View Full Version : Need help proving that SBR ownership is legal to TX CLEO
Hello,
I've got a MK18 project all ready to go, fingerprints done, engraved, forms filled out, all I'm waiting on is a CLEO signature. My CLEO has absolutely NO knowledge of NFA weapons or the procedure to procure them. I dropped forms off with him earlier this week and he gave me a call this morning telling me he can't sign the forms because the Form 1 says in the CLEO signoff field that:
I have no information that Possession of the Firearm described in Item 4 on the Front of this Form would place the maker in Violation of State or Local Law.
The problem is that Texas state law says that a rifle with a barrel under 16" is illegal. I know that when you register it as a short-barreled rifle it is allowed, but knowing it isn't going to help me convince me CLEO. Does anyone know where I can find a statute that clearly states that an approved Form 1 renders SBR ownership legal in Texas?
Reagans Rascals
04-19-12, 10:38
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2008/03/texas-tx-what-nfa-firearms-can.html
http://www.texasnfatrust.com/NFA%20Laws%20by%20State.htm
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/class-iii-nfa-sponsored-class-3-weapons/4770-sbr-signature-houston.html
you need to go with a Trust... and bypass that CLEO all together...
mallowpufft
04-19-12, 10:42
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2008/03/texas-tx-what-nfa-firearms-can.html
http://www.texasnfatrust.com/NFA%20Laws%20by%20State.htm
you need to go with a Trust... and bypass that CLEO all together...
This plus eleventy. I just started the trust process because I don't want to deal with CLEO.
It's best to blame my misspelled words on autocorrect.
I understand that the trust is the way to go for a lot of people, but right now I really don't need advice on which route to take, my questions are specifically about CLEO signoffs and legal issues. I've done it before and had zero problems. Quite frankly I don't know anyone I trust enough to start an NFA trust with and the very few people I do know have no interest or have tendencies or legal histories that wouldn't make me feel comfortable with sharing my shit with them.
Anyway, back to my question.
Reagans Rascals
04-19-12, 11:02
I understand that the trust is the way to go for a lot of people, but right now I really don't need advice on which route to take, my questions are specifically about CLEO signoffs and legal issues. I've done it before and had zero problems. Quite frankly I don't know anyone I trust enough to start an NFA trust with and the very few people I do know have no interest or have tendencies or legal histories that wouldn't make me feel comfortable with sharing my shit with them.
Anyway, back to my question.
what are you talking about?
You don't have to start a trust with anyone... its you making it... you choose if you want to add someone to it or not... you don't have to add anyone if you don't want to, you can have it just be in your name, and your name only
Obviously you haven't done it in the same area you are now otherwise that CLEO would have signed off just like he did before, and it seems like he is either incompetent or just flat out lazy and not willing to do his job... either way I don't see you convincing that individual sign it, you need to find someone else.
TriumphRat675
04-19-12, 11:03
Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
...
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
...
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.
Tex. Pen. Code Sec. 46.05 (a)(3), (b).
Read the statute. It is right there.
mallowpufft
04-19-12, 11:18
Since you don't want to go the Trust route try another CLEO-
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
Page 188, question/answer M18
You could probably get some help swaying him or another CLEO if you could find the Texas laws that allow SBRs or get a Texas firearms lawyer to write the letter and state the legality of it.
Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
...
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
...
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.
Tex. Pen. Code Sec. 46.05 (a)(3), (b).
Read the statute. It is right there.
I spoke with him about this and he started explaining the defense to prosecution until finally I said "I understand that I can still be arrested" to which he replied "Okay, I'll get in touch with you."
I already have this weapon engraved with my info and everything, ready to go. If this guy ends up being what holds me up due to him not wanting to sign "just 'cause" I'm going to be irate. I never would have thought in a million years that I'd have to go through this shit with a CLEO in Lubbock, Texas.
Got the situation resolved. Turns out my local Sheriff signs them off as long as you pass a background check. Gonna just go over there and give them a couple copies of the Form 1 instead of waiting around for the police chief to decide when to tell me no.
Thanks guys.
Please make sure you do some research first. I may be off base, since I don't go to CLEO's or anybody else.
If you reside within the city limits, then you must use the Chief of Police. If you live outside of city limits or un-incorporated areas you then go to the sheriff.
Again, I may be wrong about this, but this is how I understand it.
Q: If the chief law enforcement official whose jurisdiction includes the proposed transferee’s residence refuses to sign the “law enforcement certification,” will the signature of an official in another jurisdiction be acceptable?
No. But see “What law enforcement officials’ certifications on an application to transfer or make an NFA weapon are acceptable to ATF?” for the list of acceptable chief law enforcement officers
Got the situation resolved. Turns out my local Sheriff signs them off as long as you pass a background check. Gonna just go over there and give them a couple copies of the Form 1 instead of waiting around for the police chief to decide when to tell me no.
Thanks guys.
mallowpufft
04-19-12, 13:27
Please make sure you do some research first. I may be off base, since I don't go to CLEO's or anybody else.
If you reside within the city limits, then you must use the Chief of Police. If you live outside of city limits or un-incorporated areas you then go to the sheriff.
Again, I may be wrong about this, but this is how I understand it.
Q: If the chief law enforcement official whose jurisdiction includes the proposed transferee’s residence refuses to sign the “law enforcement certification,” will the signature of an official in another jurisdiction be acceptable?
No. But see “What law enforcement officials’ certifications on an application to transfer or make an NFA weapon are acceptable to ATF?” for the list of acceptable chief law enforcement officers
I'm very new to the NFA process and as I said earlier, I'm going the trust route to avoid these issues but if I understand the pdf on the ATF's site (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf) correctly from page 188, question/answer m18 (two answers prior to your post):
"(M18) What law enforcement officials’ certifications on an application to transfer or make an NFA
weapon are acceptable to ATF?
As provided by regulations, certifications by the local chief of police,
sheriff of the county, head of the State
police, or State or local district attorney or prosecutor are acceptable. The
regulations also provide that certifications of other officials are appropriate
if found in a particular case to be acceptable to the Director. Examples of
other officials who have been accepted in specific situations include
State attorneys general and judges of
State courts having authority to conduct jury trials in felony cases.
[27 CFR 479.63 and 479.85]
And question/answer M20: (M20) If the chief law enforcement
official whose jurisdiction includes
the proposed transferee's residence refuses to sign the "law enforcement certification," will the
signature of an official in another
jurisdiction be acceptable?
No. (But see Question M18 for the
list of acceptable chief law enforcement officers.)"
If I wasn't going the trust route I'd contact the ATF and ask for written clarification to make sure I don't have to resubmit paperwork.
Please make sure you do some research first. I may be off base, since I don't go to CLEO's or anybody else.
If you reside within the city limits, then you must use the Chief of Police. If you live outside of city limits or un-incorporated areas you then go to the sheriff.
Again, I may be wrong about this, but this is how I understand it.
Last SBR I did had a Sheriff sign off and everything was gravy. The key point is this:
Q: If the chief law enforcement official whose jurisdiction includes the proposed transferee’s residence refuses to sign the “law enforcement certification,” will the signature of an official in another jurisdiction be acceptable?
No. But see “What law enforcement officials’ certifications on an application to transfer or make an NFA weapon are acceptable to ATF?” for the list of acceptable chief law enforcement officers
He is the Lubbock county Sheriff, thus sheriff of my jurisdiction. The lady at his office knew what each form in my packet was and knew exactly what I was doing, so it's not their first rodeo.
I got my first rimfire can done with Sheriff but I've known him all my life & was not a big deal for me as we got to catch up...having said that, the trust is the waaayyy better route to own class iii items.
Please make sure you do some research first. I may be off base, since I don't go to CLEO's or anybody else.
If you reside within the city limits, then you must use the Chief of Police. If you live outside of city limits or un-incorporated areas you then go to the sheriff.
Again, I may be wrong about this, but this is how I understand it.
Q: If the chief law enforcement official whose jurisdiction includes the proposed transferee’s residence refuses to sign the “law enforcement certification,” will the signature of an official in another jurisdiction be acceptable?
No. But see “What law enforcement officials’ certifications on an application to transfer or make an NFA weapon are acceptable to ATF?” for the list of acceptable chief law enforcement officers
The sheriff is not from another jurisdiction, he is from the same. The sheriff is the CLEO for the entire county, including the incorporated area of the cities within his county.
OP, looks like you solved your problem, if something falls through, don't forget about judges. I have a trust, but guys I know that have went the CLEO route have had better luck with judges around here.
If the city he lives in is in the county the Sheriff has jurisdiction over then the Sheriff can sign as CLEO.
We're cookin' now :D
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8140/201204232004242.jpg
Polymerhead
04-23-12, 20:58
If you reside within the city limits, then you must use the Chief of Police. If you live outside of city limits or un-incorporated areas you then go to the sheriff.
Nah, I'm in city limits and my Sheriff does all my approvals. Never an issue.
What the **** dude!?!?!?!?!?!?
Easy chief, he obviously started with a virgin or pistol lower. Note the lack of a buttstock.
Easy chief, he obviously started with a virgin or pistol lower. Note the lack of a buttstock.
Bingo. Stripped Aero Precision lower with a pistol buffer tube.
Lol I realized that after I posted but didnt edit in time. My bad.
My first form 4 was done by the director of firearms by the GBI. My second was done by the county sheriff even though I lived in the incorporated part of the city. As long as they have jurisdiction over the state, county, or city which you might live, it is acceptable.
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