rounds.
People get too wrapped around the axles about this stupid gas shit, from both ends of the perspective. You better be drilling the centers out at 200 yards, cleaning the 1/2 & 1/2, scoring perfect scores on the MEU(SOC) etc. before you're worrying about the level of crap that most people here worry themselves with lately.
Army Chief
04-20-12, 06:31
I'm sure you can imagine how I could be struck by the absurdity of someone saying that there is something wrong with a weapon that will cycle a variety of commercial loadings reliably.
I find this a reasonable statement, even if it happens to be indicative of a fairly limited knowledge base. In this, you've come to the right place for answers, though I'm somewhat less-impressed with the attitude and maturity displayed by some of your reactions -- both here and elsewhere. When the details of your decorative build only managed to elicit favorable responses from our newest and/or lowest post-count members, that should have been an indicator that you probably weren't in Kansas any more, and that you might have missed a few things of some importance along the way. The question is, do you really care to learn, or are you just looking for the usual "awesome boomstick" feedback that passes for the norm nearly everywhere else on the web?
A few will pick up on M4C's deliberate bias toward the professional, and genuinely strive to advance their learning; the rest will go back to their sites-of-origin and offer incredulous commentary on their non-supportive experiences here at the hands of our "elitist" membership and cadre. My usual counsel is to recommend that newer members read more, post less, and get a sense for the site culture here before presenting their zombie slayers and pimp-my-gun projects for adoration. A lot less feelings get hurt that way.
If you truly wish to advance your technical knowledge of AR-based systems, then there is a wealth of experience here, and that information is widely available to you. If you're just seeking another internet watering hole, or a place where gas system concerns provide ready fare for jovial exchanges on flatulence, then I would respectfully suggest that you have already found a good fit elsewhere.
The choice is yours.
AC
....As to my rifle being overgassed, I will only say that, at least in this case, the term is somewhat relative. It may be 'overgassed' (whatever that even means--I am certainly not experiencing any of the symptoms usually associated with an overgassed AR, i.e., violent recoil, brass flying farther than usual, no brass deformation, etc.) with respect to standard 5.56 ammunition, but it is certainly not overgassed with respect to lower power .223 ammunition. And the fact is it's still not running at as high a pressure as a 14.5" carbine, so there is still a benefit to having a mid-length gas system on a 14.5" AR that will reliably cycle underpowered ammunition.
223 ammo is not underpowered. It's designed to make full pressure in a true SAAMI spec chamber. The 5.56 NATO chamber has certain design elements that reduces the pressure in comparison to the 223 SAAMI chamber. Take a close look at the load data for both rounds. Each, when fired in it's respective chambers gives similar velocities with similar length barrels. As both use cases with the same internal volume, it tells us pressures are similar.
Consider this: if there is a disparity of 3000 PSI between 14.5" carbines and middies, then if you tune the middy to run, say, 500PSI higher than the middies on the lowest end of the pressure scale (to make it cycle the lower pressured ammunition better), you are most certainly NOT negating the benefits of a 14.5" middy. You're still 2500PSI shy of the carbine. Heck, it wouldn't matter to me if the difference was only 100PSI; there's still a difference, and it still results in lower recoil and reduced wear on the internals, ceteris paribus.
The rifle isn't tuned by pressure alone. Gas flow and mass must also be taken into consideration. The gas port does not raise or lower the amount of pressure needed to operate the action, it controls the flow. Further down the barrel, the gas has less pressure meaning less density (lower mass). The gas port is tuned to give the right amount of flow under ideal conditions. A larger port allows a higher flow, bringing the BCG up to operating pressure quicker, increasing BCG acceleration
Of course, that's all conjecture. I don't have the numbers on my middy, and niether do you unless you'd like to contact Spikes and ask them. For all anyone knows it could be other factors that enable my rifle to cycle lower pressure rounds (i.e., lower friction co-efficient on the NiB BCG, buffer spring/buffer variables, etc.). Thus I don't think you or anyone else is in the position to make an informed judgment concerning whether it's 'overgassed' or not.
The fact is, no one knows for certain what's going on until data is collected and examined. However, an experienced technician can make a good guess as to what's going on based on experience. If a technician has experienced that 14.5" middy rifles that run reliably with ammo that exhibits lower pressure also tends to be over gassed with normal pressure ammo, it's a good bet the tech is right.
The simple fact is I refuse to buy any gun--handgun, rifle, or what have you--that is only compatible with certain kinds of ammunition. I'm sure you can imagine how I could be struck by the absurdity of someone saying that there is something wrong with a weapon that will cycle a variety of commercial loadings reliably.
The truth is, all firearms are compatible with only certain kinds of ammunition. Any firearm is likely to be more accurate with a certain load than another. The shooter may have to compromise accuracy to use more economical ammunition.
Any rifle may show pressure signs with a load that is safe in a different rifle. The action of a repeater may be sticky with certain loads, or only function properly with one type of load. Either a safer load needs to be found or the rifle modified to give less pressure with that load. Modifying the rifle can compromise it's accuracy or reliability or it's use with other rounds.
Shooting +P+ handgun ammo can result in accelerated wear with certain designs. Opening up the gas port of an AR to run lower pressure ammo increases acceleration and deceleration forces of the moving parts when using normal pressure ammo, increasing wear. Everything is a compromise. If you can accept the increased wear of parts that will occur with shooting normal pressure ammo to gain reliability with low pressure ammo, that's fine. But to tell Grant he cannot know there are bad things happening under the circumstances is plain ignorance.
Apparently the OP was upset with my comments concerning his AR and started a thread on the most technical forum on the net (ARFCOM GD).
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1313106_So_apparently__there_s_something__wrong__with_my_AR__you_gotta_read_this____.html&page=1
C4
Dammit Grant!!! I followed that link and I swear I lost 40 IQ points. I still have a month left in the combat zone and I need all of my synapses functioning at %100. One more trip to TOS and I swear I'll be brain dead enough to vote Democrat in the next Presidential election (seriously though this will never happen).
Dammit Grant!!! I followed that link and I swear I lost 40 IQ points. I still have a month left in the combat zone and I need all of my synapses functioning at %100. One more trip to TOS and I swear I'll be brain dead enough to vote Democrat in the next Presidential election (seriously though this will never happen).
Ya, your not alone. Its like a home for angry 20 something white males living in their parents basements playing some first person shooter game while fantasizing about the zombie apocalypse.
C4
Ya, your not alone. Its like a home for angry 20 something white males living in their parents basements playing some first person shooter game while fantasizing about the zombie apocalypse.
C4
I'll be 36 in July, thank you very much. :jester:
GlocksInMySocks
04-22-12, 18:32
I learned of a case where a perp broke into a persons home through the skylight in his kitchen. Upon landing, he slipped on a skateboard and injured himself. He sued the homeowner AND WON. Maybe that's just internet banter, but why chance it?
You've got to be kidding right? that's from the movie Liar Liar...
Greta: Mr. Reede, several years ago a friend of mine had a burglar on her roof. A burglar. He fell through the kitchen skylight, landed on a cutting board, on a butcher's knife, cutting his leg. The burglar sued my friend. He sued my friend and because of guys like you, he won. My friend had to pay the burglar $6,000. Is that justice?
Fletcher: No!... I'd have got him ten.
hatchtrikk
04-22-12, 19:32
Yeah, I wasn't going to shit up this thread with that anymore, but since you bring it up, I'll go ahead man up to my mistakes.
After doing a ton of research, it turns out that that story is regarding a few kids who fell through a high school gymnasium skylight.
Bodine v Enterprise Highschool
That seems believable until you search even harder and discover that making up fake cases was a technique employed by lawmakers in the 80s to help them move things along.
It was tort story. First result is how I found out: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=bodine%20v.%20enterprise%20high%20school&oq=bodine%20v&aq=0&aqi=g3g-m1&aql=&gs_nf=1&gs_l=hp.11.0.0l3j0i5.1043.5142.0.6717.8.8.0.0.0.0.119.683.7j1.8.0.juRwhYfTFl4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=a41d3a8485b80a19&pf=p&pdl=300
It's from Berkley Law so hopefully it's not bullshit.
My sincerest apologies to the OP and this forum for vomiting all over this thread and contributing to internet gossip.
Hope you guys don't hold it against me for too long.
Rex
Upset? Certainly not. Amused is more like it :p
Apparently you were. You posted this on TOS:
In all fairness, I was probably being a bit of a dick by posting about it here. I just thought it was kinda funny, but hey, we all say stupid crap sometimes.
Why not admit here that you made a mistake? Stick around and learn. Grant wasn't saying you have a shit weapon because it will eat any kind of ammo. He was just saying that there is a reason why it will eat anything.
It's obvious that the two sites are completely different in their purpose. Army Chief said about all there is to say about the subject. AR15.com has a completely different tone to it--I'm not sure how to describe it because I don't want to slam anyone, but it seems to be based much more on what is the "flavor of the moment", or "look at my cool blah, blah, blah, am I not awesome?" than actually building knowledge, and becoming a more proficient shooter.
In the entire thread that the OP created on TOS, there was only ONE person out of the 3 pages of posts that actually questioned the OP's statement with a factual, reason-based response. The rest was a bunch of "those guys are dicks" and "hee hee, you said gas hole" comments.
I'll take facts and actual experience over a bunch of teenage humor.
Ya, your not alone. Its like a home for angry 20 something white males living in their parents basements playing some first person shooter game while fantasizing about the zombie apocalypse.
C4
This place isn't too far behind lately.
:suicide2:
hatchtrikk
04-22-12, 20:08
This place isn't too far behind lately.
:suicide2:
**** I hope not.
It's really nice here:dance3:
Army Chief
04-22-12, 20:44
This place isn't too far behind lately.
:suicide2:
Come on, brother -- who does a comment like that help?
To lift a classic line from Ronin, "Either you're part of the problem, or you're part of the solution, or you're just part of the landscape."
These kinds of complaints just annoy the staff, incite the regulars, and go right over the heads of the newcomers.
Be part of the solution.
AC
Bizzarolibe
04-23-12, 11:33
running off to anther website to cry that you didn't get the response you wanted to your vanity thread here is pretty sad.
C'mon Rob, do you really think I'm that naive? I was actually quite surprised by the number of positive responses I received. I've been around long enough to know of the, er, history between many posters on this site and Spikes, and I'm also well aware of the prevailing "elitist" attitude here. The fact is, this forum has a reputation, and it is a reputation that has been well-earned.
So please, don't talk to me like I'm clueless. For the most part, I got exactly what I expected in this thread (with the exception of the positive comments).
I find this a reasonable statement, even if it happens to be indicative of a fairly limited knowledge base. In this, you've come to the right place for answers, though I'm somewhat less-impressed with the attitude and maturity displayed by some of your reactions -- both here and elsewhere. When the details of your decorative build only managed to elicit favorable responses from our newest and/or lowest post-count members, that should have been an indicator that you probably weren't in Kansas any more, and that you might have missed a few things of some importance along the way.
AC
So my ‘knowledge base’ is limited because I prefer rifle that will shoot a larger variety of commercially loaded ammunition over those that won’t, all other things being equal? Again, I just find that humorous; no hurt feelings here. The fact is, the whole issue boils down to personal preference. Some people prefer rifles that barely poop out full-power 5.56 and choke on the weaker stuff. That’s great; more power to you. I on the other hand prefer a rifle that, while shooting softer than a carbine, will also feed the cheaper, lower-powered .223. Its one thing to say that you prefer the softest shooting rifle you can get your hands on; it’s another thing to say that it’s an objectively bad thing if a rifle can reliably feed lower-pressure ammunition, especially when you are completely ignorant of all the factors involved. Therein lies the absurdity.
223 ammo is not underpowered. It's designed to make full pressure in a true SAAMI spec chamber. The 5.56 NATO chamber has certain design elements that reduces the pressure in comparison to the 223 SAAMI chamber. Take a close look at the load data for both rounds. Each, when fired in it's respective chambers gives similar velocities with similar length barrels. As both use cases with the same internal volume, it tells us pressures are similar.
I never said that all .223 ammo is underpowered; I only said that my rifle can shoot underpowered .223 (i.e., Tula and Wolf). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just misread me.
The rifle isn't tuned by pressure alone. Gas flow and mass must also be taken into consideration. The gas port does not raise or lower the amount of pressure needed to operate the action, it controls the flow. Further down the barrel, the gas has less pressure meaning less density (lower mass). The gas port is tuned to give the right amount of flow under ideal conditions. A larger port allows a higher flow, bringing the BCG up to operating pressure quicker, increasing BCG acceleration
That's great, and it's all stuff that I'm well aware of.
The fact is, no one knows for certain what's going on until data is collected and examined. However, an experienced technician can make a good guess as to what's going on based on experience. If a technician has experienced that 14.5" middy rifles that run reliably with ammo that exhibits lower pressure also tends to be over gassed with normal pressure ammo, it's a good bet the tech is right.
Except that in this case, the 'tech' is attempting to win the argument by definitional fiat; he is defining 'overgassed' as 'having the capacity to reliably feed underpowered .223 ammunition.' Thus it is a meaningless tautology. That is to say that how you define 'overgassed' is what the discussion ultimately turns on. I find a definition of 'overgassed' that entails good reliability when running certain kinds of cheap, plentiful ammo to be, well, just bad. Again, if my rifle was tearing the rims off the brass and bruising my shoulder, maybe you'd have a case. The fact is, according to all the usual indicators (i.e., ejection pattern, perceived recoil, etc.) my rifle is within fine operating parameters.
But to tell Grant he cannot know there are bad things happening under the circumstances is plain ignorance.
Oh? Did Grant sneak into my bedroom and borrow my AR so he could take the necessary measurements to justifiably make the claim that he made? If not, then no, Grant cannot know there are ‘bad things’ happening; he can speculate, but he cannot know. There is a very real difference between the two.
Apparently you were. You posted this on TOS:
Why not admit here that you made a mistake? Stick around and learn. Grant wasn't saying you have a shit weapon because it will eat any kind of ammo. He was just saying that there is a reason why it will eat anything.
I think you misunderstood me. When I said that we all say stupid stuff sometimes, I wasn't talking about me. The reason I said I was a little bit of a dick is because, in all honesty, I felt bad about exploiting Grant's comment on a large forum. The fact is, he probably wrote it in haste and most likely didn't put too much thought into it.
In the end, what we all need to take away from this is that personal grudges and biases are no substitute for knowledge and sound reasoning.
LOL.....I do have to admit that I find the irony in this thread hilarious. The guy has a Spikes Tactical rifle which isn't a popular brand here for various reasons. Due to that fact the idea that his rifle will eat any shit ammo he feeds it must mean its overgassed....or inferior since the properly constructed AR's require high quality ammo to function. The first part of the irony comes when your consider the fact that there are A LOT of 14.5" Middy BCM, DD, & Noveske's out there which also gobble the cheap shit up(fresh out of the box) however they only do so because of luck or "other factors" like lube, break in, buffers, etc. Of course they can't be overgassed so why would anyone even consider that.
The second part of the irony comes when you spend some time researching other threads on this forum where you will find people proud to announce their BCM, DD, Noveske runs on all ammo because its made properly and has a proper 5.56 chamber.
SMDH......LOL.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Bizzarolibe
04-24-12, 09:23
For ****s sake - this guy is not getting it... :jester:
Let me let you in on a little secret, you are way over your head here.
I'm glad you can run cheap, underpowered commie .223 in your gun, after all I could give two shits how your gun runs. Mine won't cycle reliably with anything but decent 5.56 ammo, and I am glad that I learned enough here over the past few years to appreciate this. So keep on enjoying your ultra reliable over-gassed AR; if you actually stick around and read more than you post, maybe in a few years you'll understand what some of the members here were trying to share with you.
Hey now, all I'm trying to do is to bring a little clarity to this issue. It was claimed that because a rifle can reliably feed weak .223 then it must be overgassed to the point of having an objectively negative impact on the functioning of the rifle. All I have done is show that this conclusion was based on woefully inadequate evidence and also contains circular and/or purely subjective elements.
Considering this, there is no good reason for me to accept that a rifle that can reliably feed weak .223 must be 'overgassed'. I don't accept beliefs for which I have no good reasons.
LOL.....I do have to admit that I find the irony in this thread hilarious. The guy has a Spikes Tactical rifle which isn't a popular brand here for various reasons. Due to that fact the idea that his rifle will eat any shit ammo he feeds it must mean its overgassed....or inferior since the properly constructed AR's require high quality ammo to function. The first part of the irony comes when your consider the fact that there are A LOT of 14.5" Middy BCM, DD, & Noveske's out there which also gobble the cheap shit up like candy however they only do so because of luck or "other factors" like lube, break in, buffers, etc. Of course they can't be overgassed so why would anyone even consider that.
The second part of the irony comes when you spend some time researching other threads on this forum where you will find people proud to announce their BCM, DD, Noveske runs on all ammo because its made properly and has a proper 5.56 chamber.
SMDH......LOL.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Did you happen to read my answers to your questions?? Did you also miss the fact that we see MORE short stroking threads with BCM 14.5" middy uppers than any other (clue)??
I am not sure if you and the OP missed the memo, but 14.5" middy uppers were MEANT to be a compromise. When you compromise, you CAN lose some functionality. So that means that every 14.5" middy that has rounds per minute testing (which BCM does) is setup right at the very edge of functioning.
Now the question is, do you want to take the chance that your 14.5" middy won't run with under pressured ammo? If you do not, then you look to companies that use larger GP's and from the very first round will run Wolf/TULA/Etc.
For the record, I do not care which upper you go with (is your money). What grabs my attention is when someone makes a statement that THEIR upper runs crap ammo and attempts to put down a company like BCM because it won't. If your BCM 14.5" middy runs under pressured ammo, then great! This is not always the norm though.
C4
Army Chief
04-24-12, 11:18
So my ‘knowledge base’ is limited because I prefer rifle that will shoot a larger variety of commercially loaded ammunition over those that won’t, all other things being equal?
I don't see that as an A to B proposition, no. We simply weren't given much by way of a useful context for interpreting your remarks, and your protests seemed to suggest that you did not understand (or were otherwise discounting), the problems that over-gassed ARs so regularly present. If you're going this route as a matter of choice, and are fully aware of what is going on inside of your rifle, that is really beyond the scope of this discussion.
AC
Did you happen to read my answers to your questions?? Did you also miss the fact that we see MORE short stroking threads with BCM 14.5" middy uppers than any other (clue)??
I am not sure if you and the OP missed the memo, but 14.5" middy uppers were MEANT to be a compromise. When you compromise, you CAN lose some functionality. So that means that every 14.5" middy that has rounds per minute testing (which BCM does) is setup right at the very edge of functioning.
Now the question is, do you want to take the chance that your Gun your 14.5" middy won't run with under pressured ammo? If you do not, then you look to companies that use larger GP's and from the very first round will run Wolf/TULA/Etc.
For the record, I do not care which upper you go with (is your money). What grabs my attention is when someone makes a statement that THEIR upper runs crap ammo and attempts to put down a company like BCM because it won't. If your BCM 14.5" middy runs under pressured ammo, then great! This is not always the norm though.
C4
I learned a lot, just from that post. That's something I didn't know about the 14.5 mid, and now I'm happy I never picked one up.
I learned a lot, just from that post. That's something I didn't know about the 14.5 mid, and now I'm happy I never picked one up.
I actually think they are a good idea (with a can on them). Shooting non-suppressed, I think they are generally a poor idea (from a reliability point of view).
The reason why some companies over gas them is the same reason why DPMS, BM, Oly, etc over gas their 16" CAR gas AR's. They know that their customer base will typically shoot the cheapest (read under pressured ammo) available and they do NOT want short stroking CS calls. They know their customers and setup their guns to best fit how they shoot.
There is nothing wrong with the above, but for someone like me (that shoots suppressed and uses better ammo) an over gassed gun is a no go as it generates more of everything that I do not want.
C4
Bizzaro,
If you want to argue back and forth, join the high school debate team. As of now, please stay out of this thread because you cannot seem to understand the information being presented.
Your AR isn't overgassed when shooting .223 ammo. But, rather your port has been enlarged to allow for it's use. Where you run into problems is when you start to shoot 5.56 pressure ammo and or shoot suppressed.
I have seen first hand what happens to AR's like BM, DPMS and others once their port erodes (all ports will) and more gas flows. You will have more malfunctions.
Quit justifying POS AR's.
Exactly. The weapon used doesn't mean a thing. Awesome looking rifle OP
Except perhaps to a liberal jury in the civil trial where the crook's family is suing you for depriving them of the hoodlum. :ph34r:
Nice gun. Epic thread (edited because well.. just because)
Figured you guys might like this epicness.
Yes, removed peoples accounts etc due to not needing to give dipshits more credit for laughs than they deserve.
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4954/roflcopy.jpg
Btw, it is kind of funny how the OP here goes to moronville to try to fit in and get replies like the above. Seems like when people get told they are ill informed, they go hang out with other ill informed people, thus being even more ill informed. But for some reason, they then feel good being ill informed because the ill informed are making his ill informed nature seem cool. Stay in M4carbine.net... because being ill informed will only make you re-enact scenes in platoon with Charlie Sheen. =] Don't re-enact scenes in platoon with Charlie Sheen... go M4carbine.net... where the true are true, people have brains, and the weak end up leaving to post sob stories on moronville. (yes my direct tv joke was lame... but it was still funny!)
"No way man, alcohol is what got me in that whole mess in the first place "
Best not to drink if you feel like talking specs. OR, if your like me, and make mistakes when your totally and utterly plastered, you come forward and say you were being a drunk douchebag, and reply with some sense in a sober manner (even if your still utterly drunk).
Btw, the amount of disrespect I've seen from the OP (trying to fit in among the ill informed) and the "Ill informed", is obsurd. He never said your gun was a POS. He said you were probably over gassed, and listed some reprocussions. Take it or leave it... it's not a reason to throw a temper tantrum about this site, or him on another forum. I know I'm not a super long term poster, or high post count person, but man, it's easy to spot an internet ***** when I do.
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