View Full Version : Single stage vs. Double stage trigger for SBR
Hy guys...long time lurker, first time poster here.
So...I am trying to decide on a trigger for my soon-to-be SBR. I am making no sacrifices in the quality of the parts I am buying for it, so, of course, I am willing to spend a decent amount of money on a good trigger.
So this question arose.
Do I want a double stage trigger, or a single stage trigger for my SBR? I am sure this question has been asked many times here and I am almost certain I will hear "You don't need a double-stage because you shouldn't have to engage a target past 200 yards." That is completely valid but I do want to hear both sides regardless.
I have been looking at the Geissele SSA and SSA-E, as well as the super-dynamic 3 gun trigger for double stage...and also stock USGI triggers, etc...for single stage.
I would really appreciate any input.
Thanks!
I've never felt a Giessele, but I will have one, some day. So this is very biased and FWIW.
I really like my Timney. True, simle, drop in single stage trigger.
No take up at all, so that seems nicer and faster for SBR type shots of standing positions, or on the move. But it feels great for bench shooting too. Very very short re-set as well. Just a good fast trigger feel all around. I've never had a bump fire with my Timney, but that's only about 1500 rounds. More trigger time may change that. who knows.
I can't recomend an Alexander Arms. It has a short take up and short re-set, but not near as crisp as my Timney. The AA trigger has given me several bump fires, and one time a set screw backed out and got lost...ending my plinking weekend. I was wayyyy out in the brush. it sucked.
Do I want a double stage trigger, or a single stage trigger for my SBR? I am sure this question has been asked many times here and I am almost certain I will hear "You don't need a double-stage because you shouldn't have to engage a target past 200 yards." That is completely valid but I do want to hear both sides regardless.
I have a hard time thinking of an SBR as a weapon meant for accuracy, so I wouldn't spend good money on a fancy trigger, but in the end, you have to buy what YOU want and if that's what you want, then it's worth the money.
:)
I had a Timney, it was O.K. After I got a Giessele SSA, I now hate that Timney in retrospect. Nothing beats knowing EXACTLY when the trigger is going to break.
sinlessorrow
04-18-12, 21:25
I run a Geissele SSA in my SBR.
The best trigger I have ever used, while a SBR is not really a rifle meant for long range shooting the Geissele SSA is their Semi version of their Military combat trigger the SSF.
Trust me they are a huge upgrade, I can never go back to a standard trigger again
Either a standard USGI, ALG, SSA or G2S.
3-4LBS single stage triggers are no go on a combat AR IMHO.
C4
My match Colt rifle has a Jewell, My SPR has a Giessele match, my SBR lower awaiting it's form 1 has a Giessele SD-E.
Only the best for the purpose.
I agree that if it is a defensive type of rifle the trigger pull weight shouldn't drop too low. Single stage vs two stage might be a shooter preference, but when running them under defensive / combat speeds and situations you will be hard pressed to tell a difference in the two types.
Thanks for the replies, so by the looks of it the majority prefers a double stage trigger.
Would you say the SD-E or the SD3G would be best?
Many will say that a standard USGI trigger is the way to go as a default answer. And for many it is...if that's what they are used to and it does what they need.
But if you prefer double stage triggers as many do, including myself, keep in mind that Geissele 2-stage triggers are in wide use by various military units. To call them "fancy" or "exotic" is a somewhat uneducated position, as they have very much become the "new standard" for many users. They are just as reliable as the USGI trigger and are approved for duty use.
The reason I use them (and that's what's key...to have a reason for what you choose) is to keep my triggers consistent from platform to platform. While in the military, I had a variety of platforms that I could choose from depending on the mission (M110, MK12, M4). In order to keep a consistent trigger pull, I had SSF's in the MK12 and M4. The M110 obviously has KAC's 2 stage...different, yes, but still a 2 stage trigger with similar characteristics. So that was my rationale.
On the civilian side, I again went with Geissele's because, again, I was used to them.
I can't say what your needs are or what you should do. All I can say is think about what you want and why. If a Geissele suits your needs better, get it. If not, save the money.
sinlessorrow
04-18-12, 22:37
Thanks for the replies, so by the looks of it the majority prefers a double stage trigger.
Would you say the SD-E or the SD3G would be best?
SSA.
I wouldnt recommend any other Geissele trigger for a fighting rifle
Thanks for the replies, so by the looks of it the majority prefers a double stage trigger.
Would you say the SD-E or the SD3G would be best?
The SD3G is technically a single stage trigger. It's a smooth, fluid break. I would not choose a SD3G for a defensive rifle, personally. I much prefer the greater precision that a 2 stage allows by enabling you to precisely control when the shot is released (you do not want to be surprised by the shot going off...ignore anyone who says this). The 3G is good for "run and gun" 3-gun type shooting, but is not the best for a precision or defensive application.
As Surf said, when shooting quickly, you pull quickly through the first and second stage of a 2 stage trigger. You don't stop at the second stage wall and it does not really slow you down. IMO, this makes the 2 stage the more versatile trigger type, as it allows you to slow down and precisely break the shot, but doesn't impeed rapid fire either.
So....SSA seems to be the winner. I have used them on some of my buddy's 16 and 18 inch AR's and I love the feel but I just don't feel as if it is necessary for my SBR, but what what a0cake said about consistency rifle to rifle makes alot of sense to me so I may make the SSA my trigger of choice on all of my rifles from now on.
About the SSA-E...you think the lighter pull would be detrimental to my overall control of the rifle? (I would have no issues w/ accidental discharges...it just won't happen, I am just asking for opinions). Or would you guys say the only benefit of going with the SSA-E would be for more precise shooting @ longer ranges
So....SSA seems to be the winner. I have used them on some of my buddy's 16 and 18 inch AR's and I love the feel but I just don't feel as if it is necessary for my SBR, but what what a0cake said about consistency rifle to rifle makes alot of sense to me so I may make the SSA my trigger of choice on all of my rifles from now on.
About the SSA-E...you think the lighter pull would be detrimental to my overall control of the rifle? (I would have no issues w/ accidental discharges...it just won't happen, I am just asking for opinions). Or would you guys say the only benefit of going with the SSA-E would be for more precise shooting @ longer ranges
Regarding the E series Geissele triggers on defensive / duty / combat rifles, I take the somewhat controversial stance that if you are trained and proficient, there is no reason not to choose the SD-E. I use it and prefer it. But keep in mind that I am in the minority position here, and the vast majority of experts and even the company itself (Geissele) recommend the SSA / SD-C for this application. But that doesn't necessarily make me wrong. Here are a few replies that I've given in previous threads on this issue...you lose the context of the threads but you'll get the gist from my responses. I'll post the links to the threads at the bottom.
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My take is this:
The trigger is light, yes, but it is repeatable. Assuming that you are competent and have training (which IMO anybody who feels they need an aftermarket trigger SHOULD have to justify the purchase), rest assured that if the hammer drops it will be because you intended it to. I do not believe it is necessary to go with the SSA or SD-C on a fighting rifle. There is plenty of travel in the SD-E / SSA-E first stage and an extremely perceivable wall at the end of the first stage. If you let a round off that you didn't intend to with the lighter Enhanced series triggers (SD-E or SSA-E) it is because of a personal training deficiency, and not at all an issue of trigger selection. If the safety's off and you're applying pressure to the trigger, you should be fully prepared for what's on the other end of your muzzle to be destroyed. I honestly don't see how the slightly lighter trigger is more dangerous if you are a competent and safe shooter.
The one caveat to this is if you have extreme hand strength. I could then see the SSA or SD-C offering more control, especially under stress and physical strain. Notice I said control, not safety.
ETA: When I got my first SD-E, to smooth out the first stage, I rapidly pulled through the first stage 200-300 times, stopping at the second stage wall and not actually dropping the hammer. I did this for 15 or 20 minutes at a FAST pace. I did not accidentally pull through the second stage one time. That is quite amazing, considering that this is a fairly light trigger. It is a testament to the precision and repeatability of the break, which I think is further evidence for my point.
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Point is, the first stage of the SSA and SSA-E / SD-C and SD-E are largely identical. It's not short by any means. The notion that somebody would think it's a good idea to roll around inside a house with the first stage slack taken up and against the second stage wall is so absolutely ridiculous that I can't fathom it.
Somebody who doesn't keep their finger off the trigger until they've made a decision isn't going to be safe with any trigger, the difference between the SSA and SSA-E be damned.
Assuming that a person doesn't do the ridiculous act described above, and uses a two stage trigger as it's supposed to be used when range is close and speed is paramount (pulling completely through both stages with one motion), the weight difference between the SSA and SSA-E matters not one bit and is not really noticeable.
The E's offer more potential for finesse when utilizing both stages, and I still see no increased risk when pulling straight through as mentioned above...unless somebody is being unsafe and applying trigger pressure when they shouldn't be, in which case no trigger will make that shooter safe.
ETA: If you feel uncomfortable, it's probably best to go with Grant's advice. For many shooters who don't have unconscious competence when it comes to safety, he's definitely right and I'm not questioning that. But if you're comfortable with how to use a two stage trigger, know what you're doing, and are looking for a little extra edge in the precision arena on a defensive / combat rifle, don't overlook the E series. That's all I'm saying.
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https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101899
Couldn't have asked for a more to the point and accurate response. Thank you a0cake. I follow the good practices of handling ANY firearm and never having my finger on the trigger unless I intend to shoot. I have taken some tactical shooting classes @ the SIG Academy and I am confident the difference in the pull will be irrelevant to my overall control of the rifle.
So now it's between the SD-E and the SSA-E :)
Either a standard USGI, ALG, SSA or G2S.
3-4LBS single stage triggers are no go on a combat AR IMHO.
C4
Big +1 here with this one. A single stage is NEVER an option for an AR as far as im concered. Just my 0.02. Happy shooting.
Big +1 here with this one. A single stage is NEVER an option for an AR as far as im concered. Just my 0.02. Happy shooting.
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm....
That is definitely not what Grant is saying (he's talking about aftermarket break-o-matics). Maybe it was a typo or you didn't mean to say what you said, but you realize that all standard USGI triggers are single stage, right?
Big +1 here with this one. A single stage is NEVER an option for an AR as far as im concered. Just my 0.02. Happy shooting.
Pretty sure you used a single stage all throughout your USMC career, assuming your screen name indicates what you are/were....just sayin :p
I run the CMMG 2 stage trigger in my SBR. It has a light first stage followed by a crisp 4lb break. Its been reliable for well over 6k rounds.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Pretty sure you used a single stage all throughout your USMC career, assuming your screen name indicates what you are/were....just sayin :p
You need to be VERY carefull where you take that. I was in the corps. And it was a 2 stage. By your post is clear you never were.
You need to be VERY carefull where you take that. I was in the corps. And it was a 2 stage. By your post is clear you never were.
Please don't get this thread locked. Ironman wasn't attacking you; he was just pointing something out. Taking the time and effort to work people through issues / decisions only to have the thread get locked for some jackassery gets old. So please let this be the definitive word and let it go: USGI triggers are single stage. Every single M4 / M16 (unless it's for SOCOM with the SSF) in service has a standard, single stage trigger in it, unless an end user changed it on his own.
USGI triggers have a lot of creep / notchiness, so you can often take up some of that creep, stop, then precisely control the release of the shot. But it's still a single stage trigger. Maybe this is where you're getting the impression that it's a 2 stage?
You need to be VERY carefull where you take that. I was in the corps. And it was a 2 stage. By your post is clear you never were.
Internet tough guy ususally goes nowhere buddy. Realize that there was no veiled insult, but if being a internet tough guy makes your cherios float, then be my guest. I'm done with this conversation with you.
Btw, thanks for setting the record straight a0cake.
While I'm completely new to the AR15 platform, I'm NOT new to good triggers. The triggers on my 3 Weihrauch air rifles are unbelievable, the single-set trigger on my CZ453 .17HMR is magic & with a little tuning, the triggers on my 7, CZ452's are simply wonderful.
With this in mind, the first thing I did with my new LMT was to replace the trigger with an SSA-E. It is just (in a word) Perfect! While my age & physical condition keep me from running-n-gunning, I feel the enhanced 2nd stage would still be safe in an agressive situation while still being perfect for bench shooting.
The trouble is, now that I have a benchmark for what triggers can be, I need to go back & really fine tune my other rifles...
I do 2 stagers on my precision guns and singles stages on my SBRs and "fighting" guns.
Love the Wilson Combat TTUs.
While I'm completely new to the AR15 platform, I'm NOT new to good triggers. The triggers on my 3 Weihrauch air rifles are unbelievable, the single-set trigger on my CZ453 .17HMR is magic & with a little tuning, the triggers on my 7, CZ452's are simply wonderful.
With this in mind, the first thing I did with my new LMT was to replace the trigger with an SSA-E. It is just (in a word) Perfect! While my age & physical condition keep me from running-n-gunning, I feel the enhanced 2nd stage would still be safe in an agressive situation while still being perfect for bench shooting.
The trouble is, now that I have a benchmark for what triggers can be, I need to go back & really fine tune my other rifles...
Dude, the "Rekord" triggers on the Weihrauch's are amazing aren't they? I used to shoot 10M air rifle and springer class field target with a HW-97 tuned by Russ Best fairly competitively about 7 years ago. I've since sold all my airguns but I'm thinking about getting another HW-97. It's just hard to swallow because I could get a complete high end AR upper for the same price as a complete airgun setup.
No need for aftermarket triggers here,
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2570/4102092176_9658a5fe80_z.jpg?zz=1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42137411@N00/4102092176/)
The Rekord Triggers gave me the confidence I needed to go with the SSA-E, & boy, am I glad I did! My HW97K, HW80 & HW50s will never leave my collection.
I would seriously consider the ALG (It's a Geissele at heart, but a simple first stage with a more consistent pull, and none of the dumb issues of filed down triggers).
G2S and GSSA would be the alternative, for all the above reasons. That combination of pull weight is good enough for precision weapons, but works in my short light rifles.
Getting behind a Corps owned/borrowed Mk12 with the KAC 2-Stage was what started me looking at the two stage units for every application (I think it was still the KAC sourced for those in '09) - bought one GSSA, and have since acquired another 5, on NCO income. I think that should speak for itself.
fallenromeo
04-20-12, 11:09
I am throwing my vote out there for the SSA. That is what I have on my 14.5" AR and I love it. I am not sure I would like a lighter trigger pull for an all around rifle. I will get a SSA-E when/if I build a precision rifle.
1371USMCFL
04-21-12, 11:30
I think the SSA or just the standard ALG (if you do not already have a standard trigger group). By running the two stage, you applying the theory of having it in case you need it (the precision aspect of having a 2-stage), rather than wishing you had it should you need it.
For high round count shooting though, it doesn't matter. I have a SSA in one rifle and a LMT in another, both give me the same results under that rate of fire.
Robb Jensen
04-21-12, 12:28
I use the ALG Defense ACT triggers in my SBRs.
I use the ALG Defense ACT triggers in my SBRs.
How do these compare to the SSA triggers?
^^ You can't.....the only thing those two triggers have in common is that they are made for ARs.
If your not restrained by duty regs, or budget....the SSA is a superior trigger in every category. The ACT is for folks that don't have the scratch for an uber nice trigger, or are required to run mil spec triggers in duty rifles.
Interesting, thanks for the info.
Single stage all the way.
I'll be the dissenter in all the fancy-trigger love (and yes, I'm going to keep calling them "fancy" :P).
I am a fan of the GI trigger. I have never missed a shot that I blamed on the trigger* (more on that in a minute) but have missed many shots that were the fault of the shooter. With aftermarket triggers (Excluding the ALG, which I have not tried yet, or even seen on the market) I have also not encountered a fancy-trigger that I believe is robust enough to consider using that wasn't also money better spent on an equal cost in ammo and some time on the range learning how to shoot.
SBRs are, for me anyway, about close range and fast shooting. Can they be shot at distance? Certainly. We had a shooter in my 0.5 class last week that went from never having spent any time with the AR FOW to hitting A/C steel at 200 yards with an A1 profile 10.3" barrel, GI trigger, and Aimpoint T-1 (which, according to most of the internet is just physically impossible). I myself have reliably made hits on 8" steel with 11.5" A1-profile barrel and an Aimpoint Comp ML2 with GI ammo (something else the internet says is impossible)
Now to really piss you off. The fancy-trigger is a crutch. I personally believe they have a place in precision shooting, and that some who come from such a professional background or spend a lot of time doing civilian nappy-time shooting get used to that crutch and they need it, or at least want it, all the time. That doesn't mean it's not a crutch.
I also don't like the two-stage for close-range, fast shooting. Because I'm not used to the crutch, I will sometimes bobble the reset when going fast because I'm not resetting the trigger far enough, because I'm used to the GI trigger.
As to my own experience...
*Prior to the 0.5 class last weekend I had been shooting a gun for an article with a Geiselle S3G trigger in it. Since January of this year virtually all of my AR shooting has been with this gun and I'm just over 1400 rounds with it. Besides that the only rifle I've been doing has been a Winchester Model 70 which I took to a 3-day practical rifle class and put about 600 rounds through. Trigger on that frankly rivals the S3G in terms of how easy it breaks. In that 0.5 class last weekend I had occasion to shoot my BCM T&E loaner gun both up close at speed and at 100 yards for zeroing and 200 yards at the A/C steel. My performance in all cases was sub-par. I could not go as fast as I used to, nor was I as precise as I used to be. To be sure, some of this is simply that I've been focusing on handgun shooting in place of carbine this year to date, but some of that is absolutely that I got used to the crutch.
If you're ok with the crutch, and willing to install the crutch on all your guns, and willing to accept that if you need to shoot a GI trigger you may not perform as well due to being spoiled by the crutch, then by all means have at it. If you do shoot a whole slew of triggers and find that your performance is not impeded by going from the fancy-trigger to the GI then you're simply a better shooter than I am. But if that's the case, it begs the question, why would you spend all that money on a crutch you don't actually need?
To each, his own. My 6920 and 6933 have stock triggers. Never had an issue keeping up in classes. Learn where the reset is and go with it.
John_Burns
04-22-12, 10:46
*Prior to the 0.5 class last weekend I had been shooting a gun for an article with a Geiselle S3G trigger in it. Since January of this year virtually all of my AR shooting has been with this gun and I'm just over 1400 rounds with it. Besides that the only rifle I've been doing has been a Winchester Model 70 which I took to a 3-day practical rifle class and put about 600 rounds through. Trigger on that frankly rivals the S3G in terms of how easy it breaks. In that 0.5 class last weekend I had occasion to shoot my BCM T&E loaner gun both up close at speed and at 100 yards for zeroing and 200 yards at the A/C steel. My performance in all cases was sub-par. I could not go as fast as I used to, nor was I as precise as I used to be. To be sure, some of this is simply that I've been focusing on handgun shooting in place of carbine this year to date, but some of that is absolutely that I got used to the crutch.
If you're ok with the crutch, and willing to install the crutch on all your guns, and willing to accept that if you need to shoot a GI trigger you may not perform as well due to being spoiled by the crutch, then by all means have at it. If you do shoot a whole slew of triggers and find that your performance is not impeded by going from the fancy-trigger to the GI then you're simply a better shooter than I am. But if that's the case, it begs the question, why would you spend all that money on a crutch you don't actually need?
I need all the “crutchs” I can get to up my shooting performance.
Rob,
If we take your post and substitute “fancy triggers” for “fancy optics” would you still feel the same?:confused:
I know that if I practice mostly with optics then my performance with iron sights will suffer. I am willing to let my iron sight performance suffer for vastly better shooting I can do with optics.
Triggers fall into the exact same line of thinking. I can hit substantially faster on more challenging shots with a precise trigger and give up nothing when running full out at 5 yds on a full A-zone.
There is no way I am willing to use a poor trigger just to be used to a poor trigger.
We all are victims of our experience, but if I found myself shooting better with the SG3 trigger and found my performance worse with a standard GI trigger then I would stick with the trigger I shot better.
We all are victims of our experience, but if I found myself shooting better with the SG3 trigger and found my performance worse with a standard GI trigger then I would stick with the trigger I shot better.
Re-read what I wrote.
Until I started using the crutch of the trigger I had no complaints about my performance with the stock part. It wasn't until I went BACK to the stock part that I realized how lazy the crutch had let me become.
I have not seen the same thing with optics (RDS, ACOG) as my performance is almost immediately enhanced by the "crutch" but my previous performance with irons did not suffer either.
I think the optics analogy is a red herring, frankly. I can measure my performance with irons, use optics and measure my improved performance there, and then go back to irons and measure my performance and note that it did not slip from where it was previously. My experience with triggers, however, has been that:
Performance with stock part is "10"
Change to aftermarket part
Performance remains "10"
Change back to stock part
Performance with stock part is now "8"
To compare that to optics, notably the RDS
Performance with stock part is "8"
Change to aftermarket part
Performance increases to "10"
Change back to stock part
Performance with stock part is still "8"
Everyone should do these checks. Don't just "feel" the part improves your performance, know it, and measure it. and set performance goals that are realistic to your own needs. If you're measuring groups at 300 yards as your performance goal and you will never have a reason to need that performance at that distance, IMO you're wasting your time at the range. If you have unlimited time and resources, or if you're there for "fun" that's something else entirely.
http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/05/training-balance-and-how-good-is-good.html
http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/06/training-balance-and-how-good-is-good.html
ETA measured performance optic vs. irons
2x2x2 - 2:19 vs. 2:21
1-5 - 5:58 vs. 5:42
9-Hole - 28:19, 28:32
I need all the “crutchs” I can get to up my shooting performance.
I used to think like that. It has not proven to be a valid concept for me. I slip to the level of the crutch, and rise to the level of my own abilities when challenged.
My LMT trigger is very good. I wouldn't know what to do with something better...:)
Failure2Stop
04-22-12, 12:06
I used a SD3G for a while to see how it performed (both in application and durability) compared to stock GI triggers.
It has some very nice things about it, but it is a different animal with a different application than a stock GI single stage trigger. The trigger characteristics do not give it a hard "edge" to the break, which to me feels a lot like a Glock trigger, you just press through the length of travel with constantly increasing pressure. It works well for the blend of shooting technique in gun games. It has a fast reset (compared to other 2-stage triggers), so very fast splits are possible (about as fast for me as a GI single once I was used to it).
What I found out though was that I can get the same performance from a GI trigger in 99% of my shooting. I am not heavily invested in competitions, I shoot them for fun when the schedule allows. The 1% of my shooting that a good 2-stage trigger shines is long-range (past 300 meters). When doing precision shooting at those distances the hard edge and crisp release of the precision oriented 2-stage triggers allows more precise release, and thus better performance. This applies to more than just leather slinged yellow-glasses wearing gravel bellies in retro-bondage jackets.
I decided to stick with standard GI triggers (especially for instructing/demoing) for my serious guns, but I still have a nice 2-stage for certain applications.
It's an SBR, put the money into something you'll really benefit from like training, or even ammo so you can really learn how to run an SBR. If it was a longer gun where precision came into play more, then I would thing Ok.
I gotta agree with Rob and F2S and echo a few things. A couple - three months ago I built a 3 gun specific rifle with a S3G trigger in it. I basically did head to head, pure speed testing with the trigger and noticed that if I shot the S3G trigger too much before the GI type trigger, I started short stroking the GI trigger. Ironically I could not shoot the S3G faster or with any noted improvement in accuracy within close combat distances over the USGI. Fastest splits with the S3G was .11's and fastest with a Colt USGI was .10's. Fast forward a couple - three months and I have been running the 3 gun rifle A LOT. Too darn much. I noted severe issues in my performance with a USGI trigger and I was not performing any better over the USGI triggers. One could argue that I should just run high performance triggers all the time, but I cannot and quite frankly do not want to do that in my working rifles.
I also noted that the ALG trigger which I also have around 2K rounds through it now gives me no improvement over a standard USGI trigger in an up close weapon. Some think I am a hater for a particular brand(s) but I will be the first to say, that Geissele and ALG make the absolute best triggers in their respective classes. Necessary on a non-magnified, non-precision, carbine and up close or even intermediate ranges? Far from it as far as I am concerned, so the cost to performance ratio isn't there for myself.
Robb Jensen
04-22-12, 14:17
For me it the smoothness of a trigger what really matters the SD3G is 3.5lbs but i wish it were 5lbs, the ALG ACT is a smooth 6lbs and feels great. Last week at the NRA Range I was shooting at a Warren target which would expose to me for 2 seconds with my 3gun rifle BCM SS410 18" rifle gas bbl, SJC Titan brake, JP LMOS BCG, using a CAR buffer and spring in a Magpul PRS and using a Geissele SD3G. Optic was my Schmidt & Bender 1.1-4x Short Dot at 1.1x with the illuminator on. I was getting splits between .11 seconds to .125 seconds.
With my 16" BCM BFH LW midlength using a Surefire brake, BCM M16 carrier, H buffer w/Sprinco blue spring and a ALG ACT trigger and using an Aimpoint H1 in a tall LaRue mount. I was getting splits in of .14 seconds to .16 seconds. I may try a standard rate CAR buffer spring and/or a CAR buffer because the gun definitely feels like its cycling slower. It could be in my head because when I'm warmed up and shooting at high rates of speed it seems time slows down and I have a heightened state of awareness.
John_Burns
04-22-12, 19:56
Discussions like this that stay on topic sure are interesting.
I did a little research as some of the opinions contrary to mine come from guys who seem to have a pretty good handle on things.
Found some quotes from the SME sub forum.
From Pat McNamara
Hello LP.
I am running Geissele SSA triggers in all of my ARs. Real bang for the buck in my opinion. I view a good two stage trigger as a 'Battlefield Multiplier'.
A good two stage trigger offers a good shooter the ability to know exactly when the hammer will fall. This is absolutely necessary when having to take a discriminating shot with accuracy. Having to discern and take an accurate mid-range shot with a fighting carbine is not only possible but likely. Hence, battlefield multiplier.
Too light is not the case with an SSA
From Mike Pannone. I trimmed this down as Mike covered a lot of ground in his post.
My overall take on the Stoner platform is relatively simple based on the assumption that all parts are properly fabricated and installed. A good quality barrel that is free-floated, has a properly headspaced bolt and a good quality trigger is the rifle. The rest is operator/personal preference. My preferences are the following for a combat focused rifle:
• Geissele trigger
For a more in depth look into Mike’s thinking on triggers for the AR you can go to this link.
http://www.defensereview.com/the-case-for-match-triggers-in-combatduty-rifles-safety-speed-and-accuracy/
Larry Vickers had this to say:
Most of the AR's I have are fitted with stock triggers- I am just not very picky on my triggers anymore
I do have some fitted with 'enhanced' triggers - and of course on a rifle like an SPR it is a must
So bottom line some of my guns have them but most don't
Cheers
LAV
I notice that most of the guys who have used a good 2 stage in combat (Geissele SSF) seem to have a distinct preference for the 2 Stage in their personal carbines.
If you spend most of your time inside 25 yds and a full A-Zone is your target then the GI trigger has a lot to offer.:D:rolleyes: (just kiddin)
I did a little research as some of the opinions contrary to mine come from guys who seem to have a pretty good handle on things.
For you, the only one that should matter is your own provided it's based on actual experience. I will always take what my target and my own experiences tell me. Most people will source the SME that matches their preconceived notions, not use an SMEs opinion to make their own informed choices.
See my signature line.
John_Burns
04-22-12, 21:06
For you, the only one that should matter is your own provided it's based on actual experience. I will always take what my target and my own experiences tell me. Most people will source the SME that matches their preconceived notions, not use an SMEs opinion to make their own informed choices.
See my signature line.
Well I am working on it.:D (I am slightly over double your aforementioned AR round count year to date)
Shot a few clean 1/2 & 1/2 drills today (modified to half the time and half the rounds) and banged steel out to 700yds with the same carbine.
Of course it had a Geissele DMR trigger set at 2 1/4 lbs first and 1lbs second. Seemed the 2 stage was more of a help than a hindrance.
Do I find solace in the fact that guys who have used a good 2 stage trigger in combat seem to have a real affinity to the design? Well yes I do.
Does the fact that this coincides with my own testing give me make me even happier with my choice of triggers? Well yes it does.
Some might refer to that as a clue and I need all I can find. ;)
Here is a short video showing movers at 280 yds. Target is the 2 inch vital zone at the craw of a turkey. Don't try this with a GI trigger.:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzSXoinj9TA
I am slightly over double your aforementioned AR round count year to date
Yep, it's been a very light carbine year for me. My head finally popped out of my ass and I realized that I was wasting a ton of time and money on a play gun and ignoring the gun that was with me every day. Maybe I should have just put that Vanek in from the beginning and then I wouldn't have to actually try to be good.
Don't try this with a GI trigger.:D
You're joking, right?
TacticalTyler
04-23-12, 07:43
Yep, it's been a very light carbine year for me. My head finally popped out of my ass and I realized that I was wasting a ton of time and money on a play gun and ignoring the gun that was with me every day. Maybe I should have just put that Vanek in from the beginning and then I wouldn't have to actually try to be good.
You're joking, right?
I hope hes joking. American's were shooting turkeys and other animals long before 2 stage triggers and semi automatic rifles lol. At that distance if not further with 1 shot rifles with iron sights.. So if we can do that, then it shouldnt be too hard for a guy to hit a turkey with a USGI trigger at that distance. Im sure he would have hit that turkey with the same rifle and a USGI trigger. Just saying lol:happy:
oldgus3836
04-23-12, 07:45
What is SME
CaptainDooley
04-23-12, 08:01
Subject Matter Expert
What is SME
What is SME
Someone you Must rEspect.
oldgus3836
04-23-12, 10:17
Thanks! Gus
gesundheit
05-02-12, 20:42
So does anyone has knowledge of our SOCOM guys having double-stage triggers on their M4s? I was browsing through Giselle's website and for many of the triggers they mentioned .. "finely-tuned semi-automatic-only version of our full-auto, two stage combat trigger presently used in the U.S. Special Operations Community".
How commonplace are these two stage triggers are within the SOCOM ranks?
sandsunsurf
05-03-12, 13:23
I run a Geissele SSA in my SBR.
The best trigger I have ever used, while a SBR is not really a rifle meant for long range shooting the Geissele SSA is their Semi version of their Military combat trigger the SSF.
Trust me they are a huge upgrade, I can never go back to a standard trigger again
This is exactly what I was going to write... I only have two, one in an SBR, but there are more in my future.
Rob, what I notice about the reset is that it's shorter than the GI, without the noticeable trigger movement (or pop) as the disconnector releases, allowing me to get better control- I've never missed a reset because it doesn't have to move as much as a GI. The only other 2-stage I've used is a RRA, it also doesn't have to move as much for reset, although the trigger itself is "mushier" than the ssa. Maybe some of the other 2-stage triggers might cause the missed reset you mention, but of the OP goes with an SSA it shouldn't be a problem.
I use a Geissele SSA on my SBR as well.
There is so much more technique to nail down before one needs a two stage trigger that it seems a little silly to me to be putting it on a rifle.
My primary observation is that the M40A1 my uncle lent me had a single stage trigger, at about 4 lbs, IIRC.
The standard GI trigger is better than I am, though cleaning up the edges (port and Starboard, NOT the engagement points) and running about 500 rounds through it does do wonders.
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